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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.
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CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Points were made, seems my job here is done.
However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.
What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.
But sure, whatever.
making things either pointless, niche or valuable
Edited by CatchMeTrolling on June 19, 2019 12:42AM0 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Points were made, seems my job here is done.
However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.
What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.
But sure, whatever.
making things either pointless, niche or valuable
Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?6 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭JayAstrophel wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »JayAstrophel wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »
Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.
So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.
There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.
They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.
edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.
Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.
Let’s see:
Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant
Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.
Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
Resist Disease 75% – Passive
Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%
Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.
And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.
I see you have not mastered the art of google-fu.
First let me repost what I wrote to you in the other thread.
OK Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.
(Hopefully I got the order correct.)
Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
Thieves...hmmm.
Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
Thieves again...
Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
Skill Bonuses
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion
Skill Bonuses
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim
Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)
Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)
And I should just as well mention;
Elder Scrolls Online (original description)
Full manuals can be found here;
https://manuals.bethsoft.com
Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth.
Now your weird scattershot point is what exactly? That some secondary stats change from game to game? Yes, because each game tried to get the overall theme of the race as best they could with the systems they created for the game. But the themes stayed consistent even if the systems to recreate them changed. Now unlike you who just picked skills at random and pretended to make a point. Let's choose two non-wood elf races and see how their skills progressed from Morrowind through Skyrim.
Morrowind;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor
High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion
Oblivion;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor
High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10
Skyrim;
Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)
High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere. And Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).
I don’t think you get the point of —> the devs can do whatever they want with the lore, if you’re going to get mad or annoyed about lore changing then eso and elder scrolls isn’t for you. This isn’t exclusive to this game or dev, Bethesda has done it and done it with Fallout. All they do is change lore and make up something to justify it.
I never said they aren’t thieves either. I only gave their description. You guys are the ones dismissing my points, I never dismissed a single point, I said you guys are leaving out lore. Sure stealth is a defining trait but so is speed, one got sacrificed for the other.
Even if we are counting both stealth and speed as defining traits, stealth detect has nothing to do with either of those.
Stealth detect in regards to what ? Being detected or doing the detection? Because bosmer are known for being scouts too.
Beyond that, detecting others in stealth is worthless outside of PvP, so that part of the passive is useless for many players. Bosmer can't be scouts if there's nothing for them to scout (stealthed enemies to reveal)
But that's the whole reason why you have the second part of the passive, isn't it?
Is it? Armor Pen is a PvP stat. Normal PvE players should be armor pen capped. Having "Bonus" armor pen is not needed in trials unless you have a very bad build.
The speed/roll combo might be ok in some situations IF you don't already have the passive that gives you a speed boost anyway. But DON"T USE A ROLL TO GET EXTRA ARMOR PEN IN A TRIAL OR DUNGEON. The roll should be used for getting out of danger not as a dps boost as it is a MAJOR stamina drain.
Here is what Alcast says about PvE Stamina races.
Stamina Damage Dealer
Best choice: Orc, Redguard, Dark Elf, Kahjiit
As a stamina damage dealer Orcs have the best stats, followed up by races like Redguards, Dark Elves and Khajiits. All are viable choices, so you can pick whichever race you like the most.
https://alcasthq.com/eso-race-guide-elder-scrolls-online/
Notice Wood Elves are not mentioned because their stats are not meant for PvE.
In fact in the Tank, Healer, Magicka, and Stamina dps race suggestions for PvE, Wood Elf is not mentioned as a choice for any of them.
6 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Orcs. Ugh. Don't DO orcs. I have Redguards. They work fine. So yeah, not BIS.... good LORD where do these devs get this crap?3 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The speed/roll combo might be ok in some situations IF you don't already have the passive that gives you a speed boost anyway. But DON"T USE A ROLL TO GET EXTRA ARMOR PEN IN A TRIAL OR DUNGEON. The roll should be used for getting out of danger not as a dps boost as it is a MAJOR stamina drain.
I would be interested to see a race between two Bosmer, both with Hunter's Eye, no CP buffs, and both with identical stamina pools. On the starting gun, one Bosmer rolls and sprints for 5 seconds (one second of the six second 10% speed buff is spent rolling), rolls, sprints, etc...... while the other Bosmer just mashes the sprint button and runs in a straight line.
Care to guess which one will get the farthest, and which one will run out of stamina first?3 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The speed/roll combo might be ok in some situations IF you don't already have the passive that gives you a speed boost anyway. But DON"T USE A ROLL TO GET EXTRA ARMOR PEN IN A TRIAL OR DUNGEON. The roll should be used for getting out of danger not as a dps boost as it is a MAJOR stamina drain.
I would be interested to see a race between two Bosmer, both with Hunter's Eye, no CP buffs, and both with identical stamina pools. On the starting gun, one Bosmer rolls and sprints for 5 seconds (one second of the six second 10% speed buff is spent rolling), rolls, sprints, etc...... while the other Bosmer just mashes the sprint button and runs in a straight line.
Care to guess which one will get the farthest, and which one will run out of stamina first?
You know, that is a fair point. I don't know if it stacks.Edited by BlueRaven on June 19, 2019 1:17AM0 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The speed/roll combo might be ok in some situations IF you don't already have the passive that gives you a speed boost anyway. But DON"T USE A ROLL TO GET EXTRA ARMOR PEN IN A TRIAL OR DUNGEON. The roll should be used for getting out of danger not as a dps boost as it is a MAJOR stamina drain.
I would be interested to see a race between two Bosmer, both with Hunter's Eye, no CP buffs, and both with identical stamina pools. On the starting gun, one Bosmer rolls and sprints for 5 seconds (one second of the six second 10% speed buff is spent rolling), rolls, sprints, etc...... while the other Bosmer just mashes the sprint button and runs in a straight line.
Care to guess which one will get the farthest, and which one will run out of stamina first?
You know, that is a fair point. I don't know if it stacks.
Also, how about a test between two Bosmer on a test dummy. One Bosmer stands there and spams light attack until he runs out of stamina, and the other one rolls, runs back to the dummy, and spams light attack until the pen buff wears off, rolls away, then comes back to the dummy and spams light attack, etc.
Guess who's going to do the most damage? The guy fighting non-stop, or the guy rolling around doing zero damage to gain 1500 penetration bonus for the remaining 4 or 5 seconds?
4 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭JayAstrophel wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »JayAstrophel wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »
Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.
So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.
There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.
They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.
edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.
Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.
Let’s see:
Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant
Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.
Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
Resist Disease 75% – Passive
Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%
Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.
And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.
I see you have not mastered the art of google-fu.
First let me repost what I wrote to you in the other thread.
OK Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.
(Hopefully I got the order correct.)
Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
Thieves...hmmm.
Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
Thieves again...
Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
Skill Bonuses
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion
Skill Bonuses
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim
Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)
Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)
And I should just as well mention;
Elder Scrolls Online (original description)
Full manuals can be found here;
https://manuals.bethsoft.com
Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth.
Now your weird scattershot point is what exactly? That some secondary stats change from game to game? Yes, because each game tried to get the overall theme of the race as best they could with the systems they created for the game. But the themes stayed consistent even if the systems to recreate them changed. Now unlike you who just picked skills at random and pretended to make a point. Let's choose two non-wood elf races and see how their skills progressed from Morrowind through Skyrim.
Morrowind;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor
High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion
Oblivion;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor
High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10
Skyrim;
Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)
High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere. And Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).
I don’t think you get the point of —> the devs can do whatever they want with the lore, if you’re going to get mad or annoyed about lore changing then eso and elder scrolls isn’t for you. This isn’t exclusive to this game or dev, Bethesda has done it and done it with Fallout. All they do is change lore and make up something to justify it.
I never said they aren’t thieves either. I only gave their description. You guys are the ones dismissing my points, I never dismissed a single point, I said you guys are leaving out lore. Sure stealth is a defining trait but so is speed, one got sacrificed for the other.
Even if we are counting both stealth and speed as defining traits, stealth detect has nothing to do with either of those.
Stealth detect in regards to what ? Being detected or doing the detection? Because bosmer are known for being scouts too.
Beyond that, detecting others in stealth is worthless outside of PvP, so that part of the passive is useless for many players. Bosmer can't be scouts if there's nothing for them to scout (stealthed enemies to reveal)
But that's the whole reason why you have the second part of the passive, isn't it?
Is it? Armor Pen is a PvP stat. Normal PvE players should be armor pen capped. Having "Bonus" armor pen is not needed in trials unless you have a very bad build.
The speed/roll combo might be ok in some situations IF you don't already have the passive that gives you a speed boost anyway. But DON"T USE A ROLL TO GET EXTRA ARMOR PEN IN A TRIAL OR DUNGEON. The roll should be used for getting out of danger not as a dps boost as it is a MAJOR stamina drain.
Here is what Alcast says about PvE Stamina races.
Stamina Damage Dealer
Best choice: Orc, Redguard, Dark Elf, Kahjiit
As a stamina damage dealer Orcs have the best stats, followed up by races like Redguards, Dark Elves and Khajiits. All are viable choices, so you can pick whichever race you like the most.
https://alcasthq.com/eso-race-guide-elder-scrolls-online/
Notice Wood Elves are not mentioned because their stats are not meant for PvE.
In fact in the Tank, Healer, Magicka, and Stamina dps race suggestions for PvE, Wood Elf is not mentioned as a choice for any of them.
While I agree with the points you are making, I am pretty convinced that Alcast just forgot to add Woodelfs initially and didn't bother to add it since. There are plenty of things he never updated in his builds, which bother me every time I come across them.
As an example, take this *** joke from his page. "Bosmer racial passives have a strong focus on stealth based gameplay style." I wonder what game he is playing.
Or another example, he updates a build to recommend Tzogvin's, but then keeps the Psijic skill for Minor Force in his bar and talks about Rearming trap when explaining the rotation.
Not to bash on him, it's good he updates things at all and makes comprehensive builds that go into so much detail.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.2 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭JayAstrophel wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »JayAstrophel wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »
Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.
So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.
There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.
They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.
edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.
Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.
Let’s see:
Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant
Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.
Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
Resist Disease 75% – Passive
Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%
Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.
And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.
I see you have not mastered the art of google-fu.
First let me repost what I wrote to you in the other thread.
OK Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.
(Hopefully I got the order correct.)
Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
Thieves...hmmm.
Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
Thieves again...
Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
Skill Bonuses
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion
Skill Bonuses
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim
Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)
Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)
And I should just as well mention;
Elder Scrolls Online (original description)
Full manuals can be found here;
https://manuals.bethsoft.com
Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth.
Now your weird scattershot point is what exactly? That some secondary stats change from game to game? Yes, because each game tried to get the overall theme of the race as best they could with the systems they created for the game. But the themes stayed consistent even if the systems to recreate them changed. Now unlike you who just picked skills at random and pretended to make a point. Let's choose two non-wood elf races and see how their skills progressed from Morrowind through Skyrim.
Morrowind;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor
High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion
Oblivion;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor
High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10
Skyrim;
Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)
High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere. And Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).
I don’t think you get the point of —> the devs can do whatever they want with the lore, if you’re going to get mad or annoyed about lore changing then eso and elder scrolls isn’t for you. This isn’t exclusive to this game or dev, Bethesda has done it and done it with Fallout. All they do is change lore and make up something to justify it.
I never said they aren’t thieves either. I only gave their description. You guys are the ones dismissing my points, I never dismissed a single point, I said you guys are leaving out lore. Sure stealth is a defining trait but so is speed, one got sacrificed for the other.
Even if we are counting both stealth and speed as defining traits, stealth detect has nothing to do with either of those.
Stealth detect in regards to what ? Being detected or doing the detection? Because bosmer are known for being scouts too.
Beyond that, detecting others in stealth is worthless outside of PvP, so that part of the passive is useless for many players. Bosmer can't be scouts if there's nothing for them to scout (stealthed enemies to reveal)
But that's the whole reason why you have the second part of the passive, isn't it?
Is it? Armor Pen is a PvP stat. Normal PvE players should be armor pen capped. Having "Bonus" armor pen is not needed in trials unless you have a very bad build.
The speed/roll combo might be ok in some situations IF you don't already have the passive that gives you a speed boost anyway. But DON"T USE A ROLL TO GET EXTRA ARMOR PEN IN A TRIAL OR DUNGEON. The roll should be used for getting out of danger not as a dps boost as it is a MAJOR stamina drain.
Here is what Alcast says about PvE Stamina races.
Stamina Damage Dealer
Best choice: Orc, Redguard, Dark Elf, Kahjiit
As a stamina damage dealer Orcs have the best stats, followed up by races like Redguards, Dark Elves and Khajiits. All are viable choices, so you can pick whichever race you like the most.
https://alcasthq.com/eso-race-guide-elder-scrolls-online/
Notice Wood Elves are not mentioned because their stats are not meant for PvE.
In fact in the Tank, Healer, Magicka, and Stamina dps race suggestions for PvE, Wood Elf is not mentioned as a choice for any of them.
While I agree with the points you are making, I am pretty convinced that Alcast just forgot to add Woodelfs initially and didn't bother to add it since. There are plenty of things he never updated in his builds, which bother me every time I come across them.
As an example, take this *** joke from his page. "Bosmer racial passives have a strong focus on stealth based gameplay style." I wonder what game he is playing.
Or another example, he updates a build to recommend Tzogvin's, but then keeps the Psijic skill for Minor Force in his bar and talks about Rearming trap when explaining the rotation.
Not to bash on him, it's good he updates things at all and makes comprehensive builds that go into so much detail.
Valid observations. I am not going to argue with any of it. But really I don't know of a better site to get info either.
I had a really long day, (6 hours of driving through extremely heavy rains) and I had 45+ email notifications waiting for me from this thread alone. I don't really have the energy for this right now. I am going to go play easy mode skyrim with a bosmer that has proper racials, until I just fall asleep completely.6 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭JayAstrophel wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »JayAstrophel wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »
Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.
So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.
There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.
They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.
edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.
Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.
Let’s see:
Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant
Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.
Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
Resist Disease 75% – Passive
Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%
Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.
And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.
I see you have not mastered the art of google-fu.
First let me repost what I wrote to you in the other thread.
OK Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.
(Hopefully I got the order correct.)
Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
Thieves...hmmm.
Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
Thieves again...
Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
Skill Bonuses
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion
Skill Bonuses
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim
Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)
Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)
And I should just as well mention;
Elder Scrolls Online (original description)
Full manuals can be found here;
https://manuals.bethsoft.com
Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth.
Now your weird scattershot point is what exactly? That some secondary stats change from game to game? Yes, because each game tried to get the overall theme of the race as best they could with the systems they created for the game. But the themes stayed consistent even if the systems to recreate them changed. Now unlike you who just picked skills at random and pretended to make a point. Let's choose two non-wood elf races and see how their skills progressed from Morrowind through Skyrim.
Morrowind;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor
High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion
Oblivion;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor
High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10
Skyrim;
Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)
High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere. And Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).
I don’t think you get the point of —> the devs can do whatever they want with the lore, if you’re going to get mad or annoyed about lore changing then eso and elder scrolls isn’t for you. This isn’t exclusive to this game or dev, Bethesda has done it and done it with Fallout. All they do is change lore and make up something to justify it.
I never said they aren’t thieves either. I only gave their description. You guys are the ones dismissing my points, I never dismissed a single point, I said you guys are leaving out lore. Sure stealth is a defining trait but so is speed, one got sacrificed for the other.
Even if we are counting both stealth and speed as defining traits, stealth detect has nothing to do with either of those.
Stealth detect in regards to what ? Being detected or doing the detection? Because bosmer are known for being scouts too.
Beyond that, detecting others in stealth is worthless outside of PvP, so that part of the passive is useless for many players. Bosmer can't be scouts if there's nothing for them to scout (stealthed enemies to reveal)
But that's the whole reason why you have the second part of the passive, isn't it?
Is it? Armor Pen is a PvP stat. Normal PvE players should be armor pen capped. Having "Bonus" armor pen is not needed in trials unless you have a very bad build.
The speed/roll combo might be ok in some situations IF you don't already have the passive that gives you a speed boost anyway. But DON"T USE A ROLL TO GET EXTRA ARMOR PEN IN A TRIAL OR DUNGEON. The roll should be used for getting out of danger not as a dps boost as it is a MAJOR stamina drain.
Here is what Alcast says about PvE Stamina races.
Stamina Damage Dealer
Best choice: Orc, Redguard, Dark Elf, Kahjiit
As a stamina damage dealer Orcs have the best stats, followed up by races like Redguards, Dark Elves and Khajiits. All are viable choices, so you can pick whichever race you like the most.
https://alcasthq.com/eso-race-guide-elder-scrolls-online/
Notice Wood Elves are not mentioned because their stats are not meant for PvE.
In fact in the Tank, Healer, Magicka, and Stamina dps race suggestions for PvE, Wood Elf is not mentioned as a choice for any of them.
While I agree with the points you are making, I am pretty convinced that Alcast just forgot to add Woodelfs initially and didn't bother to add it since. There are plenty of things he never updated in his builds, which bother me every time I come across them.
As an example, take this *** joke from his page. "Bosmer racial passives have a strong focus on stealth based gameplay style." I wonder what game he is playing.
Or another example, he updates a build to recommend Tzogvin's, but then keeps the Psijic skill for Minor Force in his bar and talks about Rearming trap when explaining the rotation.
Not to bash on him, it's good he updates things at all and makes comprehensive builds that go into so much detail.
Valid observations. I am not going to argue with any of it. But really I don't know of a better site to get info either.
I had a really long day, (6 hours of driving through extremely heavy rains) and I had 45+ email notifications waiting for me from this thread alone. I don't really have the energy for this right now. I am going to go play easy mode skyrim with a bosmer that has proper racials, until I just fall asleep completely.
Blue.... pretty sure you will check in here a few times a day. Turn off that email notification spam. You don't need it. Enjoy that real bosmer gameplay, and then get some sleep.
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Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »
Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.
So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.
There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.
They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.
edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.
Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.
Let’s see:
Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant
Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.
Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
Resist Disease 75% – Passive
Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%
Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.
And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.
NO, you're ignoring it because it completely negates your position.
What has never changed from game to game is the central role of the race.
Orcs have NEVER been particularly magical.
Bretons have NEVER been particularly warrior like.
And this can be done for each and every race.
So, answer or acknowledge that you are wrong: to what thief ability do Bosmeri have a bonus now?
Thanks for showing your bias. Zos should rightfully ignore you guys.
In every game that had racial bonuses to stats, Bosmer had THE MOST bonuses to stealth/rogue skills. In only one case were Khajiit tied, the remainder they had less. Once racial ability scores get factored in, Bosmer pull out ahead completely. So how is it 'bias' to expect that this core part of the racial identity be preserved? If that's what 'bias' means to you, that I want the race that were the best thieves from Morrowind through the first 5 years of ESO to still have the advantages to thieving that they have always had, then yeah, sure, I'm biased as hell. Note: this isn't with a new game. The new game was ESO 5 years ago, this is a patch to an old game, and we lost a key component of our racial identity. Why is it so hard for you to admit, "yeah, that's true, BUT..." You don't do that, you don't even go part way and say, "well, that may be true, BUT..."
You later go on to say (and this is a paraphrase), that it's their game and the devs can do whatever the heck they want. So, I'm assuming that means you would be 100% ok with them saying, "Look, we have Redguards who are a proud warrior race, and Nords who are a proud warrior race, and Orcs who are a proud warrior race, and that just too much of the same thing. So we're going to make Orcs pretty little butterfly-winged pixies who heal people with faerie dust from now on." Since it's their game and all, that's just peachy, right?
And still the question remains: to what thief ability do Bosmeri have a bonus now?
Edit to add:
Scout class generally gets a bonus to stealth, no bonus to detection. There has never been a detection skill, and so never any bonus to a non-existent skill. Every other class recommendation for Bosmer are those that use stealth. Consistently.Edited by Cundu_Ertur on June 19, 2019 2:48AMTaking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.5 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »
Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.
So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.
There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.
They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.
edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.
Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.
Let’s see:
Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant
Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.
Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
Resist Disease 75% – Passive
Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%
Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.
And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.
NO, you're ignoring it because it completely negates your position.
What has never changed from game to game is the central role of the race.
Orcs have NEVER been particularly magical.
Bretons have NEVER been particularly warrior like.
And this can be done for each and every race.
So, answer or acknowledge that you are wrong: to what thief ability do Bosmeri have a bonus now?
Thanks for showing your bias. Zos should rightfully ignore you guys.
In every game that had racial bonuses to stats, Bosmer had THE MOST bonuses to stealth/rogue skills. In only one case were Khajiit tied, the remainder they had less. Once racial ability scores get factored in, Bosmer pull out ahead completely. So how is it 'bias' to expect that this core part of the racial identity be preserved? If that's what 'bias' means to you, that I want the race that were the best thieves from Morrowind through the first 5 years of ESO to still have the advantages to thieving that they have always had, then yeah, sure, I'm biased as hell. Note: this isn't with a new game. The new game was ESO 5 years ago, this is a patch to an old game, and we lost a key component of our racial identity. Why is it so hard for you to admit, "yeah, that's true, BUT..." You don't do that, you don't even go part way and say, "well, that may be true, BUT..."
You later go on to say (and this is a paraphrase), that it's their game and the devs can do whatever the heck they want. So, I'm assuming that means you would be 100% ok with them saying, "Look, we have Redguards who are a proud warrior race, and Nords who are a proud warrior race, and Orcs who are a proud warrior race, and that just too much of the same thing. So we're going to make Orcs pretty little butterfly-winged pixies who heal people with faerie dust from now on." Since it's their game and all, that's just peachy, right?
And still the question remains: to what thief ability do Bosmeri have a bonus now?
Edit to add:
Scout class generally gets a bonus to stealth, no bonus to detection. There has never been a detection skill, and so never any bonus to a non-existent skill. Every other class recommendation for Bosmer are those that use stealth. Consistently.
You read but you don’t comprehend. That’s what happens when you’re hellbent on misunderstanding someone just to get your point across.
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CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Points were made, seems my job here is done.
However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.
What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.
But sure, whatever.
making things either pointless, niche or valuable
Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?
Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.
There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.
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Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Points were made, seems my job here is done.
However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.
What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.
But sure, whatever.
making things either pointless, niche or valuable
Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?
Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.
There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.
Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?
You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....Edited by Sylvermynx on June 19, 2019 4:00AM4 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TAMRIEL OUTLAW REFUGE CENSUS: Alliances and Chapters without Elsweyr
I went through the base game zones and a selection of DLC/chapter zones and counted the number of members of each race to develop a criminal statistic. If a character there was not a criminal nor affiliated with them, they wouldn't be counted. Otherwise when in doubt, I would count them.
To avoid overrepresentation these numbers have been taken by not counting Bretons in Breton territory, not counting Redguards in Redguard territory etc. For the purpose of the census, I decided that Bangkorai is Breton territory, because the outlaw refuge is in Evermore, which is still Breton territory.Overall:
Altmer 17
Argonian 19
Breton 13
Bosmer: 12
Dunmer 12
Imperial 2
Khajiit 20+1
Nord: 17
Orc: 20
Redguard 24+1
I certainly did not expect so few Imperials even though I expected fewer of them than other races, but I was also having difficulties telling tanned Bretons, Imperials and Redguards apart. Usually the name would give it away, but it's possible some Bretons/Redguards were actually Imperials. Still, seeing so many more Altmer than Dunmer and Bosmer was a surprise to be sure. Orcs, not as much. Although they aren't very sneaky, they are known to be bandits.
Here is the data broken down into alliances.Outlaw Refuge census part 1 DC territory + Wrothgar:
Altmer: 4
Argonian: 5
Breton: 4 + 1 person pretending not to be an undercover guard
Bosmer: 5
Dunmer: 2
Imperial 2
Khajiit: 6 + 1 woman attracted to criminals and villains
Nord: 4
Orcs: 11
Redguard: 11 + 1 guy who hangs out in the outlaw refuge but seems to hate criminals
It comes as no surprise that DC races are overrepresented in DC zones, although I had expected that not to be the case with the way I am counting. That's why I decided to note the results of each alliance separately as well.
Part 2 AD + Summerset (Outlaw Refuge and Mother's Den)
Altmer: 10
Argonian: 4
Breton: 4
Bosmer: 5 + one guy studying criminals with a very controversial theory
Dunmer:4
Imperial: 0
Khajiit: 10
Nord: 5
Orc: 5
Redguard: 7
I am very surprised that even when not counting the Bosmer in their home zones, there weren't a whole lot of them around. I am also surprised how many Redguards are criminals. So far they seem disproportionally criminal.
On the character I did the census on, I hadn't completed the quest of Velyn Harbor. It's possible that a lot of NPCs are missing there, because it felt rather empty.
Part 3 EP + Vvardenfell
Altmer: 3
Argonian: 10
Breton: 5
Bosmer: 2
Dunmer: 6
Imperial: 0
Khajiit: 4
Nord: 8
Orc: 4
Redguard: 6
As I suspected, Redguards are still quite criminal even outside their home territories. Curious.
As it turns out, overrepresentation still happens, but it is tied to alliances more than each race individually.
The census probably needs to be redone, but for now what can be done with the data is take out the races belonging to the alliance and check out those results.
Corrected:
Altmer 7
Argonian 9
Breton 9
Bosmer 7
Dunmer 6
Imperial 2
Khajiit: 10
Nord 9
Orc 9
Redguard 13
As we can see, Redguards are still strangely many, but this time Bosmer, while still behind, are closer to the rest than before. This data suggests that ZOS is probably trying to present a more well-mixed selection of characters to the player than sticking to stereotypes. Having almost or more than twice as many Redguards be criminals than 4 of the 9 other races have is a bit weird though, considering they aren't known to be faced with predjudice or notoriously criminal. Who would have thought?
I can't comment on redguard's affinity to crime, but your post inspired me to check how many bosmers are in major trading spots, which I periodically visit in search of cheap mats and had an impression that there are too little to much of wood elves:
Alik'r, Sentinel - Uurwaerion of 5 traders
Auridon, Skywatch - Cerweriell of 5 traders
Bangkorai, Evermore - Kaale of 5 traders
Clockwork City, Brass Fortress - no bosmers of 6 traders
Coldharbour, Hollow City - Nistyniel of 4 traders
Craglorn, Belkarth - sweet Donnaelain of 7 traders
Deshaan, Mournhold - Endoriell of 7 traders
Eastmarch, Windhelm - Celorien of 5 traders
Elsweyr, Rimmen - Maelanrith of 6 traders
Glenumbra, Daggerfall - Faedre of 5 traders
Grahtwood, Elden Root - Iannianith of 7 traders
Greenshade, Marbruk - Hasiwen of 5 traders
Hew's Bane, Abah's Landing - Gathewen of 6 traders
Malabal Tor, Baandari Post - Nindenel of 5 traders
Murkmire, Lilmoth - Thaloril of 6 traders
Reaper's March, Rawl'kha - Canda of 5 traders
Rivenspire, Shornhelm - Fernidela of 5 traders
Shadowfen, Stormhold - Emuin of 5 traders
Stonefalls, Ebonheart - Gananith of 5 traders
Stormhaven, Wayrest - Aerchith of 7 traders
Summerset, Alinor - Rialilrin of 6 traders
The Rift, Riften - Eralian of 6 traders
Vvardenfell, Vivec - Lorthodaer of 6 traders
Wrothgar, Orsinium - Lianorien of 6 traders
Conclusions of all this "useful analysis"
1. There are 23 bosmers from 140 major trading places, which is 16.4% from expected 11% distribution (Imperials are personas non-grata obviously due to ESO's political situation)
2. While other races are not evenly distributed in trading, with dunmers, altmers, redguards, orcs, khajiits, argonians widely presented and nords and bretons nearly non-existent, still, only bosmers hold spot in EVERY big city with exception of CWC, where their place was taken by factotum
3. ALL bosmer traders are female
So wherever you go for shopping without visiting some backwater outlet, you will always meet smol girl with cheerful, pretentious or irked attitude and cockney accent. Combine this with "BiS for cutiness" reputation and you may say that bosmers have taken imperials place as best traders and middlemans.
Overall, ESO's bosmer looks like unique enough race with skill-demanding passives, but pay-off with adorable height and classical "elven" appearance.What this has to do with original lore, where bosmers had specific "squirrel" looks, questionable negotiation abilities, but great affinity for thievery and archery - idk.
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Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@MartiniDaniels - interesting. I totally spaced that there are no male bosmer guild traders. On the roads in Grahtwood, Greenshade etc. the wandering traders are as often male as female.
Very intriguing.0 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »You read but you don’t comprehend. That’s what happens when you’re hellbent on misunderstanding someone just to get your point across.
What is there to comprehend?
Every time I ask you a perfectly valid question you come back with put-downs and insults. I suppose you are justifying your name or something.
What points have you made?
That systems change from game to game. I've touched on this and BlueRaven spent much more time on it. Yes, specifics change, but the overall point of each race is maintained. Altmer are mages, always; Orcs are warriors, always; Bosmer are thieves, always; and so on. Those are things that haven't changed. Until now. Now Bosmer are not thieves. Unless I'm failing to comprehend some bonus to thievery that they have. Is there one? You don't answer. You do say that you never said Bosmer weren't thieves before. But are they thieves now, in any way better than, say, Orcs. Orcs are the least thief like race in all of the previous games with not a single bonus to it and several disadvantageous abilities. And, the answer is, no. Bosmer now are no better at thievery than Orcs, Bretons, or Nords at this point.
The devs can do whatever they want with the lore. Which I addressed when I asked if you were ok with Orcs being retconned into pretty little pixies. No answer to that.
We are leaving out lore. What lore are we leaving out? The Meh Ayleidion? Rite of Theft? What? That Bosmer are nimble and quick? Sure, Bosmer are nimble and quick. That Bosmer are the best hunters? I know of one source that suggests that may be the case, but the problem for you is that it also suggests that this is due to the Bosmers' skill at stealth. So what lore are we leaving out? What lore says that Bosmer are good at spotting hidden people? I can think of a couple of sources about that, but (sadly) it's the Orcs who are good at that. I can also think of at least one example where Bosmer were NOT good at spotting people in hiding (I think it was Mixed Unit Tactics, off the top of my head).
That we traded stealth for speed. Answered by Ratzkifal: we gave up bonus damage to attacking from stealth to get the roll-dodge shenanigans. We lost stealth to get a garbage detection 'bonus' that is actually a detriment if you are trying to hide in Cyrodiil and which is completely 100% without the slightest possibility of use outside of Cyrodiil. Or Battlegrounds if you are silly enough to try hiding there. No reply to him. As for the roll-dodge thing itself: I don't have any issue with it from a lore perspective. The roll and be speedy thing is ok, Bosmer are nimble and quick, that reflects this, fine. The penetration bit, well, it's goofy. Why is penetration better only after a roll dodge? That makes no sense. If the change from what we had before had been from 3m bonus to hiding and +10% additional damage from stealth => 3m bonus to hiding and +10% movement speed for however long after a roll dodge, I'd be happy enough. I may grouse about it being a bit weak, but I certainly couldn't raise any lore-based objection. How could I? Bosmer are nimble and quick after all. But the replacement of the hiding bonus with a detection bonus has absolutely not the slightest justification out of the lore. It is not justified from the prior games. It is not justified by the established role of the race. It is a complete negation of all of those things. And why? Well, they can do whatever they want. But that's not an answer. It's a dismissal.
Edited by Cundu_Ertur on June 19, 2019 4:10AMTaking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.9 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Points were made, seems my job here is done.
However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.
What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.
But sure, whatever.
making things either pointless, niche or valuable
Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?
Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.
There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.
Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?
You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....
No you’re just not comprehending. It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else.
0 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Points were made, seems my job here is done.
However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.
What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.
But sure, whatever.
making things either pointless, niche or valuable
Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?
Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.
There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.
Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?
You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....
No you’re just not comprehending. It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else.
I'm comprehending just fine. You're here to get this thread closed. You're witch hunting. There is no value at all to the "new" Bosmer passive. In pve it's totally useless (even to me who has never messed with a Bosmer who uses stealth - I don't sneak or thieve or assassinate); in pvp it's not useful enough that people who have used the race in the past are still using it. NO ONE THINKS THIS RACIAL IS VALUABLE.
Jeez. Speaking of not comprehending. How about you go read the whole of the thread?
Oh right. You don't have the time.8 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sylvermynx wrote: »@MartiniDaniels - interesting. I totally spaced that there are no male bosmer guild traders. On the roads in Grahtwood, Greenshade etc. the wandering traders are as often male as female.
Very intriguing.
Yes, and that is also point I forget to mention - though other 6 races (with exception of nords, imperials and bretons) are wide spread in guild traders population, they are represented by both genders. I guess person responsible for traders has a soft spot for cockney gals or simply finds them funny and irreplaceable
While doing this quick overview, I may say that while some voices are repeating, overall personalities of those 23 traders are quite unique and that is amazing work from ZOS.
And I really love that voicing, maybe not the most beautiful, but so funny, especially for my DK second main, while she spams/pre-casts igneous shields in trials that is very distinctive sounds.2 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No.... pvp has no value at all to me. So in this last post you state the "value" to be in the speed and pen for pvp. Why didn't you just state that to begin with when I asked you?
It's not at all valuable to me. I haven't ever said it's not valuable to others. In fact, I asked you outright what the "valuable" was. Well, you finally decided to post it. Nope, not valuable to me at all. But for those who pvp I'm sure it is of value. Thought there are various posts herein where even those who pvp are very unimpressed with the passive.
Regardless, you're just here to get this thread locked, so whatever.3 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »No.... pvp has no value at all to me. So in this last post you state the "value" to be in the speed and pen for pvp. Why didn't you just state that to begin with when I asked you?
It's not at all valuable to me. I haven't ever said it's not valuable to others. In fact, I asked you outright what the "valuable" was. Well, you finally decided to post it. Nope, not valuable to me at all. But for those who pvp I'm sure it is of value. Thought there are various posts herein where even those who pvp are very unimpressed with the passive.
Regardless, you're just here to get this thread locked, so whatever.
“There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.”
Okay
Overall, majority likes roll-dodge speed which is useful everywhere, understands that penetration is very useful in PVP (I even described Sniker's video in detail with timeline of roll-dodges which led to 90%+ hunter's eye uptime.
We are all against stealth detection. Practice showed that this is barely useful (for me it was working notably with radiant magelight and I was able to dispel nightblades from big distance in PVP without pots.. but slotting magelight for stamina class is too much a sacrifice imo) and that sometimes it is even harmful. I.e. as a bosmer your stealth eye maybe closed because opponent is too far to have any chance to detect you, but due to your increased range enemy will know of your presence earlier because his stealth eye will show risk of detection. Though such scenario is extremely rare, still your passive in that case is harmful, because your enemy gets initiative.3 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Points were made, seems my job here is done.
However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.
What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.
But sure, whatever.
making things either pointless, niche or valuable
Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?
Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.
There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.
Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?
You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....
No you’re just not comprehending. It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else.
I'm comprehending just fine. You're here to get this thread closed. You're witch hunting. There is no value at all to the "new" Bosmer passive. In pve it's totally useless (even to me who has never messed with a Bosmer who uses stealth - I don't sneak or thieve or assassinate); in pvp it's not useful enough that people who have used the race in the past are still using it. NO ONE THINKS THIS RACIAL IS VALUABLE.
Jeez. Speaking of not comprehending. How about you go read the whole of the thread?
Oh right. You don't have the time.
You’re not comprehending anything if I’m saying you’re not comprehending. It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?. There’s value in the speed and pen passive in pvp. As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else. You and others just like to speak for the entire community, as if people have to share the same opinions as you. It’s not valuable because you say so ? Got it lol
If one person is having issues with comprehension, it may be them.
If it's a whole thread of people, then maybe the issue is that you are not communicating effectively.
I personally did not understand that "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance," was supposed to mean "It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else."
The phrase "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind...," can be read two ways. One: that the current set of all passives IS in perfect balance now for all modes of gameplay, or Two: that the devs made the effort to balance things while considering all modes of gameplay. Neither of these readings have anything to do with subjective values. That's a clarification you added later.
"It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?" It's also your point that you are trying to get across.
"As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else." Well, hold on now. This is the whole point of the whole thread, and here you confess that you really don't care about the detection bit. As for anyone finding that bit to be useful, I seriously doubt it. We've had people go in Cyrodiil (or PVP at least, since it is completely useless outside of PVP by design) and test it. During the recent event in Cyrodiil, when PVE'ers were flooding into Cyrodiil and crying they were getting PVP'ed in PVP-land one of our regulars, who has the skill, saw an enemy hide in a delve waiting for the boss to spawn. So he tried to use his detection bonus to find that person. It failed. He had to use a magelight or camouflaged hunter or potion or something to actually detect the hidden enemy. I think Ratzkifal also did some testing (it may have been Wedgebert, not sure now) that showed that it was actually a detriment to hiding from a hidden enemy. The enemy would see a half-open detection eye before the Bosmer player would.
Does this mean there is not one person in the whole world who would find that worthwhile? Well, no. People are stupid. No matter how stupid, useless, dangerous, or disgusting something may be there is some idiot, somewhere, who not only likes it but pays extra for it.
Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.4 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Ok, you got me. I am reading and failing to comprehend this.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »People have said the same thing about stealth detection being a medium armor passive, yet people still defend it and want the passive.
Are you saying stealth detection is a medium armor passive? Because I look in the medium armor skill tree and don't see it. The only detection passive is the Bosmer one, and it is independent of armor weight. Are you talking about the set bonuses for the Way of Air and Sentry sets? Do people even buy those? I tried selling some Way of Air and got it back in 30 days unsold.
This is true. Somewhere there's an idiot who would pay extra for that. That's true of everything. So?CatchMeTrolling wrote: »I can 100 percent guarantee if zos changes stealth detect from bosmer there will be people that complain.
Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.3 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Points were made, seems my job here is done.
However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.
What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.
But sure, whatever.
making things either pointless, niche or valuable
Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?
Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.
There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.
Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?
You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....
No you’re just not comprehending. It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else.
I'm comprehending just fine. You're here to get this thread closed. You're witch hunting. There is no value at all to the "new" Bosmer passive. In pve it's totally useless (even to me who has never messed with a Bosmer who uses stealth - I don't sneak or thieve or assassinate); in pvp it's not useful enough that people who have used the race in the past are still using it. NO ONE THINKS THIS RACIAL IS VALUABLE.
Jeez. Speaking of not comprehending. How about you go read the whole of the thread?
Oh right. You don't have the time.
You’re not comprehending anything if I’m saying you’re not comprehending. It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?. There’s value in the speed and pen passive in pvp. As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else. You and others just like to speak for the entire community, as if people have to share the same opinions as you. It’s not valuable because you say so ? Got it lol
If one person is having issues with comprehension, it may be them.
If it's a whole thread of people, then maybe the issue is that you are not communicating effectively.
I personally did not understand that "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance," was supposed to mean "It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else."
The phrase "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind...," can be read two ways. One: that the current set of all passives IS in perfect balance now for all modes of gameplay, or Two: that the devs made the effort to balance things while considering all modes of gameplay. Neither of these readings have anything to do with subjective values. That's a clarification you added later.
"It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?" It's also your point that you are trying to get across.
"As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else." Well, hold on now. This is the whole point of the whole thread, and here you confess that you really don't care about the detection bit. As for anyone finding that bit to be useful, I seriously doubt it. We've had people go in Cyrodiil (or PVP at least, since it is completely useless outside of PVP by design) and test it. During the recent event in Cyrodiil, when PVE'ers were flooding into Cyrodiil and crying they were getting PVP'ed in PVP-land one of our regulars, who has the skill, saw an enemy hide in a delve waiting for the boss to spawn. So he tried to use his detection bonus to find that person. It failed. He had to use a magelight or camouflaged hunter or potion or something to actually detect the hidden enemy. I think Ratzkifal also did some testing (it may have been Wedgebert, not sure now) that showed that it was actually a detriment to hiding from a hidden enemy. The enemy would see a half-open detection eye before the Bosmer player would.
Does this mean there is not one person in the whole world who would find that worthwhile? Well, no. People are stupid. No matter how stupid, useless, dangerous, or disgusting something may be there is some idiot, somewhere, who not only likes it but pays extra for it.
Argumentum ad populum?
But sure , I could’ve communicated more effectively, I chose to speak plainly though, which still doesn’t work well with over thinkers.
Anyways it’s probably more people than you think that want the passive. They’re just not talking about it, yet. Me and other people didn’t think there was enough people who cared about faction lock but look how that turned out.
Talking about this - Rank II - Medium Armor Rank 34
Reduces the cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
Also reduces the size of your detection area by 5% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
0 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Points were made, seems my job here is done.
However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.
What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.
But sure, whatever.
making things either pointless, niche or valuable
Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?
Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.
There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.
Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?
You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....
No you’re just not comprehending. It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else.
I'm comprehending just fine. You're here to get this thread closed. You're witch hunting. There is no value at all to the "new" Bosmer passive. In pve it's totally useless (even to me who has never messed with a Bosmer who uses stealth - I don't sneak or thieve or assassinate); in pvp it's not useful enough that people who have used the race in the past are still using it. NO ONE THINKS THIS RACIAL IS VALUABLE.
Jeez. Speaking of not comprehending. How about you go read the whole of the thread?
Oh right. You don't have the time.
You’re not comprehending anything if I’m saying you’re not comprehending. It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?. There’s value in the speed and pen passive in pvp. As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else. You and others just like to speak for the entire community, as if people have to share the same opinions as you. It’s not valuable because you say so ? Got it lol
If one person is having issues with comprehension, it may be them.
If it's a whole thread of people, then maybe the issue is that you are not communicating effectively.
I personally did not understand that "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance," was supposed to mean "It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else."
The phrase "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind...," can be read two ways. One: that the current set of all passives IS in perfect balance now for all modes of gameplay, or Two: that the devs made the effort to balance things while considering all modes of gameplay. Neither of these readings have anything to do with subjective values. That's a clarification you added later.
"It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?" It's also your point that you are trying to get across.
"As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else." Well, hold on now. This is the whole point of the whole thread, and here you confess that you really don't care about the detection bit. As for anyone finding that bit to be useful, I seriously doubt it. We've had people go in Cyrodiil (or PVP at least, since it is completely useless outside of PVP by design) and test it. During the recent event in Cyrodiil, when PVE'ers were flooding into Cyrodiil and crying they were getting PVP'ed in PVP-land one of our regulars, who has the skill, saw an enemy hide in a delve waiting for the boss to spawn. So he tried to use his detection bonus to find that person. It failed. He had to use a magelight or camouflaged hunter or potion or something to actually detect the hidden enemy. I think Ratzkifal also did some testing (it may have been Wedgebert, not sure now) that showed that it was actually a detriment to hiding from a hidden enemy. The enemy would see a half-open detection eye before the Bosmer player would.
Does this mean there is not one person in the whole world who would find that worthwhile? Well, no. People are stupid. No matter how stupid, useless, dangerous, or disgusting something may be there is some idiot, somewhere, who not only likes it but pays extra for it.
Argumentum ad populum?
But sure , I could’ve communicated more effectively, I chose to speak plainly though, which still doesn’t work well with over thinkers.
Anyways it’s probably more people than you think that want the passive. They’re just not talking about it, yet. Me and other people didn’t think there was enough people who cared about faction lock but look how that turned out.
Talking about this - Rank II - Medium Armor Rank 34
Reduces the cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
Also reduces the size of your detection area by 5% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
Ok, this is where ZOS is crap at communicating. That's a hiding bonus, not a detection bonus. I hate, hate, hate the way ZOS describes the hide bonus as 'stealth detection radius decrease' and the detection bonus as 'stealth detection radius increase.' It's ambiguous as hell.
I understand why people would want something more armor based in an armor skill line. It's also kind of nonsensical that you hide better in leather armor than clothing. It should be in the legerdemain line, but (as BlueRaven has pointed out) the only way to level that skill reliably is to have it already maxed out. If the skill were to be replaced by something sensible in another skill line, I'd be fine with it, but removing it without a replacement is a non-starter. I think it should be a legerdemain skill, +5% hiding bonus per medium armor, +7% per light armor; and the legerdemain skill line gets experience from current sources (picking locks, fencing, picking pockets) and from some kind of sneaking around thing, maybe from successfully attacking a hostile critter or something like that. The Skyrim method of levelling sneak by crouching behind a guard and going away for a few hours shouldn't be an option.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.3 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »
There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.
Gee, you don't think Bosmer having the highest total racial stamina buffs might have something to do with it?
4 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »
There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.
Gee, you don't think Bosmer having the highest total racial stamina buffs might have something to do with it?
You don’t pvp, because non medium armor players go orc and Redguard in pvp and have been for the longest.
0 -
Kalle_Demos✭✭✭✭✭TAMRIEL OUTLAW REFUGE CENSUS: Alliances and Chapters without Elsweyr
I went through the base game zones and a selection of DLC/chapter zones and counted the number of members of each race to develop a criminal statistic. If a character there was not a criminal nor affiliated with them, they wouldn't be counted. Otherwise when in doubt, I would count them.
To avoid overrepresentation these numbers have been taken by not counting Bretons in Breton territory, not counting Redguards in Redguard territory etc. For the purpose of the census, I decided that Bangkorai is Breton territory, because the outlaw refuge is in Evermore, which is still Breton territory.
Overall:
Altmer 17
Argonian 19
Breton 13
Bosmer: 12
Dunmer 12
Imperial 2
Khajiit 20+1
Nord: 17
Orc: 20
Redguard 24+1
I certainly did not expect so few Imperials even though I expected fewer of them than other races, but I was also having difficulties telling tanned Bretons, Imperials and Redguards apart. Usually the name would give it away, but it's possible some Bretons/Redguards were actually Imperials. Still, seeing so many more Altmer than Dunmer and Bosmer was a surprise to be sure. Orcs, not as much. Although they aren't very sneaky, they are known to be bandits.
Here is the data broken down into alliances.Outlaw Refuge census part 1 DC territory + Wrothgar:
Altmer: 4
Argonian: 5
Breton: 4 + 1 person pretending not to be an undercover guard
Bosmer: 5
Dunmer: 2
Imperial 2
Khajiit: 6 + 1 woman attracted to criminals and villains
Nord: 4
Orcs: 11
Redguard: 11 + 1 guy who hangs out in the outlaw refuge but seems to hate criminals
It comes as no surprise that DC races are overrepresented in DC zones, although I had expected that not to be the case with the way I am counting. That's why I decided to note the results of each alliance separately as well.
Part 2 AD + Summerset (Outlaw Refuge and Mother's Den)
Altmer: 10
Argonian: 4
Breton: 4
Bosmer: 5 + one guy studying criminals with a very controversial theory
Dunmer:4
Imperial: 0
Khajiit: 10
Nord: 5
Orc: 5
Redguard: 7
I am very surprised that even when not counting the Bosmer in their home zones, there weren't a whole lot of them around. I am also surprised how many Redguards are criminals. So far they seem disproportionally criminal.
On the character I did the census on, I hadn't completed the quest of Velyn Harbor. It's possible that a lot of NPCs are missing there, because it felt rather empty.
Part 3 EP + Vvardenfell
Altmer: 3
Argonian: 10
Breton: 5
Bosmer: 2
Dunmer: 6
Imperial: 0
Khajiit: 4
Nord: 8
Orc: 4
Redguard: 6
As I suspected, Redguards are still quite criminal even outside their home territories. Curious.
As it turns out, overrepresentation still happens, but it is tied to alliances more than each race individually.
The census probably needs to be redone, but for now what can be done with the data is take out the races belonging to the alliance and check out those results.
Corrected:
Altmer 7
Argonian 9
Breton 9
Bosmer 7
Dunmer 6
Imperial 2
Khajiit: 10
Nord 9
Orc 9
Redguard 13
As we can see, Redguards are still strangely many, but this time Bosmer, while still behind, are closer to the rest than before. This data suggests that ZOS is probably trying to present a more well-mixed selection of characters to the player than sticking to stereotypes. Having almost or more than twice as many Redguards be criminals than 4 of the 9 other races have is a bit weird though, considering they aren't known to be faced with predjudice or notoriously criminal. Who would have thought?
"If I am to be Queen, I must look fear in the face and conquer it. How can I ask my people to have faith in me if I don't have faith in myself?" - Queen Ayrenn3 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Points were made, seems my job here is done.
However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.
What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.
But sure, whatever.
making things either pointless, niche or valuable
Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?
Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.
There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.
Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?
You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....
No you’re just not comprehending. It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else.
I'm comprehending just fine. You're here to get this thread closed. You're witch hunting. There is no value at all to the "new" Bosmer passive. In pve it's totally useless (even to me who has never messed with a Bosmer who uses stealth - I don't sneak or thieve or assassinate); in pvp it's not useful enough that people who have used the race in the past are still using it. NO ONE THINKS THIS RACIAL IS VALUABLE.
Jeez. Speaking of not comprehending. How about you go read the whole of the thread?
Oh right. You don't have the time.
You’re not comprehending anything if I’m saying you’re not comprehending. It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?. There’s value in the speed and pen passive in pvp. As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else. You and others just like to speak for the entire community, as if people have to share the same opinions as you. It’s not valuable because you say so ? Got it lol
If one person is having issues with comprehension, it may be them.
If it's a whole thread of people, then maybe the issue is that you are not communicating effectively.
I personally did not understand that "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance," was supposed to mean "It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else."
The phrase "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind...," can be read two ways. One: that the current set of all passives IS in perfect balance now for all modes of gameplay, or Two: that the devs made the effort to balance things while considering all modes of gameplay. Neither of these readings have anything to do with subjective values. That's a clarification you added later.
"It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?" It's also your point that you are trying to get across.
"As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else." Well, hold on now. This is the whole point of the whole thread, and here you confess that you really don't care about the detection bit. As for anyone finding that bit to be useful, I seriously doubt it. We've had people go in Cyrodiil (or PVP at least, since it is completely useless outside of PVP by design) and test it. During the recent event in Cyrodiil, when PVE'ers were flooding into Cyrodiil and crying they were getting PVP'ed in PVP-land one of our regulars, who has the skill, saw an enemy hide in a delve waiting for the boss to spawn. So he tried to use his detection bonus to find that person. It failed. He had to use a magelight or camouflaged hunter or potion or something to actually detect the hidden enemy. I think Ratzkifal also did some testing (it may have been Wedgebert, not sure now) that showed that it was actually a detriment to hiding from a hidden enemy. The enemy would see a half-open detection eye before the Bosmer player would.
Does this mean there is not one person in the whole world who would find that worthwhile? Well, no. People are stupid. No matter how stupid, useless, dangerous, or disgusting something may be there is some idiot, somewhere, who not only likes it but pays extra for it.
Argumentum ad populum?
But sure , I could’ve communicated more effectively, I chose to speak plainly though, which still doesn’t work well with over thinkers.
Anyways it’s probably more people than you think that want the passive. They’re just not talking about it, yet. Me and other people didn’t think there was enough people who cared about faction lock but look how that turned out.
Talking about this - Rank II - Medium Armor Rank 34
Reduces the cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
Also reduces the size of your detection area by 5% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
Ok, this is where ZOS is crap at communicating. That's a hiding bonus, not a detection bonus. I hate, hate, hate the way ZOS describes the hide bonus as 'stealth detection radius decrease' and the detection bonus as 'stealth detection radius increase.' It's ambiguous as hell.
I understand why people would want something more armor based in an armor skill line. It's also kind of nonsensical that you hide better in leather armor than clothing. It should be in the legerdemain line, but (as BlueRaven has pointed out) the only way to level that skill reliably is to have it already maxed out. If the skill were to be replaced by something sensible in another skill line, I'd be fine with it, but removing it without a replacement is a non-starter. I think it should be a legerdemain skill, +5% hiding bonus per medium armor, +7% per light armor; and the legerdemain skill line gets experience from current sources (picking locks, fencing, picking pockets) and from some kind of sneaking around thing, maybe from successfully attacking a hostile critter or something like that. The Skyrim method of levelling sneak by crouching behind a guard and going away for a few hours shouldn't be an option.
Oh I thought it was a detect passive, never really used it to know. Their wording.
I think the stealth buffs shouldn’t be a part of the race passives. Unless it’s stealth damage, they’re not important enough from a large scale point of view. However, I already thought that they belonged in the thief skillline. Race passives should favor more common gameplay, whether it’s in pve or pvp. If this was a single player game that would be a different story. I’m sure that’s the idea the devs had with the race balance, more flexible passives.
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