Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Left4Daud

I mean it’s kind of broken in my opinion, but they proved they were aware of this “issue” during the Wrathstone PTS when they addressed the initial Khajiit racial change (which allowed the same level of stealth tomfoolery).

Based on that I’d have to imagine it’s “working as intended.”

Jaraal

There used to be a stealth radius hard cap, where Bosmer and Khajiit got no extra benefit from wearing 2 reduction sets, and you would get detected by guards at the same distance wearing just one set. That's why they were best to play as thieves, because you could equip a sneak speed penalty set at no cost of detection.

Apparently, when they got rid of the Stealthy passive for both races, they changed the way stealth radius is calculated with the new Khajiit Feline Ambush passive. None of this was possible before the revamp. So, instead of having two of the ten races that were pretty good at stealth, they cut it down to one race that is overpowered at it.

But, since the naysayers keep coming in here proclaiming that ZOS is 'happy with the new racials', then I will dress all my Khajiit thieves in three sets and my Bosmer main will keep loging in once a day to do writs. And I will still come in here and protest how they threw my guy under the bus and made liars out of all these quest NPCs who still believe that wood elves are the masters of stealth.

Avran_Sylt

BOSMER - The agile hunter

• Acrobat => Keen Eye
• • Bow Bonus
  • (Remove Falldamage Bonus)
  • 3m increase to Stealth Detection
• Hunter's Eye => Hunter's Guile
• • (Remove Stealth Detection)
  • 3m reduction to Detection Radius while in Stealth
  • Rolldodge Stuff

KHAJIIT - The curio collector

• Cutpurse
• • Medium Armor Bonus
  • Keep Pickpocket Chance
  • Add 5% increase to Fence sales

darthgummibear_ESO

Are they ever going to address this? It's total crap that they completely screwed over bosmer players just to make Khajit look better for the dlc. I'll never play khajit...I don't like animorphic races, and I don't want a tail. Give my bosmer stealth back.

Ratzkifal

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

BOSMER - The agile hunter

• Acrobat => Keen Eye
• • Bow Bonus
  • (Remove Falldamage Bonus)
  • 3m increase to Stealth Detection
• Hunter's Eye => Hunter's Guile
• • (Remove Stealth Detection)
  • 3m reduction to Detection Radius while in Stealth
  • Rolldodge Stuff

KHAJIIT - The curio collector

• Cutpurse
• • Medium Armor Bonus
  • Keep Pickpocket Chance
  • Add 5% increase to Fence sales

Yes, that sounds great. Bosmer were never as good at Acrobatics as Khajiit and even though taking reduced fall damage is testament to knowing their way around high places, not falling in the first place is more in line with them I feel, so I wouldn't be too bummed out over it.

Alternatively to the fence sales, Khajiit could also get more fence interactions per day because they are so charming the fence can't say no. I'd be really happy with either of those.

Kadoin

This thread makes me to know people are still crying about this change. It really does.

Cundu_Ertur

Thanks for the bump!

KMarble

Alaya wrote: »

https://youtu.be/tPO6dg3Dyec

On a scale of 1 to broken, how broken is this? User is wearing 5 for Night Mother's Embrace, 4 for Vesture of Darloc Brae, and 3 for Night Terror. It's not the sets that are broken, it's the fact that only Khajiit can get away with this.

What a surprise! Not. It's even worse than what I predicted some time ago.

This is really bad news, no matter how they "fix" it, someone will lose.
Assuming that what has been said in the forum is true, the devs have no intention of messing with racial skill lines any time soon,, so they'd have to lower the radius given by the new set to maybe 1m, which is basically useless to any race other than Khajiit, and even so, the gain is so small it might not be worth using the set.

The other option they have is to take 2m out of the Khajiit racial, meaning that they too will have a mostly useless racial skill.

There is a third less likely scenario, where they'd rework that set and give it completely different bonuses. Or just take it off the game all together. I don't see this happening.

Bottom line is, unless they revert the stealth on wood elves, people playing them will never get the same radius as we had before.

Sorry to keep on bothering you, @ZOS_GinaBruno , but could you please let the devs know about the video above?

Left4Daud wrote: »

I mean it’s kind of broken in my opinion, but they proved they were aware of this “issue” during the Wrathstone PTS when they addressed the initial Khajiit racial change (which allowed the same level of stealth tomfoolery).

Based on that I’d have to imagine it’s “working as intended.”

But that was fixed. They lowered their max stealth from 5m to 3m.

I disagree with it being "kind of broken". When the char can stand up and wave on the face of a guard with a bounty, it's completely broken.

Ratzkifal

KMarble wrote: »

Alaya wrote: »

https://youtu.be/tPO6dg3Dyec

On a scale of 1 to broken, how broken is this? User is wearing 5 for Night Mother's Embrace, 4 for Vesture of Darloc Brae, and 3 for Night Terror. It's not the sets that are broken, it's the fact that only Khajiit can get away with this.

What a surprise! Not. It's even worse than what I predicted some time ago.

This is really bad news, no matter how they "fix" it.
Assuming that what has been said in the forum is true, the devs have no intention of messing with racial skill lines any time soon,, so they'd have to lower the radius given by the new set to maybe 1m, which is basically useless to any race other than Khajiit, and even so, the gain is so small it might not be worth using the set.

The other option they have is to take 2m out of the Khajiit racial, meaning that they too will have a mostly useless racial skill.

There is a third less likely scenario, where they'd rework that set and give it completely different bonuses. Or just take it off the game all together. I don't see this happening.

Bottom line is, unless they revert the stealth on wood elves, people playing them will never get the same radius as we had before.

Sorry to keep on bothering you, @ZOS_GinaBruno , but could you please let the devs know about the video above?

Left4Daud wrote: »

I mean it’s kind of broken in my opinion, but they proved they were aware of this “issue” during the Wrathstone PTS when they addressed the initial Khajiit racial change (which allowed the same level of stealth tomfoolery).

Based on that I’d have to imagine it’s “working as intended.”

But that was fixed. They lowered their max stealth from 5m to 3m.

I disagree with it being "kind of broken". When the char can stand up and wave on the face of a guard with a bounty, it's completely broken.

I mean, there is also the option of introducing a cap to stealth radius so that you can only ever get a maximum bonus of 7m. That wouldn't require any changes to racials or sets. Or they could turn those radii into named buffs so only major and minor whatever-it's-called stack.

Left4Daud

@KMarble

If it's "working as intended" it's fundamentally not broken, by definition. You could argue that it's unbalanced. But it's not actually broken.

For the record, I was the poster/tester that initially brought Khajiit super stealth stacking to light back during the Wrathstone PTS, which prompted the devs to make the following changes:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Khajiit

Feline Ambush: Decreased the reduction of your Stealth radius to 3m from 5m.

Developer Comment:

With the introduction of CP scaling with the flat stats of the races, we made sure to make some minor adjustments so Khajiit wouldn't fall behind the other races. The bonus to the stealth radius was also slightly over tuned and allowed you to sneak too effectively. Now, you shouldn't be able to sneak in the face of guards and wave unless you've heavily invested into sneaking with gear and other passives.

You shouldn't be able to sneak in the face of guards and wave unless you've heavily invested into sneaking with gear and other passives.

That is from the devs themselves.

It's working as intended.

Jaraal

Left4Daud wrote: »

You shouldn't be able to sneak in the face of guards and wave unless you've heavily invested into sneaking with gear and other passives.

That is from the devs themselves.

It's working as intended.

This thread is really about loss of Bosmer lore and playstyle that characters were specifically created for being stripped, but that is indeed telling as to this amount of stealth being intentional.

My guess is that once Elsweyr sales drop off and people are no longer forced to embrace the Khajiit experience to be truly stealthy, they will detune it, like they did with the introduction of Swift with Summerset and the subsequent nerfing thereof.

Alucardmike

If this was only made for the Elsweyr DLC, I hope for a Falinesti DLC. Perhaps then we could get our stealth back.

RogueShark

Love people who say khajiit should lose their stealth bonus and it should be given exclusively to bosmer.

You realize this is just saying you don't care if another race loses something you think is lorebreaking gamebreaking and important as long as it doesn't affect your favored race?
Wot.

They should both just have the damn passive. ZoS is silly for cherry-picking in this instance.

Ratzkifal

RogueShark wrote: »

Love people who say khajiit should lose their stealth bonus and it should be given exclusively to bosmer.

You realize this is just saying you don't care if another race loses something you think is lorebreaking gamebreaking and important as long as it doesn't affect your favored race?
Wot.

They should both just have the damn passive. ZoS is silly for cherry-picking in this instance.

Luckily I haven't seen anyone advocate for anything like that in here or other threads. Our mantra was always to "not taking from others to get what we want".
But ZOS is indeed silly because their patch essentially said "Khajiit are the only acceptable stealth race. If your Bosmer is sneaky, you are playing your Bosmer wrong".

Cundu_Ertur

RogueShark wrote: »

Love people who say khajiit should lose their stealth bonus and it should be given exclusively to bosmer.

You realize this is just saying you don't care if another race loses something you think is lorebreaking gamebreaking and important as long as it doesn't affect your favored race?
Wot.

They should both just have the damn passive. ZoS is silly for cherry-picking in this instance.

Agree with your ending, and I've argued that Argonians should have something stealth related, too, even if a bit less than Khajiit and Bosmer.

However, I haven't seen anyone call for Khajiit to lose stealth so I disagree with the rest of what you write. The first time I saw what Avran_Sylt posted I thought that was calling for a nerf to Khajiit, and I was going to comment on that, but upon re-reading it I saw that the proposed change for Khajiit was to only increase their fences per day with no change to stealth.

Jaraal

RogueShark wrote: »

Love people who say khajiit should lose their stealth bonus and it should be given exclusively to bosmer.

Well, thankfully no one has said that yet in 69 pages. I, for one would be totally against that, as I have five full time Khajiit thieves and I would be just as upset if their lore were rewritten as Bosmer's has been. Khajiit and Bosmer have always been considered stealthy races, and to a lesser extent, Dunmer and Argonian as well. Would not bother me at all to see more than two races with stealth bonuses.

RogueShark

Ratzkifal wrote: »

RogueShark wrote: »

Love people who say khajiit should lose their stealth bonus and it should be given exclusively to bosmer.

You realize this is just saying you don't care if another race loses something you think is lorebreaking gamebreaking and important as long as it doesn't affect your favored race?
Wot.

They should both just have the damn passive. ZoS is silly for cherry-picking in this instance.

Luckily I haven't seen anyone advocate for anything like that in here or other threads. Our mantra was always to "not taking from others to get what we want".
But ZOS is indeed silly because their patch essentially said "Khajiit are the only acceptable stealth race. If your Bosmer is sneaky, you are playing your Bosmer wrong".

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

BOSMER - The agile hunter

• Acrobat => Keen Eye
• • Bow Bonus
  • (Remove Falldamage Bonus)
  • 3m increase to Stealth Detection
• Hunter's Eye => Hunter's Guile
• • (Remove Stealth Detection)
  • 3m reduction to Detection Radius while in Stealth
  • Rolldodge Stuff

KHAJIIT - The curio collector

• Cutpurse
• • Medium Armor Bonus
  • Keep Pickpocket Chance
  • Add 5% increase to Fence sales

Yes, that sounds great. Bosmer were never as good at Acrobatics as Khajiit and even though taking reduced fall damage is testament to knowing their way around high places, not falling in the first place is more in line with them I feel, so I wouldn't be too bummed out over it.

Alternatively to the fence sales, Khajiit could also get more fence interactions per day because they are so charming the fence can't say no. I'd be really happy with either of those.

Now it's possible I misinterpreted, but it looks like to tske stealth and just give them fencing.
Whatever the case, zos dropped the ball with bosmer racials entirely. Even their rolldodge mechanic is silly. Who wastes stam rolldodging around for more pen?

Cundu_Ertur

...And?
Avran_Sylt doesn't call for any change to Khajiit stealth. Feline ambush is the skill that has stealth in it, and that isn't even mentioned. The proposal is to add a fencing bonus (how much per sale , not more sales as I initially thought) to the basic free racial.

RogueShark

If I was wrong about my interpretation, I think it can be forgiven considering just slapping fencing bonuses on khajiit cutpurse racial literally makes it the only racial of that tier to have multiple effects beyond a skil line gain and something else for fluff. Which makes it seem like it was a suggestion to replace stealth, because why else would you slap some other racial there?
It would be better to just swap bosmer detection for stealth. Even trade, no confusing touches to racials that are fine for anyone else.

Jaraal

This was my idea for an armor set:

Jaraal wrote: »

Velsa's Armor of the Illustrious Launderer. (medium)

(2 items) Adds 1200 Maximum Stamina
(3 items) Adds 250 Stamina Recovery
(4 items) Adds 400 Weapon Critical
(4 items) Grants Minor Expedition at all times.
(5 items) Doubles the number of items you can sell to a fence per day (if worn for the last 24 hours)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5233723/#Comment_5233723

BlueRaven

Yeah, I have not seen anyone argue that kahjit stealth should be taken away. I would say that along with kahjit and wood elves, dark elves and argonians have a case for a stealth bonus passive as well.

Avran_Sylt

@Ratzkifal

So what kinda number of fence interactions?

Like +10 ? Or just +5.

Red_Feather

I can't believe nothing has been done and this topic is still always a hot topic.

And I just can't forget the example showing how stealth detection makes a wood elf easier to spot by stealthed players. So it's a handicap and I never put points into it. 🤣

BlueRaven

Red_Feather wrote: »

I can't believe nothing has been done and this topic is still always a hot topic.

And I just can't forget the example showing how stealth detection makes a wood elf easier to spot by stealthed players. So it's a handicap and I never put points into it. 🤣

Yeah I kept my two bosmers and neither of them have points in hunters eye.

My Bosmer stamblade may have lost her spot in our vet trial runs, but I can’t change her. I really hope she can get her stealth back soon so I can use her the way I used to.

Cundu_Ertur

4 Bosmeri. 0 points in Hunter's Eye.

Cundu_Ertur

RogueShark wrote: »

If I was wrong about my interpretation, I think it can be forgiven considering just slapping fencing bonuses on khajiit cutpurse racial literally makes it the only racial of that tier to have multiple effects beyond a skil line gain and something else for fluff. Which makes it seem like it was a suggestion to replace stealth, because why else would you slap some other racial there?
It would be better to just swap bosmer detection for stealth. Even trade, no confusing touches to racials that are fine for anyone else.

I think it was to make Khajiit feel better about no longer being the only possible choice for a stealthy character.

thegreatme

Jaraal wrote: »

or to gimp Bosmer to force people to like Khajiits and thus be more inclined to purchase the Khajiit expansion, then all the more egregious. And then top it off with completely ignoring any concerned dialogue about it, and it's just a really bad deal all around.

From what all of my friends are saying, they'd be more inclined to care about Elswyer and khajiit if ESO made it possible to play as various different Khajiit races like Cathay-Raht than nerfing Bosmer will ever do for them so...

Kinda feels like ZoS has this idea that if they want us to try something new, they have to take away what we like in order to force us to like their newest thing better instead... and if that's the case, its bad practice. They'd do a lot better to build their new things up rather than take what we're comfortable with away.

Jaraal wrote: »

cameronmccrwb17_ESO wrote: »

I've started playing in Elsweyr and so far, on a non-Bosmer character, I haven't seen any content where stealth detection would be an advantage. Anyone else seen a situation where it would have helped?

Yes, when you spend 90% of your game time (like me) stealing for a living.

I've made tens of millions of gold from being stealthy, and all that money goes into purchasing blueprints and materials to create furnishings for all my homes. But ZoS is not concerned with players like me, they are only concerned with chasing a constantly moving target of mythical PvP balance, at the expense of the majority of PvE players. It hardly makes financial sense to make parts of the game unattractive to the most players, but what do I know. I assume they have marketing gurus..... but it seems strange to make your game most appealing to a smaller segment of your customers at the expense of everyone else. And yet, with that said, I don't think I've seen an increase in the number of "Wow ZOS you've really made PvP fair for everyone!" threads. Seems like more of the same "Nerf Sorcs", "NB gankers still out of control", "Wardens still overlooked" and so forth threads filling up the PvP and test server forums. So whatever balance they are chasing doesn't seem to have been achieved with the 'new and improved' racial passives.

So long as someone is losing, someone somewhere is throwing a tantrum, which means someone is always whining. There's a famous phrase, "You can't make everyone happy". Well you certainly don't fix that problem by making even more people unhappy.

I'm almost betting my game gold a lot of the people complaining about Stealth Gankers who are just happy for this change are the same people who say "L2P" and "Adapt" as soon as they get what they want. Why weren't you L2Ping and adapting when the odds were against you then?

Jaraal

thegreatme wrote: »

I'm almost betting my game gold a lot of the people complaining about Stealth Gankers who are just happy for this change are the same people who say "L2P" and "Adapt" as soon as they get what they want. Why weren't you L2Ping and adapting when the odds were against you then?

Well, they did remove the 10% bonus damage from stealth that both Khajiit and Bosmer had before the revamp. But if they wanted to remove the whole surprise attack thing people have been complaining about since the beginning, they would have removed all stealth bonuses. Instead, they just forced people who enjoy that playstyle to abandon all the time and skill points they invested in Bosmer characters, and either start over from scratch with Khajiit or use the race change tokens to make your person something you never intended in the first place.

And, yeah. It doesn't matter what PvP strategy they nerf..... people will always come up with a new way to grief and dominate the enemy. Somebody will always be complaining about that which they have not yet learned to counter. But why would they trash decades of lore to make a change that doesn't get rid of the stealth ganker playstyle at all? And if the new set stacking bonus makes Khajiit completely invisible to guards, then how are the gank victims going to react to an enemy they will never be able to see in the first place? Maybe they will have to counter with a Bosmer sentry...... but wait.... stealth detection doesn't even work, and makes Bosmer easier to kill, so I guess that throws that idea out the window.

Ratzkifal

Jaraal wrote: »

thegreatme wrote: »

I'm almost betting my game gold a lot of the people complaining about Stealth Gankers who are just happy for this change are the same people who say "L2P" and "Adapt" as soon as they get what they want. Why weren't you L2Ping and adapting when the odds were against you then?

Well, they did remove the 10% bonus damage from stealth that both Khajiit and Bosmer had before the revamp. But if they wanted to remove the whole surprise attack thing people have been complaining about since the beginning, they would have removed all stealth bonuses. Instead, they just forced people who enjoy that playstyle to abandon all the time and skill points they invested in Bosmer characters, and either start over from scratch with Khajiit or use the race change tokens to make your person something you never intended in the first place.

And, yeah. It doesn't matter what PvP strategy they nerf..... people will always come up with a new way to grief and dominate the enemy. Somebody will always be complaining about that which they have not yet learned to counter. But why would they trash decades of lore to make a change that doesn't get rid of the stealth ganker playstyle at all? And if the new set stacking bonus makes Khajiit completely invisible to guards, then how are the gank victims going to react to an enemy they will never be able to see in the first place? Maybe they will have to counter with a Bosmer sentry...... but wait.... stealth detection doesn't even work, and makes Bosmer easier to kill, so I guess that throws that idea out the window.

Well, ZOS probably thinks it's okay for a Khajiit to run around in pvp like that since they sacrificed all their damage for it and people can use detection potions after the first attack revealed them.
Bosmer sentries do work against that build because the passive does work but it's bad. 3 meters are nothing in ESO as we know from the radius it penetrates cloak on. But far more important in this is that Bosmer and Khajiit are on the same alliance
I might do some testing on that once I can get my hands on the Darloc Bruh set as I haven't bought Elsweyr and might never do that as long as Bosmer stealth hasn't been fixed.

Wildberryjack

Really want an alternative to a thief build. Yeah I like kitties but would like a choice. Now there really isn't one. Short range stealth detect is worthless too outside of very limited PvP situations.