Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

anadandy

SpringEternal wrote: »

Perhaps the reason for continued radio silence on the Bosmer stealth issue is that they've once again landed in a "no-win," "sticky situation" and are trying to assess their options? But, really, does literally anyone actually like the new increased stealth detection better than the old decreased stealth radius? Seems like the best thing to do to make the highest number of players happy is a no-brainer. Just switch that bit back.

This sort of relates to the comments they made at the Bethesda Game Days live stream when someone asked if they were planning on adding other actions to the justice system alongwith Necromancy (like WW and Vampire) and the answer was they had to be careful making a change like that because they would be messing with things people had been doing for years and making a drastic change. I think the comment was "I could do this yesterday but not today"/

Where was that concern when they took away Bosmer stealth radius? Apparently their "no changes" policy is very flexible depending on what THEY want - so I have zero sympathy for them being in a no-win situation now.

Cundu_Ertur

anadandy wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Perhaps the reason for continued radio silence on the Bosmer stealth issue is that they've once again landed in a "no-win," "sticky situation" and are trying to assess their options? But, really, does literally anyone actually like the new increased stealth detection better than the old decreased stealth radius? Seems like the best thing to do to make the highest number of players happy is a no-brainer. Just switch that bit back.

This sort of relates to the comments they made at the Bethesda Game Days live stream when someone asked if they were planning on adding other actions to the justice system alongwith Necromancy (like WW and Vampire) and the answer was they had to be careful making a change like that because they would be messing with things people had been doing for years and making a drastic change. I think the comment was "I could do this yesterday but not today"/

Where was that concern when they took away Bosmer stealth radius? Apparently their "no changes" policy is very flexible depending on what THEY want - so I have zero sympathy for them being in a no-win situation now.

Exactly. They changed something that had been the case since TES III DESPITE dozens (if not hundreds) of posts that pointed out the discrepancy. This isn't a case where something was always one way; it is a case where they made a badly informed and poorly thought out change to a well established aspect of the game. We are not asking for a change to a system, we are asking that a system be restored to what it had been. The way to fix Bosmer snipe gank builds is not and was not to remove the ability to hide better, it is and was to remove the bonus to damage out of stealth (which we are not asking to get back) and to reduce the damage done by snipe (which is coming).

In 62 pages, we have had not one person come in and state any degree of support for the detection bonus that I can recall. It is useless. Not just in PVE; but in PVP, too. If it was removed there would be not one complaint because it literally does nothing beneficial. The people who don't want a change only like the roly-poly dodge stuff -- but we're not really discussing that all that much, except to note it really isn't that useful outside of PVP, and even then it's pretty minor. So long as that part didn't change, I doubt there would be any complaint from Bosmer players if the detection uselessness was replaced with the stealth bonus Bosmer should have.

max_only

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Perhaps the reason for continued radio silence on the Bosmer stealth issue is that they've once again landed in a "no-win," "sticky situation" and are trying to assess their options? But, really, does literally anyone actually like the new increased stealth detection better than the old decreased stealth radius? Seems like the best thing to do to make the highest number of players happy is a no-brainer. Just switch that bit back.

This sort of relates to the comments they made at the Bethesda Game Days live stream when someone asked if they were planning on adding other actions to the justice system alongwith Necromancy (like WW and Vampire) and the answer was they had to be careful making a change like that because they would be messing with things people had been doing for years and making a drastic change. I think the comment was "I could do this yesterday but not today"/

Where was that concern when they took away Bosmer stealth radius? Apparently their "no changes" policy is very flexible depending on what THEY want - so I have zero sympathy for them being in a no-win situation now.

Exactly. They changed something that had been the case since TES III DESPITE dozens (if not hundreds) of posts that pointed out the discrepancy. This isn't a case where something was always one way; it is a case where they made a badly informed and poorly thought out change to a well established aspect of the game. We are not asking for a change to a system, we are asking that a system be restored to what it had been. The way to fix Bosmer snipe gank builds is not and was not to remove the ability to hide better, it is and was to remove the bonus to damage out of stealth (which we are not asking to get back) and to reduce the damage done by snipe (which is coming).

In 62 pages, we have had not one person come in and state any degree of support for the detection bonus that I can recall. It is useless. Not just in PVE; but in PVP, too. If it was removed there would be not one complaint because it literally does nothing beneficial. The people who don't want a change only like the roly-poly dodge stuff -- but we're not really discussing that all that much, except to note it really isn't that useful outside of PVP, and even then it's pretty minor. So long as that part didn't change, I doubt there would be any complaint from Bosmer players if the detection uselessness was replaced with the stealth bonus Bosmer should have.

There have been disingenuous trolls claiming they use the stealth detect.

The roll dodge (spend resources to use a passive) is a sore point for me too, but I just want to focus on one thing at a time.

Left4Daud

Don’t bite my head off for saying this but the stealth detection component of the passive has secured me kills in PVP that I otherwise wouldn’t have attained. Though I still would trade it any day back for the reduced radius to be clear. It’s highly minimal use is probably bugged though (allows you to see invisible enemies at an extremely close distance).

Two examples off the top of my head:

1- Fighting a sorc open field, sorc starts to streak away and pops and invis pot, I sprint to their general location and run into them crouching. Because of the passive and me being close enough, I see through their invis pot and continue the fight. Without the passive they would have escaped.

2- An annoying nightblade was harassing my group at a inner front door keep siege. They kept attacking/burning siege and cloaking away. I saw them get pulled out of cloak in a corner near the front door so I sprinted to that location. Now very close to them, the stealth detection passive pierced through their invisibility and allowed me to attack and DOT them up. Without that passive I wouldn’t have been able to target them and they would have escaped.

There were a handful of other times I have used the passive in this nature.

Again please don’t bite my head off, I couldn’t care less about the detection passive.

But there is indeed another side to the coin.

Cundu_Ertur

I think that is more bugged behavior. I don't think it is supposed to work against cloak/invisibility at all, just stealth. Maybe we can get some NB's to come here and whine about how OP it is for Bosmer to be able to pull people out of invisibility.

Left4Daud

Right, outside of that bug it’s utterly useless. Just wanted to put those experiences on the table is all.

anadandy

I appreciate the insight on your stealth detection experiences, Left4Daud And despite being a Bosmer I won't bite your head off

It's as I suspected, detection is useful in very specific PVP situations and of zero use in PVE. I don't understand why the devs refuse to acknowledge that - even if they don't change it.

Ah well, log in for daily reward, log out. That's been my past few weeks. Well done, devs!

Left4Daud

@anadandy

You’re welcome. ZOS’s general approach to communication has always been to, well, not generally communicate. Of this they are masters no doubt.

They’re own lore on the other hand, not so much.

Ratzkifal

Not even Altmer can (truthfully) complain about Spell Recharge being useless in PvE. You do dodge and block and sprint even as DPS in PvE. On my Altmer magDK I've been spamming Molten Armaments to get stam back after sprinting (and I know that Helping Hands contributed more than half the stamina there). It allowed me to continue sprinting right then and there until I would also used up my magicka. Spell Recharge, as bad as it is, can at least be taken advantage of in both PvP, PvE and out of combat.

Hunter's Eye can't be taken advantage of in the same way. Definitely not the detection and "pretty much" not the dodgeroll. We know that with Hunter's Eye, attempting to actively take advantage of it, is actually a detriment. You would only care about a short burst of movement speed if you are not trying to get somewhere far away and don't need your stamina when you arrive. It's a completely different story in PvP obviously, but that it boils down to pretty much nothing in PvE is just sad. That you can save 3 skill points when you play Bosmer is really the only advantage it has.
It wouldn't be the case if the penetration was permanent and the detection was stealth again. You'd still have a great PvP passive there but it would work for PvE too while also distinguishing Bosmer and Redguards beyond who has the better sustain.

Why doesn't ZOS see this?

Jaraal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

I think that is more bugged behavior. I don't think it is supposed to work against cloak/invisibility at all, just stealth.

Makes sense, because he/she should have been able to see them from 3 meters away ("Increases your detection radius in Stealth by 3m"), rather than having to be right on top of them. And I agree that "stealth" is not the same as invisibility, or the tooltip would have read "Increases your detection radius in Stealth or Invisibility by 3m". The simple fact than "Stealth" is capitalized indicates that the passive (supposedly) works with that specific ability, rather than non-capitalized generic "stealth".

And it just occurred to me that the way the passive is worded, you actually have to be IN stealth (ie: crouched) to be able to detect players 3 meters closer. But I know for a fact that when I was crouched right next to the enemy player in that delve, that I could not see her until I cast Evil Hunter.

Cundu_Ertur

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Not even Altmer can (truthfully) complain about Spell Recharge being useless in PvE. You do dodge and block and sprint even as DPS in PvE. On my Altmer magDK I've been spamming Molten Armaments to get stam back after sprinting (and I know that Helping Hands contributed more than half the stamina there). It allowed me to continue sprinting right then and there until I would also used up my magicka. Spell Recharge, as bad as it is, can at least be taken advantage of in both PvP, PvE and out of combat.

Hunter's Eye can't be taken advantage of in the same way. Definitely not the detection and "pretty much" not the dodgeroll. We know that with Hunter's Eye, attempting to actively take advantage of it, is actually a detriment. You would only care about a short burst of movement speed if you are not trying to get somewhere far away and don't need your stamina when you arrive. It's a completely different story in PvP obviously, but that it boils down to pretty much nothing in PvE is just sad. That you can save 3 skill points when you play Bosmer is really the only advantage it has.
It wouldn't be the case if the penetration was permanent and the detection was stealth again. You'd still have a great PvP passive there but it would work for PvE too while also distinguishing Bosmer and Redguards beyond who has the better sustain.

Why doesn't ZOS see this?

I would prefer that if we did have a permanent penetration bonus that it would be tied to using a bow. That would replace the currently 'acceptable' conditional bonus (right after a dodge-roll) with a more lore-friendly conditional situation (with a bow). I doubt I have to explain the importance of archery to Bosmeri culture in this thread. That Bosmer have not any shred of a bonus to using a bow* is as bad, in my opinion, as the loss of stealth.

*Note: Yes, there is the bonus to exp, but that does not translate to anything of value once the skills are all maxxed out. Shot for shot, Orcs and Dunmer are better archers. Yes, sustain may be an issue, but is there no food to help sustain? Is there any food to increase weapon damage?

Ratzkifal

Jaraal wrote: »

And it just occurred to me that the way the passive is worded, you actually have to be IN stealth (ie: crouched) to be able to detect players 3 meters closer. But I know for a fact that when I was crouched right next to the enemy player in that delve, that I could not see her until I cast Evil Hunter.

@Jaraal Huh? Can you elaborate on that? Is it because it says "stealth detection radius" instead of just "detection radius"? Because that doesn't sound to me like you have to be IN stealth at all. Just sounds like redundancy or a weak attempt at fooling people into believing that Bosmer are still related to stealth.

Cundu_Ertur

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

And it just occurred to me that the way the passive is worded, you actually have to be IN stealth (ie: crouched) to be able to detect players 3 meters closer. But I know for a fact that when I was crouched right next to the enemy player in that delve, that I could not see her until I cast Evil Hunter.

@Jaraal Huh? Can you elaborate on that? Is it because it says "stealth detection radius" instead of just "detection radius"? Because that doesn't sound to me like you have to be IN stealth at all. Just sounds like redundancy or a weak attempt at fooling people into believing that Bosmer are still related to stealth.

It's a weak attempt at fooling people into believing that Bosmer are still related to stealth.

Jaraal

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

And it just occurred to me that the way the passive is worded, you actually have to be IN stealth (ie: crouched) to be able to detect players 3 meters closer. But I know for a fact that when I was crouched right next to the enemy player in that delve, that I could not see her until I cast Evil Hunter.

@Jaraal Huh? Can you elaborate on that? Is it because it says "stealth detection radius" instead of just "detection radius"? Because that doesn't sound to me like you have to be IN stealth at all. Just sounds like redundancy or a weak attempt at fooling people into believing that Bosmer are still related to stealth.

Am I misreading the wording? It says "in stealth," not "of stealth."

Ratzkifal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Not even Altmer can (truthfully) complain about Spell Recharge being useless in PvE. You do dodge and block and sprint even as DPS in PvE. On my Altmer magDK I've been spamming Molten Armaments to get stam back after sprinting (and I know that Helping Hands contributed more than half the stamina there). It allowed me to continue sprinting right then and there until I would also used up my magicka. Spell Recharge, as bad as it is, can at least be taken advantage of in both PvP, PvE and out of combat.

Hunter's Eye can't be taken advantage of in the same way. Definitely not the detection and "pretty much" not the dodgeroll. We know that with Hunter's Eye, attempting to actively take advantage of it, is actually a detriment. You would only care about a short burst of movement speed if you are not trying to get somewhere far away and don't need your stamina when you arrive. It's a completely different story in PvP obviously, but that it boils down to pretty much nothing in PvE is just sad. That you can save 3 skill points when you play Bosmer is really the only advantage it has.
It wouldn't be the case if the penetration was permanent and the detection was stealth again. You'd still have a great PvP passive there but it would work for PvE too while also distinguishing Bosmer and Redguards beyond who has the better sustain.

Why doesn't ZOS see this?

I would prefer that if we did have a permanent penetration bonus that it would be tied to using a bow. That would replace the currently 'acceptable' conditional bonus (right after a dodge-roll) with a more lore-friendly conditional situation (with a bow). I doubt I have to explain the importance of archery to Bosmeri culture in this thread. That Bosmer have not any shred of a bonus to using a bow* is as bad, in my opinion, as the loss of stealth.

*Note: Yes, there is the bonus to exp, but that does not translate to anything of value once the skills are all maxxed out. Shot for shot, Orcs and Dunmer are better archers. Yes, sustain may be an issue, but is there no food to help sustain? Is there any food to increase weapon damage?

I still disagree with you there. We want to go away from shoehorning and restricting bonuses, not return to them. Maybe if it was "ranged attacks" rather than "with a bow". After all, thrown knives etc were also part of the marksman skill in older games.
But still, I think we shouldn't punish people who want to use daggers or swords on their Bosmer by locking one of their racial bonuses behind their weapon choice. That's exaclty what the current passive does but here it's locking the use behind pvp.
Redguard passives apply to all weapons too even though the lore points more towards swords. Orcs get universal weapon damage and Altmer universal spell damage. Why should Bosmer be the only different one?
As long as the bow is a viable weapon choice for Bosmer and the racial passives give the bow wielding Bosmer an edge over other bow wielding races then I am happy. And I feel our proposal does due to the movement speed synergizing with the bow passive to improve kiting potential, penetration increasing damage better with crit which bows (and daggers) give and lastly having enough passive power to be part of the meta at all thanks to their max stam and sustain.

Ratzkifal

@Jaraal That's what happens when you don't read it ingame. Fextralife also still mistakenly says that Argonians have poison AND disease resistance.
The wording ingame is "Increases your stealth detection radius by Xm. Increases your movement speed by X% and physical and spell penetration by X for 6 seconds after you use dodgeroll."

Jaraal

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@Jaraal That's what happens when you don't read it ingame. Fextralife also still mistakenly says that Argonians have poison AND disease resistance.
The wording ingame is "Increases your stealth detection radius by Xm. Increases your movement speed by X% and physical and spell penetration by X for 6 seconds after you use dodgeroll."

Well, that would explain why Bosmer are getting spotted early. "Your stealth detection radius" is the radius in which you can be detected!

Taloros

Even weeks after the nerf, looking at my poor little Bosmer Nightblade makes me sad. How cruel a fate, to loose her talent without any guilt on her side.

Cundu_Ertur

edit: remove a bit that is, apparently, incorrect. so....yeah. nevermind. nothing to see here. move along.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Not even Altmer can (truthfully) complain about Spell Recharge being useless in PvE. You do dodge and block and sprint even as DPS in PvE. On my Altmer magDK I've been spamming Molten Armaments to get stam back after sprinting (and I know that Helping Hands contributed more than half the stamina there). It allowed me to continue sprinting right then and there until I would also used up my magicka. Spell Recharge, as bad as it is, can at least be taken advantage of in both PvP, PvE and out of combat.

Hunter's Eye can't be taken advantage of in the same way. Definitely not the detection and "pretty much" not the dodgeroll. We know that with Hunter's Eye, attempting to actively take advantage of it, is actually a detriment. You would only care about a short burst of movement speed if you are not trying to get somewhere far away and don't need your stamina when you arrive. It's a completely different story in PvP obviously, but that it boils down to pretty much nothing in PvE is just sad. That you can save 3 skill points when you play Bosmer is really the only advantage it has.
It wouldn't be the case if the penetration was permanent and the detection was stealth again. You'd still have a great PvP passive there but it would work for PvE too while also distinguishing Bosmer and Redguards beyond who has the better sustain.

Why doesn't ZOS see this?

I would prefer that if we did have a permanent penetration bonus that it would be tied to using a bow. That would replace the currently 'acceptable' conditional bonus (right after a dodge-roll) with a more lore-friendly conditional situation (with a bow). I doubt I have to explain the importance of archery to Bosmeri culture in this thread. That Bosmer have not any shred of a bonus to using a bow* is as bad, in my opinion, as the loss of stealth.

*Note: Yes, there is the bonus to exp, but that does not translate to anything of value once the skills are all maxxed out. Shot for shot, Orcs and Dunmer are better archers. Yes, sustain may be an issue, but is there no food to help sustain? Is there any food to increase weapon damage?

I still disagree with you there. We want to go away from shoehorning and restricting bonuses, not return to them. Maybe if it was "ranged attacks" rather than "with a bow". After all, thrown knives etc were also part of the marksman skill in older games.
But still, I think we shouldn't punish people who want to use daggers or swords on their Bosmer by locking one of their racial bonuses behind their weapon choice. That's exaclty what the current passive does but here it's locking the use behind pvp.
Redguard passives apply to all weapons too even though the lore points more towards swords. Orcs get universal weapon damage and Altmer universal spell damage. Why should Bosmer be the only different one?
As long as the bow is a viable weapon choice for Bosmer and the racial passives give the bow wielding Bosmer an edge over other bow wielding races then I am happy. And I feel our proposal does due to the movement speed synergizing with the bow passive to improve kiting potential, penetration increasing damage better with crit which bows (and daggers) give and lastly having enough passive power to be part of the meta at all thanks to their max stam and sustain.

There's not a single prior game or bit of lore in the library that says that Bosmer are 'viable' archers, they all -- uniformly and without exception -- say finest and/or best. My opinion is, a Bosmer without a bow is like an Altmer who refuses to use magic -- you're playing against type and can't expect to get the same benefits. Yes, I know about the Blade bladmaster in a book; but one of the first things the author acknowledges is that it's odd to discuss a Bosmer who isn't an archer; and when the interview begins the lady herself acknowledges the same fact and starts by describing all the skills she had as an archer and how she was completely at a loss with another weapon. Bosmer should have some bow-only ability that sets them apart from all other archers, and it should be something that is there always; not just after a roll-dodge, or as a riposte, or on a Tuesday afternoon between 3 and 5pm on a partly cloudy day three days after a moderate rainfall.

Ratzkifal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

edit: remove a bit that is, apparently, incorrect. so....yeah. nevermind. nothing to see here. move along.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I still disagree with you there. We want to go away from shoehorning and restricting bonuses, not return to them. Maybe if it was "ranged attacks" rather than "with a bow". After all, thrown knives etc were also part of the marksman skill in older games.
But still, I think we shouldn't punish people who want to use daggers or swords on their Bosmer by locking one of their racial bonuses behind their weapon choice. That's exaclty what the current passive does but here it's locking the use behind pvp.
Redguard passives apply to all weapons too even though the lore points more towards swords. Orcs get universal weapon damage and Altmer universal spell damage. Why should Bosmer be the only different one?
As long as the bow is a viable weapon choice for Bosmer and the racial passives give the bow wielding Bosmer an edge over other bow wielding races then I am happy. And I feel our proposal does due to the movement speed synergizing with the bow passive to improve kiting potential, penetration increasing damage better with crit which bows (and daggers) give and lastly having enough passive power to be part of the meta at all thanks to their max stam and sustain.

There's not a single prior game or bit of lore in the library that says that Bosmer are 'viable' archers, they all -- uniformly and without exception -- say finest and/or best. My opinion is, a Bosmer without a bow is like an Altmer who refuses to use magic -- you're playing against type and can't expect to get the same benefits. Yes, I know about the Blade bladmaster in a book; but one of the first things the author acknowledges is that it's odd to discuss a Bosmer who isn't an archer; and when the interview begins the lady herself acknowledges the same fact and starts by describing all the skills she had as an archer and how she was completely at a loss with another weapon. Bosmer should have some bow-only ability that sets them apart from all other archers, and it should be something that is there always; not just after a roll-dodge, or as a riposte, or on a Tuesday afternoon between 3 and 5pm on a partly cloudy day three days after a moderate rainfall.

I wasn't really arguing from a lore perspective there but from a gameplay one.
In the single player games you can play whatever you want, because it doesn't matter in the end. Your adventure is the focus of the game.
In ESO your choices are what matters because the game is more focused on being unique among others. That obviously means that being a Bosmer should mean to be a viable (in terms of meta and balance, not lore) archer if not be the BiS option (preferably) for bow dps. However if there is only a singular way to play the game effectively, then choices only come down to "did you do it right or did you do it wrong". If Bosmer passives are shoehorning you to archery, then you are basically saying "if you are doing anything that is not archery on a Bosmer, you made the wrong choice" and that is not something ESO tries to be. I for one wouldn't want to have Bosmer be in a "go bow or go home" situation, which seems to be what you want. I also don't think it's the same as an Altmer not using magic - more like a Dunmer not using destruction magic, which is similar but not exactly the same and not nearly as "stupid". Not that I think 1500 penetration only on bows would make that a reality, but it's not a direction I would like to be taken.
At its core, ESO always tried to go for "play the way you want" and the changes to skills in Update 22 reflects that too, as more skills become viable spammables to expand on that freedom. It's the same reason why Redguards get reduced cost on destruction staves and Nords get their resistances even when not wearing heavy armor. Bosmer shouldn't be the exception to that design philosophy and offer several viable options, with bow being one of them.
I think we'll continue to disagree there, especially should compromising on having it apply to all ranged attacks be out of question for you.

wedgebert

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

There's not a single prior game or bit of lore in the library that says that Bosmer are 'viable' archers, they all -- uniformly and without exception -- say finest and/or best. My opinion is, a Bosmer without a bow is like an Altmer who refuses to use magic -- you're playing against type and can't expect to get the same benefits. Yes, I know about the Blade bladmaster in a book; but one of the first things the author acknowledges is that it's odd to discuss a Bosmer who isn't an archer; and when the interview begins the lady herself acknowledges the same fact and starts by describing all the skills she had as an archer and how she was completely at a loss with another weapon. Bosmer should have some bow-only ability that sets them apart from all other archers, and it should be something that is there always; not just after a roll-dodge, or as a riposte, or on a Tuesday afternoon between 3 and 5pm on a partly cloudy day three days after a moderate rainfall.

I was going to suggest that Bosmer get something like the Redguard "martial training" that reduces the cost of bow abilities, and then I realized that Martial Training already does that for bows (and every other weapon, does that include destruction staff abilities?). So giving Bosmer a bow only would be just be giving them a weaker version.

I can kind of see the problem ZOS is in as they've painted themselves in a corner. Using their Altmer Spell Recharge logic of not wanting to give sustain passives to damage races or damage bonuses to sustain races, there's not much that can be done.

I've got a few possibliities (all assume that stealth comes back and the roll-dodge potion is dumped back in the trash heap from whence it came)

1: Hunter's Eye is supposed to be the weak passive (despite other races having powerful first passives). In this case, having it be just cheaper bows is fine. Maybe even have it be 3%/6%/12% cost reduction since it only applies to a single weapon type unlike Martial Training

2: Keep the current mentality of DPS races can't have sustain buffs, but the opposite if fine and have the 1,500 pen bonus be on all the time, but just for bows. This would be about equal to the 4 piece bonus of Tzogvin’s Warband (1487 pen), but only for bows.

3: Same as #2, but also apply the pen bonus to any projectile attack. This would make it a little more useful, as things like the soon to be nerfed Grim Focus would benefit.

Ratzkifal

wedgebert wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

There's not a single prior game or bit of lore in the library that says that Bosmer are 'viable' archers, they all -- uniformly and without exception -- say finest and/or best. My opinion is, a Bosmer without a bow is like an Altmer who refuses to use magic -- you're playing against type and can't expect to get the same benefits. Yes, I know about the Blade bladmaster in a book; but one of the first things the author acknowledges is that it's odd to discuss a Bosmer who isn't an archer; and when the interview begins the lady herself acknowledges the same fact and starts by describing all the skills she had as an archer and how she was completely at a loss with another weapon. Bosmer should have some bow-only ability that sets them apart from all other archers, and it should be something that is there always; not just after a roll-dodge, or as a riposte, or on a Tuesday afternoon between 3 and 5pm on a partly cloudy day three days after a moderate rainfall.

I was going to suggest that Bosmer get something like the Redguard "martial training" that reduces the cost of bow abilities, and then I realized that Martial Training already does that for bows (and every other weapon, does that include destruction staff abilities?). So giving Bosmer a bow only would be just be giving them a weaker version.

I can kind of see the problem ZOS is in as they've painted themselves in a corner. Using their Altmer Spell Recharge logic of not wanting to give sustain passives to damage races or damage bonuses to sustain races, there's not much that can be done.

I've got a few possibliities (all assume that stealth comes back and the roll-dodge potion is dumped back in the trash heap from whence it came)

1: Hunter's Eye is supposed to be the weak passive (despite other races having powerful first passives). In this case, having it be just cheaper bows is fine. Maybe even have it be 3%/6%/12% cost reduction since it only applies to a single weapon type unlike Martial Training

2: Keep the current mentality of DPS races can't have sustain buffs, but the opposite if fine and have the 1,500 pen bonus be on all the time, but just for bows. This would be about equal to the 4 piece bonus of Tzogvin’s Warband (1487 pen), but only for bows.

3: Same as #2, but also apply the pen bonus to any projectile attack. This would make it a little more useful, as things like the soon to be nerfed Grim Focus would benefit.

Well, that Khajiit have sustain and damage passives kind of shows that these designs aren't strictly separated anyway. I'd say the penetration is fine as it doesn't affect dps anymore once you reach overpenetration. Similarly sustain doesn't increase dps further once you have "enough".
Besides, Redguard and Bosmer are already in an identical niche, that being stam sustain. Paradoxically Redguards are stronger with bows than with melee weapons due to the design of their last passive, while Bosmer favor melee builds in comparison to Redguard. And with it being penetration rather than flat weapon damage or crit damage, they are also not threatening the Dunmer or Khajiit niche either. If Bosmer gets penetration and Redguard a sustain buff (if needed), then they could still be equal without being OP. At least according to the latest graphs I've seen on that. The food changes might be messing that up again.

Cundu_Ertur

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

edit: remove a bit that is, apparently, incorrect. so....yeah. nevermind. nothing to see here. move along.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I still disagree with you there. We want to go away from shoehorning and restricting bonuses, not return to them. Maybe if it was "ranged attacks" rather than "with a bow". After all, thrown knives etc were also part of the marksman skill in older games.
But still, I think we shouldn't punish people who want to use daggers or swords on their Bosmer by locking one of their racial bonuses behind their weapon choice. That's exaclty what the current passive does but here it's locking the use behind pvp.
Redguard passives apply to all weapons too even though the lore points more towards swords. Orcs get universal weapon damage and Altmer universal spell damage. Why should Bosmer be the only different one?
As long as the bow is a viable weapon choice for Bosmer and the racial passives give the bow wielding Bosmer an edge over other bow wielding races then I am happy. And I feel our proposal does due to the movement speed synergizing with the bow passive to improve kiting potential, penetration increasing damage better with crit which bows (and daggers) give and lastly having enough passive power to be part of the meta at all thanks to their max stam and sustain.

There's not a single prior game or bit of lore in the library that says that Bosmer are 'viable' archers, they all -- uniformly and without exception -- say finest and/or best. My opinion is, a Bosmer without a bow is like an Altmer who refuses to use magic -- you're playing against type and can't expect to get the same benefits. Yes, I know about the Blade bladmaster in a book; but one of the first things the author acknowledges is that it's odd to discuss a Bosmer who isn't an archer; and when the interview begins the lady herself acknowledges the same fact and starts by describing all the skills she had as an archer and how she was completely at a loss with another weapon. Bosmer should have some bow-only ability that sets them apart from all other archers, and it should be something that is there always; not just after a roll-dodge, or as a riposte, or on a Tuesday afternoon between 3 and 5pm on a partly cloudy day three days after a moderate rainfall.

I wasn't really arguing from a lore perspective there but from a gameplay one.
In the single player games you can play whatever you want, because it doesn't matter in the end. Your adventure is the focus of the game.
In ESO your choices are what matters because the game is more focused on being unique among others. That obviously means that being a Bosmer should mean to be a viable (in terms of meta and balance, not lore) archer if not be the BiS option (preferably) for bow dps. However if there is only a singular way to play the game effectively, then choices only come down to "did you do it right or did you do it wrong". If Bosmer passives are shoehorning you to archery, then you are basically saying "if you are doing anything that is not archery on a Bosmer, you made the wrong choice" and that is not something ESO tries to be. I for one wouldn't want to have Bosmer be in a "go bow or go home" situation, which seems to be what you want. I also don't think it's the same as an Altmer not using magic - more like a Dunmer not using destruction magic, which is similar but not exactly the same and not nearly as "stupid". Not that I think 1500 penetration only on bows would make that a reality, but it's not a direction I would like to be taken.
At its core, ESO always tried to go for "play the way you want" and the changes to skills in Update 22 reflects that too, as more skills become viable spammables to expand on that freedom. It's the same reason why Redguards get reduced cost on destruction staves and Nords get their resistances even when not wearing heavy armor. Bosmer shouldn't be the exception to that design philosophy and offer several viable options, with bow being one of them.
I think we'll continue to disagree there, especially should compromising on having it apply to all ranged attacks be out of question for you.

I get where you're coming from, but it really is about the lore for me. And I'm proposing this with the intention of having (at some point) a sword'n'board/ice staff ice-warden tank Bosmer, who would benefit not at all from what I'm asking for. However, while I'd quibble a bit about having the 1500 pen bonus for all ranged attacks it would certainly be much closer to what it should be than what we have now. So, no, not completely out of the question.

wedgebert wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

There's not a single prior game or bit of lore in the library that says that Bosmer are 'viable' archers, they all -- uniformly and without exception -- say finest and/or best. My opinion is, a Bosmer without a bow is like an Altmer who refuses to use magic -- you're playing against type and can't expect to get the same benefits. Yes, I know about the Blade bladmaster in a book; but one of the first things the author acknowledges is that it's odd to discuss a Bosmer who isn't an archer; and when the interview begins the lady herself acknowledges the same fact and starts by describing all the skills she had as an archer and how she was completely at a loss with another weapon. Bosmer should have some bow-only ability that sets them apart from all other archers, and it should be something that is there always; not just after a roll-dodge, or as a riposte, or on a Tuesday afternoon between 3 and 5pm on a partly cloudy day three days after a moderate rainfall.

2: Keep the current mentality of DPS races can't have sustain buffs, but the opposite if fine and have the 1,500 pen bonus be on all the time, but just for bows. This would be about equal to the 4 piece bonus of Tzogvin’s Warband (1487 pen), but only for bows.

That is my biggest preference, though I wouldn't be averse to keeping the movement bonus after dodging -- I don't have a huge hate for that, I just think tying the penetration bonus to it is silly. So what I'd prefer to see would be: 3m decrease to stealth detection range (ie hiding bonus that we had before, without the bonus to damage), current dodge roll speed boost, constant 1500 penetration bonus with a bow.
The concern I have with making it for all ranged attacks (which would include staves, I suppose) would be that the more useful it is, the weaker it would have to be. Which goes again to the compromise position above.
On the other hand, and to play devil's advocate; Bosmer do have the Spinners, who are a fairly secretive bunch. Maybe the lore never mentions Bosmer magic-users being gifted at ranged spell use because no-one ever sees it. I dunno, though, seems a stretch.

rfennell_ESO

It's good to see this thread still rolling without a lock.

The key point (imo) is that they took the premier stealther race and made it realistically no better than 8 other races and inferior to 1.

How that flew and flies is laughable.

It would be like if they decided to balance Altmer by making them no better than every other race at magicka based combat and elevated breton to the premier magicka race.

Oh the sorcs a cryin' would have reversed that one for sure.

Poor little Bosmers? they not only gutted your stealth, they went and took a hammer to snipe and nightblade (you know... the play style a stealther excels at). I've yet to see a reasonable dev response to it...

Jaraal

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Poor little Bosmers? they not only gutted your stealth, they went and took a hammer to snipe and nightblade (you know... the play style a stealther excels at). I've yet to see a reasonable dev response to it...

Not only that, but since Bosmer Nightblades got crippled without stealth, a lot of us ditched our Shadowy Disguise and respecced to Dark Cloak and turned our characters into tanks. But now they hit our class burst self heal with the nerf hammer on test, so where do we go from here? Can't even be the best archers, as other races are better at it.

I still think they should just call us Falmer and be done with it.

DenMoria

I think ZoS has something against short people.

That's got to be it.

Jaraal

DenMoria wrote: »

I think ZoS has something against short people.

That's got to be it.

Makes as much sense as any other explanation!

Ratzkifal

Jaraal wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

I think ZoS has something against short people.

That's got to be it.

Makes as much sense as any other explanation!

It's also backed by as many developer comments as any other!

Cundu_Ertur

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

I think ZoS has something against short people.

That's got to be it.

Makes as much sense as any other explanation!

It's also backed by as many developer comments as any other!

So we'll call that
Status: Confirmed!

Cerra

PVE enemies in this game do not hide,


This isn't true. I have seen them using stealth powers repeatedly in PVE. The rogues are loose