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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    ZOS finally answered!

    They locked the other thread.

    Sooooooooooo… that's your outcome.

    Of course they did. They need more space for universal auction house threads, and why (Insert Class) needs to be nerfed for PvP reasons.

  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    ZOS finally answered!

    They locked the other thread.

    Sooooooooooo… that's your outcome.

    Of course they did. They need more space for universal auction house threads, and why (Insert Class) needs to be nerfed for PvP reasons.

    They closed it because this is already a thread on the topic and there was no new nuance to that other thread. Although I agree, it's a much more important topic than another dead horse beating, it's still better to have it all collected in one place rather. But it's good to see that other people have not forgotten this issue and care as much as we do.
    @Starlight_Knight Welcome on board! Don't worry, you don't have to read all 81 pages to join the discussion. There has been nothing official other than a non-official talk at a convention that didn't answer any of our concerns but hinted at the intention of opening up stealth to more races. Let's hope they didn't mean "nerf Bosmer so everyone is equal". :D
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    ZOS finally answered!

    They locked the other thread.

    Sooooooooooo… that's your outcome.

    Of course they did. They need more space for universal auction house threads, and why (Insert Class) needs to be nerfed for PvP reasons.

    They closed it because this is already a thread on the topic and there was no new nuance to that other thread. Although I agree, it's a much more important topic than another dead horse beating, it's still better to have it all collected in one place rather. But it's good to see that other people have not forgotten this issue and care as much as we do.
    @Starlight_Knight Welcome on board! Don't worry, you don't have to read all 81 pages to join the discussion. There has been nothing official other than a non-official talk at a convention that didn't answer any of our concerns but hinted at the intention of opening up stealth to more races. Let's hope they didn't mean "nerf Bosmer so everyone is equal". :D

    Yeah. I know, I was being sarcastic. :neutral:

  • CatchMeTrolling
    CatchMeTrolling
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
    Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.
    High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
    Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
    Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
    And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.

    So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.

    There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.

    They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.


    edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.

    Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.

    Let’s see:

    Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
    High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

    Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.

    Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
    Resist Disease 75% – Passive

    Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%

    Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.

    And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.



    I see you have not mastered the art of google-fu.

    First let me repost what I wrote to you in the other thread.

    OK Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.

    (Hopefully I got the order correct.)

    Elder Scrolls 1 Arena

    32306341437_ec7542e397_o.png

    Thieves...hmmm.

    Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall

    32306341037_c33471a676_o.png

    Thieves again...

    Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind

    47168547902_6d95121629_o.png

    Skill Bonuses

    Marksman +15
    Sneak +10
    Light Armor +10
    Alchemy +5
    Acrobatics +5


    Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion

    32306341307_5e668de030_o.png

    Skill Bonuses

    Acrobatics +5
    Alchemy +10
    Alteration +5
    Light Armor +5
    Marksman +10
    Sneak +10


    Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim

    47207195632_c3947870cf_o.jpg

    Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)

    Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
    Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
    Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
    Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
    Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
    Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)

    And I should just as well mention;

    Elder Scrolls Online (original description)

    32310148127_2db10abe41_o.png

    Full manuals can be found here;

    https://manuals.bethsoft.com

    Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth.

    Now your weird scattershot point is what exactly? That some secondary stats change from game to game? Yes, because each game tried to get the overall theme of the race as best they could with the systems they created for the game. But the themes stayed consistent even if the systems to recreate them changed. Now unlike you who just picked skills at random and pretended to make a point. Let's choose two non-wood elf races and see how their skills progressed from Morrowind through Skyrim.

    Morrowind;

    Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor

    High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion

    Oblivion;

    Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor

    High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10

    Skyrim;

    Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)

    High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting

    Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.

    Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere. And Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).

    I don’t think you get the point of —> the devs can do whatever they want with the lore, if you’re going to get mad or annoyed about lore changing then eso and elder scrolls isn’t for you. This isn’t exclusive to this game or dev, Bethesda has done it and done it with Fallout. All they do is change lore and make up something to justify it.

    I never said they aren’t thieves either. I only gave their description. You guys are the ones dismissing my points, I never dismissed a single point, I said you guys are leaving out lore. Sure stealth is a defining trait but so is speed, one got sacrificed for the other.
  • CatchMeTrolling
    CatchMeTrolling
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
    Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.
    High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
    Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
    Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
    And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.

    So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.

    There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.

    They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.


    edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.

    Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.

    Let’s see:

    Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
    High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

    Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.

    Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
    Resist Disease 75% – Passive

    Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%

    Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.

    And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.



    I see you have not mastered the art of google-fu.

    First let me repost what I wrote to you in the other thread.

    OK Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.

    (Hopefully I got the order correct.)

    Elder Scrolls 1 Arena

    32306341437_ec7542e397_o.png

    Thieves...hmmm.

    Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall

    32306341037_c33471a676_o.png

    Thieves again...

    Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind

    47168547902_6d95121629_o.png

    Skill Bonuses

    Marksman +15
    Sneak +10
    Light Armor +10
    Alchemy +5
    Acrobatics +5


    Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion

    32306341307_5e668de030_o.png

    Skill Bonuses

    Acrobatics +5
    Alchemy +10
    Alteration +5
    Light Armor +5
    Marksman +10
    Sneak +10


    Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim

    47207195632_c3947870cf_o.jpg

    Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)

    Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
    Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
    Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
    Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
    Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
    Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)

    And I should just as well mention;

    Elder Scrolls Online (original description)

    32310148127_2db10abe41_o.png

    Full manuals can be found here;

    https://manuals.bethsoft.com

    Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth.

    Now your weird scattershot point is what exactly? That some secondary stats change from game to game? Yes, because each game tried to get the overall theme of the race as best they could with the systems they created for the game. But the themes stayed consistent even if the systems to recreate them changed. Now unlike you who just picked skills at random and pretended to make a point. Let's choose two non-wood elf races and see how their skills progressed from Morrowind through Skyrim.

    Morrowind;

    Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor

    High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion

    Oblivion;

    Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor

    High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10

    Skyrim;

    Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)

    High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting

    Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.

    Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere. And Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).

    I don’t think you get the point of —> the devs can do whatever they want with the lore, if you’re going to get mad or annoyed about lore changing then eso and elder scrolls isn’t for you. This isn’t exclusive to this game or dev, Bethesda has done it and done it with Fallout. All they do is change lore and make up something to justify it.

    I never said they aren’t thieves either. I only gave their description. You guys are the ones dismissing my points, I never dismissed a single point, I said you guys are leaving out lore. Sure stealth is a defining trait but so is speed, one got sacrificed for the other.

    Even if we are counting both stealth and speed as defining traits, stealth detect has nothing to do with either of those.

    Stealth detect in regards to what ? Being detected or doing the detection? Because bosmer are known for being scouts too.

  • Night_Wolf2112
    Night_Wolf2112
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    ^^^ your last sentence needs to be read and focused on by ZoS!
  • CatchMeTrolling
    CatchMeTrolling
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    Points were made, seems my job here is done.

    However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.
  • Sylvermynx
    Sylvermynx
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
    Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.
    High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
    Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
    Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
    And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.

    So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.

    There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.

    They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.


    edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.

    Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.

    Let’s see:

    Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
    High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

    Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.

    Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
    Resist Disease 75% – Passive

    Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%

    Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.

    And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.



    I see you have not mastered the art of google-fu.

    First let me repost what I wrote to you in the other thread.

    OK Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.

    (Hopefully I got the order correct.)

    Elder Scrolls 1 Arena

    32306341437_ec7542e397_o.png

    Thieves...hmmm.

    Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall

    32306341037_c33471a676_o.png

    Thieves again...

    Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind

    47168547902_6d95121629_o.png

    Skill Bonuses

    Marksman +15
    Sneak +10
    Light Armor +10
    Alchemy +5
    Acrobatics +5


    Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion

    32306341307_5e668de030_o.png

    Skill Bonuses

    Acrobatics +5
    Alchemy +10
    Alteration +5
    Light Armor +5
    Marksman +10
    Sneak +10


    Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim

    47207195632_c3947870cf_o.jpg

    Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)

    Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
    Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
    Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
    Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
    Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
    Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)

    And I should just as well mention;

    Elder Scrolls Online (original description)

    32310148127_2db10abe41_o.png

    Full manuals can be found here;

    https://manuals.bethsoft.com

    Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth.

    Now your weird scattershot point is what exactly? That some secondary stats change from game to game? Yes, because each game tried to get the overall theme of the race as best they could with the systems they created for the game. But the themes stayed consistent even if the systems to recreate them changed. Now unlike you who just picked skills at random and pretended to make a point. Let's choose two non-wood elf races and see how their skills progressed from Morrowind through Skyrim.

    Morrowind;

    Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor

    High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion

    Oblivion;

    Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor

    High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10

    Skyrim;

    Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)

    High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting

    Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.

    Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere. And Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).

    I don’t think you get the point of —> the devs can do whatever they want with the lore, if you’re going to get mad or annoyed about lore changing then eso and elder scrolls isn’t for you. This isn’t exclusive to this game or dev, Bethesda has done it and done it with Fallout. All they do is change lore and make up something to justify it.

    Sure, retconning has been going on as long as game companies have existed. This is a somewhat different situation though, since this particular fork of the TES brand is an MMO. The devs are likely doing what they're told in order to keep paychecks landing regularly - but this whole balls-up is an abrogation of TES lore from the word go.

    Where is Bethesda in this? They can't have either rubber stamped it or just ignored it.

    Hallooo - Beth.... you're supposed to have final say on lore. How did you let this one pass?

  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Points were made, seems my job here is done.

    However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.

    What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.

    But sure, whatever.
  • Ogou
    Ogou
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
    Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.
    High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
    Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
    Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
    And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.

    So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.

    There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.

    They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.


    edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.

    Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.

    Let’s see:

    Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
    High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

    Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.

    Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
    Resist Disease 75% – Passive

    Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%

    Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.

    And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.



    I see you have not mastered the art of google-fu.

    First let me repost what I wrote to you in the other thread.

    OK Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.

    (Hopefully I got the order correct.)

    Elder Scrolls 1 Arena

    32306341437_ec7542e397_o.png

    Thieves...hmmm.

    Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall

    32306341037_c33471a676_o.png

    Thieves again...

    Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind

    47168547902_6d95121629_o.png

    Skill Bonuses

    Marksman +15
    Sneak +10
    Light Armor +10
    Alchemy +5
    Acrobatics +5


    Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion

    32306341307_5e668de030_o.png

    Skill Bonuses

    Acrobatics +5
    Alchemy +10
    Alteration +5
    Light Armor +5
    Marksman +10
    Sneak +10


    Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim

    47207195632_c3947870cf_o.jpg

    Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)

    Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
    Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
    Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
    Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
    Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
    Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)

    And I should just as well mention;

    Elder Scrolls Online (original description)

    32310148127_2db10abe41_o.png

    Full manuals can be found here;

    https://manuals.bethsoft.com

    Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth.

    Now your weird scattershot point is what exactly? That some secondary stats change from game to game? Yes, because each game tried to get the overall theme of the race as best they could with the systems they created for the game. But the themes stayed consistent even if the systems to recreate them changed. Now unlike you who just picked skills at random and pretended to make a point. Let's choose two non-wood elf races and see how their skills progressed from Morrowind through Skyrim.

    Morrowind;

    Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor

    High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion

    Oblivion;

    Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor

    High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10

    Skyrim;

    Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)

    High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting

    Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.

    Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere. And Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).

    I don’t think you get the point of —> the devs can do whatever they want with the lore, if you’re going to get mad or annoyed about lore changing then eso and elder scrolls isn’t for you. This isn’t exclusive to this game or dev, Bethesda has done it and done it with Fallout. All they do is change lore and make up something to justify it.

    I never said they aren’t thieves either. I only gave their description. You guys are the ones dismissing my points, I never dismissed a single point, I said you guys are leaving out lore. Sure stealth is a defining trait but so is speed, one got sacrificed for the other.

    Even if we are counting both stealth and speed as defining traits, stealth detect has nothing to do with either of those.

    Stealth detect in regards to what ? Being detected or doing the detection? Because bosmer are known for being scouts too.

    Beyond that, detecting others in stealth is worthless outside of PvP, so that part of the passive is useless for many players. Bosmer can't be scouts if there's nothing for them to scout (stealthed enemies to reveal)

    But that's the whole reason why you have the second part of the passive, isn't it?
  • CatchMeTrolling
    CatchMeTrolling
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Points were made, seems my job here is done.

    However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.

    What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.

    But sure, whatever.

    making things either pointless, niche or valuable



    Edited by CatchMeTrolling on June 19, 2019 12:42AM
  • Sylvermynx
    Sylvermynx
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    Orcs. Ugh. Don't DO orcs. I have Redguards. They work fine. So yeah, not BIS.... good LORD where do these devs get this crap?
  • Jaraal
    Jaraal
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    The speed/roll combo might be ok in some situations IF you don't already have the passive that gives you a speed boost anyway. But DON"T USE A ROLL TO GET EXTRA ARMOR PEN IN A TRIAL OR DUNGEON. The roll should be used for getting out of danger not as a dps boost as it is a MAJOR stamina drain.

    I would be interested to see a race between two Bosmer, both with Hunter's Eye, no CP buffs, and both with identical stamina pools. On the starting gun, one Bosmer rolls and sprints for 5 seconds (one second of the six second 10% speed buff is spent rolling), rolls, sprints, etc...... while the other Bosmer just mashes the sprint button and runs in a straight line.

    Care to guess which one will get the farthest, and which one will run out of stamina first?
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    The speed/roll combo might be ok in some situations IF you don't already have the passive that gives you a speed boost anyway. But DON"T USE A ROLL TO GET EXTRA ARMOR PEN IN A TRIAL OR DUNGEON. The roll should be used for getting out of danger not as a dps boost as it is a MAJOR stamina drain.

    I would be interested to see a race between two Bosmer, both with Hunter's Eye, no CP buffs, and both with identical stamina pools. On the starting gun, one Bosmer rolls and sprints for 5 seconds (one second of the six second 10% speed buff is spent rolling), rolls, sprints, etc...... while the other Bosmer just mashes the sprint button and runs in a straight line.

    Care to guess which one will get the farthest, and which one will run out of stamina first?

    You know, that is a fair point. I don't know if it stacks.
    Edited by BlueRaven on June 19, 2019 1:17AM
  • Jaraal
    Jaraal
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    The speed/roll combo might be ok in some situations IF you don't already have the passive that gives you a speed boost anyway. But DON"T USE A ROLL TO GET EXTRA ARMOR PEN IN A TRIAL OR DUNGEON. The roll should be used for getting out of danger not as a dps boost as it is a MAJOR stamina drain.

    I would be interested to see a race between two Bosmer, both with Hunter's Eye, no CP buffs, and both with identical stamina pools. On the starting gun, one Bosmer rolls and sprints for 5 seconds (one second of the six second 10% speed buff is spent rolling), rolls, sprints, etc...... while the other Bosmer just mashes the sprint button and runs in a straight line.

    Care to guess which one will get the farthest, and which one will run out of stamina first?

    You know, that is a fair point. I don't know if it stacks.

    Also, how about a test between two Bosmer on a test dummy. One Bosmer stands there and spams light attack until he runs out of stamina, and the other one rolls, runs back to the dummy, and spams light attack until the pen buff wears off, rolls away, then comes back to the dummy and spams light attack, etc.

    Guess who's going to do the most damage? The guy fighting non-stop, or the guy rolling around doing zero damage to gain 1500 penetration bonus for the remaining 4 or 5 seconds?
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
    Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.
    High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
    Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
    Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
    And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.

    So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.

    There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.

    They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.


    edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.

    Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.

    Let’s see:

    Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
    High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

    Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.

    Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
    Resist Disease 75% – Passive

    Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%

    Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.

    And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.



    I see you have not mastered the art of google-fu.

    First let me repost what I wrote to you in the other thread.

    OK Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.

    (Hopefully I got the order correct.)

    Elder Scrolls 1 Arena

    32306341437_ec7542e397_o.png

    Thieves...hmmm.

    Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall

    32306341037_c33471a676_o.png

    Thieves again...

    Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind

    47168547902_6d95121629_o.png

    Skill Bonuses

    Marksman +15
    Sneak +10
    Light Armor +10
    Alchemy +5
    Acrobatics +5


    Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion

    32306341307_5e668de030_o.png

    Skill Bonuses

    Acrobatics +5
    Alchemy +10
    Alteration +5
    Light Armor +5
    Marksman +10
    Sneak +10


    Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim

    47207195632_c3947870cf_o.jpg

    Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)

    Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
    Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
    Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
    Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
    Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
    Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)

    And I should just as well mention;

    Elder Scrolls Online (original description)

    32310148127_2db10abe41_o.png

    Full manuals can be found here;

    https://manuals.bethsoft.com

    Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth.

    Now your weird scattershot point is what exactly? That some secondary stats change from game to game? Yes, because each game tried to get the overall theme of the race as best they could with the systems they created for the game. But the themes stayed consistent even if the systems to recreate them changed. Now unlike you who just picked skills at random and pretended to make a point. Let's choose two non-wood elf races and see how their skills progressed from Morrowind through Skyrim.

    Morrowind;

    Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor

    High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion

    Oblivion;

    Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor

    High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10

    Skyrim;

    Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)

    High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting

    Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.

    Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere. And Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).

    I don’t think you get the point of —> the devs can do whatever they want with the lore, if you’re going to get mad or annoyed about lore changing then eso and elder scrolls isn’t for you. This isn’t exclusive to this game or dev, Bethesda has done it and done it with Fallout. All they do is change lore and make up something to justify it.

    I never said they aren’t thieves either. I only gave their description. You guys are the ones dismissing my points, I never dismissed a single point, I said you guys are leaving out lore. Sure stealth is a defining trait but so is speed, one got sacrificed for the other.

    Even if we are counting both stealth and speed as defining traits, stealth detect has nothing to do with either of those.

    Stealth detect in regards to what ? Being detected or doing the detection? Because bosmer are known for being scouts too.

    Beyond that, detecting others in stealth is worthless outside of PvP, so that part of the passive is useless for many players. Bosmer can't be scouts if there's nothing for them to scout (stealthed enemies to reveal)

    But that's the whole reason why you have the second part of the passive, isn't it?

    Is it? Armor Pen is a PvP stat. Normal PvE players should be armor pen capped. Having "Bonus" armor pen is not needed in trials unless you have a very bad build.

    The speed/roll combo might be ok in some situations IF you don't already have the passive that gives you a speed boost anyway. But DON"T USE A ROLL TO GET EXTRA ARMOR PEN IN A TRIAL OR DUNGEON. The roll should be used for getting out of danger not as a dps boost as it is a MAJOR stamina drain.

    Here is what Alcast says about PvE Stamina races.

    Stamina Damage Dealer

    Best choice: Orc, Redguard, Dark Elf, Kahjiit

    As a stamina damage dealer Orcs have the best stats, followed up by races like Redguards, Dark Elves and Khajiits. All are viable choices, so you can pick whichever race you like the most.


    https://alcasthq.com/eso-race-guide-elder-scrolls-online/

    Notice Wood Elves are not mentioned because their stats are not meant for PvE.

    In fact in the Tank, Healer, Magicka, and Stamina dps race suggestions for PvE, Wood Elf is not mentioned as a choice for any of them.

    While I agree with the points you are making, I am pretty convinced that Alcast just forgot to add Woodelfs initially and didn't bother to add it since. There are plenty of things he never updated in his builds, which bother me every time I come across them.
    As an example, take this *** joke from his page. "Bosmer racial passives have a strong focus on stealth based gameplay style." I wonder what game he is playing.
    Or another example, he updates a build to recommend Tzogvin's, but then keeps the Psijic skill for Minor Force in his bar and talks about Rearming trap when explaining the rotation.
    Not to bash on him, it's good he updates things at all and makes comprehensive builds that go into so much detail.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Sylvermynx
    Sylvermynx
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
    Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.
    High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
    Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
    Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
    And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.

    So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.

    There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.

    They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.


    edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.

    Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.

    Let’s see:

    Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
    High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

    Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.

    Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
    Resist Disease 75% – Passive

    Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%

    Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.

    And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.



    I see you have not mastered the art of google-fu.

    First let me repost what I wrote to you in the other thread.

    OK Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.

    (Hopefully I got the order correct.)

    Elder Scrolls 1 Arena

    32306341437_ec7542e397_o.png

    Thieves...hmmm.

    Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall

    32306341037_c33471a676_o.png

    Thieves again...

    Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind

    47168547902_6d95121629_o.png

    Skill Bonuses

    Marksman +15
    Sneak +10
    Light Armor +10
    Alchemy +5
    Acrobatics +5


    Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion

    32306341307_5e668de030_o.png

    Skill Bonuses

    Acrobatics +5
    Alchemy +10
    Alteration +5
    Light Armor +5
    Marksman +10
    Sneak +10


    Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim

    47207195632_c3947870cf_o.jpg

    Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)

    Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
    Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
    Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
    Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
    Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
    Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)

    And I should just as well mention;

    Elder Scrolls Online (original description)

    32310148127_2db10abe41_o.png

    Full manuals can be found here;

    https://manuals.bethsoft.com

    Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth.

    Now your weird scattershot point is what exactly? That some secondary stats change from game to game? Yes, because each game tried to get the overall theme of the race as best they could with the systems they created for the game. But the themes stayed consistent even if the systems to recreate them changed. Now unlike you who just picked skills at random and pretended to make a point. Let's choose two non-wood elf races and see how their skills progressed from Morrowind through Skyrim.

    Morrowind;

    Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor

    High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion

    Oblivion;

    Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor

    High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10

    Skyrim;

    Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)

    High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting

    Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.

    Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere. And Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).

    I don’t think you get the point of —> the devs can do whatever they want with the lore, if you’re going to get mad or annoyed about lore changing then eso and elder scrolls isn’t for you. This isn’t exclusive to this game or dev, Bethesda has done it and done it with Fallout. All they do is change lore and make up something to justify it.

    I never said they aren’t thieves either. I only gave their description. You guys are the ones dismissing my points, I never dismissed a single point, I said you guys are leaving out lore. Sure stealth is a defining trait but so is speed, one got sacrificed for the other.

    Even if we are counting both stealth and speed as defining traits, stealth detect has nothing to do with either of those.

    Stealth detect in regards to what ? Being detected or doing the detection? Because bosmer are known for being scouts too.

    Beyond that, detecting others in stealth is worthless outside of PvP, so that part of the passive is useless for many players. Bosmer can't be scouts if there's nothing for them to scout (stealthed enemies to reveal)

    But that's the whole reason why you have the second part of the passive, isn't it?

    Is it? Armor Pen is a PvP stat. Normal PvE players should be armor pen capped. Having "Bonus" armor pen is not needed in trials unless you have a very bad build.

    The speed/roll combo might be ok in some situations IF you don't already have the passive that gives you a speed boost anyway. But DON"T USE A ROLL TO GET EXTRA ARMOR PEN IN A TRIAL OR DUNGEON. The roll should be used for getting out of danger not as a dps boost as it is a MAJOR stamina drain.

    Here is what Alcast says about PvE Stamina races.

    Stamina Damage Dealer

    Best choice: Orc, Redguard, Dark Elf, Kahjiit

    As a stamina damage dealer Orcs have the best stats, followed up by races like Redguards, Dark Elves and Khajiits. All are viable choices, so you can pick whichever race you like the most.


    https://alcasthq.com/eso-race-guide-elder-scrolls-online/

    Notice Wood Elves are not mentioned because their stats are not meant for PvE.

    In fact in the Tank, Healer, Magicka, and Stamina dps race suggestions for PvE, Wood Elf is not mentioned as a choice for any of them.

    While I agree with the points you are making, I am pretty convinced that Alcast just forgot to add Woodelfs initially and didn't bother to add it since. There are plenty of things he never updated in his builds, which bother me every time I come across them.
    As an example, take this *** joke from his page. "Bosmer racial passives have a strong focus on stealth based gameplay style." I wonder what game he is playing.
    Or another example, he updates a build to recommend Tzogvin's, but then keeps the Psijic skill for Minor Force in his bar and talks about Rearming trap when explaining the rotation.
    Not to bash on him, it's good he updates things at all and makes comprehensive builds that go into so much detail.

    Valid observations. I am not going to argue with any of it. But really I don't know of a better site to get info either.

    I had a really long day, (6 hours of driving through extremely heavy rains) and I had 45+ email notifications waiting for me from this thread alone. I don't really have the energy for this right now. I am going to go play easy mode skyrim with a bosmer that has proper racials, until I just fall asleep completely.

    Blue.... pretty sure you will check in here a few times a day. Turn off that email notification spam. You don't need it. Enjoy that real bosmer gameplay, and then get some sleep. <3
  • CatchMeTrolling
    CatchMeTrolling
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    We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
    Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.
    High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
    Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
    Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
    And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.

    So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.

    There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.

    They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.


    edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.

    Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.

    Let’s see:

    Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
    High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

    Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.

    Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
    Resist Disease 75% – Passive

    Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%

    Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.

    And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.



    NO, you're ignoring it because it completely negates your position.

    What has never changed from game to game is the central role of the race.

    Orcs have NEVER been particularly magical.
    Bretons have NEVER been particularly warrior like.

    And this can be done for each and every race.

    So, answer or acknowledge that you are wrong: to what thief ability do Bosmeri have a bonus now?

    Thanks for showing your bias. Zos should rightfully ignore you guys.

    In every game that had racial bonuses to stats, Bosmer had THE MOST bonuses to stealth/rogue skills. In only one case were Khajiit tied, the remainder they had less. Once racial ability scores get factored in, Bosmer pull out ahead completely. So how is it 'bias' to expect that this core part of the racial identity be preserved? If that's what 'bias' means to you, that I want the race that were the best thieves from Morrowind through the first 5 years of ESO to still have the advantages to thieving that they have always had, then yeah, sure, I'm biased as hell. Note: this isn't with a new game. The new game was ESO 5 years ago, this is a patch to an old game, and we lost a key component of our racial identity. Why is it so hard for you to admit, "yeah, that's true, BUT..." You don't do that, you don't even go part way and say, "well, that may be true, BUT..."

    You later go on to say (and this is a paraphrase), that it's their game and the devs can do whatever the heck they want. So, I'm assuming that means you would be 100% ok with them saying, "Look, we have Redguards who are a proud warrior race, and Nords who are a proud warrior race, and Orcs who are a proud warrior race, and that just too much of the same thing. So we're going to make Orcs pretty little butterfly-winged pixies who heal people with faerie dust from now on." Since it's their game and all, that's just peachy, right?

    And still the question remains: to what thief ability do Bosmeri have a bonus now?

    Edit to add:
    Scout class generally gets a bonus to stealth, no bonus to detection. There has never been a detection skill, and so never any bonus to a non-existent skill. Every other class recommendation for Bosmer are those that use stealth. Consistently.

    You read but you don’t comprehend. That’s what happens when you’re hellbent on misunderstanding someone just to get your point across.

  • CatchMeTrolling
    CatchMeTrolling
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Points were made, seems my job here is done.

    However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.

    What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.

    But sure, whatever.

    making things either pointless, niche or valuable



    Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?

    Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.

    There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.

  • Sylvermynx
    Sylvermynx
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Points were made, seems my job here is done.

    However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.

    What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.

    But sure, whatever.

    making things either pointless, niche or valuable



    Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?

    Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.

    There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.

    Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?

    You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....
    Edited by Sylvermynx on June 19, 2019 4:00AM
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    TAMRIEL OUTLAW REFUGE CENSUS: Alliances and Chapters without Elsweyr
    I went through the base game zones and a selection of DLC/chapter zones and counted the number of members of each race to develop a criminal statistic. If a character there was not a criminal nor affiliated with them, they wouldn't be counted. Otherwise when in doubt, I would count them.
    To avoid overrepresentation these numbers have been taken by not counting Bretons in Breton territory, not counting Redguards in Redguard territory etc. For the purpose of the census, I decided that Bangkorai is Breton territory, because the outlaw refuge is in Evermore, which is still Breton territory.
    Overall:
    Altmer 17
    Argonian 19
    Breton 13
    Bosmer: 12
    Dunmer 12
    Imperial 2
    Khajiit 20+1
    Nord: 17
    Orc: 20
    Redguard 24+1

    I certainly did not expect so few Imperials even though I expected fewer of them than other races, but I was also having difficulties telling tanned Bretons, Imperials and Redguards apart. Usually the name would give it away, but it's possible some Bretons/Redguards were actually Imperials. Still, seeing so many more Altmer than Dunmer and Bosmer was a surprise to be sure. Orcs, not as much. Although they aren't very sneaky, they are known to be bandits.
    Here is the data broken down into alliances.
    Outlaw Refuge census part 1 DC territory + Wrothgar:
    Altmer: 4
    Argonian: 5
    Breton: 4 + 1 person pretending not to be an undercover guard
    Bosmer: 5
    Dunmer: 2
    Imperial 2
    Khajiit: 6 + 1 woman attracted to criminals and villains
    Nord: 4
    Orcs: 11
    Redguard: 11 + 1 guy who hangs out in the outlaw refuge but seems to hate criminals

    It comes as no surprise that DC races are overrepresented in DC zones, although I had expected that not to be the case with the way I am counting. That's why I decided to note the results of each alliance separately as well.

    Part 2 AD + Summerset (Outlaw Refuge and Mother's Den)
    Altmer: 10
    Argonian: 4
    Breton: 4
    Bosmer: 5 + one guy studying criminals with a very controversial theory
    Dunmer:4
    Imperial: 0
    Khajiit: 10
    Nord: 5
    Orc: 5
    Redguard: 7

    I am very surprised that even when not counting the Bosmer in their home zones, there weren't a whole lot of them around. I am also surprised how many Redguards are criminals. So far they seem disproportionally criminal.
    On the character I did the census on, I hadn't completed the quest of Velyn Harbor. It's possible that a lot of NPCs are missing there, because it felt rather empty.

    Part 3 EP + Vvardenfell

    Altmer: 3
    Argonian: 10
    Breton: 5
    Bosmer: 2
    Dunmer: 6
    Imperial: 0
    Khajiit: 4
    Nord: 8
    Orc: 4
    Redguard: 6

    As I suspected, Redguards are still quite criminal even outside their home territories. Curious.

    As it turns out, overrepresentation still happens, but it is tied to alliances more than each race individually.
    The census probably needs to be redone, but for now what can be done with the data is take out the races belonging to the alliance and check out those results.

    Corrected:
    Altmer 7
    Argonian 9
    Breton 9
    Bosmer 7
    Dunmer 6
    Imperial 2
    Khajiit: 10
    Nord 9
    Orc 9
    Redguard 13

    As we can see, Redguards are still strangely many, but this time Bosmer, while still behind, are closer to the rest than before. This data suggests that ZOS is probably trying to present a more well-mixed selection of characters to the player than sticking to stereotypes. Having almost or more than twice as many Redguards be criminals than 4 of the 9 other races have is a bit weird though, considering they aren't known to be faced with predjudice or notoriously criminal. Who would have thought?

    I can't comment on redguard's affinity to crime, but your post inspired me to check how many bosmers are in major trading spots, which I periodically visit in search of cheap mats and had an impression that there are too little to much of wood elves:

    Alik'r, Sentinel - Uurwaerion of 5 traders
    Auridon, Skywatch - Cerweriell of 5 traders
    Bangkorai, Evermore - Kaale of 5 traders
    Clockwork City, Brass Fortress - no bosmers of 6 traders
    Coldharbour, Hollow City - Nistyniel of 4 traders
    Craglorn, Belkarth - sweet Donnaelain of 7 traders
    Deshaan, Mournhold - Endoriell of 7 traders
    Eastmarch, Windhelm - Celorien of 5 traders
    Elsweyr, Rimmen - Maelanrith of 6 traders
    Glenumbra, Daggerfall - Faedre of 5 traders
    Grahtwood, Elden Root - Iannianith of 7 traders
    Greenshade, Marbruk - Hasiwen of 5 traders
    Hew's Bane, Abah's Landing - Gathewen of 6 traders
    Malabal Tor, Baandari Post - Nindenel of 5 traders
    Murkmire, Lilmoth - Thaloril of 6 traders
    Reaper's March, Rawl'kha - Canda of 5 traders
    Rivenspire, Shornhelm - Fernidela of 5 traders
    Shadowfen, Stormhold - Emuin of 5 traders
    Stonefalls, Ebonheart - Gananith of 5 traders
    Stormhaven, Wayrest - Aerchith of 7 traders
    Summerset, Alinor - Rialilrin of 6 traders
    The Rift, Riften - Eralian of 6 traders
    Vvardenfell, Vivec - Lorthodaer of 6 traders
    Wrothgar, Orsinium - Lianorien of 6 traders

    Conclusions of all this "useful analysis" :)

    1. There are 23 bosmers from 140 major trading places, which is 16.4% from expected 11% distribution (Imperials are personas non-grata obviously due to ESO's political situation)
    2. While other races are not evenly distributed in trading, with dunmers, altmers, redguards, orcs, khajiits, argonians widely presented and nords and bretons nearly non-existent, still, only bosmers hold spot in EVERY big city with exception of CWC, where their place was taken by factotum
    3. ALL bosmer traders are female

    So wherever you go for shopping without visiting some backwater outlet, you will always meet smol girl with cheerful, pretentious or irked attitude and cockney accent. Combine this with "BiS for cutiness" reputation and you may say that bosmers have taken imperials place as best traders and middlemans.

    Overall, ESO's bosmer looks like unique enough race with skill-demanding passives, but pay-off with adorable height and classical "elven" appearance.What this has to do with original lore, where bosmers had specific "squirrel" looks, questionable negotiation abilities, but great affinity for thievery and archery - idk.
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