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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    Uryel wrote: »
    Well, using Skyrim as the main source of lore is yet another flaw of concept, but hey... Can't blame them for using their best seller as an inspiration. Still, if you MUST remove one resist, disease it should be. There are lots of dialogues in which argonians mention eating poisonous things, especially in Murkmire, but I can also think of Green-Venom-Tongue in dark Brotherhood. I don't remember so much for illness. On the other hand, there is a questline in Grahtwood where (spoilers !) Bosmers poison themselves so that when their enemies kill them and eat their corpses, they will die of poisoning. So, they are not immune to poison at all. Giving them immunity to disease wouldn't contradict that.

    There are actually plenty of examples for Argonians being immune to diseases. The Knahaten flu killed all the Kothringi and Lilmothiit but not the Argonians, leaving Blackmarsh uncontested for them. Although I haven't found the source for it, I vaguely remember the Knahaten Flu spreading in Valenwood as well. The Thrassian plague definitely spread through Valenwood though and lead to the Bosmer joining the second empire. The case of the resistances is nowhere near as clear as the stealth case. My idea to solve this and keep each of them unique was to give Bosmer both resistances and Argonians either resistance depending on what they get hit by at a higher value to show that they can adapt to any environment while leaving them vulnerable to what they didn't adapt to at that time.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Ratzkifal
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    My very first ESO character was a Bosmer nightblade. The choice to play a Bosmer nightblade, as opposed to something else, used to mean something both for my chosen play-style and the role I wanted to play in the broader story of ESO. Reading this thread, it's obvious how many people recognize that the changes to the Bosmer break lore. Playing any TES game other than ESO, it's also obvious. It seems like no one at ZOS actually played TES other than maybe Skyrim or plays ESO, though.

    So, my question is does ZOS understands how to balance:
    • play as you want
      with
    • every race has a unique flavor?

    Part of the problem is that we don't have individual D&D or D20 type player stats (rather than 'attributes') and instead have a system that rewards shoving everything into one resource and allows you to reset attributes as needed. The reason why this matters is because of how 'racial' differences work IRL (I'm going to use nationality instead of race just to avoid stirring the pot too much, but even with traditionally designated racial groups it'd work the same way):
    • First, how big are the differences? The average height of adult Canadian men is 175.1 cm and of adult American men is 175.5 cm. There just isn't that much of a difference to begin with.
    • Second, if the variation within a group is greater than the variation between groups, the difference is essentially meaningless. It's only when the variation between groups is greater that variation within them that we seem to have a racial trait. That little .4cm difference between Canadians and Americans is nothing when compared to the ~36 cm range between the first and 99th percentiles within each population.
    • Third, there may be other factors that better explain differences. In the case of Canadian and American heights, gender correlates much more than nationality. Even then, however, the difference in heights between 50th percentile men and women (~13cm in Canada and ~14cm in the United States) is still much less than the height variation within genders (~36 cm for men and ~33cm for women in the US, ~36cm for men and ~35 cm for women in Canada). So, even though gender does a better job explaining difference, we have plenty of short guys and tall women, enough to make those averages still more-or-less meaningless.

    So why does this matter to ESO? Because there is essentially zero variation within races (most of which comes from gear, consumables, and class-based skills). That means that the there is no possibility of playing a clumsy Khajit, a physically weak Orc, a magically attuned Nord, or a beefy Altmer— even though our real-life experience (and ton of examples from the game and the lore) insist that must be possible.

    We cannot play as we want; we can only play as we want within the constraints that ZOS provides. If race provided a starting point but we also had individual stats that allowed greater variation within than between races, we'd have a situation where each race would still have a unique flavor but you could also play as you wanted to. Because we don't have individual stats, ZOS has tried to make every race capable of playing both stamina and magicka versions of every class. Sure we can play as we want as far as combat roles, but all it has done is wipe out one of the only viable sources of identity.

    Yes, IRL, supposed racial differences are usually complete BS, but in a game without stats what are we left with when that identity is stripped away? Is it now all about class and gear?

    And what if ZOS were to wield the nerfhammer to strip away class identity? What then?

    @TokenIntellect I really like your idea. In an alternate reality where ESO works differently, I'd say racial passives should give you a boost to certain stat rolls. That still lets you be a magical Orc if you roll well, but the odds of you being good at the stereo type are increased, making racial choice not meaningless. If I ever run a tabletop RPG set in the TES universe, that's probably how I'd make stat rolls.

    Unfortunately I feel that this just can't really work for the type of game that ESO is. Looking at Morrowind, the only attributes that translate somehow are Strength (weapon damage, health, stamina, carry capacity), Endurance (stamina, health, stam regen, sprint cost), Agility (stamina, weapon crit, dodge, sneak and breakfree cost), Willpower (spell crit, spellresist) and Intelligence (magicka, magicka regen, spell damage).
    Personality, Speed and Luck just don't translate into any stat at all. Speed could be a new stat of course, but ESO currently only makes use of it in the Orc and Bosmer passives as well as swift trait and certain niche gear sets or medium armor bonus. All of these are rare large static buffs though, unlike regeneration, crit or damage, so all characters generally run at the same speed. You could count Luck as your crit chance of course but I'd say the way Willpower and Agility are more important for that and make the distinction between stam and mag better.
    That being said, there are still stats completely missing, like physical resist, health regen and penetration and crit damage. We'd have to move to a completely new attribute system with things like Versatility and Dexterity if we'd want to make it work in ESO. That's not really easy to implement and also not very transparent to new players. Because of that and because RNG sucks and people would just create new characters until they got "a good one", a system like that could never work for ESO.

    That being said, races need to represent the stereotype as they wouldn't be racial passives anymore otherwise. They would be "choose your destiny" and your race choice wouldn't matter. I personally don't like it if race choices don't matter.
    It's good that we are allowed to play whatever we want still and that the game even allows interesting options for offmeta picks sometimes, namely Breton stamblades getting to cloak often or Redguard tanks getting cheaper shield ults with stamina sustain.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Ratzkifal
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    If they are set on "Play as you want" homgenization instead of arbitrary flat rates of fixed stats, they should give us sliders at character creation, so we can choose how we want to make our characters. Make sliders for magicka, stamina, penetration, various resistances, dodge chance, stealth radius, stealth detection, etc. and have it scale up with level. Like this:


    Plus Magicka...........0 - - - -[]- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2000
    Plus Stamina...........0 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -[] 2000
    Stealth Radius.........0 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -[] 3m
    Stealth Detection.....0 []- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 3m
    Poison Resistance...0 - - - - - - - - - -[]- - - - - - - - - Immune
    Spell Penetration.....0 -[]- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2000


    and so forth....... and just give you 3 full slides worth of choice. So if you want to play a Bosmer (or Khajiit, Altmer, Dunmer, etc) thief, you can...... at the cost of perhaps not being the best PvPer or whatever. And then have a respec option like you do for CP, attributes, and skill points. Or even sell racial passive reset tokens in the crown store if they want to monetize it. If you can respec it, then no one would ever be able to complain about their racial passives again.


    You can totally reset everything else about your character, so why not inherent passives as well?

    As much as I like the freedom of that proposal, I don't think this is the way to go. Racial choice should be meaningful in more ways than just purely cosmetic. Bretons, Imperials and Nord are so close to each other appearancewise that it doesn't even make sense to keep them separate in character creation apart from the alliance if their stat choices are the same.
    Maybe if we take races as the baseline for stats and add/subtract from those stats on your system. But then again, people would say X is BiS and take X for this build/role. Ultimately it probably comes down to content difficulty. Racial balance wouldn't be an issue if a magicka Orc could be just as useful for vet content, then there would be no need for someone to say "you are not BiS because your race sucks". Too bad that it would also mean that content becomes more/too casual...
    Balancing an MMO is hard.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Jaraal
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Racial choice should be meaningful in more ways than just purely cosmetic.

    I absolutely agree, but since ZOS has decided that traditional racial roles (ie: Bosmer being universally known for being stealthy) are no longer important, then make them all unimportant, and let the player decide the racial role for their character. Why should one or two races have their core values dismissed, but the rest left intact? Doesn't seem very balanced to me.

    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • Ratzkifal
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Racial choice should be meaningful in more ways than just purely cosmetic.

    I absolutely agree, but since ZOS has decided that traditional racial roles (ie: Bosmer being universally known for being stealthy) are no longer important, then make them all unimportant, and let the player decide the racial role for their character. Why should one or two races have their core values dismissed, but the rest left intact? Doesn't seem very balanced to me.

    Under that premise I agree with you fully. I am just not ready to accept that premise as reality and trend for the future yet.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • BlueRaven
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Racial choice should be meaningful in more ways than just purely cosmetic.

    I absolutely agree, but since ZOS has decided that traditional racial roles (ie: Bosmer being universally known for being stealthy) are no longer important, then make them all unimportant, and let the player decide the racial role for their character. Why should one or two races have their core values dismissed, but the rest left intact? Doesn't seem very balanced to me.

    Under that premise I agree with you fully. I am just not ready to accept that premise as reality and trend for the future yet.

    And the other thing that stands out about this: Why does one race have a passive that only works in PvP? Why don't all the other races have PvP only racial passives? It's like someone has something against Bosmer PvE players, specifically. And yet, no one will step forward to explain the reasoning behind such drastic and one-sided changes.

    I think that is what really irks me the most. The whole hunters passive does not make a lot of sense until you put it into a PvP environment. For PvE it provides so little benefit it may as well not exist.
  • wedgebert
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Under that premise I agree with you fully. I am just not ready to accept that premise as reality and trend for the future yet.

    And the other thing that stands out about this: Why does one race have a passive that only works in PvP? Why don't all the other races have PvP only racial passives? It's like someone has something against Bosmer PvE players, specifically. And yet, no one will step forward to explain the reasoning behind such drastic and one-sided changes.[/quote]

    To be "fair", the Altmer Spell Recharge is also primarily PvP. It's got a little PvE use with the reduced damage while channeling, but the main focus of stamina recharge is only really useful in PvE if you're learning fights and have to dodge/block more than you should. Once you learn the mechanics, stamina becomes much less of an issue.

    Although that leads to a different point, even if a whole two races have PvP focused talents (which is stupid since most content is PvE), why are both of them Aldemeri Covenant? Either ZOS doesn't like/care about AD or it's a hamfisted way to try to buff AD in PvP (since I usually see us losing in Cyrodiil)
  • max_only
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    Small interjection but I called it:
    max_only wrote: »
    For every quitter there are 10 furries and their significant other signing up hyped about Khajiit land.
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/473590/elswyr-2019-which-platform-for-a-casual-couple/p1
    NB: I am not against furries and it is not a negative connotation when I use that word, that is the word they use to describe themselves. It’s just another preference like dressing up as a maid or nurse and I support consenting adults 100%. Also I have no evidence that the poster is a furry, I’m “calling” the part where couples are signing up.
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • wedgebert
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    wedgebert wrote: »
    To be "fair", the Altmer Spell Recharge is also primarily PvP. It's got a little PvE use with the reduced damage while channeling, but the main focus of stamina recharge is only really useful in PvE if you're learning fights and have to dodge/block more than you should. Once you learn the mechanics, stamina becomes much less of an issue.

    But this passive is useful in simple situations like sprinting to harvest materials, sneaking, and other non-PvP situations. For Bosmer, trying to detect PvE enemies that "can't be bothered to hide" in the first place is just an insult.

    That's why I said primarily PvP. You can get a minor benefit out if it elsewhere, but no one is going to play an Altmer on the basis of being the fastest magicka harvesting race

  • Sylvermynx
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    I wouldn't be opposed to having a racial passive for each race that only mattered in pvp as long as they felt appropriate. But having what is assumed to be at least 1 or 0.5 set piece bonuses worth of racial passive in the set piece calculation be only beneficial (and as we know it isn't in stealth vs stealth situations) in PvP is wasted potential.

    In a play-the-way-you-want game, the boni granted by different sources should tied differently strong to specilization.
    Race choice is the first choice you make in the game. After that, ideally you should still have all options for playstyle available to you or at least have chosen a general direction. The next choices are gear weight and weapon type, which narrow down your options to a specific role. And lastly you choose your sets, which largely determine the content that you will be doing.
    A detection bonus is so specific to PvP that every player who wishes to play on a race with a detection bonus is making the choice to either PvP or not PvP and sacrifice a 0.5 - 1 item set bonus for no good reason.
    It's obviously not the end of the world and it's possible ZOS calculated the bonus as 0 to prevent this unfairness, but it still feels kind of wrong if only one race gets this treatment. A new player is certainly not making the choice to PvP or not at character creation, so if the passive serves no purpose in PvE (and is agains the lore!) it should not be part of the racial passives at all and make room for something more useful.

    I do have to enter a caveat though Ratz - the first choice I make in ESO is class. I usually have a broad idea of what I want to play and how - so class is in my mind first. Then I select race (and boy do I have a lot of AD around already.... and almost as many DC; EP is my shortfall....); and then I start customizing beginning with height, then go on to face before finishing body.

    Yeah, I think I don't do it the way most do....
  • Night_Wolf2112
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    I think the best way to do passives is - make a list of 12 or so;
    2 magicka (max or regen), 2 stamina (max or regen), 2 weapon crit, 2 spell crit, 2 dmg resist (phys & spell), 2 miscellaneous (stealth & speed)

    And, everyone gets to pick any combination of 3 or 4.

    Or something along those lines.
  • max_only
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    I think the best way to do passives is - make a list of 12 or so;
    2 magicka (max or regen), 2 stamina (max or regen), 2 weapon crit, 2 spell crit, 2 dmg resist (phys & spell), 2 miscellaneous (stealth & speed)

    And, everyone gets to pick any combination of 3 or 4.

    Or something along those lines.

    There are always good ideas about decoupling the passives from the race. Min maxers will always choose the same 3 or four and we’d be back to the beginning that some passives are just plain useless.p
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • Uryel
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    max_only wrote: »
    There are always good ideas about decoupling the passives from the race. Min maxers will always choose the same 3 or four and we’d be back to the beginning that some passives are just plain useless.p

    Buty we wouldn't be stuck with them.



    Allright, I'm a bit late, but I was indeed wrong. Checked the values ingame, and yep, the wiki is off. Again. And I can't even set it right, I can't be rsed creating an account and can't edit as anonymous user.

    Nords get +1000 HP, Imperials +2000, and Dunmers get shafted with 0 bonus ressource, just the resists.

    Even taking the whole racials into account, I don't like that. It doesn't FEEL balanced. Maybe it is, but it doesn't feel that way. Like Raz would say, I smell something and it's not moon sugar biscuits.
    max_only wrote: »
    Bosmers sneaking past all the dangers in the woods. Come upon a cultist doing a ritual? Sneak past. Come upon a brigand ambush? Sneak past. Come upon a mighty beast? Sneak past. The feeling of “yesssss” when you can squeeze by in tight spaces unnoticed. Sometimes I’m able to take what I need from right under their noses.
  • BlueRaven
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    max_only wrote: »
    I think the best way to do passives is - make a list of 12 or so;
    2 magicka (max or regen), 2 stamina (max or regen), 2 weapon crit, 2 spell crit, 2 dmg resist (phys & spell), 2 miscellaneous (stealth & speed)

    And, everyone gets to pick any combination of 3 or 4.

    Or something along those lines.

    There are always good ideas about decoupling the passives from the race. Min maxers will always choose the same 3 or four and we’d be back to the beginning that some passives are just plain useless.p

    Yeah this is what happened in World of Warcraft. Every couple of levels they would give you a choice of one of 3 spells/abilities to learn. And inevitably the community would settle on which one was the best, so there was not really a choice per se, just the ability to make a mistake.

    And also if they did that people would want to have "race respeccing" which is just wrong.

    I wish the passives for the races in this game were handled the same way that they were in games like Skyrim. Just give advantages to the races that others can get with enough experience.

    Imagine instead of +15% to bows, wood elves started with a few levels completed of the bow tree. And if there was a sneak tree they could have started with a few levels already completed in it. Just like in skyrim how they started with "+10 to Archery" or "+5 to sneak".

    Because that's what I think I miss the most from the standard ES games, the ability to choose any race and basically do anything I want to with them. If I wanted to make a stealthy master archer or a great mage, I could do that and still choose any race I wanted. Thats just not possible in ESO because races and builds are so intertwined.
  • Ratzkifal
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    Eiron77 wrote: »
    Elsweyr will go live in three to four days now

    Does it? Wish I could've been hyped for it, but now I find that I really don't care all that much...

    On PC it does anyway. I mostly lost the hype for it. I still want to see the zone and play the story, I still want to play a Necromancer and the trial sounds exciting and I'd love to run it.
    But I can't change my pretend necromancer I had for years to an actual Necromancer, my Bosmer got degraded from being a sneaky archer to being an honourable one and thus is less fun, and the rest of my characters aren't really fitting for the content (thematically) apart from maybe my Khajiit who badly needs his backstory figured out.
    The only excitement that I have left is pretty much the new trial and the tank set, because enchants on onehanded weapons were nerfed and I refuse to use a Frost staff for tanking, so Torug's has become useless to me. That and the cat assistants, but those are going to be expensive anyway, so nevermind.

    I might break the boycot and play a Necro on NA where I would recreate my original Necro without making a dublicate, but other than that, there are little options for me. I would have played on my sneaky Bosmer if I was allowed to. Too bad there are no sneaky Bosmer anymore.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Jaraal
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    @Jaraal Or at least update their costume descriptions.

    47069868264_0c250d0d45_b.jpg

    Almost invisible? That sounds OP as hell! Please nerf that costume because I play PvP ... or something. Oh and Khajiit are fine btw, keep them as they are.

    Could be exactly why they gutted Bosmer stealth. Altmer magsorcs were putting on this costume and blowing people up in PvP, helpless victims only saw the wood elf look from far away, complained "Nerf Bosmer!!! 😭", and here we are.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
This discussion has been closed.