Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Tasear

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.

@Tasear Then they would be better at breaking free. That is an improvement from Detection, but it is still not good. Also, what is the reason why they would be better at breaking free? That would fit Orcs far more than Bosmer due to being so buff and tough that they can just "shake it off". When it comes to racial passives, if there is no good explanation for a bonus, then it's not a good racial passive.

Also, remember this?

Tasear wrote: »

Not the correct story

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Not the correct story

@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.

I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. [...]

Since Wrathstone is now live and the NDA for Elsweyr has been partially lifted, are you allowed to talk about this now? Your level of confidence suggested that you know more about what went wrong in the Wrathstone update than any of us. ZOS won't even acknowledge our existence here, so if you have any knowledge on the matter that you are allowed to share, please do. Even if you have to black out classified information first.

I am no longer privalaged to such infromation. Honestly they are unlikely to change it anytime soon, but I do think this has long sense reminded them of importance of lore, in regards to future.

I also apologize as main bosmer character for not defending this when I had chance. I regret my oversight in non-combat gameplay and hope reminding and new ones that this as a lesson. As always you have my continued support title or not. I am one of you.

Ratzkifal

Thank you for answering and thank you for that apology. Sad that you can't tell us more, but it is what it is.

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.

@Tasear Then they would be better at breaking free. That is an improvement from Detection, but it is still not good. Also, what is the reason why they would be better at breaking free? That would fit Orcs far more than Bosmer due to being so buff and tough that they can just "shake it off". When it comes to racial passives, if there is no good explanation for a bonus, then it's not a good racial passive.

Also, remember this?

Tasear wrote: »

Not the correct story

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Not the correct story

@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.

I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. [...]

Since Wrathstone is now live and the NDA for Elsweyr has been partially lifted, are you allowed to talk about this now? Your level of confidence suggested that you know more about what went wrong in the Wrathstone update than any of us. ZOS won't even acknowledge our existence here, so if you have any knowledge on the matter that you are allowed to share, please do. Even if you have to black out classified information first.

Honestly they are unlikely to change it anytime soon, but I do think this has long since reminde[d] them of [the] importance of lore.

Somehow I feel like these two just don't go along in the same sentence at all. If they have been reminded of the importance of lore, then why have they not fixed the issue in the Elsweyr patch? Why will it be "not any time soon"? A "bandaid fix" is nothing unheard of at all and that is exactly what replacing detection with stealth and leaving the rest as on live would be. They can take a second shot at doing the races justice in a later update, but if the fix to the lore takes so little effort on their part, then they would have done it already if lore was indeed important to them.
So, no, I don't think they have been reminded of the importance of lore enough and whenever someone in the Elsweyr trailers and teasers says "lore" I make that Hide-the-pain Harold face because the word holds no meaning out of their mouths. And that is very sad, because I used to look forward to updates and new zones.

Night_Wolf2112

Yeah... if you watch the Necro information video, they mention 'true to lore' and 'what players expect' and 'how Tamriel treats' numerous time about a class that's never been playable before...

But with Bosmer, they have taken an entire race that has been playable for a long time, and totally disregarded 'ALL' of that!

Any "true to lore" statements from them have absolutely zero credibility and prove they don't think things through clearly.

Jaraal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

That's the problem. If they are going to remake Bosmer from thieves to guards there is literally no limit to what they will do. It's nonsense, and it is beyond silly that this travesty has gone on as long as it has. So, yeah. There can absolutely be a patch where Khajiit lose their cat-like features and turn into were-bears or panda people or something stupid.

These changes are all made on the basis of the ever changing PvP vision of "balance". So certainly, they could come out tomorrow and say "Altmer are overperforming, we need to take away their magicka and spell damage bonus and give it to Khajiit, give the stealth bonus to Redguard so Khajiit aren't overpowered," etc, and then nobody gives a hoot about established lore, because the TES world has become nothing more than a deathmatch game with different looking characters.

Of course they won't tell us one way or the other, but it's interesting that lore has become unimportant around the same time as Loremaster Lawrence Schick departing and new Loremaster @ZOS_LeamonTuttle taking over lore duties. I would be most interested to hear his reasoning on the matter. But I fear that if they can ignore us this long, that there will be no more information forthcoming any time soon.

Sylvermynx

Necros "true to lore"? Like how? Necromancers are anathema for the most part in lore. Of course, this is ESO - but damn.... Mannimarco is one of the main antagonists in the game!

Sheesh.

Tasear

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Thank you for answering and thank you for that apology. Sad that you can't tell us more, but it is what it is.

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.

@Tasear Then they would be better at breaking free. That is an improvement from Detection, but it is still not good. Also, what is the reason why they would be better at breaking free? That would fit Orcs far more than Bosmer due to being so buff and tough that they can just "shake it off". When it comes to racial passives, if there is no good explanation for a bonus, then it's not a good racial passive.

Also, remember this?

Tasear wrote: »

Not the correct story

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Not the correct story

@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.

I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. [...]

Since Wrathstone is now live and the NDA for Elsweyr has been partially lifted, are you allowed to talk about this now? Your level of confidence suggested that you know more about what went wrong in the Wrathstone update than any of us. ZOS won't even acknowledge our existence here, so if you have any knowledge on the matter that you are allowed to share, please do. Even if you have to black out classified information first.

Honestly they are unlikely to change it anytime soon, but I do think this has long since reminde[d] them of [the] importance of lore.

Somehow I feel like these two just don't go along in the same sentence at all. If they have been reminded of the importance of lore, then why have they not fixed the issue in the Elsweyr patch? Why will it be "not any time soon"? A "bandaid fix" is nothing unheard of at all and that is exactly what replacing detection with stealth and leaving the rest as on live would be. They can take a second shot at doing the races justice in a later update, but if the fix to the lore takes so little effort on their part, then they would have done it already if lore was indeed important to them.
So, no, I don't think they have been reminded of the importance of lore enough and whenever someone in the Elsweyr trailers and teasers says "lore" I make that Hide-the-pain Harold face because the word holds no meaning out of their mouths. And that is very sad, because I used to look forward to updates and new zones.

Business wise I just don't they could at this point back out of it at least for 2 more years. To them they did give bosmers stealth but missed contation of that in lore that makes them better theives. This is my assumption on current situation.

I think though if bosmers really were more conhevise in their desires for changes that don't overlap with khajitt then might have a chance at change, but right now I see it as too big of risk. This is just my assumption.

Jaraal

Tasear wrote: »

Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.

@Tasear that would certainly help to escape hostile NPC guards, but the reason I don't play my Bosmer as a thief any more is because I don't want to rack up extra bounty, get caught all the time, or have to deal with guards in the first place.

The challenge in being a thief is to be able to keep playing, rather than running around trying not to get killed or having to pay thousands in gold to clear your name. You're going to make mistakes and get caught from time to time, it's part of the challenge of the playstyle. It's all about risk vs reward, but when the risk becomes too great, it's not fun or economical to steal for a living. With the old Stealthy passive, I was able to manage my bounty with Counterfeit Pardon Edicts and Leniency Edicts from questing or found in Thieves Troves. Or by using my guild passives to decrease accrued bounty over time.

The Justice play is a well designed and executed part of the game, but there's a reason not everybody utilizes it. It does take some skill and common sense, but it's also difficult enough that only the stealthy races (previously two, but now reduced to one) are best at it. And if you have to carry and put on extra changes of clothes or two every time you see a crate that need looting or a pocket that needs to be picked, then it's just a waste of time. But mainly, it's a travesty that the renowned masters of stealth for decades had to be turned into average nobodies who don't even have a passive to replace what they lost unless they play in Cyrodiil or Battlegrounds. And even then, the passive doesn't work and makes our Bosmer friends extra vulnerable to attack.

Sylvermynx

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Thank you for answering and thank you for that apology. Sad that you can't tell us more, but it is what it is.

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.

@Tasear Then they would be better at breaking free. That is an improvement from Detection, but it is still not good. Also, what is the reason why they would be better at breaking free? That would fit Orcs far more than Bosmer due to being so buff and tough that they can just "shake it off". When it comes to racial passives, if there is no good explanation for a bonus, then it's not a good racial passive.

Also, remember this?

Tasear wrote: »

Not the correct story

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Not the correct story

@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.

I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. [...]

Since Wrathstone is now live and the NDA for Elsweyr has been partially lifted, are you allowed to talk about this now? Your level of confidence suggested that you know more about what went wrong in the Wrathstone update than any of us. ZOS won't even acknowledge our existence here, so if you have any knowledge on the matter that you are allowed to share, please do. Even if you have to black out classified information first.

Honestly they are unlikely to change it anytime soon, but I do think this has long since reminde[d] them of [the] importance of lore.

Somehow I feel like these two just don't go along in the same sentence at all. If they have been reminded of the importance of lore, then why have they not fixed the issue in the Elsweyr patch? Why will it be "not any time soon"? A "bandaid fix" is nothing unheard of at all and that is exactly what replacing detection with stealth and leaving the rest as on live would be. They can take a second shot at doing the races justice in a later update, but if the fix to the lore takes so little effort on their part, then they would have done it already if lore was indeed important to them.
So, no, I don't think they have been reminded of the importance of lore enough and whenever someone in the Elsweyr trailers and teasers says "lore" I make that Hide-the-pain Harold face because the word holds no meaning out of their mouths. And that is very sad, because I used to look forward to updates and new zones.

Business wise I just don't they could at this point back out of it at least for 2 more years. To them they did give bosmers stealth but missed contation of that in lore that makes them better theives. This is my assumption on current situation.

I think though if bosmers really were more conhevise in their desires for changes that don't overlap with khajitt then might have a chance at change, but right now I see it as too big of risk. This is just my assumption.

Really. Tas.... there was NO REASON EVER to strip Bosmer of stealth - except to sell Elsweyr. Period.

Jaraal

Tasear wrote: »

Business wise I just don't they could at this point back out of it at least for 2 more years. To them they did give bosmers stealth but missed contation of that in lore that makes them better theives. This is my assumption on current situation.

I think though if bosmers really were more conhevise in their desires for changes that don't overlap with khajitt then might have a chance at change, but right now I see it as too big of risk. This is just my assumption.

Business wise, they are losing customers who have quit playing because they loved the Bosmer lore and built their characters to be sneaky and stealthy types. Also business wise, nobody wants to roll a Bosmer anymore to get a PvP only passive that gives away their presence to the enemy, but can in some way be useful to a handful of roly poly type builds who would have been roll dodging regardless. And they didn't give Bosmer any kind of stealth.... just a non-working ability to supposedly be able to tell when an enemy is near, in stealth. But in my experience, I can't detect an enemy crouched right next to me in Cyrodiil, until I cast a reveal ability or use a detect potion.

I personally feel that they cut the number of stealthy races to one (Khajiit) to try and force stealthy players who are anti-furry/scaley into playing a non-humanoid race, hoping that they will grow to like the Khajiit people and be more inclined to drop cash on the upcoming Khajiit expansion. I, for one, don't really care for Argonians, and therefore can list Shadowfen and Murkmire as my least interesting zones. From a business standpoint, if I was the marketing guy, I would certainly try to find ways to make Khajiit more appealing to the masses. So it would come as no surprise to me if this was part of the reasoning behind the changes. ZOS has already demonstrated their ability to alter gameplay to sell chapters. Such as adding Swift with the Summerset expansion, and then once sales have dropped off, nerfing Swift to slow players back down.

SpringEternal

Tasear wrote: »

Business wise I just don't they could at this point back out of it at least for 2 more years. To them they did give bosmers stealth but missed contation of that in lore that makes them better theives. This is my assumption on current situation.

I think though if bosmers really were more conhevise in their desires for changes that don't overlap with khajitt then might have a chance at change, but right now I see it as too big of risk. This is just my assumption.

It's so frustrating that they think Hunter's Eye gives Bosmer an advantage in stealth. The new passive supposedly gives opponents an early heads-up that a Bosmer is around.

It also encourages pvp-Bosmers to recklessly sprint into extremely close melee range in order to reveal invisible opponents. Which is really bad for both the traits the race is supposed to excel at, stealth and marksmanship.

Tasear wrote: »

Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.

It's an interesting thought, but doesn't really fit with the lore. Bosmer are renowned for their ability to vanish into their surroundings. They extol The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding. The Rite of Theft promotes clever thievery and their culture considers stealing to be an art form.

Which means they shouldn't really need to be good at breaking free because they shouldn't be getting caught that much in the first place.

It's surprisingly difficult to come up with a passive that works as well as decreased detection radius in stealth did. Pairing that with the roll dodge bonuses for Bosmer and critical damage bonuses for Khajiit should be enough to differentiate the two races, imo.

Cundu_Ertur

The problem is the devs have lost sight of what the archetypes have always been in TES: Warrior, Mage, Thief. Warrior races were Redguard, Nord, and Orc; Mage races were Breton and Altmer; Thief races were Khajiit and Bosmer; Dunmer were hybrid Warrior-mages, while Argonians were Thief-Mages. But not in ESO. Thief as a playstyle, as an archetype, has no place in the endgame for them and so it may as well not exist at all. So they don't bat an eye at gutting one of the two thief races for no real good reason besides 'oh each race needs to be unique.' No, they don't. Especially when there are two races that have ALWAYS been part of that playstyle. Now there is only one Thief race.

Gatviper

Have you seen their video in one of the latest news, where a dev is playing a Necromancer? He was even playing like a new player to ESO, just spamming light attacks. Tells you a lot how ZoS knows little enough about the game play they're working on, and how detached from the player community they actually are.

rfennell_ESO

SpringEternal wrote: »

It's surprisingly difficult to come up with a passive that works as well as decreased detection radius in stealth did. Pairing that with the roll dodge bonuses for Bosmer and critical damage bonuses for Khajiit should be enough to differentiate the two races, imo.

Well, the thing that would pair well with increased stealth detection radius would have been increased damage while stealthed.

Which Bosmer had and it was just taken away...

I guess they could add increased damage to stealthed targets...

It's still a total and complete slap in the face to bosmer. None of the racial changes were even close to the wreckage they inflicted to bosmer and an entire play style.

I guess from a racial perspective that khajiit being the stealthiest does make sense, they are cats after all... I guess the thinking would have been something like khajiit=cats, Bosmer=dogs. Cats are sneaky and stealthy, but dogs can find them. The problem turned out to be that ZOS decided they didn't like dogs much.

If they are dead set on the change they should just make the 3m increased stealth detection into a 3m (I'd push it to 5m) reveal or something. That way, if you get too close to a bosmer... their racial means something.

Ratzkifal

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

It's surprisingly difficult to come up with a passive that works as well as decreased detection radius in stealth did. Pairing that with the roll dodge bonuses for Bosmer and critical damage bonuses for Khajiit should be enough to differentiate the two races, imo.

Well, the thing that would pair well with increased stealth detection radius would have been increased damage while stealthed.

Which Bosmer had and it was just taken away...

I guess they could add increased damage to stealthed targets...

It's still a total and complete slap in the face to bosmer. None of the racial changes were even close to the wreckage they inflicted to bosmer and an entire play style.

I guess from a racial perspective that khajiit being the stealthiest does make sense, they are cats after all... I guess the thinking would have been something like khajiit=cats, Bosmer=dogs. Cats are sneaky and stealthy, but dogs can find them. The problem turned out to be that ZOS decided they didn't like dogs much.

If they are dead set on the change they should just make the 3m increased stealth detection into a 3m (I'd push it to 5m) reveal or something. That way, if you get too close to a bosmer... their racial means something.

That would still not be what Bosmer are about in lore. But at least 5m would be more meaningful. 8m is melee range though...
And besides, who says that Khajiit are sneakier than Bosmer? Skyrim. Who says they aren't? Morrowind and Oblivion.
Why does Skyrim say Khajiit are sneakier? Because acrobatics was removed and had to go somewhere. Sneak made sense.
We do have acrobatics in ESO, aka dodgeroll, so I don't see why Bosmer are not allowed to be at least as sneaky as Khajiit.

Taloros

I'd change the racial as follows:
- Replace the detection bonus with a stealth bonus, just as the one Khajit got (or rather: kept).
- Replace the speed/penetration bonus with a 1/2/3 m bonus for all ranges above 20 m, similar to how Dragonknights got a buff for all attacks up to 5 m.

That'd make the Bosmer stealthy archers without giving them a damage bonus.

Ratzkifal

Taloros wrote: »

I'd change the racial as follows:
- Replace the detection bonus with a stealth bonus, just as the one Khajit got (or rather: kept).
- Replace the speed/penetration bonus with a 1/2/3 m bonus for all ranges above 20 m, similar to how Dragonknights got a buff for all attacks up to 5 m.

That'd make the Bosmer stealthy archers without giving them a damage bonus.

There is even a set for that, so we know its exact value in the "item set bonus count". The only problem I see would be a potential health desync, which Snipe already has issues with but hey. It's a unique bonus that more playstyles than just the bow can take advantage of.

SpringEternal

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

It's surprisingly difficult to come up with a passive that works as well as decreased detection radius in stealth did. Pairing that with the roll dodge bonuses for Bosmer and critical damage bonuses for Khajiit should be enough to differentiate the two races, imo.

Well, the thing that would pair well with increased stealth detection radius would have been increased damage while stealthed.

Which Bosmer had and it was just taken away...

I guess they could add increased damage to stealthed targets...

It's still a total and complete slap in the face to bosmer. None of the racial changes were even close to the wreckage they inflicted to bosmer and an entire play style.

I guess from a racial perspective that khajiit being the stealthiest does make sense, they are cats after all... I guess the thinking would have been something like khajiit=cats, Bosmer=dogs. Cats are sneaky and stealthy, but dogs can find them. The problem turned out to be that ZOS decided they didn't like dogs much.

If they are dead set on the change they should just make the 3m increased stealth detection into a 3m (I'd push it to 5m) reveal or something. That way, if you get too close to a bosmer... their racial means something.

For balance reasons, they didn't want to give Bosmer any more bonuses to damage. While I don't love that they took away the increased damage from stealth, I can accept that. What I can't accept is that they took stealth away altogether. As you say, it's a slap in the face to Bosmer. It's also a slap in the face to lore.

The thing is both Khajiit and Bosmer are sneaky thieves. For the life of me, I can't understand why the developers considered that a problem in need of solving.

If they wanted to create a cat & dog dynamic they should have given better detection to a warrior race. Rushing in headlong to track down "cowardly" sneakers would fit Orcs or Nords much better than it does Bosmer.

SpringEternal

Taloros wrote: »

I'd change the racial as follows:
- Replace the detection bonus with a stealth bonus, just as the one Khajit got (or rather: kept).
- Replace the speed/penetration bonus with a 1/2/3 m bonus for all ranges above 20 m, similar to how Dragonknights got a buff for all attacks up to 5 m.

That'd make the Bosmer stealthy archers without giving them a damage bonus.

I this.

Ratzkifal

SpringEternal wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

It's surprisingly difficult to come up with a passive that works as well as decreased detection radius in stealth did. Pairing that with the roll dodge bonuses for Bosmer and critical damage bonuses for Khajiit should be enough to differentiate the two races, imo.

Well, the thing that would pair well with increased stealth detection radius would have been increased damage while stealthed.

Which Bosmer had and it was just taken away...

I guess they could add increased damage to stealthed targets...

It's still a total and complete slap in the face to bosmer. None of the racial changes were even close to the wreckage they inflicted to bosmer and an entire play style.

I guess from a racial perspective that khajiit being the stealthiest does make sense, they are cats after all... I guess the thinking would have been something like khajiit=cats, Bosmer=dogs. Cats are sneaky and stealthy, but dogs can find them. The problem turned out to be that ZOS decided they didn't like dogs much.

If they are dead set on the change they should just make the 3m increased stealth detection into a 3m (I'd push it to 5m) reveal or something. That way, if you get too close to a bosmer... their racial means something.

For balance reasons, they didn't want to give Bosmer any more bonuses to damage. While I don't love that they took away the increased damage from stealth, I can accept that. What I can't accept is that they took stealth away altogether. As you say, it's a slap in the face to Bosmer. It's also a slap in the face to lore.

The thing is both Khajiit and Bosmer are sneaky thieves. For the life of me, I can't understand why the developers considered that a problem in need of solving.

If they wanted to create a cat & dog dynamic they should have given better detection to a warrior race. Rushing in headlong to track down "cowardly" sneakers would fit Orcs or Nords much better than it does Bosmer.

Detection bonuses would also work nicely on other areas of the game. It pretty much only doesn't work on gear and races because you have to give up the alternatives. But say Werewolfs having an enhanced sense of smell or Vampires being able to detect their prey better (as undead in TES games always seem to have been) doesn't have to compete with any other bonus. The fighter's guild could have it be a passive too since fighters generally don't like sneaky cowards

Cundu_Ertur

SpringEternal wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

It's surprisingly difficult to come up with a passive that works as well as decreased detection radius in stealth did. Pairing that with the roll dodge bonuses for Bosmer and critical damage bonuses for Khajiit should be enough to differentiate the two races, imo.

Well, the thing that would pair well with increased stealth detection radius would have been increased damage while stealthed.

Which Bosmer had and it was just taken away...

I guess they could add increased damage to stealthed targets...

It's still a total and complete slap in the face to bosmer. None of the racial changes were even close to the wreckage they inflicted to bosmer and an entire play style.

I guess from a racial perspective that khajiit being the stealthiest does make sense, they are cats after all... I guess the thinking would have been something like khajiit=cats, Bosmer=dogs. Cats are sneaky and stealthy, but dogs can find them. The problem turned out to be that ZOS decided they didn't like dogs much.

If they are dead set on the change they should just make the 3m increased stealth detection into a 3m (I'd push it to 5m) reveal or something. That way, if you get too close to a bosmer... their racial means something.

For balance reasons, they didn't want to give Bosmer any more bonuses to damage. While I don't love that they took away the increased damage from stealth, I can accept that. What I can't accept is that they took stealth away altogether. As you say, it's a slap in the face to Bosmer. It's also a slap in the face to lore.

The thing is both Khajiit and Bosmer are sneaky thieves. For the life of me, I can't understand why the developers considered that a problem in need of solving.

If they wanted to create a cat & dog dynamic they should have given better detection to a warrior race. Rushing in headlong to track down "cowardly" sneakers would fit Orcs or Nords much better than it does Bosmer.

There's two or three lore books in Greenshade that specifically say that wood orcs are especially good at spotting people in stealth, and not happy when then find those people.

KMarble

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Thank you for answering and thank you for that apology. Sad that you can't tell us more, but it is what it is.

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.

@Tasear Then they would be better at breaking free. That is an improvement from Detection, but it is still not good. Also, what is the reason why they would be better at breaking free? That would fit Orcs far more than Bosmer due to being so buff and tough that they can just "shake it off". When it comes to racial passives, if there is no good explanation for a bonus, then it's not a good racial passive.

Also, remember this?

Tasear wrote: »

Not the correct story

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Not the correct story

@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.

I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. [...]

Since Wrathstone is now live and the NDA for Elsweyr has been partially lifted, are you allowed to talk about this now? Your level of confidence suggested that you know more about what went wrong in the Wrathstone update than any of us. ZOS won't even acknowledge our existence here, so if you have any knowledge on the matter that you are allowed to share, please do. Even if you have to black out classified information first.

Honestly they are unlikely to change it anytime soon, but I do think this has long since reminde[d] them of [the] importance of lore.

Somehow I feel like these two just don't go along in the same sentence at all. If they have been reminded of the importance of lore, then why have they not fixed the issue in the Elsweyr patch? Why will it be "not any time soon"? A "bandaid fix" is nothing unheard of at all and that is exactly what replacing detection with stealth and leaving the rest as on live would be. They can take a second shot at doing the races justice in a later update, but if the fix to the lore takes so little effort on their part, then they would have done it already if lore was indeed important to them.
So, no, I don't think they have been reminded of the importance of lore enough and whenever someone in the Elsweyr trailers and teasers says "lore" I make that Hide-the-pain Harold face because the word holds no meaning out of their mouths. And that is very sad, because I used to look forward to updates and new zones.

Business wise I just don't they could at this point back out of it at least for 2 more years. To them they did give bosmers stealth but missed contation of that in lore that makes them better theives. This is my assumption on current situation.

I think though if bosmers really were more conhevise in their desires for changes that don't overlap with khajitt then might have a chance at change, but right now I see it as too big of risk. This is just my assumption.

With all due respect @Tasear , some of your posts feel to me like you're trying to send us in wild goose chases. Many times now I've read posts from you suggesting that we, the affected ones, come up with a new racial passive.

The thing is that there is a terrible disconnect between what we've been saying and what you claim the devs are willing to do. You see, we WANT STEALTH BACK. Your posts seem to imply that the devs are open to almost anything as long as it is NOT giving stealth back to wood elves.

Tasear wrote: »

I think though if bosmers really were more conhevise in their desires for changes that don't overlap with khajitt then might have a chance at change, but right now I see it as too big of risk.

I'm going to assume you meant cohesive when you wrote "conhevise". When, in this thread, have we not been cohesive? From the get go, we've said over and over again that we want stealth back.

Why is it, that from all the races, the only two that cannot have one similar racial are Khajiit and wood elves? And such a minor one at that.

What risk are you talking about? This doesn't make sense. Why would having two races with stealth be any kind of risk?

(tinfoil hat on) So some players found a way to play wood elves that is borderline exploitation. A very specialized build that allowed them to clear content in both PVP and PVE.

This play style turned Cyrodiil and IC into a cold war where "soldiers" were being killed by "spies". It also allowed players to bypass content in PVE that took time, money and effort to create.

The solution found was to take away a fundamental part of what made the build viable - stealth - from those players. And then, because apparently one hand doesn't know what the other hand does inside this organization, they gave players not one, but 3 race change tokens, so that those players who were using this "broken" build could...I don't know...keep on using that build. Now with tail!
(tinfoil hat off)

Jaraal

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Taloros wrote: »

I'd change the racial as follows:
- Replace the detection bonus with a stealth bonus, just as the one Khajit got (or rather: kept).
- Replace the speed/penetration bonus with a 1/2/3 m bonus for all ranges above 20 m, similar to how Dragonknights got a buff for all attacks up to 5 m.

That'd make the Bosmer stealthy archers without giving them a damage bonus.

There is even a set for that, so we know its exact value in the "item set bonus count". The only problem I see would be a potential health desync, which Snipe already has issues with but hey. It's a unique bonus that more playstyles than just the bow can take advantage of.

The Reach passive in the Assault skill line (two ranks) extends the distance of long range abilities while in Cyrodiil, so the coding for something like this is already in place. And this is yet another example of how they are able to change your stats and abilities once you zone into PvP, but they can't be bothered to add anything to Hunter's Eye for PvE.

max_only

Jaraal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Business wise I just don't they could at this point back out of it at least for 2 more years. To them they did give bosmers stealth but missed contation of that in lore that makes them better theives. This is my assumption on current situation.

I think though if bosmers really were more conhevise in their desires for changes that don't overlap with khajitt then might have a chance at change, but right now I see it as too big of risk. This is just my assumption.

Business wise, they are losing customers who have quit playing because they loved the Bosmer lore and built their characters to be sneaky and stealthy types. Also business wise, nobody wants to roll a Bosmer anymore to get a PvP only passive that gives away their presence to the enemy, but can in some way be useful to a handful of roly poly type builds who would have been roll dodging regardless. And they didn't give Bosmer any kind of stealth.... just a non-working ability to supposedly be able to tell when an enemy is near, in stealth. But in my experience, I can't detect an enemy crouched right next to me in Cyrodiil, until I cast a reveal ability or use a detect potion.

I personally feel that they cut the number of stealthy races to one (Khajiit) to try and force stealthy players who are anti-furry/scaley into playing a non-humanoid race, hoping that they will grow to like the Khajiit people and be more inclined to drop cash on the upcoming Khajiit expansion. I, for one, don't really care for Argonians, and therefore can list Shadowfen and Murkmire as my least interesting zones. From a business standpoint, if I was the marketing guy, I would certainly try to find ways to make Khajiit more appealing to the masses. So it would come as no surprise to me if this was part of the reasoning behind the changes. ZOS has already demonstrated their ability to alter gameplay to sell chapters. Such as adding Swift with the Summerset expansion, and then once sales have dropped off, nerfing Swift to slow players back down.

Yes. At best it was a botched job of someone trying to turn in their homework on time. At worst it was a calculated business decision to force more people to like the Khajiit expansion.

Taloros wrote: »

I'd change the racial as follows:
- Replace the detection bonus with a stealth bonus, just as the one Khajit got (or rather: kept).
- Replace the speed/penetration bonus with a 1/2/3 m bonus for all ranges above 20 m, similar to how Dragonknights got a buff for all attacks up to 5 m.

That'd make the Bosmer stealthy archers without giving them a damage bonus.

This would be ideal but the rolypoly players would cry. Even though they were rolling around before the change.

JadeCoin

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.

@Tasear Then they would be better at breaking free. That is an improvement from Detection, but it is still not good. Also, what is the reason why they would be better at breaking free? That would fit Orcs far more than Bosmer due to being so buff and tough that they can just "shake it off". When it comes to racial passives, if there is no good explanation for a bonus, then it's not a good racial passive.

Also, remember this?

Tasear wrote: »

Not the correct story

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Not the correct story

@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.

I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. [...]

Since Wrathstone is now live and the NDA for Elsweyr has been partially lifted, are you allowed to talk about this now? Your level of confidence suggested that you know more about what went wrong in the Wrathstone update than any of us. ZOS won't even acknowledge our existence here, so if you have any knowledge on the matter that you are allowed to share, please do. Even if you have to black out classified information first.

I am no longer privalaged to such infromation. Honestly they are unlikely to change it anytime soon, but I do think this has long sense reminded them of importance of lore, in regards to future.

I also apologize as main bosmer character for not defending this when I had chance. I regret my oversight in non-combat gameplay and hope reminding and new ones that this as a lesson. As always you have my continued support title or not. I am one of you.

Thank you for the support, @Tasear! You'd be surprised how many players who don't even participate in or focus on Justice system play feel the need to roll on in and tell us to get lost. It's refreshing to see the opposite.

The spirit of the Elder Scrolls games has always been respect for the lore, respect for imaginative investment in our characters and the world they inhabit over a long duration of time (= decades), and respect for a diversity of playstyles (Thief, Mage, and Warrior, as @Cundu_Ertur points out). One of the challenges ESO faces is that this spirit has always been indirectly at odds with the spirit of an MMO. Although they usually coexist peacefully, in this case they have clashed rather badly. And in the end, following the spirit of the MMO proved more important than maintaining the spirit of the Elder Scrolls.

For myself and other die-hard ES fans, it's painfully ironic that this should coincide with the 25th Anniversary of the series.

Jaraal

max_only wrote: »

This would be ideal but the rolypoly players would cry. Even though they were rolling around before the change.

Crying has NEVER been a motivation for them to change or not change gameplay issues. The Public Test Server is a great example of this. How many times have they rolled out changes that the vast majority of testers hated, but went ahead and pushed them to live anyway?

This situation is different. This situation is about rewriting Bosmer history in a most unfavorable way and affecting the majority of wood elf players, whereas trying to defend replacing burning resources and trading actual damage for rolling around on the ground for a very small niche group of PvPers would be a far less credible effort.

And this discussion isn't really about the speed and penetration aspect of Hunter's Eye. I believe the overwhelming majority of us would be fine with keeping that as it is and just replacing the glitchy detection with the original personal stealth radius reduction, minus the 10% bonus damage from stealth.

Night_Wolf2112

Yes... the fix is actually quite simple and they could implement it easily. The devs are just being obtuse and twisting the knife in deeper with silence out of spite for us calling them out on there heinous mistake.

DarkerDreams

Wow, 64 pages of responses here and not even one acknowledgement from a dev, so typical. No matter how bad or lore breaking a change is, they'd rather double down and remain silent then admit they might have messed up.

JadeCoin

DarkerDreams wrote: »

Wow, 64 pages of responses here and not even one acknowledgement from a dev, so typical. No matter how bad or lore breaking a change is, they'd rather double down and remain silent then admit they might have messed up.

I suspect they might have some type of policy about engaging directly with forum threads of this kind. Faced with the constant silence, it's certainly tempting to read into it and assume we're being flatly ignored. But some insiders, including class reps and the former loremaster, have said that the devs do listen and they do take our feedback to heart. It would definitely restore a lot of people's faith (my own included, since I have some serious doubts), if that were the case.

In the absence of any response, though, it's impossible to know whether they acknowledge the issue or not. The most we can do is to keep the channel of communication open on our side.

Sylvermynx

I actually never expected the devs to comment on this. Initially I was shocked after 50 or so pages that they hadn't acknowledged this thread, but upon reflection, and having played two other major (okay, formerly major) MMOs, none of the devs in those games ever responded to player threads.

In fact, when I played WoW, I spent a lot of time on Blizzard's CS forum where the CS reps were the only Blizzard employees we interacted with. Occasionally, one of the reps would pass along something supposed to have originated with a dev, but it was pretty rare. And one of the reps did so once too often, and was "no longer with us"....

Spearpoint

Yes, I want the Bosmer stealth back too!

The race I've enjoyed through and since beta have been abandoned due to this, and sub was canceled.

The 'mersion is ruined. RIP Bosmer