@KingLogix
Didn't even read the comments on this. Just want to give you insight. Two patches ago MagSorc was a medium to low tier PvP class. They became a high tier PvP class because Rune Cage gave them the needed extra damage and reliability to land burst which pushed some builds into execute range to finish them off. They are removing the change that pushed MagSorcs into a high tier PvP class and literally reverting them back to what they were 2 patches ago. Just to give you a little insight no one complained about MagSorcs damage 2 patches ago, and the only complaints were player who couldn't 1v1 a MagSorc because they turtled up and shield stacked.
MagSorcs added Rune Cage to their arsenal because it was better than Flame reach. This is no longer the case and MagSorcs will go back to that sub par easy to counter CC that will be instant break and decrease their chances of completing their burst.
Do I care? No. I was a MagSorc at release, I was a MagSorc when they have been at their best, their worst, and so on.
But let's not pretend that after this change that MagSorcs will still be over the top. If they weren't before they buffed Rune Cage then they won't be when they revert it with an increased 20% damage reduction (not that a damage reduction will matter considering the damage is even more unlikely to go off now trollololol).
Just let us be a medium to low tier PvP class who can't physically burst anyone with over 28k health, and melts as soon as 2 players touch their only defense mechanism (damage shields) and let us be.
P.S. the good MagSorcs will adapt, and bad ones will jump ship like every patch. Considering I'll be gaining a bar spot after I drop rune cage I have a plan to take the place of damage I'll be missing from it. Only thing this really does is make meteor useless to me once again... Sigh. It was fun having a decent ultimate while it lasted.
See you in cyrodiil Xbox NA
Removing damage from rune cage is a step in the right direction. Currently this ability leaves no counterplay since it basicly makes no difference many times will You break free or not. If You wont break free sorc will just burst You and You'll die , if You will break free You'll add additional 2-3k dmg to sorc burst which in most cases will be around 10 % of someones health resulting in bringing it closer to or even under 20% health which further results with mages fury proc. Many times people were just killing themselves because they were breaking free. It may be not perfect change but still better then previous 20% dmg reduction.
OP is absolutely right, reducing the damage at this point is moot because they're also increasing sorc burst in this patch with new itemization (Balorgh) by far more than what the Rune Cage damage was.
So in essence the unavoidable burst is even more than it was before, even if Cage itself deals no damage.
I.e. it'll still result in all but tank builds getting evaporated with no feasible counterplay or chance to react.The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.
Except you can't break free because you've already taken two light attacks, a frag & a curse (and possibly a Meteor as well) to the face before it is even physically possible to CC break, resulting in 20k+ damage instakill.
Balorgh increase the all meteor combo by 340 spell damage, but spending a monster set for ultimate combo that happen every 56s can maybe not be that strong.
We need number comparation to really be sure.
Frag Stun would still leave sorcs pretty powerless against perma-dodgers and perma-blockers.
So we need something that allows sorcs to deal with these 2 cancerous builds but does not affect "normal" as much as the current rune cage does. Though I still stand by my assessment that it is really only the clunky CC break that makes it feel so powerful. And both DKs and NBs can be very burst as well and got undodgeable and unblockable CCs with gap closers to ensure they are in range.
Nevertheless, to appease the situation I have the following suggestion, that achieves both counterplay to Rune Cage and counterplay on the side of the sorcs against perma-dodgers and perma-blockers.
Keep Rune Cage undodgable, since the perma-dodgers are already able to evade most things and damage in PvP. Especially the single target sorc abilities (to which class Rune Cage belongs after all).
But make it blockable with the added secondary effect that it increases the block costs of future blocks for X seconds. The secondary effect is neither dodgeable or blockable.
The result:
Sorcs have a tool to deal with perma dodgers, which they have struggled with since the creation of the game.
Sorcs also have a way to deal with the perma-block meta builds, by draining their blocking resource.
BUT regular builds are pretty much unaffected as they can simply block the CC (much like CFrag or Destructive Reach). So to those builds it will be like the good old times, while the cheesy builds finally got some counterplay from sorcs.
Fear and Fosilize should get the same treatment then though!
omg? so now they reverted rune cage too the point were no sorc will use it again, and your still complaining?! WTF?!
OP is absolutely right, reducing the damage at this point is moot because they're also increasing sorc burst in this patch with new itemization (Balorgh) by far more than what the Rune Cage damage was.
So in essence the unavoidable burst is even more than it was before, even if Cage itself deals no damage.
I.e. it'll still result in all but tank builds getting evaporated with no feasible counterplay or chance to react.The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.
Except you can't break free because you've already taken two light attacks, a frag & a curse (and possibly a Meteor as well) to the face before it is even physically possible to CC break, resulting in 20k+ damage instakill.
Balorgh increase the all meteor combo by 340 spell damage, but spending a monster set for ultimate combo that happen every 56s can maybe not be that strong.
We need number comparation to really be sure.
340? You wish.
It increases spell damage by 1000 if it consumes 500 ultimate (i.e. you use Meteor at 500 ulti) & I've already got the numbers from PTS:
Comparing 2x Slimecraw to 2x Balorgh (500 ulti)*, hitting a target dummy:
Shooting Star 39 193->43 992 - 4799 more burst | 2400 after Battle Spirit
Curse 29 695->33 382 - 3687 more burst | 1843 after Battle Spirit
Frag 36 700->41 392 - 4692 more burst | 2346 after Battle Spirit
Light Attack 13 237->15 062 - 1825 more burst | 912 after Battle Spirit
15 003 more burst with Balorgh, 7,5k'ish in PvP
Needless to say, that's more than Rune Cage hits for on Live so people will still get one shot by uncounterable sorc burst - even more so than before.
*Rest of the gear: 5x Spinner's 5x Destruction Mastery
OP is absolutely right, reducing the damage at this point is moot because they're also increasing sorc burst in this patch with new itemization (Balorgh) by far more than what the Rune Cage damage was.
So in essence the unavoidable burst is even more than it was before, even if Cage itself deals no damage.
I.e. it'll still result in all but tank builds getting evaporated with no feasible counterplay or chance to react.The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.
Except you can't break free because you've already taken two light attacks, a frag & a curse (and possibly a Meteor as well) to the face before it is even physically possible to CC break, resulting in 20k+ damage instakill.
Balorgh increase the all meteor combo by 340 spell damage, but spending a monster set for ultimate combo that happen every 56s can maybe not be that strong.
We need number comparation to really be sure.
340? You wish.
It increases spell damage by 1000 if it consumes 500 ultimate (i.e. you use Meteor at 500 ulti) & I've already got the numbers from PTS:
Comparing 2x Slimecraw to 2x Balorgh (500 ulti)*, hitting a target dummy:
Shooting Star 39 193->43 992 - 4799 more burst | 2400 after Battle Spirit
Curse 29 695->33 382 - 3687 more burst | 1843 after Battle Spirit
Frag 36 700->41 392 - 4692 more burst | 2346 after Battle Spirit
Light Attack 13 237->15 062 - 1825 more burst | 912 after Battle Spirit
15 003 more burst with Balorgh, 7,5k'ish in PvP
Needless to say, that's more than Rune Cage hits for on Live so people will still get one shot by uncounterable sorc burst - even more so than before.
*Rest of the gear: 5x Spinner's 5x Destruction Mastery
First off, hyperbole. How does requiring around 3x the ultimate equate to "even more so than before"?
Isn't that an extremely skewed example? A sorc isn't going be spamming meteors, nor do so with 500 ultimate and the above issue has more to do with Balorgh than meteor. Having to save 500 ultimate makes it no different from a DK or even NB burst w/ Balorgh. A DK or Nightblades burst with 500 ultimate Balorgh is going to be just as deadly because it's simply overkill damage after a certain point. You're going to an extreme to guarantee a kill which isn't even guaranteed. And don't bring range into it because a nb and DK can close gaps very easily, even against a magsorc which is supposed to use mobility as its main defence (in theory, obviously not practice)
If you see meteor cast cloak, wings, cleanse, shield stack, Shimmering, pop an immovable or just CC the sorc. The combo has counters on live, the only problem is that those counters have significantly less uptime than the Cage combo. Without the damage, Sorc burst simply isn't there, so they only have kill potential with an ultimate dump now, which will share the same cooldown as many of the Cage's counters.
Sorc burst without the Rune Cage damage is not strong enough to kill a proper build. If a player builds glass then they accept the risks with being squishy. If players are dying to the generic Curse-fury-frag combo, then that they need to build tankier or build to suit the game mode. I've DUELED medium builds that can survive the the Meteor combo. What these builds can't do on live is maintain resources dealing with the close to insta-burst every 10 seconds and then survive the second meteor combo. If they don't get hit by Rune Cage damage, they don't get hit by Fury execute which means they feel no real additional pressure for 3.5 seconds and can pop a vigor/shield and be right back in the fight.
The damage nerf is a lot more than people who don't understand the sorc class realize. I ran Cage before it dealt damage and believe me, it makes a big difference. If you're going to present hard numbers, don't use extreme outliers and incorporate the fact that Sorcs are now missing out on 20k tooltip damage. The only builds that will die to sorcs without an ultimate now are outdated or glass-cannon specs.
I'll shelf my sorc (already have, played it for a week of SS then went to stam sorc), not because I lost Cage, but because magsorc is such a mess right now. Funny how changing 1 tooltip damage takes the class from op to average.
I'm all for removing Cage from the sorc kit but only if frags gets its CC back. Reach sorc is fine but it pidgeon holes the class with the least versatility in the game even further. Removing the damage is a compromise because despite ZoS reverting the Rune Cage changes, they refuse to do so for the Frag nerfs which threw the class completely out of balance.
OP is absolutely right, reducing the damage at this point is moot because they're also increasing sorc burst in this patch with new itemization (Balorgh) by far more than what the Rune Cage damage was.
So in essence the unavoidable burst is even more than it was before, even if Cage itself deals no damage.
I.e. it'll still result in all but tank builds getting evaporated with no feasible counterplay or chance to react.The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.
Except you can't break free because you've already taken two light attacks, a frag & a curse (and possibly a Meteor as well) to the face before it is even physically possible to CC break, resulting in 20k+ damage instakill.
Balorgh increase the all meteor combo by 340 spell damage, but spending a monster set for ultimate combo that happen every 56s can maybe not be that strong.
We need number comparation to really be sure.
340? You wish.
It increases spell damage by 1000 if it consumes 500 ultimate (i.e. you use Meteor at 500 ulti) & I've already got the numbers from PTS:
Comparing 2x Slimecraw to 2x Balorgh (500 ulti)*, hitting a target dummy:
Shooting Star 39 193->43 992 - 4799 more burst | 2400 after Battle Spirit
Curse 29 695->33 382 - 3687 more burst | 1843 after Battle Spirit
Frag 36 700->41 392 - 4692 more burst | 2346 after Battle Spirit
Light Attack 13 237->15 062 - 1825 more burst | 912 after Battle Spirit
15 003 more burst with Balorgh, 7,5k'ish in PvP
Needless to say, that's more than Rune Cage hits for on Live so people will still get one shot by uncounterable sorc burst - even more so than before.
*Rest of the gear: 5x Spinner's 5x Destruction Mastery
First off, hyperbole. How does requiring around 3x the ultimate equate to "even more so than before"?
You get one shot "even more so than before" - as in, the maximum burst these builds deliver to you is even more than in previous patch (in which it already resulted in unavoidable death for non-tank builds).
It means RC combo will be able to kill even tankier targets than previous patch as long as it is unavoidable.Isn't that an extremely skewed example? A sorc isn't going be spamming meteors, nor do so with 500 ultimate and the above issue has more to do with Balorgh than meteor. Having to save 500 ultimate makes it no different from a DK or even NB burst w/ Balorgh. A DK or Nightblades burst with 500 ultimate Balorgh is going to be just as deadly because it's simply overkill damage after a certain point. You're going to an extreme to guarantee a kill which isn't even guaranteed. And don't bring range into it because a nb and DK can close gaps very easily, even against a magsorc which is supposed to use mobility as its main defence (in theory, obviously not practice)
No, but a good player doesn't use Meteor on cooldown anyway.
The frequency of these bursts doesn't matter though because it's game over after the first Meteor.
And please, don't even mention DK or NB burst in the same sentence with Sorcs.
Sorc burst is over 50% more damage than either of those (I can dig up a post where I have numbers carefully detailed), damage which all gets amplified by +1000 spell damage - meaning it widens the difference even more.
And just as easily as some builds can use gap closers, I can dodge roll out of Fear range & cloak to prevent Fossilize every time they try that...
So these classes have over 400% worse range on their hard CC and 50% worse burst, but somehow they're "no different"? Please.
Not to mention that if you react quick enough by CC breaking & dodging you can avoid all burst damage after Fear (https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE) and all burst damage except Leap after Fossilize.If you see meteor cast cloak, wings, cleanse, shield stack, Shimmering, pop an immovable or just CC the sorc. The combo has counters on live, the only problem is that those counters have significantly less uptime than the Cage combo. Without the damage, Sorc burst simply isn't there, so they only have kill potential with an ultimate dump now, which will share the same cooldown as many of the Cage's counters.
Why does this remind me of the "just purge it" response to Sloads? Some of you really go to great lengths to defend your "I-Win buttons".
It's good you atleast acknowledge these "counters" have less uptime than RC combos & some of them (like cloak) don't work at all in certain circumstances.Sorc burst without the Rune Cage damage is not strong enough to kill a proper build. If a player builds glass then they accept the risks with being squishy. If players are dying to the generic Curse-fury-frag combo, then that they need to build tankier or build to suit the game mode. I've DUELED medium builds that can survive the the Meteor combo. What these builds can't do on live is maintain resources dealing with the close to insta-burst every 10 seconds and then survive the second meteor combo. If they don't get hit by Rune Cage damage, they don't get hit by Fury execute which means they feel no real additional pressure for 3.5 seconds and can pop a vigor/shield and be right back in the fight.
Really, we have to just "accept the risks of being squishy" and die to unavoidable burst? So how about sorcs who build even squishier and then hide behind 30k shield stacks - are they exempt from this rule?
I've tested RC combo without Meteor on medium armor builds that sacrifice most of their damage by slotting sets like Impregnable, here's an example: https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU
The damage isn't survivable now if you build at all for dmg on Sorc, and it sure as hell won't be next patch when there's even more damage.The damage nerf is a lot more than people who don't understand the sorc class realize. I ran Cage before it dealt damage and believe me, it makes a big difference. If you're going to present hard numbers, don't use extreme outliers and incorporate the fact that Sorcs are now missing out on 20k tooltip damage. The only builds that will die to sorcs without an ultimate now are outdated or glass-cannon specs.
What exactly is wrong with my numbers & what do you mean by "missing out on 20k tooltip damage"? Highest RC tooltip I've got was around 10k.
Sorc burst in Wolfhunter is higher, not lower.I'll shelf my sorc (already have, played it for a week of SS then went to stam sorc), not because I lost Cage, but because magsorc is such a mess right now. Funny how changing 1 tooltip damage takes the class from op to average.
I'm all for removing Cage from the sorc kit but only if frags gets its CC back. Reach sorc is fine but it pidgeon holes the class with the least versatility in the game even further. Removing the damage is a compromise because despite ZoS reverting the Rune Cage changes, they refuse to do so for the Frag nerfs which threw the class completely out of balance.
The skill would be more balanced if it kept the damage but was dodgeable as mentioned in last ESO Live.
Current iteration of RC fixes none of the issues as long as the maximum guaranteed burst remains higher than non-tank builds' health pools.
Skills that enable huge amounts of burst to land and have no real counterplay can never be balanced and will always limit ZOS's itemization design and/or players' build diversity - there needs to be a feasible way to prevent getting Rune Caged & then hit by the highest burst damage in the game.
OP is absolutely right, reducing the damage at this point is moot because they're also increasing sorc burst in this patch with new itemization (Balorgh) by far more than what the Rune Cage damage was.
So in essence the unavoidable burst is even more than it was before, even if Cage itself deals no damage.
I.e. it'll still result in all but tank builds getting evaporated with no feasible counterplay or chance to react.The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.
Except you can't break free because you've already taken two light attacks, a frag & a curse (and possibly a Meteor as well) to the face before it is even physically possible to CC break, resulting in 20k+ damage instakill.
Balorgh increase the all meteor combo by 340 spell damage, but spending a monster set for ultimate combo that happen every 56s can maybe not be that strong.
We need number comparation to really be sure.
340? You wish.
It increases spell damage by 1000 if it consumes 500 ultimate (i.e. you use Meteor at 500 ulti) & I've already got the numbers from PTS:
Comparing 2x Slimecraw to 2x Balorgh (500 ulti)*, hitting a target dummy:
Shooting Star 39 193->43 992 - 4799 more burst | 2400 after Battle Spirit
Curse 29 695->33 382 - 3687 more burst | 1843 after Battle Spirit
Frag 36 700->41 392 - 4692 more burst | 2346 after Battle Spirit
Light Attack 13 237->15 062 - 1825 more burst | 912 after Battle Spirit
15 003 more burst with Balorgh, 7,5k'ish in PvP
Needless to say, that's more than Rune Cage hits for on Live so people will still get one shot by uncounterable sorc burst - even more so than before.
*Rest of the gear: 5x Spinner's 5x Destruction Mastery
First off, hyperbole. How does requiring around 3x the ultimate equate to "even more so than before"?
You get one shot "even more so than before" - as in, the maximum burst these builds deliver to you is even more than in previous patch (in which it already resulted in unavoidable death for non-tank builds).
It means RC combo will be able to kill even tankier targets than previous patch as long as it is unavoidable.Isn't that an extremely skewed example? A sorc isn't going be spamming meteors, nor do so with 500 ultimate and the above issue has more to do with Balorgh than meteor. Having to save 500 ultimate makes it no different from a DK or even NB burst w/ Balorgh. A DK or Nightblades burst with 500 ultimate Balorgh is going to be just as deadly because it's simply overkill damage after a certain point. You're going to an extreme to guarantee a kill which isn't even guaranteed. And don't bring range into it because a nb and DK can close gaps very easily, even against a magsorc which is supposed to use mobility as its main defence (in theory, obviously not practice)
No, but a good player doesn't use Meteor on cooldown anyway.
The frequency of these bursts doesn't matter though because it's game over after the first Meteor.
And please, don't even mention DK or NB burst in the same sentence with Sorcs.
Sorc burst is over 50% more damage than either of those (I can dig up a post where I have numbers carefully detailed), damage which all gets amplified by +1000 spell damage - meaning it widens the difference even more.
And just as easily as some builds can use gap closers, I can dodge roll out of Fear range & cloak to prevent Fossilize every time they try that...
So these classes have over 400% worse range on their hard CC and 50% worse burst, but somehow they're "no different"? Please.
Not to mention that if you react quick enough by CC breaking & dodging you can avoid all burst damage after Fear (https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE) and all burst damage except Leap after Fossilize.If you see meteor cast cloak, wings, cleanse, shield stack, Shimmering, pop an immovable or just CC the sorc. The combo has counters on live, the only problem is that those counters have significantly less uptime than the Cage combo. Without the damage, Sorc burst simply isn't there, so they only have kill potential with an ultimate dump now, which will share the same cooldown as many of the Cage's counters.
Why does this remind me of the "just purge it" response to Sloads? Some of you really go to great lengths to defend your "I-Win buttons".
It's good you atleast acknowledge these "counters" have less uptime than RC combos & some of them (like cloak) don't work at all in certain circumstances.Sorc burst without the Rune Cage damage is not strong enough to kill a proper build. If a player builds glass then they accept the risks with being squishy. If players are dying to the generic Curse-fury-frag combo, then that they need to build tankier or build to suit the game mode. I've DUELED medium builds that can survive the the Meteor combo. What these builds can't do on live is maintain resources dealing with the close to insta-burst every 10 seconds and then survive the second meteor combo. If they don't get hit by Rune Cage damage, they don't get hit by Fury execute which means they feel no real additional pressure for 3.5 seconds and can pop a vigor/shield and be right back in the fight.
Really, we have to just "accept the risks of being squishy" and die to unavoidable burst? So how about sorcs who build even squishier and then hide behind 30k shield stacks - are they exempt from this rule?
I've tested RC combo without Meteor on medium armor builds that sacrifice most of their damage by slotting sets like Impregnable, here's an example: https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU
The damage isn't survivable now if you build at all for dmg on Sorc, and it sure as hell won't be next patch when there's even more damage.The damage nerf is a lot more than people who don't understand the sorc class realize. I ran Cage before it dealt damage and believe me, it makes a big difference. If you're going to present hard numbers, don't use extreme outliers and incorporate the fact that Sorcs are now missing out on 20k tooltip damage. The only builds that will die to sorcs without an ultimate now are outdated or glass-cannon specs.
What exactly is wrong with my numbers & what do you mean by "missing out on 20k tooltip damage"? Highest RC tooltip I've got was around 10k.
Sorc burst in Wolfhunter is higher, not lower.I'll shelf my sorc (already have, played it for a week of SS then went to stam sorc), not because I lost Cage, but because magsorc is such a mess right now. Funny how changing 1 tooltip damage takes the class from op to average.
I'm all for removing Cage from the sorc kit but only if frags gets its CC back. Reach sorc is fine but it pidgeon holes the class with the least versatility in the game even further. Removing the damage is a compromise because despite ZoS reverting the Rune Cage changes, they refuse to do so for the Frag nerfs which threw the class completely out of balance.
The skill would be more balanced if it kept the damage but was dodgeable as mentioned in last ESO Live.
Current iteration of RC fixes none of the issues as long as the maximum guaranteed burst remains higher than non-tank builds' health pools.
Skills that enable huge amounts of burst to land and have no real counterplay can never be balanced and will always limit ZOS's itemization design and/or players' build diversity - there needs to be a feasible way to prevent getting Rune Caged & then hit by the highest burst damage in the game.
@DDuke
Holy ***, this entire post revolves around spending 500 ultimate and gaining 1000 spell damage from a new set. You think a DK with a meteor fossilize won't have the same strength? Or a nightblade with that kind of damage increase on an incap?
And fyi that 20k tooltip is pulled from the 8k rune cage that is removed and the 12k endless fury that no longer goes off because the player will remain above 20% through the burst.
Your opinion is so bias that you're taking a new monster set available to everyone and directly applying it to MagSorcs so it's going to make ONLY them overpowered.
We already have dawnbreakers nearly one shotting players, incaps reversing fights, leaps doing 20k to players, and the list goes on... Imagine THOSE with an additional 1k weapon/spell damage.
Drop your agenda, and open your eyes. MagSorc were a subpar class 2 patches ago and they will be a subpar class when they revert the thing that pushed us into a higher tier PvP class.
You complain about being one shot when a MagSorc is forced into this style of gameplay, and is so pigeonholed into it that if a player is built to survive their "OP burst" the MagSorc has no hope of killing that player because once it goes off, there is no follow up. The next one will come 4 seconds later best case scenario, when you're at full health again. But you're fine with that because it makes MagSorcs Cannon fodder and a nonthreat.
The point of brining up mDk and nb is that with the scenario you set forth with Balorgh, the extra damage gained at 500 ultimate is redundant; ergo any class in the scenario you proposed will be able to instaburst a non-tank build suggesting that the set is more of a problem than the class.
No, but a good player doesn't use Meteor on cooldown anyway.
The frequency of these bursts doesn't matter though because it's game over after the first Meteor.
And please, don't even mention DK or NB burst in the same sentence with Sorcs.
Sorc burst is over 50% more damage than either of those (I can dig up a post where I have numbers carefully detailed), damage which all gets amplified by +1000 spell damage - meaning it widens the difference even more.
And just as easily as some builds can use gap closers, I can dodge roll out of Fear range & cloak to prevent Fossilize every time they try that...
So these classes have over 400% worse range on their hard CC and 50% worse burst, but somehow they're "no different"? Please.
There's a pretty big difference between "just purge it" and the counters I listed. 1 being that all those counters are actually meta skills, so most builds aren't sacrificing anything and another being that the skills listed aren't being slotted solely to counter 1 mechanic.
Not to mention that if you react quick enough by CC breaking & dodging you can avoid all burst damage after Fear (https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE) and all burst damage except Leap after Fossilize.Why does this remind me of the "just purge it" response to Sloads? Some of you really go to great lengths to defend your "I-Win buttons".If you see meteor cast cloak, wings, cleanse, shield stack, Shimmering, pop an immovable or just CC the sorc. The combo has counters on live, the only problem is that those counters have significantly less uptime than the Cage combo. Without the damage, Sorc burst simply isn't there, so they only have kill potential with an ultimate dump now, which will share the same cooldown as many of the Cage's counters.
It's good you atleast acknowledge these "counters" have less uptime than RC combos & some of them (like cloak) don't work at all in certain circumstances.
I'm not talking about the buggy animation which I agree should be fixed for proper counter play and fluidity for both parties. What I'm referring to is the damage nerf having a bigger impact than you realize. If I build full damage on a sorc I'm dueling so I'm assuming you're not referring to duel builds. Open world sorcs tend to build more into sustain. I've fought magsorcs 1v1 on my NB that runs all offensive medium sets with only 2 health glyphs being my commitment to mitigation. I've gone back and forth with good players that I know are just as good if not better than me because I main magsorc, I understand the class and therefore I know how to fight it.Sorc burst without the Rune Cage damage is not strong enough to kill a proper build. If a player builds glass then they accept the risks with being squishy. If players are dying to the generic Curse-fury-frag combo, then that they need to build tankier or build to suit the game mode. I've DUELED medium builds that can survive the the Meteor combo. What these builds can't do on live is maintain resources dealing with the close to insta-burst every 10 seconds and then survive the second meteor combo. If they don't get hit by Rune Cage damage, they don't get hit by Fury execute which means they feel no real additional pressure for 3.5 seconds and can pop a vigor/shield and be right back in the fight.
Really, we have to just "accept the risks of being squishy" and die to unavoidable burst? So how about sorcs who build even squishier and then hide behind 30k shield stacks - are they exempt from this rule?
I've tested RC combo without Meteor on medium armor builds that sacrifice most of their damage by slotting sets like Impregnable, here's an example: https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU
The damage isn't survivable now if you build at all for dmg on Sorc, and it sure as hell won't be next patch when there's even more damage.
You're numbers are mathematically correct. But how many times have you gone to a grocery and seen some lady named Susan walking out with 100 Watermelons? That's simply not how it works in practice. For all your damage calculations, prior to the damage on Rune, very rarely did a magsorc get a competent opponent from full health to execute range in 1 combo. Even with an ultimate dump, you would need a few rotations to wait for your opponent to mess up. Without the Rune damage (well drop it to a 7.5k tooltip) a non-glass opponent isn't going to fall into execute which means thats Fury (15k tooltip) isn't going to go off.The damage nerf is a lot more than people who don't understand the sorc class realize. I ran Cage before it dealt damage and believe me, it makes a big difference. If you're going to present hard numbers, don't use extreme outliers and incorporate the fact that Sorcs are now missing out on 20k tooltip damage. The only builds that will die to sorcs without an ultimate now are outdated or glass-cannon specs.
What exactly is wrong with my numbers & what do you mean by "missing out on 20k tooltip damage"? Highest RC tooltip I've got was around 10k.
Sorc burst in Wolfhunter is higher, not lower.
No, it wouldn't be more balanced, it would be beneficial to glass-cannon roll dodge builds and useless to magsorcs who will just slot Clench because it will simply be better overall and magsorcs are back to potato farming.I'll shelf my sorc (already have, played it for a week of SS then went to stam sorc), not because I lost Cage, but because magsorc is such a mess right now. Funny how changing 1 tooltip damage takes the class from op to average.
I'm all for removing Cage from the sorc kit but only if frags gets its CC back. Reach sorc is fine but it pidgeon holes the class with the least versatility in the game even further. Removing the damage is a compromise because despite ZoS reverting the Rune Cage changes, they refuse to do so for the Frag nerfs which threw the class completely out of balance.
The skill would be more balanced if it kept the damage but was dodgeable as mentioned in last ESO Live.
Current iteration of RC fixes none of the issues as long as the maximum guaranteed burst remains higher than non-tank builds' health pools.
Skills that enable huge amounts of burst to land and have no real counterplay can never be balanced and will always limit ZOS's itemization design and/or players' build diversity - there needs to be a feasible way to prevent getting Rune Caged & then hit by the highest burst damage in the game.
Needless to say, that's more than Rune Cage hits for on Live so people will still get one shot by uncounterable sorc burst - even more so than before.
The point of brining up mDk and nb is that with the scenario you set forth with Balorgh, the extra damage gained at 500 ultimate is redundant; ergo any class in the scenario you proposed will be able to instaburst a non-tank build suggesting that the set is more of a problem than the class.
No, but a good player doesn't use Meteor on cooldown anyway.
The frequency of these bursts doesn't matter though because it's game over after the first Meteor.
And please, don't even mention DK or NB burst in the same sentence with Sorcs.
Sorc burst is over 50% more damage than either of those (I can dig up a post where I have numbers carefully detailed), damage which all gets amplified by +1000 spell damage - meaning it widens the difference even more.
And just as easily as some builds can use gap closers, I can dodge roll out of Fear range & cloak to prevent Fossilize every time they try that...
So these classes have over 400% worse range on their hard CC and 50% worse burst, but somehow they're "no different"? Please.
There's a pretty big difference between "just purge it" and the counters I listed. 1 being that all those counters are actually meta skills, so most builds aren't sacrificing anything and another being that the skills listed aren't being slotted solely to counter 1 mechanic.Not to mention that if you react quick enough by CC breaking & dodging you can avoid all burst damage after Fear (https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE) and all burst damage except Leap after Fossilize.Why does this remind me of the "just purge it" response to Sloads? Some of you really go to great lengths to defend your "I-Win buttons".If you see meteor cast cloak, wings, cleanse, shield stack, Shimmering, pop an immovable or just CC the sorc. The combo has counters on live, the only problem is that those counters have significantly less uptime than the Cage combo. Without the damage, Sorc burst simply isn't there, so they only have kill potential with an ultimate dump now, which will share the same cooldown as many of the Cage's counters.
It's good you atleast acknowledge these "counters" have less uptime than RC combos & some of them (like cloak) don't work at all in certain circumstances.
The only stam class I have in heavy is my sDK. Every other class runs medium and I've dueled sorcs of equal or greater skill level. There are counters. Is it overbearing on live? Yes. But is it void of counterplay? On live, it is void of consistent counterplay but with the damage removed from Rune Cage, the only time a sorc will be a threat is when they have ultimate, and a very costly one at that. The combo doesn't work quite the same with DB. In fact, I'll be swapping back to DB over Meteor because Meteor is simply unreliable relatively. It
I'm not talking about the buggy animation which I agree should be fixed for proper counter play and fluidity for both parties. What I'm referring to is the damage nerf having a bigger impact than you realize. If I build full damage on a sorc I'm dueling so I'm assuming you're not referring to duel builds. Open world sorcs tend to build more into sustain. I've fought magsorcs 1v1 on my NB that runs all offensive medium sets with only 2 health glyphs being my commitment to mitigation. I've gone back and forth with good players that I know are just as good if not better than me because I main magsorc, I understand the class and therefore I know how to fight it.Sorc burst without the Rune Cage damage is not strong enough to kill a proper build. If a player builds glass then they accept the risks with being squishy. If players are dying to the generic Curse-fury-frag combo, then that they need to build tankier or build to suit the game mode. I've DUELED medium builds that can survive the the Meteor combo. What these builds can't do on live is maintain resources dealing with the close to insta-burst every 10 seconds and then survive the second meteor combo. If they don't get hit by Rune Cage damage, they don't get hit by Fury execute which means they feel no real additional pressure for 3.5 seconds and can pop a vigor/shield and be right back in the fight.
Really, we have to just "accept the risks of being squishy" and die to unavoidable burst? So how about sorcs who build even squishier and then hide behind 30k shield stacks - are they exempt from this rule?
I've tested RC combo without Meteor on medium armor builds that sacrifice most of their damage by slotting sets like Impregnable, here's an example: https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU
The damage isn't survivable now if you build at all for dmg on Sorc, and it sure as hell won't be next patch when there's even more damage.
The damage is definitely survivable now, except you want to survive it on a build that even you admit is glass. You run stealth builds so if you're caught out long enough to have a full Curse-fury-meteor-Rune-Frag combo that's more on you.
You're numbers are mathematically correct. But how many times have you gone to a grocery and seen some lady named Susan walking out with 100 Watermelons? That's simply not how it works in practice. For all your damage calculations, prior to the damage on Rune, very rarely did a magsorc get a competent opponent from full health to execute range in 1 combo. Even with an ultimate dump, you would need a few rotations to wait for your opponent to mess up. Without the Rune damage (well drop it to a 7.5k tooltip) a non-glass opponent isn't going to fall into execute which means thats Fury (15k tooltip) isn't going to go off.The damage nerf is a lot more than people who don't understand the sorc class realize. I ran Cage before it dealt damage and believe me, it makes a big difference. If you're going to present hard numbers, don't use extreme outliers and incorporate the fact that Sorcs are now missing out on 20k tooltip damage. The only builds that will die to sorcs without an ultimate now are outdated or glass-cannon specs.
What exactly is wrong with my numbers & what do you mean by "missing out on 20k tooltip damage"? Highest RC tooltip I've got was around 10k.
Sorc burst in Wolfhunter is higher, not lower.
If you want a real example, subtract Vigor and Rally/FM ticks for all stam classes, remove Curse for Magplars, remove Frags for mDKs and a good portion of sDKs who are going to run wings for snare removal, remove frags for a magden due to shimmering and apply minor protection, remove or half the damage of frags since nightblades can cloak them--apply minor Maim for mNBs etc.. You're numbers are right. If you're fighting a potato.
No, it wouldn't be more balanced, it would be beneficial to glass-cannon roll dodge builds and useless to magsorcs who will just slot Clench because it will simply be better overall and magsorcs are back to potato farming.I'll shelf my sorc (already have, played it for a week of SS then went to stam sorc), not because I lost Cage, but because magsorc is such a mess right now. Funny how changing 1 tooltip damage takes the class from op to average.
I'm all for removing Cage from the sorc kit but only if frags gets its CC back. Reach sorc is fine but it pidgeon holes the class with the least versatility in the game even further. Removing the damage is a compromise because despite ZoS reverting the Rune Cage changes, they refuse to do so for the Frag nerfs which threw the class completely out of balance.
The skill would be more balanced if it kept the damage but was dodgeable as mentioned in last ESO Live.
Current iteration of RC fixes none of the issues as long as the maximum guaranteed burst remains higher than non-tank builds' health pools.
Skills that enable huge amounts of burst to land and have no real counterplay can never be balanced and will always limit ZOS's itemization design and/or players' build diversity - there needs to be a feasible way to prevent getting Rune Caged & then hit by the highest burst damage in the game.
Now this is a valid argument. Everything else you said is just bias towards your preferred play style. However, there are feasible ways to prevent getting Rune Caged. The damage is no longer as threatening because the normal burst is losing out on +20k tooltip damage. You simply refuse to adapt. Honestly, stop using your build as a baseline because all you're doing is proliferating misleading information about sorcs that will lead to them being nerfed/buffed in the wrong areas--ZoS' preferred balance strategy. Be like @BohnT BohnT's argument is that no class should have access to both unavoidable damage and unblockable/unavoidable CC. Make that the basis of your argument @DDuke and you'll get more support instead of presenting half truths.
Everyone else has had to build tankier ever since SS. Medium armor builds tend to run 1 defensive set (except cloak blades) and while Heavy still runs 2 offensive or 1 mixed set (BP) IMO, this is indicative of balance since heavy and medium tend to build towards each other. All that's left is to nerf shield stacking so they can buff individual shields so that light armor is viable on all classes.
But guess what. That will never happen until mag sorc is balanced. Prior to the frag nerfs m sorc was only overperforming defensively but people who don't understand the class complained about it's burst and mSorc was gutted to the point where ZoS felt an unblockable/undodgable CC that dealt 4k damage was necessary for balance. On live it over performs everywhere but completely gutting Rune Cage will make the class bottom tier.
Again. I'll end with the fact that I FULLY SUPPORT removing Rune Cage entirely IF AND ONLY IF sorcs are compensated by having Frags unnerved. Come on ZoS. You reverted 1 change, now revert that one that matters.
Itemization is now a Sorc class problem. Let’s nerf Sorc more because sets aren’t well designed. Brilliant.
And an ultimate shouldn’t be able to kill you - if it’s used by a Sorc. Brave new world.
Tbh, if Streak is now a balanced CC to deal with dodge rollers... rofl.
OP is absolutely right, reducing the damage at this point is moot because they're also increasing sorc burst in this patch with new itemization (Balorgh) by far more than what the Rune Cage damage was.
So in essence the unavoidable burst is even more than it was before, even if Cage itself deals no damage.
I.e. it'll still result in all but tank builds getting evaporated with no feasible counterplay or chance to react.The counter play is to break free like you do with every other hard CC.
Except you can't break free because you've already taken two light attacks, a frag & a curse (and possibly a Meteor as well) to the face before it is even physically possible to CC break, resulting in 20k+ damage instakill.
Balorgh increase the all meteor combo by 340 spell damage, but spending a monster set for ultimate combo that happen every 56s can maybe not be that strong.
We need number comparation to really be sure.
340? You wish.
It increases spell damage by 1000 if it consumes 500 ultimate (i.e. you use Meteor at 500 ulti) & I've already got the numbers from PTS:
Comparing 2x Slimecraw to 2x Balorgh (500 ulti)*, hitting a target dummy:
Shooting Star 39 193->43 992 - 4799 more burst | 2400 after Battle Spirit
Curse 29 695->33 382 - 3687 more burst | 1843 after Battle Spirit
Frag 36 700->41 392 - 4692 more burst | 2346 after Battle Spirit
Light Attack 13 237->15 062 - 1825 more burst | 912 after Battle Spirit
15 003 more burst with Balorgh, 7,5k'ish in PvP
Needless to say, that's more than Rune Cage hits for on Live so people will still get one shot by uncounterable sorc burst - even more so than before.
*Rest of the gear: 5x Spinner's 5x Destruction Mastery
Just remember guys: Sorcs can blow you up in 2 seconds flat from far away AND shield stack at will and never take damage to their health pool AND run away with streak spam AND immobilize up close with hard hitting mines or way far away with rune cage AND steal all your kills in BGs AND complete Maelstrom with just one skill bar AND sustain forever AND heal to full underneath 50k shields with resto ult.
SUPERIOR Damage, Healing, Tankiness, Sustain, Mobility = Complete Class / FLAWLESS VICTORY
FINISH HIM
@DDuke
Can we balance all other CCs around Streak then? As in 1.5 second CC duration, moderate damage, roots the caster, teleports you behind the target where you have to turn around before you can attack again, doesn’t work if there is uneven terrain, has a cost increase, and is dodgeable?
@DDuke the way you calcul and evaluate sorc as having the best burst is totaly wrong, and you only bring misinformation with your bad number.
The real number in game make NB have better burst than sorc.
Try to use your brain for seeing how the reality is and not how you think things are.
If you don't find, I will bring you valuable and true, good number.