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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

  • Sylvermynx
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    @MartiniDaniels - interesting. I totally spaced that there are no male bosmer guild traders. On the roads in Grahtwood, Greenshade etc. the wandering traders are as often male as female.

    Very intriguing.
  • CatchMeTrolling
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Points were made, seems my job here is done.

    However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.

    What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.

    But sure, whatever.

    making things either pointless, niche or valuable



    Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?

    Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.

    There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.

    Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?

    You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....

    No you’re just not comprehending. It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else.

  • MartiniDaniels
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    @MartiniDaniels - interesting. I totally spaced that there are no male bosmer guild traders. On the roads in Grahtwood, Greenshade etc. the wandering traders are as often male as female.

    Very intriguing.

    Yes, and that is also point I forget to mention - though other 6 races (with exception of nords, imperials and bretons) are wide spread in guild traders population, they are represented by both genders. I guess person responsible for traders has a soft spot for cockney gals or simply finds them funny and irreplaceable :D
    While doing this quick overview, I may say that while some voices are repeating, overall personalities of those 23 traders are quite unique and that is amazing work from ZOS.
    And I really love that voicing, maybe not the most beautiful, but so funny, especially for my DK second main, while she spams/pre-casts igneous shields in trials that is very distinctive sounds.
  • Sylvermynx
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    No.... pvp has no value at all to me. So in this last post you state the "value" to be in the speed and pen for pvp. Why didn't you just state that to begin with when I asked you?

    It's not at all valuable to me. I haven't ever said it's not valuable to others. In fact, I asked you outright what the "valuable" was. Well, you finally decided to post it. Nope, not valuable to me at all. But for those who pvp I'm sure it is of value. Thought there are various posts herein where even those who pvp are very unimpressed with the passive.

    Regardless, you're just here to get this thread locked, so whatever.
  • MartiniDaniels
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    No.... pvp has no value at all to me. So in this last post you state the "value" to be in the speed and pen for pvp. Why didn't you just state that to begin with when I asked you?

    It's not at all valuable to me. I haven't ever said it's not valuable to others. In fact, I asked you outright what the "valuable" was. Well, you finally decided to post it. Nope, not valuable to me at all. But for those who pvp I'm sure it is of value. Thought there are various posts herein where even those who pvp are very unimpressed with the passive.

    Regardless, you're just here to get this thread locked, so whatever.

    “There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.”

    Okay

    Overall, majority likes roll-dodge speed which is useful everywhere, understands that penetration is very useful in PVP (I even described Sniker's video in detail with timeline of roll-dodges which led to 90%+ hunter's eye uptime.
    We are all against stealth detection. Practice showed that this is barely useful (for me it was working notably with radiant magelight and I was able to dispel nightblades from big distance in PVP without pots.. but slotting magelight for stamina class is too much a sacrifice imo) and that sometimes it is even harmful. I.e. as a bosmer your stealth eye maybe closed because opponent is too far to have any chance to detect you, but due to your increased range enemy will know of your presence earlier because his stealth eye will show risk of detection. Though such scenario is extremely rare, still your passive in that case is harmful, because your enemy gets initiative.
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Points were made, seems my job here is done.

    However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.

    What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.

    But sure, whatever.

    making things either pointless, niche or valuable



    Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?

    Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.

    There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.

    Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?

    You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....

    No you’re just not comprehending. It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else.

    I'm comprehending just fine. You're here to get this thread closed. You're witch hunting. There is no value at all to the "new" Bosmer passive. In pve it's totally useless (even to me who has never messed with a Bosmer who uses stealth - I don't sneak or thieve or assassinate); in pvp it's not useful enough that people who have used the race in the past are still using it. NO ONE THINKS THIS RACIAL IS VALUABLE.

    Jeez. Speaking of not comprehending. How about you go read the whole of the thread?

    Oh right. You don't have the time.

    You’re not comprehending anything if I’m saying you’re not comprehending. It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?. There’s value in the speed and pen passive in pvp. As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else. You and others just like to speak for the entire community, as if people have to share the same opinions as you. It’s not valuable because you say so ? Got it lol

    If one person is having issues with comprehension, it may be them.
    If it's a whole thread of people, then maybe the issue is that you are not communicating effectively.

    I personally did not understand that "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance," was supposed to mean "It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else."


    The phrase "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind...," can be read two ways. One: that the current set of all passives IS in perfect balance now for all modes of gameplay, or Two: that the devs made the effort to balance things while considering all modes of gameplay. Neither of these readings have anything to do with subjective values. That's a clarification you added later.

    "It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?" It's also your point that you are trying to get across.

    "As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else." Well, hold on now. This is the whole point of the whole thread, and here you confess that you really don't care about the detection bit. As for anyone finding that bit to be useful, I seriously doubt it. We've had people go in Cyrodiil (or PVP at least, since it is completely useless outside of PVP by design) and test it. During the recent event in Cyrodiil, when PVE'ers were flooding into Cyrodiil and crying they were getting PVP'ed in PVP-land one of our regulars, who has the skill, saw an enemy hide in a delve waiting for the boss to spawn. So he tried to use his detection bonus to find that person. It failed. He had to use a magelight or camouflaged hunter or potion or something to actually detect the hidden enemy. I think Ratzkifal also did some testing (it may have been Wedgebert, not sure now) that showed that it was actually a detriment to hiding from a hidden enemy. The enemy would see a half-open detection eye before the Bosmer player would.

    Does this mean there is not one person in the whole world who would find that worthwhile? Well, no. People are stupid. No matter how stupid, useless, dangerous, or disgusting something may be there is some idiot, somewhere, who not only likes it but pays extra for it.

    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    People have said the same thing about stealth detection being a medium armor passive, yet people still defend it and want the passive.
    Ok, you got me. I am reading and failing to comprehend this.
    Are you saying stealth detection is a medium armor passive? Because I look in the medium armor skill tree and don't see it. The only detection passive is the Bosmer one, and it is independent of armor weight. Are you talking about the set bonuses for the Way of Air and Sentry sets? Do people even buy those? I tried selling some Way of Air and got it back in 30 days unsold.
    I can 100 percent guarantee if zos changes stealth detect from bosmer there will be people that complain.
    This is true. Somewhere there's an idiot who would pay extra for that. That's true of everything. So?
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • CatchMeTrolling
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Points were made, seems my job here is done.

    However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.

    What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.

    But sure, whatever.

    making things either pointless, niche or valuable



    Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?

    Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.

    There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.

    Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?

    You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....

    No you’re just not comprehending. It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else.

    I'm comprehending just fine. You're here to get this thread closed. You're witch hunting. There is no value at all to the "new" Bosmer passive. In pve it's totally useless (even to me who has never messed with a Bosmer who uses stealth - I don't sneak or thieve or assassinate); in pvp it's not useful enough that people who have used the race in the past are still using it. NO ONE THINKS THIS RACIAL IS VALUABLE.

    Jeez. Speaking of not comprehending. How about you go read the whole of the thread?

    Oh right. You don't have the time.

    You’re not comprehending anything if I’m saying you’re not comprehending. It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?. There’s value in the speed and pen passive in pvp. As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else. You and others just like to speak for the entire community, as if people have to share the same opinions as you. It’s not valuable because you say so ? Got it lol

    If one person is having issues with comprehension, it may be them.
    If it's a whole thread of people, then maybe the issue is that you are not communicating effectively.

    I personally did not understand that "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance," was supposed to mean "It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else."


    The phrase "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind...," can be read two ways. One: that the current set of all passives IS in perfect balance now for all modes of gameplay, or Two: that the devs made the effort to balance things while considering all modes of gameplay. Neither of these readings have anything to do with subjective values. That's a clarification you added later.

    "It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?" It's also your point that you are trying to get across.

    "As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else." Well, hold on now. This is the whole point of the whole thread, and here you confess that you really don't care about the detection bit. As for anyone finding that bit to be useful, I seriously doubt it. We've had people go in Cyrodiil (or PVP at least, since it is completely useless outside of PVP by design) and test it. During the recent event in Cyrodiil, when PVE'ers were flooding into Cyrodiil and crying they were getting PVP'ed in PVP-land one of our regulars, who has the skill, saw an enemy hide in a delve waiting for the boss to spawn. So he tried to use his detection bonus to find that person. It failed. He had to use a magelight or camouflaged hunter or potion or something to actually detect the hidden enemy. I think Ratzkifal also did some testing (it may have been Wedgebert, not sure now) that showed that it was actually a detriment to hiding from a hidden enemy. The enemy would see a half-open detection eye before the Bosmer player would.

    Does this mean there is not one person in the whole world who would find that worthwhile? Well, no. People are stupid. No matter how stupid, useless, dangerous, or disgusting something may be there is some idiot, somewhere, who not only likes it but pays extra for it.

    Argumentum ad populum?

    But sure , I could’ve communicated more effectively, I chose to speak plainly though, which still doesn’t work well with over thinkers.

    Anyways it’s probably more people than you think that want the passive. They’re just not talking about it, yet. Me and other people didn’t think there was enough people who cared about faction lock but look how that turned out.


    Talking about this - Rank II - Medium Armor Rank 34

    Reduces the cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.

    Also reduces the size of your detection area by 5% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.

  • Cundu_Ertur
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Points were made, seems my job here is done.

    However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.

    What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.

    But sure, whatever.

    making things either pointless, niche or valuable



    Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?

    Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.

    There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.

    Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?

    You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....

    No you’re just not comprehending. It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else.

    I'm comprehending just fine. You're here to get this thread closed. You're witch hunting. There is no value at all to the "new" Bosmer passive. In pve it's totally useless (even to me who has never messed with a Bosmer who uses stealth - I don't sneak or thieve or assassinate); in pvp it's not useful enough that people who have used the race in the past are still using it. NO ONE THINKS THIS RACIAL IS VALUABLE.

    Jeez. Speaking of not comprehending. How about you go read the whole of the thread?

    Oh right. You don't have the time.

    You’re not comprehending anything if I’m saying you’re not comprehending. It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?. There’s value in the speed and pen passive in pvp. As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else. You and others just like to speak for the entire community, as if people have to share the same opinions as you. It’s not valuable because you say so ? Got it lol

    If one person is having issues with comprehension, it may be them.
    If it's a whole thread of people, then maybe the issue is that you are not communicating effectively.

    I personally did not understand that "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance," was supposed to mean "It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else."


    The phrase "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind...," can be read two ways. One: that the current set of all passives IS in perfect balance now for all modes of gameplay, or Two: that the devs made the effort to balance things while considering all modes of gameplay. Neither of these readings have anything to do with subjective values. That's a clarification you added later.

    "It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?" It's also your point that you are trying to get across.

    "As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else." Well, hold on now. This is the whole point of the whole thread, and here you confess that you really don't care about the detection bit. As for anyone finding that bit to be useful, I seriously doubt it. We've had people go in Cyrodiil (or PVP at least, since it is completely useless outside of PVP by design) and test it. During the recent event in Cyrodiil, when PVE'ers were flooding into Cyrodiil and crying they were getting PVP'ed in PVP-land one of our regulars, who has the skill, saw an enemy hide in a delve waiting for the boss to spawn. So he tried to use his detection bonus to find that person. It failed. He had to use a magelight or camouflaged hunter or potion or something to actually detect the hidden enemy. I think Ratzkifal also did some testing (it may have been Wedgebert, not sure now) that showed that it was actually a detriment to hiding from a hidden enemy. The enemy would see a half-open detection eye before the Bosmer player would.

    Does this mean there is not one person in the whole world who would find that worthwhile? Well, no. People are stupid. No matter how stupid, useless, dangerous, or disgusting something may be there is some idiot, somewhere, who not only likes it but pays extra for it.

    Argumentum ad populum?

    But sure , I could’ve communicated more effectively, I chose to speak plainly though, which still doesn’t work well with over thinkers.

    Anyways it’s probably more people than you think that want the passive. They’re just not talking about it, yet. Me and other people didn’t think there was enough people who cared about faction lock but look how that turned out.


    Talking about this - Rank II - Medium Armor Rank 34

    Reduces the cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.

    Also reduces the size of your detection area by 5% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.

    Ok, this is where ZOS is crap at communicating. That's a hiding bonus, not a detection bonus. I hate, hate, hate the way ZOS describes the hide bonus as 'stealth detection radius decrease' and the detection bonus as 'stealth detection radius increase.' It's ambiguous as hell.

    I understand why people would want something more armor based in an armor skill line. It's also kind of nonsensical that you hide better in leather armor than clothing. It should be in the legerdemain line, but (as BlueRaven has pointed out) the only way to level that skill reliably is to have it already maxed out. If the skill were to be replaced by something sensible in another skill line, I'd be fine with it, but removing it without a replacement is a non-starter. I think it should be a legerdemain skill, +5% hiding bonus per medium armor, +7% per light armor; and the legerdemain skill line gets experience from current sources (picking locks, fencing, picking pockets) and from some kind of sneaking around thing, maybe from successfully attacking a hostile critter or something like that. The Skyrim method of levelling sneak by crouching behind a guard and going away for a few hours shouldn't be an option.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Jaraal
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    There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.

    Gee, you don't think Bosmer having the highest total racial stamina buffs might have something to do with it?

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    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • CatchMeTrolling
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    Jaraal wrote: »

    There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.

    Gee, you don't think Bosmer having the highest total racial stamina buffs might have something to do with it?

    jSss5Y9.png

    You don’t pvp, because non medium armor players go orc and Redguard in pvp and have been for the longest.

  • Kalle_Demos
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    TAMRIEL OUTLAW REFUGE CENSUS: Alliances and Chapters without Elsweyr
    I went through the base game zones and a selection of DLC/chapter zones and counted the number of members of each race to develop a criminal statistic. If a character there was not a criminal nor affiliated with them, they wouldn't be counted. Otherwise when in doubt, I would count them.
    To avoid overrepresentation these numbers have been taken by not counting Bretons in Breton territory, not counting Redguards in Redguard territory etc. For the purpose of the census, I decided that Bangkorai is Breton territory, because the outlaw refuge is in Evermore, which is still Breton territory.

    Overall:
    Altmer 17
    Argonian 19
    Breton 13
    Bosmer: 12
    Dunmer 12
    Imperial 2
    Khajiit 20+1
    Nord: 17
    Orc: 20
    Redguard 24+1

    I certainly did not expect so few Imperials even though I expected fewer of them than other races, but I was also having difficulties telling tanned Bretons, Imperials and Redguards apart. Usually the name would give it away, but it's possible some Bretons/Redguards were actually Imperials. Still, seeing so many more Altmer than Dunmer and Bosmer was a surprise to be sure. Orcs, not as much. Although they aren't very sneaky, they are known to be bandits.
    Here is the data broken down into alliances.
    Outlaw Refuge census part 1 DC territory + Wrothgar:
    Altmer: 4
    Argonian: 5
    Breton: 4 + 1 person pretending not to be an undercover guard
    Bosmer: 5
    Dunmer: 2
    Imperial 2
    Khajiit: 6 + 1 woman attracted to criminals and villains
    Nord: 4
    Orcs: 11
    Redguard: 11 + 1 guy who hangs out in the outlaw refuge but seems to hate criminals

    It comes as no surprise that DC races are overrepresented in DC zones, although I had expected that not to be the case with the way I am counting. That's why I decided to note the results of each alliance separately as well.

    Part 2 AD + Summerset (Outlaw Refuge and Mother's Den)
    Altmer: 10
    Argonian: 4
    Breton: 4
    Bosmer: 5 + one guy studying criminals with a very controversial theory
    Dunmer:4
    Imperial: 0
    Khajiit: 10
    Nord: 5
    Orc: 5
    Redguard: 7

    I am very surprised that even when not counting the Bosmer in their home zones, there weren't a whole lot of them around. I am also surprised how many Redguards are criminals. So far they seem disproportionally criminal.
    On the character I did the census on, I hadn't completed the quest of Velyn Harbor. It's possible that a lot of NPCs are missing there, because it felt rather empty.

    Part 3 EP + Vvardenfell

    Altmer: 3
    Argonian: 10
    Breton: 5
    Bosmer: 2
    Dunmer: 6
    Imperial: 0
    Khajiit: 4
    Nord: 8
    Orc: 4
    Redguard: 6

    As I suspected, Redguards are still quite criminal even outside their home territories. Curious.

    As it turns out, overrepresentation still happens, but it is tied to alliances more than each race individually.
    The census probably needs to be redone, but for now what can be done with the data is take out the races belonging to the alliance and check out those results.

    Corrected:
    Altmer 7
    Argonian 9
    Breton 9
    Bosmer 7
    Dunmer 6
    Imperial 2
    Khajiit: 10
    Nord 9
    Orc 9
    Redguard 13

    As we can see, Redguards are still strangely many, but this time Bosmer, while still behind, are closer to the rest than before. This data suggests that ZOS is probably trying to present a more well-mixed selection of characters to the player than sticking to stereotypes. Having almost or more than twice as many Redguards be criminals than 4 of the 9 other races have is a bit weird though, considering they aren't known to be faced with predjudice or notoriously criminal. Who would have thought?

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    "If I am to be Queen, I must look fear in the face and conquer it. How can I ask my people to have faith in me if I don't have faith in myself?" - Queen Ayrenn
  • CatchMeTrolling
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Points were made, seems my job here is done.

    However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.

    What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.

    But sure, whatever.

    making things either pointless, niche or valuable



    Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?

    Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.

    There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.

    Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?

    You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....

    No you’re just not comprehending. It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else.

    I'm comprehending just fine. You're here to get this thread closed. You're witch hunting. There is no value at all to the "new" Bosmer passive. In pve it's totally useless (even to me who has never messed with a Bosmer who uses stealth - I don't sneak or thieve or assassinate); in pvp it's not useful enough that people who have used the race in the past are still using it. NO ONE THINKS THIS RACIAL IS VALUABLE.

    Jeez. Speaking of not comprehending. How about you go read the whole of the thread?

    Oh right. You don't have the time.

    You’re not comprehending anything if I’m saying you’re not comprehending. It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?. There’s value in the speed and pen passive in pvp. As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else. You and others just like to speak for the entire community, as if people have to share the same opinions as you. It’s not valuable because you say so ? Got it lol

    If one person is having issues with comprehension, it may be them.
    If it's a whole thread of people, then maybe the issue is that you are not communicating effectively.

    I personally did not understand that "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance," was supposed to mean "It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else."


    The phrase "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind...," can be read two ways. One: that the current set of all passives IS in perfect balance now for all modes of gameplay, or Two: that the devs made the effort to balance things while considering all modes of gameplay. Neither of these readings have anything to do with subjective values. That's a clarification you added later.

    "It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?" It's also your point that you are trying to get across.

    "As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else." Well, hold on now. This is the whole point of the whole thread, and here you confess that you really don't care about the detection bit. As for anyone finding that bit to be useful, I seriously doubt it. We've had people go in Cyrodiil (or PVP at least, since it is completely useless outside of PVP by design) and test it. During the recent event in Cyrodiil, when PVE'ers were flooding into Cyrodiil and crying they were getting PVP'ed in PVP-land one of our regulars, who has the skill, saw an enemy hide in a delve waiting for the boss to spawn. So he tried to use his detection bonus to find that person. It failed. He had to use a magelight or camouflaged hunter or potion or something to actually detect the hidden enemy. I think Ratzkifal also did some testing (it may have been Wedgebert, not sure now) that showed that it was actually a detriment to hiding from a hidden enemy. The enemy would see a half-open detection eye before the Bosmer player would.

    Does this mean there is not one person in the whole world who would find that worthwhile? Well, no. People are stupid. No matter how stupid, useless, dangerous, or disgusting something may be there is some idiot, somewhere, who not only likes it but pays extra for it.

    Argumentum ad populum?

    But sure , I could’ve communicated more effectively, I chose to speak plainly though, which still doesn’t work well with over thinkers.

    Anyways it’s probably more people than you think that want the passive. They’re just not talking about it, yet. Me and other people didn’t think there was enough people who cared about faction lock but look how that turned out.


    Talking about this - Rank II - Medium Armor Rank 34

    Reduces the cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.

    Also reduces the size of your detection area by 5% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.

    Ok, this is where ZOS is crap at communicating. That's a hiding bonus, not a detection bonus. I hate, hate, hate the way ZOS describes the hide bonus as 'stealth detection radius decrease' and the detection bonus as 'stealth detection radius increase.' It's ambiguous as hell.

    I understand why people would want something more armor based in an armor skill line. It's also kind of nonsensical that you hide better in leather armor than clothing. It should be in the legerdemain line, but (as BlueRaven has pointed out) the only way to level that skill reliably is to have it already maxed out. If the skill were to be replaced by something sensible in another skill line, I'd be fine with it, but removing it without a replacement is a non-starter. I think it should be a legerdemain skill, +5% hiding bonus per medium armor, +7% per light armor; and the legerdemain skill line gets experience from current sources (picking locks, fencing, picking pockets) and from some kind of sneaking around thing, maybe from successfully attacking a hostile critter or something like that. The Skyrim method of levelling sneak by crouching behind a guard and going away for a few hours shouldn't be an option.

    Oh I thought it was a detect passive, never really used it to know. Their wording.

    I think the stealth buffs shouldn’t be a part of the race passives. Unless it’s stealth damage, they’re not important enough from a large scale point of view. However, I already thought that they belonged in the thief skillline. Race passives should favor more common gameplay, whether it’s in pve or pvp. If this was a single player game that would be a different story. I’m sure that’s the idea the devs had with the race balance, more flexible passives.
  • Uryel
    Uryel
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Having almost or more than twice as many Redguards be criminals than 4 of the 9 other races have is a bit weird though, considering they aren't known to be faced with predjudice or notoriously criminal. Who would have thought?

    US dev team, Black characters, what did you expect ? :P
  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
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    ✭✭
    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Points were made, seems my job here is done.

    However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance.

    What? Hunters eye has no PvE value. You didn't really convince anyone. And you did not provide context for any of your assertions.

    But sure, whatever.

    making things either pointless, niche or valuable



    Well.... for pve, it's pointless. For pvp it's niche. So where do you think it's valuable?

    Another example of reading but not comprehending. It doesn’t have to be all three and at the same time it can be all 3 because it depends on how valuable, niche or pointless it is to someone, which clearly varies.

    There’s people joking about the uselessness of pen and speed . Yet wood elf is bis for medium armor builds in pvp. I assume most people in this thread are pve players anyways.

    Eh, I quoted your post verbatim. I gave my input on two of the three options. You're the one who posited three "points". So, I ask again, where do you think it's "valuable"?

    You're just here to try to get this thread closed. Vide your user ID....

    No you’re just not comprehending. It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else.

    I'm comprehending just fine. You're here to get this thread closed. You're witch hunting. There is no value at all to the "new" Bosmer passive. In pve it's totally useless (even to me who has never messed with a Bosmer who uses stealth - I don't sneak or thieve or assassinate); in pvp it's not useful enough that people who have used the race in the past are still using it. NO ONE THINKS THIS RACIAL IS VALUABLE.

    Jeez. Speaking of not comprehending. How about you go read the whole of the thread?

    Oh right. You don't have the time.

    You’re not comprehending anything if I’m saying you’re not comprehending. It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?. There’s value in the speed and pen passive in pvp. As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else. You and others just like to speak for the entire community, as if people have to share the same opinions as you. It’s not valuable because you say so ? Got it lol

    If one person is having issues with comprehension, it may be them.
    If it's a whole thread of people, then maybe the issue is that you are not communicating effectively.

    I personally did not understand that "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind , making things either pointless, niche or valuable. The real culprit is balance," was supposed to mean "It’s valuable to whoever think it’s valuable, it’s pointless to whoever think it’s pointless and it’s niche to whoever think it’s niche. Therefore it can be all 3. Why is that hard to understand? The speed passive for example can be pointless to you, valuable to me and niche to someone else."


    The phrase "However, the issue is the fact it’s balanced with pve and pvp in mind...," can be read two ways. One: that the current set of all passives IS in perfect balance now for all modes of gameplay, or Two: that the devs made the effort to balance things while considering all modes of gameplay. Neither of these readings have anything to do with subjective values. That's a clarification you added later.

    "It’s my point you’re trying to understand, remember?" It's also your point that you are trying to get across.

    "As far as the other portion it’s not valuable to me but I’m sure it’s valuable to someone else." Well, hold on now. This is the whole point of the whole thread, and here you confess that you really don't care about the detection bit. As for anyone finding that bit to be useful, I seriously doubt it. We've had people go in Cyrodiil (or PVP at least, since it is completely useless outside of PVP by design) and test it. During the recent event in Cyrodiil, when PVE'ers were flooding into Cyrodiil and crying they were getting PVP'ed in PVP-land one of our regulars, who has the skill, saw an enemy hide in a delve waiting for the boss to spawn. So he tried to use his detection bonus to find that person. It failed. He had to use a magelight or camouflaged hunter or potion or something to actually detect the hidden enemy. I think Ratzkifal also did some testing (it may have been Wedgebert, not sure now) that showed that it was actually a detriment to hiding from a hidden enemy. The enemy would see a half-open detection eye before the Bosmer player would.

    Does this mean there is not one person in the whole world who would find that worthwhile? Well, no. People are stupid. No matter how stupid, useless, dangerous, or disgusting something may be there is some idiot, somewhere, who not only likes it but pays extra for it.

    Argumentum ad populum?

    But sure , I could’ve communicated more effectively, I chose to speak plainly though, which still doesn’t work well with over thinkers.

    Anyways it’s probably more people than you think that want the passive. They’re just not talking about it, yet. Me and other people didn’t think there was enough people who cared about faction lock but look how that turned out.


    Talking about this - Rank II - Medium Armor Rank 34

    Reduces the cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.

    Also reduces the size of your detection area by 5% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.

    Ok, this is where ZOS is crap at communicating. That's a hiding bonus, not a detection bonus. I hate, hate, hate the way ZOS describes the hide bonus as 'stealth detection radius decrease' and the detection bonus as 'stealth detection radius increase.' It's ambiguous as hell.

    I understand why people would want something more armor based in an armor skill line. It's also kind of nonsensical that you hide better in leather armor than clothing. It should be in the legerdemain line, but (as BlueRaven has pointed out) the only way to level that skill reliably is to have it already maxed out. If the skill were to be replaced by something sensible in another skill line, I'd be fine with it, but removing it without a replacement is a non-starter. I think it should be a legerdemain skill, +5% hiding bonus per medium armor, +7% per light armor; and the legerdemain skill line gets experience from current sources (picking locks, fencing, picking pockets) and from some kind of sneaking around thing, maybe from successfully attacking a hostile critter or something like that. The Skyrim method of levelling sneak by crouching behind a guard and going away for a few hours shouldn't be an option.

    Oh I thought it was a detect passive, never really used it to know. Their wording.
    I suspect that knowing this should adjust how much outrage you would think reverting the passive would generate. I suspect that if you had suggested removing the medium armor skill to another Bosmer they would have been horrified and very vehement: you were saying, 'hey Bosmer, how about we take away every skill that helps you hide.'
    I think the stealth buffs shouldn’t be a part of the race passives. Unless it’s stealth damage, they’re not important enough from a large scale point of view. However, I already thought that they belonged in the thief skillline. Race passives should favor more common gameplay, whether it’s in pve or pvp. If this was a single player game that would be a different story. I’m sure that’s the idea the devs had with the race balance, more flexible passives.
    I think they achieved that goal better with the Khajiit passive. The old passive was bad for both races in that if you didn't use stealth much or at all it was a dead passive. The new Khajiit passive still has the sneaking bonus, but also has a bonus to criticals.

    I think we should still have stealth bonus racials, just not the way it had been (where the whole passive was useless if you didn't use stealth) and not the way it is now (only one race can be effective thieves without gear swapping on the fly). So long as every passive has some use if you use stealth or not, wouldn't that be ok?
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • CatchMeTrolling
    CatchMeTrolling
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    I would answer that but I already did in this thread. But it’s clear a lot of you just skip over things or just agree with people just because, especially obvious when people are agreeing with the person who made the bosmer pvp comment when bosmer has been the least played and suggested stamina pvp class for years.
  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
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    ✭✭
    Koronach wrote: »
    We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
    Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.
    High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
    Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
    Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
    And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.

    So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.

    There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.

    They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.


    edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.

    Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.

    Let’s see:

    Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
    High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

    Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.

    Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
    Resist Disease 75% – Passive

    Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%

    Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.

    And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.



    NO, you're ignoring it because it completely negates your position.

    What has never changed from game to game is the central role of the race.

    Orcs have NEVER been particularly magical.
    Bretons have NEVER been particularly warrior like.

    And this can be done for each and every race.

    So, answer or acknowledge that you are wrong: to what thief ability do Bosmeri have a bonus now?

    Thanks for showing your bias. Zos should rightfully ignore you guys.

    This isn't Skyrim this is ESO with it's own lore. I asked in the other thread and I'll ask it again.

    Ok so do you have an explanation for this epic lore fail? https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462221/argonians-losing-their-resistance-to-poison-an-open-letter/p1

    tumblr_przn3mQOnE1wq1mxoo1_1280.png


    I'm still waiting for someone to defend ZoS on this change. Nobody even bothers to argue, because you can't defend it.

    There are other examples in dialogue where Bosmer are talking about how they are good at sneaking around, too. There's screenshots of it. And, yeah, the devs failed to consider their own ESO specific lore with some of these changes, specifically Argonian poison resistance and Bosmer stealth.
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Or you can go and convince ZOS that Bosmer can have stealth as well as detection, nothing is stopping you and none of us would oppose that as long it's a pure buff and nothing else gets taken away.

    I'd grumble a bit. If anyone should have the detection thing it is Orcs, by this game's internal lore.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
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    ✭✭
    In other news: faction lock appears to be a lifetime choice now. So, yeah. More excellent work there.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Night_Wolf2112
    Night_Wolf2112
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    Oh I thought it was a detect passive, never really used it to know. Their wording.
    [/quote]

    Said the guy who was being condescending to others for not comprehending!
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    They probably realized people could still farm AP by going 3-4 times into 7 day campaigns and then switching to 30 just before the end. Not sure how that works honestly.

    Not really stealth related, except that means since I am an EP PvP main, I won't get to use my Bosmer outside of Battlegrounds and IC anymore. Ironic, considering they are now designed around PvP.
    Edited by Ratzkifal on June 19, 2019 9:12PM
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • CatchMeTrolling
    CatchMeTrolling
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    Oh I thought it was a detect passive, never really used it to know. Their wording.

    Said the guy who was being condescending to others for not comprehending![/quote]

    That had nothing to do with comprehending but rather testing it, nice try.

  • CatchMeTrolling
    CatchMeTrolling
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Koronach wrote: »
    I would answer that but I already did in this thread. But it’s clear a lot of you just skip over things or just agree with people just because, especially obvious when people are agreeing with the person who made the bosmer pvp comment when bosmer has been the least played and suggested stamina pvp class for years.

    Your answer was just ZoS defensive white knighting. Also they haven't made up any lore to explain how Argonians magically stopped being resistant to poison while still supporting that they are in Elsweyr. Your answer is not a good excuse and just supports the devs just did a bad job and won't admit to it. Like I said you can't defend it. Also as this persons name implies I think they are just trolling trying to get everyone worked up to get the thread closed.

    How is it white knighting for telling the truth ? You guys really expect everyone to agree with your opinion, that’s why I said zos should ignore you. What’s white knighting about saying the lore constantly changes when that’s what actually happens with zos and Bethesda? You don’t like it then stop playing their games but don’t sit here and act like it’s new . Elder scrolls online is filled with lore breaking things and guess what, the devs will justify it whether you or I like it or not. That’s not knighting that’s the simple truth. I never agreed or disagreed with them and have plenty of posts calling them out, stop feeling so entitled.

    Edited by CatchMeTrolling on June 19, 2019 9:21PM
This discussion has been closed.