Anyone else has some accidental benefits to share? Not that I think there are a whole lot of them...
Sylvermynx wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »No, it should be discarded and put back to how it should be. Bosmer have never in any game had any kind of stealth detection, it has never been any part of any lore, it is completely inconsistent with how Bosmer have been represented in every aspect of their lore -- which is that they are sneaky masters of hiding. There is no point in wasting time trying to fix what should never have been done in the first place.
Now, I don't know how this would actually work....
But maybe someone(s) should talk to Bethesda? I mean, supposedly ZOS has to deal with beth on lore. So.... this is an absolute abortion of lore. Shouldn't beth be pinged? And wouldn't they be concerned?
I am not sure if contacting Bethesda will do much.
I kept hearing stories about how Todd Howard did not want to do an ES MMO. So I actually wonder how much he even cares what happens in the game. Even though the "claim" is that ESO IS canon, I wonder if Todd takes the game THAT seriously.
After seeing what they did with F76, I wonder if that was what Todd really wanted to do in an ES MMO. And I wonder if he resents the whole concept of ESO as it appears it is NOT under his direct control.
In either case if Todd was made aware, I am just not sure how much he would care. If he did care about ESO, I would have thought he would take at least some time to comment about ESO in general. And other then introducing the game developers, I have never heard him say one thing about ESO ever.
No, "i like what you did with...", type comment or anything like that. Which always struck me as a little odd, unless he really resents it's existence.
Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.
Not the correct story
Not the correct story
@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.
I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. [...]
Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.
@Tasear Then they would be better at breaking free. That is an improvement from Detection, but it is still not good. Also, what is the reason why they would be better at breaking free? That would fit Orcs far more than Bosmer due to being so buff and tough that they can just "shake it off". When it comes to racial passives, if there is no good explanation for a bonus, then it's not a good racial passive.
Also, remember this?
Not the correct story
Not the correct story
@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.
I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. [...]
Since Wrathstone is now live and the NDA for Elsweyr has been partially lifted, are you allowed to talk about this now? Your level of confidence suggested that you know more about what went wrong in the Wrathstone update than any of us. ZOS won't even acknowledge our existence here, so if you have any knowledge on the matter that you are allowed to share, please do. Even if you have to black out classified information first.
Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.
@Tasear Then they would be better at breaking free. That is an improvement from Detection, but it is still not good. Also, what is the reason why they would be better at breaking free? That would fit Orcs far more than Bosmer due to being so buff and tough that they can just "shake it off". When it comes to racial passives, if there is no good explanation for a bonus, then it's not a good racial passive.
Also, remember this?
Not the correct story
Not the correct story
@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.
I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. [...]
Since Wrathstone is now live and the NDA for Elsweyr has been partially lifted, are you allowed to talk about this now? Your level of confidence suggested that you know more about what went wrong in the Wrathstone update than any of us. ZOS won't even acknowledge our existence here, so if you have any knowledge on the matter that you are allowed to share, please do. Even if you have to black out classified information first.
Honestly they are unlikely to change it anytime soon, but I do think this has long since reminde[d] them of [the] importance of lore.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »That's the problem. If they are going to remake Bosmer from thieves to guards there is literally no limit to what they will do. It's nonsense, and it is beyond silly that this travesty has gone on as long as it has. So, yeah. There can absolutely be a patch where Khajiit lose their cat-like features and turn into were-bears or panda people or something stupid.
Thank you for answering and thank you for that apology. Sad that you can't tell us more, but it is what it is.Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.
@Tasear Then they would be better at breaking free. That is an improvement from Detection, but it is still not good. Also, what is the reason why they would be better at breaking free? That would fit Orcs far more than Bosmer due to being so buff and tough that they can just "shake it off". When it comes to racial passives, if there is no good explanation for a bonus, then it's not a good racial passive.
Also, remember this?
Not the correct story
Not the correct story
@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.
I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. [...]
Since Wrathstone is now live and the NDA for Elsweyr has been partially lifted, are you allowed to talk about this now? Your level of confidence suggested that you know more about what went wrong in the Wrathstone update than any of us. ZOS won't even acknowledge our existence here, so if you have any knowledge on the matter that you are allowed to share, please do. Even if you have to black out classified information first.
Honestly they are unlikely to change it anytime soon, but I do think this has long since reminde[d] them of [the] importance of lore.
Somehow I feel like these two just don't go along in the same sentence at all. If they have been reminded of the importance of lore, then why have they not fixed the issue in the Elsweyr patch? Why will it be "not any time soon"? A "bandaid fix" is nothing unheard of at all and that is exactly what replacing detection with stealth and leaving the rest as on live would be. They can take a second shot at doing the races justice in a later update, but if the fix to the lore takes so little effort on their part, then they would have done it already if lore was indeed important to them.
So, no, I don't think they have been reminded of the importance of lore enough and whenever someone in the Elsweyr trailers and teasers says "lore" I make that Hide-the-pain Harold face because the word holds no meaning out of their mouths. And that is very sad, because I used to look forward to updates and new zones.
Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.
Thank you for answering and thank you for that apology. Sad that you can't tell us more, but it is what it is.Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.
@Tasear Then they would be better at breaking free. That is an improvement from Detection, but it is still not good. Also, what is the reason why they would be better at breaking free? That would fit Orcs far more than Bosmer due to being so buff and tough that they can just "shake it off". When it comes to racial passives, if there is no good explanation for a bonus, then it's not a good racial passive.
Also, remember this?
Not the correct story
Not the correct story
@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.
I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. [...]
Since Wrathstone is now live and the NDA for Elsweyr has been partially lifted, are you allowed to talk about this now? Your level of confidence suggested that you know more about what went wrong in the Wrathstone update than any of us. ZOS won't even acknowledge our existence here, so if you have any knowledge on the matter that you are allowed to share, please do. Even if you have to black out classified information first.
Honestly they are unlikely to change it anytime soon, but I do think this has long since reminde[d] them of [the] importance of lore.
Somehow I feel like these two just don't go along in the same sentence at all. If they have been reminded of the importance of lore, then why have they not fixed the issue in the Elsweyr patch? Why will it be "not any time soon"? A "bandaid fix" is nothing unheard of at all and that is exactly what replacing detection with stealth and leaving the rest as on live would be. They can take a second shot at doing the races justice in a later update, but if the fix to the lore takes so little effort on their part, then they would have done it already if lore was indeed important to them.
So, no, I don't think they have been reminded of the importance of lore enough and whenever someone in the Elsweyr trailers and teasers says "lore" I make that Hide-the-pain Harold face because the word holds no meaning out of their mouths. And that is very sad, because I used to look forward to updates and new zones.
Business wise I just don't they could at this point back out of it at least for 2 more years. To them they did give bosmers stealth but missed contation of that in lore that makes them better theives. This is my assumption on current situation.
I think though if bosmers really were more conhevise in their desires for changes that don't overlap with khajitt then might have a chance at change, but right now I see it as too big of risk. This is just my assumption.
Business wise I just don't they could at this point back out of it at least for 2 more years. To them they did give bosmers stealth but missed contation of that in lore that makes them better theives. This is my assumption on current situation.
I think though if bosmers really were more conhevise in their desires for changes that don't overlap with khajitt then might have a chance at change, but right now I see it as too big of risk. This is just my assumption.
Business wise I just don't they could at this point back out of it at least for 2 more years. To them they did give bosmers stealth but missed contation of that in lore that makes them better theives. This is my assumption on current situation.
I think though if bosmers really were more conhevise in their desires for changes that don't overlap with khajitt then might have a chance at change, but right now I see it as too big of risk. This is just my assumption.
Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.
SpringEternal wrote: »It's surprisingly difficult to come up with a passive that works as well as decreased detection radius in stealth did. Pairing that with the roll dodge bonuses for Bosmer and critical damage bonuses for Khajiit should be enough to differentiate the two races, imo.
rfennell_ESO wrote: »SpringEternal wrote: »It's surprisingly difficult to come up with a passive that works as well as decreased detection radius in stealth did. Pairing that with the roll dodge bonuses for Bosmer and critical damage bonuses for Khajiit should be enough to differentiate the two races, imo.
Well, the thing that would pair well with increased stealth detection radius would have been increased damage while stealthed.
Which Bosmer had and it was just taken away...
I guess they could add increased damage to stealthed targets...
It's still a total and complete slap in the face to bosmer. None of the racial changes were even close to the wreckage they inflicted to bosmer and an entire play style.
I guess from a racial perspective that khajiit being the stealthiest does make sense, they are cats after all... I guess the thinking would have been something like khajiit=cats, Bosmer=dogs. Cats are sneaky and stealthy, but dogs can find them. The problem turned out to be that ZOS decided they didn't like dogs much.
If they are dead set on the change they should just make the 3m increased stealth detection into a 3m (I'd push it to 5m) reveal or something. That way, if you get too close to a bosmer... their racial means something.
I'd change the racial as follows:
- Replace the detection bonus with a stealth bonus, just as the one Khajit got (or rather: kept).
- Replace the speed/penetration bonus with a 1/2/3 m bonus for all ranges above 20 m, similar to how Dragonknights got a buff for all attacks up to 5 m.
That'd make the Bosmer stealthy archers without giving them a damage bonus.
rfennell_ESO wrote: »SpringEternal wrote: »It's surprisingly difficult to come up with a passive that works as well as decreased detection radius in stealth did. Pairing that with the roll dodge bonuses for Bosmer and critical damage bonuses for Khajiit should be enough to differentiate the two races, imo.
Well, the thing that would pair well with increased stealth detection radius would have been increased damage while stealthed.
Which Bosmer had and it was just taken away...
I guess they could add increased damage to stealthed targets...
It's still a total and complete slap in the face to bosmer. None of the racial changes were even close to the wreckage they inflicted to bosmer and an entire play style.
I guess from a racial perspective that khajiit being the stealthiest does make sense, they are cats after all... I guess the thinking would have been something like khajiit=cats, Bosmer=dogs. Cats are sneaky and stealthy, but dogs can find them. The problem turned out to be that ZOS decided they didn't like dogs much.
If they are dead set on the change they should just make the 3m increased stealth detection into a 3m (I'd push it to 5m) reveal or something. That way, if you get too close to a bosmer... their racial means something.
I'd change the racial as follows:
- Replace the detection bonus with a stealth bonus, just as the one Khajit got (or rather: kept).
- Replace the speed/penetration bonus with a 1/2/3 m bonus for all ranges above 20 m, similar to how Dragonknights got a buff for all attacks up to 5 m.
That'd make the Bosmer stealthy archers without giving them a damage bonus.
SpringEternal wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »SpringEternal wrote: »It's surprisingly difficult to come up with a passive that works as well as decreased detection radius in stealth did. Pairing that with the roll dodge bonuses for Bosmer and critical damage bonuses for Khajiit should be enough to differentiate the two races, imo.
Well, the thing that would pair well with increased stealth detection radius would have been increased damage while stealthed.
Which Bosmer had and it was just taken away...
I guess they could add increased damage to stealthed targets...
It's still a total and complete slap in the face to bosmer. None of the racial changes were even close to the wreckage they inflicted to bosmer and an entire play style.
I guess from a racial perspective that khajiit being the stealthiest does make sense, they are cats after all... I guess the thinking would have been something like khajiit=cats, Bosmer=dogs. Cats are sneaky and stealthy, but dogs can find them. The problem turned out to be that ZOS decided they didn't like dogs much.
If they are dead set on the change they should just make the 3m increased stealth detection into a 3m (I'd push it to 5m) reveal or something. That way, if you get too close to a bosmer... their racial means something.
For balance reasons, they didn't want to give Bosmer any more bonuses to damage. While I don't love that they took away the increased damage from stealth, I can accept that. What I can't accept is that they took stealth away altogether. As you say, it's a slap in the face to Bosmer. It's also a slap in the face to lore.
The thing is both Khajiit and Bosmer are sneaky thieves. For the life of me, I can't understand why the developers considered that a problem in need of solving.
If they wanted to create a cat & dog dynamic they should have given better detection to a warrior race. Rushing in headlong to track down "cowardly" sneakers would fit Orcs or Nords much better than it does Bosmer.
SpringEternal wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »SpringEternal wrote: »It's surprisingly difficult to come up with a passive that works as well as decreased detection radius in stealth did. Pairing that with the roll dodge bonuses for Bosmer and critical damage bonuses for Khajiit should be enough to differentiate the two races, imo.
Well, the thing that would pair well with increased stealth detection radius would have been increased damage while stealthed.
Which Bosmer had and it was just taken away...
I guess they could add increased damage to stealthed targets...
It's still a total and complete slap in the face to bosmer. None of the racial changes were even close to the wreckage they inflicted to bosmer and an entire play style.
I guess from a racial perspective that khajiit being the stealthiest does make sense, they are cats after all... I guess the thinking would have been something like khajiit=cats, Bosmer=dogs. Cats are sneaky and stealthy, but dogs can find them. The problem turned out to be that ZOS decided they didn't like dogs much.
If they are dead set on the change they should just make the 3m increased stealth detection into a 3m (I'd push it to 5m) reveal or something. That way, if you get too close to a bosmer... their racial means something.
For balance reasons, they didn't want to give Bosmer any more bonuses to damage. While I don't love that they took away the increased damage from stealth, I can accept that. What I can't accept is that they took stealth away altogether. As you say, it's a slap in the face to Bosmer. It's also a slap in the face to lore.
The thing is both Khajiit and Bosmer are sneaky thieves. For the life of me, I can't understand why the developers considered that a problem in need of solving.
If they wanted to create a cat & dog dynamic they should have given better detection to a warrior race. Rushing in headlong to track down "cowardly" sneakers would fit Orcs or Nords much better than it does Bosmer.
Thank you for answering and thank you for that apology. Sad that you can't tell us more, but it is what it is.Had a thought. What if bosmers could break free better then they would be better thieves.
@Tasear Then they would be better at breaking free. That is an improvement from Detection, but it is still not good. Also, what is the reason why they would be better at breaking free? That would fit Orcs far more than Bosmer due to being so buff and tough that they can just "shake it off". When it comes to racial passives, if there is no good explanation for a bonus, then it's not a good racial passive.
Also, remember this?
Not the correct story
Not the correct story
@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.
I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. [...]
Since Wrathstone is now live and the NDA for Elsweyr has been partially lifted, are you allowed to talk about this now? Your level of confidence suggested that you know more about what went wrong in the Wrathstone update than any of us. ZOS won't even acknowledge our existence here, so if you have any knowledge on the matter that you are allowed to share, please do. Even if you have to black out classified information first.
Honestly they are unlikely to change it anytime soon, but I do think this has long since reminde[d] them of [the] importance of lore.
Somehow I feel like these two just don't go along in the same sentence at all. If they have been reminded of the importance of lore, then why have they not fixed the issue in the Elsweyr patch? Why will it be "not any time soon"? A "bandaid fix" is nothing unheard of at all and that is exactly what replacing detection with stealth and leaving the rest as on live would be. They can take a second shot at doing the races justice in a later update, but if the fix to the lore takes so little effort on their part, then they would have done it already if lore was indeed important to them.
So, no, I don't think they have been reminded of the importance of lore enough and whenever someone in the Elsweyr trailers and teasers says "lore" I make that Hide-the-pain Harold face because the word holds no meaning out of their mouths. And that is very sad, because I used to look forward to updates and new zones.
Business wise I just don't they could at this point back out of it at least for 2 more years. To them they did give bosmers stealth but missed contation of that in lore that makes them better theives. This is my assumption on current situation.
I think though if bosmers really were more conhevise in their desires for changes that don't overlap with khajitt then might have a chance at change, but right now I see it as too big of risk. This is just my assumption.
I think though if bosmers really were more conhevise in their desires for changes that don't overlap with khajitt then might have a chance at change, but right now I see it as too big of risk.