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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    Thank you for answering and thank you for that apology. Sad that you can't tell us more, but it is what it is.
    Tasear wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Tasear wrote: »
    Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.

    @Tasear Then they would be better at breaking free. That is an improvement from Detection, but it is still not good. Also, what is the reason why they would be better at breaking free? That would fit Orcs far more than Bosmer due to being so buff and tough that they can just "shake it off". When it comes to racial passives, if there is no good explanation for a bonus, then it's not a good racial passive.

    Also, remember this?
    Tasear wrote: »

    Not the correct story
    Tasear wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Tasear wrote: »

    Not the correct story

    @Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.

    I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. [...]

    Since Wrathstone is now live and the NDA for Elsweyr has been partially lifted, are you allowed to talk about this now? Your level of confidence suggested that you know more about what went wrong in the Wrathstone update than any of us. ZOS won't even acknowledge our existence here, so if you have any knowledge on the matter that you are allowed to share, please do. Even if you have to black out classified information first.

    Honestly they are unlikely to change it anytime soon, but I do think this has long since reminde[d] them of [the] importance of lore.

    Somehow I feel like these two just don't go along in the same sentence at all. If they have been reminded of the importance of lore, then why have they not fixed the issue in the Elsweyr patch? Why will it be "not any time soon"? A "bandaid fix" is nothing unheard of at all and that is exactly what replacing detection with stealth and leaving the rest as on live would be. They can take a second shot at doing the races justice in a later update, but if the fix to the lore takes so little effort on their part, then they would have done it already if lore was indeed important to them.
    So, no, I don't think they have been reminded of the importance of lore enough and whenever someone in the Elsweyr trailers and teasers says "lore" I make that Hide-the-pain Harold face because the word holds no meaning out of their mouths. And that is very sad, because I used to look forward to updates and new zones.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Sylvermynx
    Sylvermynx
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    Necros "true to lore"? Like how? Necromancers are anathema for the most part in lore. Of course, this is ESO - but damn.... Mannimarco is one of the main antagonists in the game!

    Sheesh.
  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Thank you for answering and thank you for that apology. Sad that you can't tell us more, but it is what it is.
    Tasear wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Tasear wrote: »
    Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.

    @Tasear Then they would be better at breaking free. That is an improvement from Detection, but it is still not good. Also, what is the reason why they would be better at breaking free? That would fit Orcs far more than Bosmer due to being so buff and tough that they can just "shake it off". When it comes to racial passives, if there is no good explanation for a bonus, then it's not a good racial passive.

    Also, remember this?
    Tasear wrote: »

    Not the correct story
    Tasear wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Tasear wrote: »

    Not the correct story

    @Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.

    I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. [...]

    Since Wrathstone is now live and the NDA for Elsweyr has been partially lifted, are you allowed to talk about this now? Your level of confidence suggested that you know more about what went wrong in the Wrathstone update than any of us. ZOS won't even acknowledge our existence here, so if you have any knowledge on the matter that you are allowed to share, please do. Even if you have to black out classified information first.

    Honestly they are unlikely to change it anytime soon, but I do think this has long since reminde[d] them of [the] importance of lore.

    Somehow I feel like these two just don't go along in the same sentence at all. If they have been reminded of the importance of lore, then why have they not fixed the issue in the Elsweyr patch? Why will it be "not any time soon"? A "bandaid fix" is nothing unheard of at all and that is exactly what replacing detection with stealth and leaving the rest as on live would be. They can take a second shot at doing the races justice in a later update, but if the fix to the lore takes so little effort on their part, then they would have done it already if lore was indeed important to them.
    So, no, I don't think they have been reminded of the importance of lore enough and whenever someone in the Elsweyr trailers and teasers says "lore" I make that Hide-the-pain Harold face because the word holds no meaning out of their mouths. And that is very sad, because I used to look forward to updates and new zones.

    Business wise I just don't they could at this point back out of it at least for 2 more years. To them they did give bosmers stealth but missed contation of that in lore that makes them better theives. This is my assumption on current situation.

    I think though if bosmers really were more conhevise in their desires for changes that don't overlap with khajitt then might have a chance at change, but right now I see it as too big of risk. This is just my assumption.
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    Taloros wrote: »
    I'd change the racial as follows:
    - Replace the detection bonus with a stealth bonus, just as the one Khajit got (or rather: kept).
    - Replace the speed/penetration bonus with a 1/2/3 m bonus for all ranges above 20 m, similar to how Dragonknights got a buff for all attacks up to 5 m.

    That'd make the Bosmer stealthy archers without giving them a damage bonus.

    There is even a set for that, so we know its exact value in the "item set bonus count". The only problem I see would be a potential health desync, which Snipe already has issues with but hey. It's a unique bonus that more playstyles than just the bow can take advantage of.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • SpringEternal
    SpringEternal
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    Taloros wrote: »
    I'd change the racial as follows:
    - Replace the detection bonus with a stealth bonus, just as the one Khajit got (or rather: kept).
    - Replace the speed/penetration bonus with a 1/2/3 m bonus for all ranges above 20 m, similar to how Dragonknights got a buff for all attacks up to 5 m.

    That'd make the Bosmer stealthy archers without giving them a damage bonus.

    I <3 this.
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    It's surprisingly difficult to come up with a passive that works as well as decreased detection radius in stealth did. Pairing that with the roll dodge bonuses for Bosmer and critical damage bonuses for Khajiit should be enough to differentiate the two races, imo.

    Well, the thing that would pair well with increased stealth detection radius would have been increased damage while stealthed.

    Which Bosmer had and it was just taken away...

    I guess they could add increased damage to stealthed targets...

    It's still a total and complete slap in the face to bosmer. None of the racial changes were even close to the wreckage they inflicted to bosmer and an entire play style.

    I guess from a racial perspective that khajiit being the stealthiest does make sense, they are cats after all... I guess the thinking would have been something like khajiit=cats, Bosmer=dogs. Cats are sneaky and stealthy, but dogs can find them. The problem turned out to be that ZOS decided they didn't like dogs much.

    If they are dead set on the change they should just make the 3m increased stealth detection into a 3m (I'd push it to 5m) reveal or something. That way, if you get too close to a bosmer... their racial means something.

    For balance reasons, they didn't want to give Bosmer any more bonuses to damage. While I don't love that they took away the increased damage from stealth, I can accept that. What I can't accept is that they took stealth away altogether. As you say, it's a slap in the face to Bosmer. It's also a slap in the face to lore.

    The thing is both Khajiit and Bosmer are sneaky thieves. For the life of me, I can't understand why the developers considered that a problem in need of solving.

    If they wanted to create a cat & dog dynamic they should have given better detection to a warrior race. Rushing in headlong to track down "cowardly" sneakers would fit Orcs or Nords much better than it does Bosmer.


    Detection bonuses would also work nicely on other areas of the game. It pretty much only doesn't work on gear and races because you have to give up the alternatives. But say Werewolfs having an enhanced sense of smell or Vampires being able to detect their prey better (as undead in TES games always seem to have been) doesn't have to compete with any other bonus. The fighter's guild could have it be a passive too since fighters generally don't like sneaky cowards :D
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • KMarble
    KMarble
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    Tasear wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Thank you for answering and thank you for that apology. Sad that you can't tell us more, but it is what it is.
    Tasear wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Tasear wrote: »
    Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.

    @Tasear Then they would be better at breaking free. That is an improvement from Detection, but it is still not good. Also, what is the reason why they would be better at breaking free? That would fit Orcs far more than Bosmer due to being so buff and tough that they can just "shake it off". When it comes to racial passives, if there is no good explanation for a bonus, then it's not a good racial passive.

    Also, remember this?
    Tasear wrote: »

    Not the correct story
    Tasear wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Tasear wrote: »

    Not the correct story

    @Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.

    I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. [...]

    Since Wrathstone is now live and the NDA for Elsweyr has been partially lifted, are you allowed to talk about this now? Your level of confidence suggested that you know more about what went wrong in the Wrathstone update than any of us. ZOS won't even acknowledge our existence here, so if you have any knowledge on the matter that you are allowed to share, please do. Even if you have to black out classified information first.

    Honestly they are unlikely to change it anytime soon, but I do think this has long since reminde[d] them of [the] importance of lore.

    Somehow I feel like these two just don't go along in the same sentence at all. If they have been reminded of the importance of lore, then why have they not fixed the issue in the Elsweyr patch? Why will it be "not any time soon"? A "bandaid fix" is nothing unheard of at all and that is exactly what replacing detection with stealth and leaving the rest as on live would be. They can take a second shot at doing the races justice in a later update, but if the fix to the lore takes so little effort on their part, then they would have done it already if lore was indeed important to them.
    So, no, I don't think they have been reminded of the importance of lore enough and whenever someone in the Elsweyr trailers and teasers says "lore" I make that Hide-the-pain Harold face because the word holds no meaning out of their mouths. And that is very sad, because I used to look forward to updates and new zones.

    Business wise I just don't they could at this point back out of it at least for 2 more years. To them they did give bosmers stealth but missed contation of that in lore that makes them better theives. This is my assumption on current situation.

    I think though if bosmers really were more conhevise in their desires for changes that don't overlap with khajitt then might have a chance at change, but right now I see it as too big of risk. This is just my assumption.

    With all due respect @Tasear , some of your posts feel to me like you're trying to send us in wild goose chases. Many times now I've read posts from you suggesting that we, the affected ones, come up with a new racial passive.

    The thing is that there is a terrible disconnect between what we've been saying and what you claim the devs are willing to do. You see, we WANT STEALTH BACK. Your posts seem to imply that the devs are open to almost anything as long as it is NOT giving stealth back to wood elves.
    Tasear wrote: »
    I think though if bosmers really were more conhevise in their desires for changes that don't overlap with khajitt then might have a chance at change, but right now I see it as too big of risk.

    I'm going to assume you meant cohesive when you wrote "conhevise". When, in this thread, have we not been cohesive? From the get go, we've said over and over again that we want stealth back.

    Why is it, that from all the races, the only two that cannot have one similar racial are Khajiit and wood elves? And such a minor one at that.

    What risk are you talking about? This doesn't make sense. Why would having two races with stealth be any kind of risk?

    (tinfoil hat on) So some players found a way to play wood elves that is borderline exploitation. A very specialized build that allowed them to clear content in both PVP and PVE.

    This play style turned Cyrodiil and IC into a cold war where "soldiers" were being killed by "spies". It also allowed players to bypass content in PVE that took time, money and effort to create.

    The solution found was to take away a fundamental part of what made the build viable - stealth - from those players. And then, because apparently one hand doesn't know what the other hand does inside this organization, they gave players not one, but 3 race change tokens, so that those players who were using this "broken" build could...I don't know...keep on using that build. Now with tail!
    (tinfoil hat off)
This discussion has been closed.