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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

  • Ratzkifal
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    @Jaraal That's what happens when you don't read it ingame. Fextralife also still mistakenly says that Argonians have poison AND disease resistance.
    The wording ingame is "Increases your stealth detection radius by Xm. Increases your movement speed by X% and physical and spell penetration by X for 6 seconds after you use dodgeroll."
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Ratzkifal
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    edit: remove a bit that is, apparently, incorrect. so....yeah. nevermind. nothing to see here. move along.
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    I still disagree with you there. We want to go away from shoehorning and restricting bonuses, not return to them. Maybe if it was "ranged attacks" rather than "with a bow". After all, thrown knives etc were also part of the marksman skill in older games.
    But still, I think we shouldn't punish people who want to use daggers or swords on their Bosmer by locking one of their racial bonuses behind their weapon choice. That's exaclty what the current passive does but here it's locking the use behind pvp.
    Redguard passives apply to all weapons too even though the lore points more towards swords. Orcs get universal weapon damage and Altmer universal spell damage. Why should Bosmer be the only different one?
    As long as the bow is a viable weapon choice for Bosmer and the racial passives give the bow wielding Bosmer an edge over other bow wielding races then I am happy. And I feel our proposal does due to the movement speed synergizing with the bow passive to improve kiting potential, penetration increasing damage better with crit which bows (and daggers) give and lastly having enough passive power to be part of the meta at all thanks to their max stam and sustain.

    There's not a single prior game or bit of lore in the library that says that Bosmer are 'viable' archers, they all -- uniformly and without exception -- say finest and/or best. My opinion is, a Bosmer without a bow is like an Altmer who refuses to use magic -- you're playing against type and can't expect to get the same benefits. Yes, I know about the Blade bladmaster in a book; but one of the first things the author acknowledges is that it's odd to discuss a Bosmer who isn't an archer; and when the interview begins the lady herself acknowledges the same fact and starts by describing all the skills she had as an archer and how she was completely at a loss with another weapon. Bosmer should have some bow-only ability that sets them apart from all other archers, and it should be something that is there always; not just after a roll-dodge, or as a riposte, or on a Tuesday afternoon between 3 and 5pm on a partly cloudy day three days after a moderate rainfall.

    I wasn't really arguing from a lore perspective there but from a gameplay one.
    In the single player games you can play whatever you want, because it doesn't matter in the end. Your adventure is the focus of the game.
    In ESO your choices are what matters because the game is more focused on being unique among others. That obviously means that being a Bosmer should mean to be a viable (in terms of meta and balance, not lore) archer if not be the BiS option (preferably) for bow dps. However if there is only a singular way to play the game effectively, then choices only come down to "did you do it right or did you do it wrong". If Bosmer passives are shoehorning you to archery, then you are basically saying "if you are doing anything that is not archery on a Bosmer, you made the wrong choice" and that is not something ESO tries to be. I for one wouldn't want to have Bosmer be in a "go bow or go home" situation, which seems to be what you want. I also don't think it's the same as an Altmer not using magic - more like a Dunmer not using destruction magic, which is similar but not exactly the same and not nearly as "stupid". Not that I think 1500 penetration only on bows would make that a reality, but it's not a direction I would like to be taken.
    At its core, ESO always tried to go for "play the way you want" and the changes to skills in Update 22 reflects that too, as more skills become viable spammables to expand on that freedom. It's the same reason why Redguards get reduced cost on destruction staves and Nords get their resistances even when not wearing heavy armor. Bosmer shouldn't be the exception to that design philosophy and offer several viable options, with bow being one of them.
    I think we'll continue to disagree there, especially should compromising on having it apply to all ranged attacks be out of question for you.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • wedgebert
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    There's not a single prior game or bit of lore in the library that says that Bosmer are 'viable' archers, they all -- uniformly and without exception -- say finest and/or best. My opinion is, a Bosmer without a bow is like an Altmer who refuses to use magic -- you're playing against type and can't expect to get the same benefits. Yes, I know about the Blade bladmaster in a book; but one of the first things the author acknowledges is that it's odd to discuss a Bosmer who isn't an archer; and when the interview begins the lady herself acknowledges the same fact and starts by describing all the skills she had as an archer and how she was completely at a loss with another weapon. Bosmer should have some bow-only ability that sets them apart from all other archers, and it should be something that is there always; not just after a roll-dodge, or as a riposte, or on a Tuesday afternoon between 3 and 5pm on a partly cloudy day three days after a moderate rainfall.

    I was going to suggest that Bosmer get something like the Redguard "martial training" that reduces the cost of bow abilities, and then I realized that Martial Training already does that for bows (and every other weapon, does that include destruction staff abilities?). So giving Bosmer a bow only would be just be giving them a weaker version.

    I can kind of see the problem ZOS is in as they've painted themselves in a corner. Using their Altmer Spell Recharge logic of not wanting to give sustain passives to damage races or damage bonuses to sustain races, there's not much that can be done.

    I've got a few possibliities (all assume that stealth comes back and the roll-dodge potion is dumped back in the trash heap from whence it came)

    1: Hunter's Eye is supposed to be the weak passive (despite other races having powerful first passives). In this case, having it be just cheaper bows is fine. Maybe even have it be 3%/6%/12% cost reduction since it only applies to a single weapon type unlike Martial Training

    2: Keep the current mentality of DPS races can't have sustain buffs, but the opposite if fine and have the 1,500 pen bonus be on all the time, but just for bows. This would be about equal to the 4 piece bonus of Tzogvin’s Warband (1487 pen), but only for bows.

    3: Same as #2, but also apply the pen bonus to any projectile attack. This would make it a little more useful, as things like the soon to be nerfed Grim Focus would benefit.
  • Ratzkifal
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    wedgebert wrote: »

    There's not a single prior game or bit of lore in the library that says that Bosmer are 'viable' archers, they all -- uniformly and without exception -- say finest and/or best. My opinion is, a Bosmer without a bow is like an Altmer who refuses to use magic -- you're playing against type and can't expect to get the same benefits. Yes, I know about the Blade bladmaster in a book; but one of the first things the author acknowledges is that it's odd to discuss a Bosmer who isn't an archer; and when the interview begins the lady herself acknowledges the same fact and starts by describing all the skills she had as an archer and how she was completely at a loss with another weapon. Bosmer should have some bow-only ability that sets them apart from all other archers, and it should be something that is there always; not just after a roll-dodge, or as a riposte, or on a Tuesday afternoon between 3 and 5pm on a partly cloudy day three days after a moderate rainfall.

    I was going to suggest that Bosmer get something like the Redguard "martial training" that reduces the cost of bow abilities, and then I realized that Martial Training already does that for bows (and every other weapon, does that include destruction staff abilities?). So giving Bosmer a bow only would be just be giving them a weaker version.

    I can kind of see the problem ZOS is in as they've painted themselves in a corner. Using their Altmer Spell Recharge logic of not wanting to give sustain passives to damage races or damage bonuses to sustain races, there's not much that can be done.

    I've got a few possibliities (all assume that stealth comes back and the roll-dodge potion is dumped back in the trash heap from whence it came)

    1: Hunter's Eye is supposed to be the weak passive (despite other races having powerful first passives). In this case, having it be just cheaper bows is fine. Maybe even have it be 3%/6%/12% cost reduction since it only applies to a single weapon type unlike Martial Training

    2: Keep the current mentality of DPS races can't have sustain buffs, but the opposite if fine and have the 1,500 pen bonus be on all the time, but just for bows. This would be about equal to the 4 piece bonus of Tzogvin’s Warband (1487 pen), but only for bows.

    3: Same as #2, but also apply the pen bonus to any projectile attack. This would make it a little more useful, as things like the soon to be nerfed Grim Focus would benefit.

    Well, that Khajiit have sustain and damage passives kind of shows that these designs aren't strictly separated anyway. I'd say the penetration is fine as it doesn't affect dps anymore once you reach overpenetration. Similarly sustain doesn't increase dps further once you have "enough".
    Besides, Redguard and Bosmer are already in an identical niche, that being stam sustain. Paradoxically Redguards are stronger with bows than with melee weapons due to the design of their last passive, while Bosmer favor melee builds in comparison to Redguard. And with it being penetration rather than flat weapon damage or crit damage, they are also not threatening the Dunmer or Khajiit niche either. If Bosmer gets penetration and Redguard a sustain buff (if needed), then they could still be equal without being OP. At least according to the latest graphs I've seen on that. The food changes might be messing that up again.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    edit: remove a bit that is, apparently, incorrect. so....yeah. nevermind. nothing to see here. move along.
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    I still disagree with you there. We want to go away from shoehorning and restricting bonuses, not return to them. Maybe if it was "ranged attacks" rather than "with a bow". After all, thrown knives etc were also part of the marksman skill in older games.
    But still, I think we shouldn't punish people who want to use daggers or swords on their Bosmer by locking one of their racial bonuses behind their weapon choice. That's exaclty what the current passive does but here it's locking the use behind pvp.
    Redguard passives apply to all weapons too even though the lore points more towards swords. Orcs get universal weapon damage and Altmer universal spell damage. Why should Bosmer be the only different one?
    As long as the bow is a viable weapon choice for Bosmer and the racial passives give the bow wielding Bosmer an edge over other bow wielding races then I am happy. And I feel our proposal does due to the movement speed synergizing with the bow passive to improve kiting potential, penetration increasing damage better with crit which bows (and daggers) give and lastly having enough passive power to be part of the meta at all thanks to their max stam and sustain.

    There's not a single prior game or bit of lore in the library that says that Bosmer are 'viable' archers, they all -- uniformly and without exception -- say finest and/or best. My opinion is, a Bosmer without a bow is like an Altmer who refuses to use magic -- you're playing against type and can't expect to get the same benefits. Yes, I know about the Blade bladmaster in a book; but one of the first things the author acknowledges is that it's odd to discuss a Bosmer who isn't an archer; and when the interview begins the lady herself acknowledges the same fact and starts by describing all the skills she had as an archer and how she was completely at a loss with another weapon. Bosmer should have some bow-only ability that sets them apart from all other archers, and it should be something that is there always; not just after a roll-dodge, or as a riposte, or on a Tuesday afternoon between 3 and 5pm on a partly cloudy day three days after a moderate rainfall.

    I wasn't really arguing from a lore perspective there but from a gameplay one.
    In the single player games you can play whatever you want, because it doesn't matter in the end. Your adventure is the focus of the game.
    In ESO your choices are what matters because the game is more focused on being unique among others. That obviously means that being a Bosmer should mean to be a viable (in terms of meta and balance, not lore) archer if not be the BiS option (preferably) for bow dps. However if there is only a singular way to play the game effectively, then choices only come down to "did you do it right or did you do it wrong". If Bosmer passives are shoehorning you to archery, then you are basically saying "if you are doing anything that is not archery on a Bosmer, you made the wrong choice" and that is not something ESO tries to be. I for one wouldn't want to have Bosmer be in a "go bow or go home" situation, which seems to be what you want. I also don't think it's the same as an Altmer not using magic - more like a Dunmer not using destruction magic, which is similar but not exactly the same and not nearly as "stupid". Not that I think 1500 penetration only on bows would make that a reality, but it's not a direction I would like to be taken.
    At its core, ESO always tried to go for "play the way you want" and the changes to skills in Update 22 reflects that too, as more skills become viable spammables to expand on that freedom. It's the same reason why Redguards get reduced cost on destruction staves and Nords get their resistances even when not wearing heavy armor. Bosmer shouldn't be the exception to that design philosophy and offer several viable options, with bow being one of them.
    I think we'll continue to disagree there, especially should compromising on having it apply to all ranged attacks be out of question for you.

    I get where you're coming from, but it really is about the lore for me. And I'm proposing this with the intention of having (at some point) a sword'n'board/ice staff ice-warden tank Bosmer, who would benefit not at all from what I'm asking for. However, while I'd quibble a bit about having the 1500 pen bonus for all ranged attacks it would certainly be much closer to what it should be than what we have now. So, no, not completely out of the question.
    wedgebert wrote: »

    There's not a single prior game or bit of lore in the library that says that Bosmer are 'viable' archers, they all -- uniformly and without exception -- say finest and/or best. My opinion is, a Bosmer without a bow is like an Altmer who refuses to use magic -- you're playing against type and can't expect to get the same benefits. Yes, I know about the Blade bladmaster in a book; but one of the first things the author acknowledges is that it's odd to discuss a Bosmer who isn't an archer; and when the interview begins the lady herself acknowledges the same fact and starts by describing all the skills she had as an archer and how she was completely at a loss with another weapon. Bosmer should have some bow-only ability that sets them apart from all other archers, and it should be something that is there always; not just after a roll-dodge, or as a riposte, or on a Tuesday afternoon between 3 and 5pm on a partly cloudy day three days after a moderate rainfall.

    2: Keep the current mentality of DPS races can't have sustain buffs, but the opposite if fine and have the 1,500 pen bonus be on all the time, but just for bows. This would be about equal to the 4 piece bonus of Tzogvin’s Warband (1487 pen), but only for bows.
    That is my biggest preference, though I wouldn't be averse to keeping the movement bonus after dodging -- I don't have a huge hate for that, I just think tying the penetration bonus to it is silly. So what I'd prefer to see would be: 3m decrease to stealth detection range (ie hiding bonus that we had before, without the bonus to damage), current dodge roll speed boost, constant 1500 penetration bonus with a bow.
    The concern I have with making it for all ranged attacks (which would include staves, I suppose) would be that the more useful it is, the weaker it would have to be. Which goes again to the compromise position above.
    On the other hand, and to play devil's advocate; Bosmer do have the Spinners, who are a fairly secretive bunch. Maybe the lore never mentions Bosmer magic-users being gifted at ranged spell use because no-one ever sees it. I dunno, though, seems a stretch.

    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    DenMoria wrote: »
    I think ZoS has something against short people.

    That's got to be it.

    Makes as much sense as any other explanation!

    It's also backed by as many developer comments as any other!

    So we'll call that
    Status: Confirmed!
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Cerra
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    PVE enemies in this game do not hide,


    This isn't true. I have seen them using stealth powers repeatedly in PVE. The rogues are loose
  • Cerra
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Cerra wrote: »
    PVE enemies in this game do not hide,


    This isn't true. I have seen them using stealth powers repeatedly in PVE. The rogues are loose

    @Cerra You are correct that some NPCs go invisible, but the Hunter's Eye passive actually does not reveal them at all, which is inconsistent even with how Hunter's Eye interacts with the Nightblade cloak. In one of the 63pages is a screenshot of an invisible NPC who does not get revealed by Hunter's Eye.
    So far nobody has tested if Hunter's Eye works in that one delve in Clockwork City. It might actually work on those, but it can still hardly becalled useful.

    Sounds like a bug that needs to be fixed then...
  • Jaraal
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    BlueRaven wrote: »

    I am not sure if contacting Bethesda will do much.

    Could always try writing to the Board of Directors:


    https://www.zenimax.com/about


    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • Ratzkifal
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    I decided to properly play my Bosmer again yesterday. Sneaking through delves in Cyrodiil or hiding from gankers felt definitely worse. At least getting into combat with literally every NPC in the delves forced me to practise my rotation. That practise is probably the best/only good thing to come out of that change for me.

    Anyone else has some accidental benefits to share? Not that I think there are a whole lot of them...
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Sylvermynx
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    No, it should be discarded and put back to how it should be. Bosmer have never in any game had any kind of stealth detection, it has never been any part of any lore, it is completely inconsistent with how Bosmer have been represented in every aspect of their lore -- which is that they are sneaky masters of hiding. There is no point in wasting time trying to fix what should never have been done in the first place.

    Now, I don't know how this would actually work....

    But maybe someone(s) should talk to Bethesda? I mean, supposedly ZOS has to deal with beth on lore. So.... this is an absolute abortion of lore. Shouldn't beth be pinged? And wouldn't they be concerned?

    I am not sure if contacting Bethesda will do much.

    I kept hearing stories about how Todd Howard did not want to do an ES MMO. So I actually wonder how much he even cares what happens in the game. Even though the "claim" is that ESO IS canon, I wonder if Todd takes the game THAT seriously.

    After seeing what they did with F76, I wonder if that was what Todd really wanted to do in an ES MMO. And I wonder if he resents the whole concept of ESO as it appears it is NOT under his direct control.

    In either case if Todd was made aware, I am just not sure how much he would care. If he did care about ESO, I would have thought he would take at least some time to comment about ESO in general. And other then introducing the game developers, I have never heard him say one thing about ESO ever.

    No, "i like what you did with...", type comment or anything like that. Which always struck me as a little odd, unless he really resents it's existence.

    Wow. That's not only disappointing, it's disturbing. Maybe it's time for Todd Howard to go away too. I actually know a guy who likes F76 - but he really likes anything where he can kill to his heart's content, and isn't terribly upset with how the game turned out (not like I know - I don't play the FOs.... and I certainly wouldn't play 76 or any other FO MMO).
  • Tasear
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    Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.
  • anadandy
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    All I do is go charging in and just burn down all the mobs. I might as well be an orc or a dark elf.

    I am playing a character that looks like a wood elf, but is otherwise simply generic. .

    This, exactly.

    And a break free bonus wouldn't do anything for me.
  • Sylvermynx
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    anadandy wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    All I do is go charging in and just burn down all the mobs. I might as well be an orc or a dark elf.

    I am playing a character that looks like a wood elf, but is otherwise simply generic. .

    This, exactly.

    And a break free bonus wouldn't do anything for me.

    Me either.
This discussion has been closed.