Soul Harvest will need an additional effect in order to compete with Incap following this bug fix

IAVITNI · February 2018

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

It's a true statement.

Believing in Santa with all my might won't make him anymore real.

Even if I could slot Incap on my stamsorc, I'd still use DBoS for the DoT in order to proc Implosion.

On my stamDK, sure it's more of a tossup, but I'd still prefer Leap or DBoS in open world since I can't reset fights in the way stamSorcs or Stamblades can.

In a 1v1, Incap is the strongest ultimate, but the assassin class should have an edge in 1v1 regardless. Again, the word to keep in mind is "situationally". Incap should be the benchmark class ultimate. DBoS, Incap, Northern Storm, Soul Assault (live) and to a lesser extent; Leap, Meteor, Soul Tether, Destro ultimate, Ballista etc, can completely change the flow of a fight if used correctly. This is what an ultimate should be doing. Majority of Ultimates are simply lacklustre as they are. Incap is fine, other class ultimates need a buff (looking at you templars xD)

Hollery wrote: »

I've rarely seen anyone other than a stamblade use DBoS. I like your suggestions to soul harvest but 15% decrease might be a bit to much there

Sorry I meant stamblade, not nightblades in general. DBoS wouldn't make sense on a magBlade since they don't have strong PvP AoE. It makes sense on a Magplar if you wan't to drop a field of potatos, but thats more about synergy than individual ultimate balance.

I agree that 15% maybe a bit too much, maybe more along the lines of 8%. Bias of a melee magblade

*Note-I don't main mag blade, I literally play all classes somewhat equally but I "main" sorc (mag and stam).

pieratsos wrote: »

So let me get this straight. You want a cheap high dmg spammable with a "viper on steroids" attached to it. And you also want a high dmg ult, that is so cheap to the point where u can use it every other rotation, applies major defile, gives you a 20% dmg buff, gives ult, gives you a speed buff and snare immunity for 5 seconds which means you will be prety much immune to snares all the time. And this is not overpowered according to you.

Wanna double the dmg of spectral bow too? Or maybe impale having execute dmg from 50% hp?

So do you think about what you read? Or do you simply nitpick points and pull them out of context to promote your own bias?

Hrmmm...a viper on steroids? Grab a napkin:

Viper-6400 tooltip
Surprise Attack-10,000 tooltip
Light attack(2h)-6000 tooltip (rounded up from UESP value of 5 pc Hunding, 2 selene, 3 agility)
______________________
Total Damage-22,400
After Battle Spirit-11,200
w/o viper-8000

"viper on steroids"-3,000
Concealed weapon-10,000
Light Attack (DW)/(Fire Destro)-1.5k/6k (same as 2h, but with julianos/agility/grothdar)
______________________
Total Damage-14,500/19,000
After Battle Spirit-7,250/9,500

As you can see, the whole point of the "viper of steroids" is to make up for the lack of LA weave damage that melee magblades tend to lose out on. On top of that, melee magblades need to be in melee range

which often requires dodge rolling, especially vs a magplar/magdk which means they need to invest more into stamina losing out on something else, usually damage. So realistically, the concealed weapon tooltip should be somewhat lower than surprise attack. ON TOP of that the "viper on steroids" would only proc after the initial weave, meaning even without viper, a stamblade is still more likely to output more damage.

The combination does output more damage with a fire staff, but again, it requires melee combat which a mag blade would have to build for (i.e. less damage=lower tooltips) and it removes the benefit of ranged combat from using a destro staff. Destro light attacks also tend to have lower damage than 2h because they are meant to be used from range. Check UESP with a blank build. It's around 127 for a fire destro vs 170 for a 2H

In regards to the ultimate, I agree that the snare immunity could be over the top. It definitely wouldn't be 100% uptime. The snare immunity could be reduced to 2.5 seconds, but then I really see no point in slotting Soul Harvest over Incap if that were the case.

And LOL at the QQ for the movement speed. It's literally build into the magblade kit regardless, it's just on a different skill now.

Honestly, listing the effects of an ability is a poor argument. You need to give it context. Take Frags for example. It used to be really strong in the magsorc rotation, but do you really think a stamplar or stamblade would use it over their spammable (assuming frag scaled off stam/WD)? Most likely no because it doesn't work with the kit. It's reasonable to overload certain skills if it suits the class identity. I suggested an ultimate that really does nothing besides give the class more breathing room in a MELEE combat situation, which puts the class at an automatic disadvantage as building tanky does not offer the same benefits for magblades as it does for magDKs/magplars.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · February 2018

IAVITNI wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

It's a true statement.

Believing in Santa with all my might won't make him anymore real.

I basically copied the tool tip from wiki, which is a true statement. Then I essentially said show me a better ultimate. Never said anything false, but keep doing your thing bud.

IAVITNI · February 2018

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

It's a true statement.

Believing in Santa with all my might won't make him anymore real.

I basically copied the tool tip from wiki, which is a true statement. Then I essentially said show me a better ultimate. Never said anything false, but keep doing your thing bud.

lol if you want to argue semantics go take a writing class. My whole point was that different ultimates are still perfectly viable and competitive under different situations. It's obvious what you were trying to imply. But go ahead, live in denial. Maybe Santa will nerf Incap for you if you're a true Belieber.

Kilandros · February 2018

DDuke wrote: »

@BohnT

You know, next patch everyone will have an "Incap" with the Off Balance stun, the stun will just come from the medium weave in the rotation rather than the ultimate.

In terms of damage, it's actually fairly balanced for its cost (if not slightly underperforming), Incap has one of the lowest ultimate tooltips in the game for a single target ultimate.

2H Ulti deals between 20-50% more damage, Leap & Warden bear deal around 25%~ more damage etc

Incap underperforming? That explains why no one uses it.

Seriously though. Did you just lament that incap does "20-50%" less damage than 2H Ult which costs twice as much as Incap? And doesn't apply Major Defile? And doesn't increase your damage against that target by 20% for 6 seconds? And doesn't stun?

Clearly underperforming.

Subversus · February 2018

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@BohnT

You know, next patch everyone will have an "Incap" with the Off Balance stun, the stun will just come from the medium weave in the rotation rather than the ultimate.

In terms of damage, it's actually fairly balanced for its cost (if not slightly underperforming), Incap has one of the lowest ultimate tooltips in the game for a single target ultimate.

2H Ulti deals between 20-50% more damage, Leap & Warden bear deal around 25%~ more damage etc

Incap underperforming? That explains why no one uses it.

Seriously though. Did you just lament that incap does "20-50%" less damage than 2H Ult which costs twice as much as Incap? And doesn't apply Major Defile? And doesn't increase your damage against that target by 20% for 6 seconds? And doesn't stun?

Clearly underperforming.

And doesn't ignore all resistances with a crazy high tooltip? And doesn't make you an immortal god for like 8 seconds? And doesn't still have a relatively low cost? And doesn't have any abilities that can actually be purged or rolldodge away from? I can't believe you're even doing this lol you're literally easy bait.

Go back to dk pls

Kilandros · February 2018

Subversus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@BohnT

You know, next patch everyone will have an "Incap" with the Off Balance stun, the stun will just come from the medium weave in the rotation rather than the ultimate.

In terms of damage, it's actually fairly balanced for its cost (if not slightly underperforming), Incap has one of the lowest ultimate tooltips in the game for a single target ultimate.

2H Ulti deals between 20-50% more damage, Leap & Warden bear deal around 25%~ more damage etc

Incap underperforming? That explains why no one uses it.

Seriously though. Did you just lament that incap does "20-50%" less damage than 2H Ult which costs twice as much as Incap? And doesn't apply Major Defile? And doesn't increase your damage against that target by 20% for 6 seconds? And doesn't stun?

Clearly underperforming.

And doesn't ignore all resistances with a crazy high tooltip? And doesn't make you an immortal god for like 8 seconds? And doesn't still have a relatively low cost? And doesn't have any abilities that can actually be purged or rolldodge away from? I can't believe you're even doing this lol you're literally easy bait.

Go back to dk pls

Ah so that explains why no one uses 2H ult then. Clearly it's just too OP for anyone to actually use. Clearly.

Subversus · February 2018

Kilandros wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@BohnT

You know, next patch everyone will have an "Incap" with the Off Balance stun, the stun will just come from the medium weave in the rotation rather than the ultimate.

In terms of damage, it's actually fairly balanced for its cost (if not slightly underperforming), Incap has one of the lowest ultimate tooltips in the game for a single target ultimate.

2H Ulti deals between 20-50% more damage, Leap & Warden bear deal around 25%~ more damage etc

Incap underperforming? That explains why no one uses it.

Seriously though. Did you just lament that incap does "20-50%" less damage than 2H Ult which costs twice as much as Incap? And doesn't apply Major Defile? And doesn't increase your damage against that target by 20% for 6 seconds? And doesn't stun?

Clearly underperforming.

And doesn't ignore all resistances with a crazy high tooltip? And doesn't make you an immortal god for like 8 seconds? And doesn't still have a relatively low cost? And doesn't have any abilities that can actually be purged or rolldodge away from? I can't believe you're even doing this lol you're literally easy bait.

Go back to dk pls

Ah so that explains why no one uses 2H ult then. Clearly it's just too OP for anyone to actually use. Clearly.

Of course incap is better, but that doesn't shut down the ult completely. Incap is a class ultimate, it's supposed to be unique for the class it's being played on. 2h ult is still a viable option for other classes. They way you put it is as if incap would be the be all end all ultimate in this game.

I'd gladly take magicka leap over incap any day of the week. Just saying

Kilandros · February 2018

Subversus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@BohnT

You know, next patch everyone will have an "Incap" with the Off Balance stun, the stun will just come from the medium weave in the rotation rather than the ultimate.

In terms of damage, it's actually fairly balanced for its cost (if not slightly underperforming), Incap has one of the lowest ultimate tooltips in the game for a single target ultimate.

2H Ulti deals between 20-50% more damage, Leap & Warden bear deal around 25%~ more damage etc

Incap underperforming? That explains why no one uses it.

Seriously though. Did you just lament that incap does "20-50%" less damage than 2H Ult which costs twice as much as Incap? And doesn't apply Major Defile? And doesn't increase your damage against that target by 20% for 6 seconds? And doesn't stun?

Clearly underperforming.

And doesn't ignore all resistances with a crazy high tooltip? And doesn't make you an immortal god for like 8 seconds? And doesn't still have a relatively low cost? And doesn't have any abilities that can actually be purged or rolldodge away from? I can't believe you're even doing this lol you're literally easy bait.

Go back to dk pls

Ah so that explains why no one uses 2H ult then. Clearly it's just too OP for anyone to actually use. Clearly.

Of course incap is better, but that doesn't shut down the ult completely. Incap is a class ultimate, it's supposed to be unique for the class it's being played on. 2h ult is still a viable option for other classes. They way you put it is as if incap would be the be all end all ultimate in this game.

I'd gladly take magicka leap over incap any day of the week. Just saying

So you would agree that Incap is NOT underperforming compared to 2H. Thanks. Glad we were able to clear that up!

pieratsos · February 2018

IAVITNI wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

It's a true statement.

Believing in Santa with all my might won't make him anymore real.

Even if I could slot Incap on my stamsorc, I'd still use DBoS for the DoT in order to proc Implosion.

On my stamDK, sure it's more of a tossup, but I'd still prefer Leap or DBoS in open world since I can't reset fights in the way stamSorcs or Stamblades can.

In a 1v1, Incap is the strongest ultimate, but the assassin class should have an edge in 1v1 regardless. Again, the word to keep in mind is "situationally". Incap should be the benchmark class ultimate. DBoS, Incap, Northern Storm, Soul Assault (live) and to a lesser extent; Leap, Meteor, Soul Tether, Destro ultimate, Ballista etc, can completely change the flow of a fight if used correctly. This is what an ultimate should be doing. Majority of Ultimates are simply lacklustre as they are. Incap is fine, other class ultimates need a buff (looking at you templars xD)

Hollery wrote: »

I've rarely seen anyone other than a stamblade use DBoS. I like your suggestions to soul harvest but 15% decrease might be a bit to much there

Sorry I meant stamblade, not nightblades in general. DBoS wouldn't make sense on a magBlade since they don't have strong PvP AoE. It makes sense on a Magplar if you wan't to drop a field of potatos, but thats more about synergy than individual ultimate balance.

I agree that 15% maybe a bit too much, maybe more along the lines of 8%. Bias of a melee magblade *Note-I don't main mag blade, I literally play all classes somewhat equally but I "main" sorc (mag and stam).

pieratsos wrote: »

So let me get this straight. You want a cheap high dmg spammable with a "viper on steroids" attached to it. And you also want a high dmg ult, that is so cheap to the point where u can use it every other rotation, applies major defile, gives you a 20% dmg buff, gives ult, gives you a speed buff and snare immunity for 5 seconds which means you will be prety much immune to snares all the time. And this is not overpowered according to you.

Wanna double the dmg of spectral bow too? Or maybe impale having execute dmg from 50% hp?

So do you think about what you read? Or do you simply nitpick points and pull them out of context to promote your own bias?

Hrmmm...a viper on steroids? Grab a napkin:

Viper-6400 tooltip
Surprise Attack-10,000 tooltip
Light attack(2h)-6000 tooltip (rounded up from UESP value of 5 pc Hunding, 2 selene, 3 agility)
______________________
Total Damage-22,400
After Battle Spirit-11,200
w/o viper-8000

"viper on steroids"-3,000
Concealed weapon-10,000
Light Attack (DW)/(Fire Destro)-1.5k/6k (same as 2h, but with julianos/agility/grothdar)
______________________
Total Damage-14,500/19,000
After Battle Spirit-7,250/9,500

As you can see, the whole point of the "viper of steroids" is to make up for the lack of LA weave damage that melee magblades tend to lose out on. On top of that, melee magblades need to be in melee range which often requires dodge rolling, especially vs a magplar/magdk which means they need to invest more into stamina losing out on something else, usually damage. So realistically, the concealed weapon tooltip should be somewhat lower than surprise attack. ON TOP of that the "viper on steroids" would only proc after the initial weave, meaning even without viper, a stamblade is still more likely to output more damage.

The combination does output more damage with a fire staff, but again, it requires melee combat which a mag blade would have to build for (i.e. less damage=lower tooltips) and it removes the benefit of ranged combat from using a destro staff. Destro light attacks also tend to have lower damage than 2h because they are meant to be used from range. Check UESP with a blank build. It's around 127 for a fire destro vs 170 for a 2H

In regards to the ultimate, I agree that the snare immunity could be over the top. It definitely wouldn't be 100% uptime. The snare immunity could be reduced to 2.5 seconds, but then I really see no point in slotting Soul Harvest over Incap if that were the case.

And LOL at the QQ for the movement speed. It's literally build into the magblade kit regardless, it's just on a different skill now.

Honestly, listing the effects of an ability is a poor argument. You need to give it context. Take Frags for example. It used to be really strong in the magsorc rotation, but do you really think a stamplar or stamblade would use it over their spammable (assuming frag scaled off stam/WD)? Most likely no because it doesn't work with the kit. It's reasonable to overload certain skills if it suits the class identity. I suggested an ultimate that really does nothing besides give the class more breathing room in a MELEE combat situation, which puts the class at an automatic disadvantage as building tanky does not offer the same benefits for magblades as it does for magDKs/magplars.

That bs you suggested can proc every second. Its unavoidable dmg every second, in other words "viper on steroids".
Frag is not a spammable. They would absolutely use it in combination with their spammables. Sorcs dont use frag as a spammable either. In fact, frags would probably be stronger on other classes. So wtf are you even talking about.

Honestly listing the effects of an ability is not a poor argument. Especially when that ability is an ultimate so cheap to the point of almost being used as a spammable and has a million different effects attached to it.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · February 2018

IAVITNI wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

It's a true statement.

Believing in Santa with all my might won't make him anymore real.

I basically copied the tool tip from wiki, which is a true statement. Then I essentially said show me a better ultimate. Never said anything false, but keep doing your thing bud.

lol if you want to argue semantics go take a writing class. My whole point was that different ultimates are still perfectly viable and competitive under different situations. It's obvious what you were trying to imply. But go ahead, live in denial. Maybe Santa will nerf Incap for you if you're a true Belieber.

I implied that it's the best ultimate in the game. Let me rephrase. It's the best single target ultimate in the game. Its arguably the best 1vX ultimate in the game. I don't PVE, but aren't stamblades running incap to proc master architect, allowing for very high PVE DPS numbers? Those points make it arguably the best ultimate in the game.

It provides a major buff and 1 major debuff. It provides solid damage while cc'ing. All this while only costs 75 ultimate.

If you want to complain about something, complain about cloak and shades not working properly. Don't complain about an obviously overtuned ultimate.

In the wise words of T.O., kick rocks.

Edit: War machine not master architect. Like I said, I don't PVE.

NyassaV · February 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

I mean incap provides a 20% self buff to damage, major defile, and cc's all while doing solid damage. If there are better ultimates, I'd like to see them.

If this was a true statement, then why would a night blade even bother equipping another ultimate let alone use it. Plenty of night blades backbar Dawnbreaker of Smiting and use it situationally. "Situationally" is the key word there.

Just because something is the best doesn't make it OP. The fact that most builds will slot DBoS over a class ultimate is much more telling than the fact that majority of stamblades slot incap.

On topic, Soul Harvest could use a lower cost to start off. I don't think an ultimate cost of 50 is overpowered.

As for secondary effects, move the 25% movement speed from concealed weapon onto it and have it grant snare immunity for 5 seconds after use. This would contrast nicely with incap. One provides offensive utility while the other provides defensive utility. When I play my magblade I seriously consider using a 2h just for momentum, so I'm sure other mag blades will appreciate the snare removal.

Then for concealed weapon, reduce the cost by about 15% and have it either, increase the effectiveness of weapon enchantments by 50% or place a debuff on the enemy that is consumed on LA/HA and deals ~3k magic damage.

I've rarely seen anyone other than a stamblade use DBoS. I like your suggestions to soul harvest but 15% decrease might be a bit to much there

so you haven't met a stamsorc, stamwarden and stamplar yet?
99% of the People using DboS are part of those specs and then there are .8% stamnbs and .2% magsorcs who want their old DboS back

We are talking about nightblade here

Derra · February 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Well, that "2nd ult" only really lands against pugs though

If you do not land your relentless you´re:
a) magica (because proccing the bow has a soundeffect the enemy can hear - for stamina it does not) and on top of that also has a more audible soundeffect (again based on the target) when fired aswell
b) too predictable in using it

After your first or 2nd will procc you usually know if your opponent prefers to dodge or block them which gives you the opportunity to adjust playstyle for that. You simply halt the procc 2 dodges or bash on their block - either way you´re trading very favorably as they won´t be able to keep up their counter pattern 3 or 4 proccs in.

I rarely miss my will proccs except against stamblades where it´s more often than not running out as those tend to dodge/cloak too much - this won´t be a problem anymore next patch as it won´t run out anymore. Win.

DDuke · February 2018

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well, that "2nd ult" only really lands against pugs though

If you do not land your relentless you´re:
a) magica (because proccing the bow has a soundeffect the enemy can hear - for stamina it does not) and on top of that also has a more audible soundeffect (again based on the target) when fired aswell
b) too predictable in using it

After your first or 2nd will procc you usually know if your opponent prefers to dodge or block them which gives you the opportunity to adjust playstyle for that. You simply halt the procc 2 dodges or bash on their block - either way you´re trading very favorably as they won´t be able to keep up their counter pattern 3 or 4 proccs in.

I rarely miss my will proccs except against stamblades where it´s more often than not running out as those tend to dodge/cloak too much - this won´t be a problem anymore next patch as it won´t run out anymore. Win.

I was referring to the Incap->Relentless (in that specific order) combo.

Any competent medium armor build will just CC Break, Vigor+dodge roll before the Relentless lands and basically reset the fight.
Other builds have ample time to shield/block before the proc lands.

I'm not saying the proc is bad or hard to land - just that particular combo.

BohnT · February 2018

Hollery wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

I mean incap provides a 20% self buff to damage, major defile, and cc's all while doing solid damage. If there are better ultimates, I'd like to see them.

If this was a true statement, then why would a night blade even bother equipping another ultimate let alone use it. Plenty of night blades backbar Dawnbreaker of Smiting and use it situationally. "Situationally" is the key word there.

Just because something is the best doesn't make it OP. The fact that most builds will slot DBoS over a class ultimate is much more telling than the fact that majority of stamblades slot incap.

On topic, Soul Harvest could use a lower cost to start off. I don't think an ultimate cost of 50 is overpowered.

As for secondary effects, move the 25% movement speed from concealed weapon onto it and have it grant snare immunity for 5 seconds after use. This would contrast nicely with incap. One provides offensive utility while the other provides defensive utility. When I play my magblade I seriously consider using a 2h just for momentum, so I'm sure other mag blades will appreciate the snare removal.

Then for concealed weapon, reduce the cost by about 15% and have it either, increase the effectiveness of weapon enchantments by 50% or place a debuff on the enemy that is consumed on LA/HA and deals ~3k magic damage.

I've rarely seen anyone other than a stamblade use DBoS. I like your suggestions to soul harvest but 15% decrease might be a bit to much there

so you haven't met a stamsorc, stamwarden and stamplar yet?
99% of the People using DboS are part of those specs and then there are .8% stamnbs and .2% magsorcs who want their old DboS back

We are talking about nightblade here

You were talking about not seeing anyone other using DBoS than stamblades.
You were the one bringing up wrong information.

BohnT · February 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well, that "2nd ult" only really lands against pugs though

If you do not land your relentless you´re:
a) magica (because proccing the bow has a soundeffect the enemy can hear - for stamina it does not) and on top of that also has a more audible soundeffect (again based on the target) when fired aswell
b) too predictable in using it

After your first or 2nd will procc you usually know if your opponent prefers to dodge or block them which gives you the opportunity to adjust playstyle for that. You simply halt the procc 2 dodges or bash on their block - either way you´re trading very favorably as they won´t be able to keep up their counter pattern 3 or 4 proccs in.

I rarely miss my will proccs except against stamblades where it´s more often than not running out as those tend to dodge/cloak too much - this won´t be a problem anymore next patch as it won´t run out anymore. Win.

I was referring to the Incap->Relentless (in that specific order) combo.

Any competent medium armor build will just CC Break, Vigor+dodge roll before the Relentless lands and basically reset the fight.
Other builds have ample time to shield/block before the proc lands.

I'm not saying the proc is bad or hard to land - just that particular combo.

If there would be those builds

The only class I'm having issues killing with incap + will is ironically stamnb. As @Derra said the others are easy to outplay when you can adapt to their playstyle.

Just a small side note:
My Deaths in PvP yesterday: 8
Deaths due to incap CC + follow-up: 6
Other deaths: 2 (shieldbreaker & AD Zerglings)

Atleast 60% of my deaths everyday are due to incap. It's not that I'm not being hit by Dawnbreakers, Leaps with their CC but the classes using it still can't kill me afterwards.

On Tuesday I played my stamnb with DBoS and then switched to Incap. My killing potential increased by atleast 40% and 1vX, 1v1 were much easier to win with incap.
1. It's ridiculous how many fights I win on stamnb with the bugged CC of Incap. About 3/5 Times i use it against an enemy in Cyrodiil and sometimes in Bergama they can't CC break and are doomed to die. But this is bug related.
2. When switching between Incap and Soul Harvest on my Magnb i noticed how many fights i can easily win due to the stun and that i often don't have to outplay my, enemies most of the time Incap into will is a guaranteed kill. With soul harvest you're better advised to go Soul Harvest-Fear-Will you can still kill people with ease but you see that the good players can start to counter your burst combo and fights are much more balanced and skill based than with incap.

My statement remains Soul Harvest is the morph that Incap should be balanced around not vice versa.
Meaning: Remove the CC of incap and add minor breach
to soul Harvest and minor fracture to Incap.

Derra · February 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well, that "2nd ult" only really lands against pugs though

If you do not land your relentless you´re:
a) magica (because proccing the bow has a soundeffect the enemy can hear - for stamina it does not) and on top of that also has a more audible soundeffect (again based on the target) when fired aswell
b) too predictable in using it

After your first or 2nd will procc you usually know if your opponent prefers to dodge or block them which gives you the opportunity to adjust playstyle for that. You simply halt the procc 2 dodges or bash on their block - either way you´re trading very favorably as they won´t be able to keep up their counter pattern 3 or 4 proccs in.

I rarely miss my will proccs except against stamblades where it´s more often than not running out as those tend to dodge/cloak too much - this won´t be a problem anymore next patch as it won´t run out anymore. Win.

I was referring to the Incap->Relentless (in that specific order) combo.

Any competent medium armor build will just CC Break, Vigor+dodge roll before the Relentless lands and basically reset the fight.
Other builds have ample time to shield/block before the proc lands.

I'm not saying the proc is bad or hard to land - just that particular combo.

It´s still kinda hard to break + dodge in time. I´m hitting even medium armor builds if i manage to stun them in melee range and i stand on top of them.
It requires point blank melee though. as soon as there is traveltime involved you´re right - which brings you back to medium armor builds as those tend to be the hardest to stay right on top of.

DDuke · February 2018

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well, that "2nd ult" only really lands against pugs though

If you do not land your relentless you´re:
a) magica (because proccing the bow has a soundeffect the enemy can hear - for stamina it does not) and on top of that also has a more audible soundeffect (again based on the target) when fired aswell
b) too predictable in using it

After your first or 2nd will procc you usually know if your opponent prefers to dodge or block them which gives you the opportunity to adjust playstyle for that. You simply halt the procc 2 dodges or bash on their block - either way you´re trading very favorably as they won´t be able to keep up their counter pattern 3 or 4 proccs in.

I rarely miss my will proccs except against stamblades where it´s more often than not running out as those tend to dodge/cloak too much - this won´t be a problem anymore next patch as it won´t run out anymore. Win.

I was referring to the Incap->Relentless (in that specific order) combo.

Any competent medium armor build will just CC Break, Vigor+dodge roll before the Relentless lands and basically reset the fight.
Other builds have ample time to shield/block before the proc lands.

I'm not saying the proc is bad or hard to land - just that particular combo.

It´s still kinda hard to break + dodge in time. I´m hitting even medium armor builds if i manage to stun them in melee range and i stand on top of them.
It requires point blank melee though. as soon as there is traveltime involved you´re right - which brings you back to medium armor builds as those tend to be the hardest to stay right on top of.

Nah, it's not. There's the GCD & then there's a 0,7s delay before Assassin's Will hits target (in melee range), it's literally the slowest instant cast ability in the game. If you can dodge/block/shield even Surprise Attack/Rev Slice after CC, you definitely can and should do that to Assassin's Will as well.

In any case, there's no point in even using that combo - you get more burst from Relentless (should drop target to 60-70%~)->Incap->Rev Slice, which is still not enough to 100->0 people with proper health pool/CPs/impen.

kookster · February 2018

I dont play magNB, but what if they made Soul Harvest ranged? Would that be a big enough buff to consider using it?

Subversus · February 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well, that "2nd ult" only really lands against pugs though

If you do not land your relentless you´re:
a) magica (because proccing the bow has a soundeffect the enemy can hear - for stamina it does not) and on top of that also has a more audible soundeffect (again based on the target) when fired aswell
b) too predictable in using it

After your first or 2nd will procc you usually know if your opponent prefers to dodge or block them which gives you the opportunity to adjust playstyle for that. You simply halt the procc 2 dodges or bash on their block - either way you´re trading very favorably as they won´t be able to keep up their counter pattern 3 or 4 proccs in.

I rarely miss my will proccs except against stamblades where it´s more often than not running out as those tend to dodge/cloak too much - this won´t be a problem anymore next patch as it won´t run out anymore. Win.

I was referring to the Incap->Relentless (in that specific order) combo.

Any competent medium armor build will just CC Break, Vigor+dodge roll before the Relentless lands and basically reset the fight.
Other builds have ample time to shield/block before the proc lands.

I'm not saying the proc is bad or hard to land - just that particular combo.

Can you actually fit in a vigor between the cc break and rolldodge between incap and merciless combos? I didn't know that lol, been so long since I had a decent ping

kookster wrote: »

I dont play magNB, but what if they made Soul Harvest ranged? Would that be a big enough buff to consider using it?

That would be a crazy buff hahaha, would even go as far as to call it op.

NightbladeMechanics · February 2018

Subversus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well, that "2nd ult" only really lands against pugs though

If you do not land your relentless you´re:
a) magica (because proccing the bow has a soundeffect the enemy can hear - for stamina it does not) and on top of that also has a more audible soundeffect (again based on the target) when fired aswell
b) too predictable in using it

After your first or 2nd will procc you usually know if your opponent prefers to dodge or block them which gives you the opportunity to adjust playstyle for that. You simply halt the procc 2 dodges or bash on their block - either way you´re trading very favorably as they won´t be able to keep up their counter pattern 3 or 4 proccs in.

I rarely miss my will proccs except against stamblades where it´s more often than not running out as those tend to dodge/cloak too much - this won´t be a problem anymore next patch as it won´t run out anymore. Win.

I was referring to the Incap->Relentless (in that specific order) combo.

Any competent medium armor build will just CC Break, Vigor+dodge roll before the Relentless lands and basically reset the fight.
Other builds have ample time to shield/block before the proc lands.

I'm not saying the proc is bad or hard to land - just that particular combo.

Can you actually fit in a vigor between the cc break and rolldodge between incap and merciless combos? I didn't know that lol, been so long since I had a decent ping

kookster wrote: »

I dont play magNB, but what if they made Soul Harvest ranged? Would that be a big enough buff to consider using it?

That would be a crazy buff hahaha, would even go as far as to call it op.

You can only fit a vigor in when they cc you and fire from range, so not Incap > will combos.

Ranged soul harvest would be op unless you added a delay to it or some other negative factor. What if casting harvest placed a shade next to the target enemy up to 28 meters away which attacked the enemy after a .5s delay, and then you could reactivate the ult for a while to port to that shade, just like shadow image? The tricks you could pull with something like that.. lol

Could even make it ground targeted, and attack the first enemy to come within melee range of it after being placed. Fearing or flame reaching people into range of it would be cool, or it could be placed in chokes or escape routes.

Subversus · February 2018

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well, that "2nd ult" only really lands against pugs though

If you do not land your relentless you´re:
a) magica (because proccing the bow has a soundeffect the enemy can hear - for stamina it does not) and on top of that also has a more audible soundeffect (again based on the target) when fired aswell
b) too predictable in using it

After your first or 2nd will procc you usually know if your opponent prefers to dodge or block them which gives you the opportunity to adjust playstyle for that. You simply halt the procc 2 dodges or bash on their block - either way you´re trading very favorably as they won´t be able to keep up their counter pattern 3 or 4 proccs in.

I rarely miss my will proccs except against stamblades where it´s more often than not running out as those tend to dodge/cloak too much - this won´t be a problem anymore next patch as it won´t run out anymore. Win.

I was referring to the Incap->Relentless (in that specific order) combo.

Any competent medium armor build will just CC Break, Vigor+dodge roll before the Relentless lands and basically reset the fight.
Other builds have ample time to shield/block before the proc lands.

I'm not saying the proc is bad or hard to land - just that particular combo.

Can you actually fit in a vigor between the cc break and rolldodge between incap and merciless combos? I didn't know that lol, been so long since I had a decent ping

kookster wrote: »

I dont play magNB, but what if they made Soul Harvest ranged? Would that be a big enough buff to consider using it?

That would be a crazy buff hahaha, would even go as far as to call it op.

You can only fit a vigor in when they cc you and fire from range, so not Incap > will combos.

Ranged soul harvest would be op unless you added a delay to it or some other negative factor. What if casting harvest placed a shade next to the target enemy up to 28 meters away which attacked the enemy after a .5s delay, and then you could reactivate the ult for a while to port to that shade, just like shadow image? The tricks you could pull with something like that.. lol

Could even make it ground targeted, and attack the first enemy to come within melee range of it after being placed. Fearing or flame reaching people into range of it would be cool, or it could be placed in chokes or escape routes.

Double shade sounds super fun, and seems like it fits a class that's supposed to be a "master of illusion". I can only imagine the poor melee opponents that would face such a build, I doubt they'd ever reach us.

JobooAGS · February 2018

BohnT wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well, that "2nd ult" only really lands against pugs though

If you do not land your relentless you´re:
a) magica (because proccing the bow has a soundeffect the enemy can hear - for stamina it does not) and on top of that also has a more audible soundeffect (again based on the target) when fired aswell
b) too predictable in using it

After your first or 2nd will procc you usually know if your opponent prefers to dodge or block them which gives you the opportunity to adjust playstyle for that. You simply halt the procc 2 dodges or bash on their block - either way you´re trading very favorably as they won´t be able to keep up their counter pattern 3 or 4 proccs in.

I rarely miss my will proccs except against stamblades where it´s more often than not running out as those tend to dodge/cloak too much - this won´t be a problem anymore next patch as it won´t run out anymore. Win.

I was referring to the Incap->Relentless (in that specific order) combo.

Any competent medium armor build will just CC Break, Vigor+dodge roll before the Relentless lands and basically reset the fight.
Other builds have ample time to shield/block before the proc lands.

I'm not saying the proc is bad or hard to land - just that particular combo.

If there would be those builds
The only class I'm having issues killing with incap + will is ironically stamnb. As @Derra said the others are easy to outplay when you can adapt to their playstyle.

Just a small side note:
My Deaths in PvP yesterday: 8
Deaths due to incap CC + follow-up: 6
Other deaths: 2 (shieldbreaker & AD Zerglings)

Atleast 60% of my deaths everyday are due to incap. It's not that I'm not being hit by Dawnbreakers, Leaps with their CC but the classes using it still can't kill me afterwards.

On Tuesday I played my stamnb with DBoS and then switched to Incap. My killing potential increased by atleast 40% and 1vX, 1v1 were much easier to win with incap.
1. It's ridiculous how many fights I win on stamnb with the bugged CC of Incap. About 3/5 Times i use it against an enemy in Cyrodiil and sometimes in Bergama they can't CC break and are doomed to die. But this is bug related.
2. When switching between Incap and Soul Harvest on my Magnb i noticed how many fights i can easily win due to the stun and that i often don't have to outplay my, enemies most of the time Incap into will is a guaranteed kill. With soul harvest you're better advised to go Soul Harvest-Fear-Will you can still kill people with ease but you see that the good players can start to counter your burst combo and fights are much more balanced and skill based than with incap.

My statement remains Soul Harvest is the morph that Incap should be balanced around not vice versa.
Meaning: Remove the CC of incap and add minor breach
to soul Harvest and minor fracture to Incap.

Doing that would make stamplars redundant in pve, and you know how bad templar dds are already. Better to increase the damage bonus on incap or bring back the old incap when you stun when your %hp is lower than your opponents

DDuke · February 2018

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well, that "2nd ult" only really lands against pugs though

If you do not land your relentless you´re:
a) magica (because proccing the bow has a soundeffect the enemy can hear - for stamina it does not) and on top of that also has a more audible soundeffect (again based on the target) when fired aswell
b) too predictable in using it

After your first or 2nd will procc you usually know if your opponent prefers to dodge or block them which gives you the opportunity to adjust playstyle for that. You simply halt the procc 2 dodges or bash on their block - either way you´re trading very favorably as they won´t be able to keep up their counter pattern 3 or 4 proccs in.

I rarely miss my will proccs except against stamblades where it´s more often than not running out as those tend to dodge/cloak too much - this won´t be a problem anymore next patch as it won´t run out anymore. Win.

I was referring to the Incap->Relentless (in that specific order) combo.

Any competent medium armor build will just CC Break, Vigor+dodge roll before the Relentless lands and basically reset the fight.
Other builds have ample time to shield/block before the proc lands.

I'm not saying the proc is bad or hard to land - just that particular combo.

Can you actually fit in a vigor between the cc break and rolldodge between incap and merciless combos? I didn't know that lol, been so long since I had a decent ping

kookster wrote: »

I dont play magNB, but what if they made Soul Harvest ranged? Would that be a big enough buff to consider using it?

That would be a crazy buff hahaha, would even go as far as to call it op.

You can only fit a vigor in when they cc you and fire from range, so not Incap > will combos.

There's time for a Vigor roll vs Incap->Relentless (delays dodge roll only by around 200-300ms) if you have low latency & quick reaction speed, but it's kinda rare situation where you can risk it. If that Incap takes you below 50% & your opponent uses Rev Slice after Incap instead of Assassin's Will it's no bueno...

Kilandros · February 2018

Give Soul Harvest a small 5m splash-damage AoE so that nearby targets take 25-50% of the damage done to the initial target and the ability can stay undodgeable.

NyassaV · February 2018

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well, that "2nd ult" only really lands against pugs though

If you do not land your relentless you´re:
a) magica (because proccing the bow has a soundeffect the enemy can hear - for stamina it does not) and on top of that also has a more audible soundeffect (again based on the target) when fired aswell
b) too predictable in using it

After your first or 2nd will procc you usually know if your opponent prefers to dodge or block them which gives you the opportunity to adjust playstyle for that. You simply halt the procc 2 dodges or bash on their block - either way you´re trading very favorably as they won´t be able to keep up their counter pattern 3 or 4 proccs in.

I rarely miss my will proccs except against stamblades where it´s more often than not running out as those tend to dodge/cloak too much - this won´t be a problem anymore next patch as it won´t run out anymore. Win.

I was referring to the Incap->Relentless (in that specific order) combo.

Any competent medium armor build will just CC Break, Vigor+dodge roll before the Relentless lands and basically reset the fight.
Other builds have ample time to shield/block before the proc lands.

I'm not saying the proc is bad or hard to land - just that particular combo.

Can you actually fit in a vigor between the cc break and rolldodge between incap and merciless combos? I didn't know that lol, been so long since I had a decent ping

kookster wrote: »

I dont play magNB, but what if they made Soul Harvest ranged? Would that be a big enough buff to consider using it?

That would be a crazy buff hahaha, would even go as far as to call it op.

You can only fit a vigor in when they cc you and fire from range, so not Incap > will combos.

Ranged soul harvest would be op unless you added a delay to it or some other negative factor. What if casting harvest placed a shade next to the target enemy up to 28 meters away which attacked the enemy after a .5s delay, and then you could reactivate the ult for a while to port to that shade, just like shadow image? The tricks you could pull with something like that.. lol

Could even make it ground targeted, and attack the first enemy to come within melee range of it after being placed. Fearing or flame reaching people into range of it would be cool, or it could be placed in chokes or escape routes.

@ZOS_Wrobel do it for all the RPers that just joined the game, they will feel like they are awesome

IAVITNI · February 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

That bs you suggested can proc every second. Its unavoidable dmg every second, in other words "viper on steroids".
Frag is not a spammable. They would absolutely use it in combination with their spammables. Sorcs dont use frag as a spammable either. In fact, frags would probably be stronger on other classes. So wtf are you even talking about.

Honestly listing the effects of an ability is not a poor argument. Especially when that ability is an ultimate so cheap to the point of almost being used as a spammable and has a million different effects attached to it.

Again, did you even read the post? Or do you just pull points out of context to satisfy your own bias? Mathematically, my suggestion simply makes weaving on a melee magblade (dual wield) deal similar damage to a stam character or more if they use a destro staff but sacrifice the range advantage its supposed to give.

Let me ask you this, do you think that a skill that would allow melee light attack weaves from a magicka character to deal the same damage as a melee light attack from a stamina character or similar (slightly less) damage as a magicka character weaving destro light attacks is OP?

And frag is technically the sorcs spammable, as it is the only skill that can be spammed. (Fury counts as an execute). Dizzy Swing is considered the spammable for 2H and it's channeled too. The point is that Incap fits the stamblade kit and is considered "overpowered" only because other classes don't have offensive ultimates that are as complimentary. Closest thing is Leap but DKs are so poorly balanced right now that it's not fair to make a comparison to them.

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

I implied that it's the best ultimate in the game. Let me rephrase. It's the best single target ultimate in the game. Its arguably the best 1vX ultimate in the game. I don't PVE, but aren't stamblades running incap to proc master architect, allowing for very high PVE DPS numbers? Those points make it arguably the best ultimate in the game.

It provides a major buff and 1 major debuff. It provides solid damage while cc'ing. All this while only costs 75 ultimate.

If you want to complain about something, complain about cloak and shades not working properly. Don't complain about an obviously overtuned ultimate.

In the wise words of T.O., kick rocks.

Edit: War machine not master architect. Like I said, I don't PVE.

I never complained about incap, I just don't like when people exaggerate an issue to prove a bias and refuse to acknowledge their own hyperbole. Incap is admittedly overtuned but definitely not overpowered. Labeling it as overpowered has a different psychological effect, similar to the differences between telling a child they are smart versus hard working. Both imply that they will grow to become successful but one has a high chance to induce an irrational fear of failure resulting in a loss of identity whereas the other introduces the concept of failure into that childs identity but places emphasis on overcoming it. Phrasing is important.

Look at C-Frag. It was an overtuned skill, but not overpowered yet it was nerfed twice in succession resulting in open world Msorc dropping from arguably #1 top tier to lower-mid tier. It really only needed one of the changes (I personally support the CC removal as a Msorc main). The constant posts of an Overpowered skill got the skill over nerfed when in reality it only needed a slight tuning.

As for it being the best 1vX ultimate, again its really situational. I would still use DBoS with a stamSorc or a Stamplar. It suits their kit better. Incap is only "the best" 1vx ultimate because of night blades abilities to reset fights, turning a 1v8 into a bunch of 1v2s, which really ever since Morrowind all 1vxs are pretty much about isolation and LoS unless you run some form of tank cheese.

As per your mention of PvE, I don't PvE either. Never really hear my PvE friends asking for stamblades for runs so I think thats more of a niche situation, but again, no idea.

BohnT wrote: »

My statement remains Soul Harvest is the morph that Incap should be balanced around not vice versa.
Meaning: Remove the CC of incap and add minor breach
to soul Harvest and minor fracture to Incap.

I disagree, but from a philosophical point. Incap is the only ultimate (of my opponent) that I consciously play around, and imo this is the kind of effect ultimates should have. If an incap hits me I know I'm in trouble. If I expect a Leap, Meteor, I just
block or CC break and Vigor+Rally/shield stack and carry on if it actually lands. I hardly ever die from a burst using these ultimates unless I'm zerged down or its been a +5 minute 1v1. If I know the magblade I'm facing is using Soul Harvest, I don't feel pressured knowing they have the ultimate up, which imo isn't how it should be.Knowing my opponent has their ultimate up should naturally put me in a defensive-combat mind set instead of simply making me recast my vigor/shield

NyassaV · February 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

It's a true statement.

Believing in Santa with all my might won't make him anymore real.

Even if I could slot Incap on my stamsorc, I'd still use DBoS for the DoT in order to proc Implosion.

On my stamDK, sure it's more of a tossup, but I'd still prefer Leap or DBoS in open world since I can't reset fights in the way stamSorcs or Stamblades can.

In a 1v1, Incap is the strongest ultimate, but the assassin class should have an edge in 1v1 regardless. Again, the word to keep in mind is "situationally". Incap should be the benchmark class ultimate. DBoS, Incap, Northern Storm, Soul Assault (live) and to a lesser extent; Leap, Meteor, Soul Tether, Destro ultimate, Ballista etc, can completely change the flow of a fight if used correctly. This is what an ultimate should be doing. Majority of Ultimates are simply lacklustre as they are. Incap is fine, other class ultimates need a buff (looking at you templars xD)

Hollery wrote: »

I've rarely seen anyone other than a stamblade use DBoS. I like your suggestions to soul harvest but 15% decrease might be a bit to much there

Sorry I meant stamblade, not nightblades in general. DBoS wouldn't make sense on a magBlade since they don't have strong PvP AoE. It makes sense on a Magplar if you wan't to drop a field of potatos, but thats more about synergy than individual ultimate balance.

I agree that 15% maybe a bit too much, maybe more along the lines of 8%. Bias of a melee magblade *Note-I don't main mag blade, I literally play all classes somewhat equally but I "main" sorc (mag and stam).

pieratsos wrote: »

So let me get this straight. You want a cheap high dmg spammable with a "viper on steroids" attached to it. And you also want a high dmg ult, that is so cheap to the point where u can use it every other rotation, applies major defile, gives you a 20% dmg buff, gives ult, gives you a speed buff and snare immunity for 5 seconds which means you will be prety much immune to snares all the time. And this is not overpowered according to you.

Wanna double the dmg of spectral bow too? Or maybe impale having execute dmg from 50% hp?

So do you think about what you read? Or do you simply nitpick points and pull them out of context to promote your own bias?

Hrmmm...a viper on steroids? Grab a napkin:

Viper-6400 tooltip
Surprise Attack-10,000 tooltip
Light attack(2h)-6000 tooltip (rounded up from UESP value of 5 pc Hunding, 2 selene, 3 agility)
______________________
Total Damage-22,400
After Battle Spirit-11,200
w/o viper-8000

"viper on steroids"-3,000
Concealed weapon-10,000
Light Attack (DW)/(Fire Destro)-1.5k/6k (same as 2h, but with julianos/agility/grothdar)
______________________
Total Damage-14,500/19,000
After Battle Spirit-7,250/9,500

As you can see, the whole point of the "viper of steroids" is to make up for the lack of LA weave damage that melee magblades tend to lose out on. On top of that, melee magblades need to be in melee range which often requires dodge rolling, especially vs a magplar/magdk which means they need to invest more into stamina losing out on something else, usually damage. So realistically, the concealed weapon tooltip should be somewhat lower than surprise attack. ON TOP of that the "viper on steroids" would only proc after the initial weave, meaning even without viper, a stamblade is still more likely to output more damage.

The combination does output more damage with a fire staff, but again, it requires melee combat which a mag blade would have to build for (i.e. less damage=lower tooltips) and it removes the benefit of ranged combat from using a destro staff. Destro light attacks also tend to have lower damage than 2h because they are meant to be used from range. Check UESP with a blank build. It's around 127 for a fire destro vs 170 for a 2H

In regards to the ultimate, I agree that the snare immunity could be over the top. It definitely wouldn't be 100% uptime. The snare immunity could be reduced to 2.5 seconds, but then I really see no point in slotting Soul Harvest over Incap if that were the case.

And LOL at the QQ for the movement speed. It's literally build into the magblade kit regardless, it's just on a different skill now.

Honestly, listing the effects of an ability is a poor argument. You need to give it context. Take Frags for example. It used to be really strong in the magsorc rotation, but do you really think a stamplar or stamblade would use it over their spammable (assuming frag scaled off stam/WD)? Most likely no because it doesn't work with the kit. It's reasonable to overload certain skills if it suits the class identity. I suggested an ultimate that really does nothing besides give the class more breathing room in a MELEE combat situation, which puts the class at an automatic disadvantage as building tanky does not offer the same benefits for magblades as it does for magDKs/magplars.

That bs you suggested can proc every second. Its unavoidable dmg every second, in other words "viper on steroids".
Frag is not a spammable. They would absolutely use it in combination with their spammables. Sorcs dont use frag as a spammable either. In fact, frags would probably be stronger on other classes. So wtf are you even talking about.

Honestly listing the effects of an ability is not a poor argument. Especially when that ability is an ultimate so cheap to the point of almost being used as a spammable and has a million different effects attached to it.

-Frags is more of a spammable than Soul Harvest
-Overload is cheaper than Soul Harvest, is ranged, and literally is a spammable (A spammable is something that can be spammed provided you have enough resources for it. )

NightbladeMechanics · February 2018

Hollery wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well, that "2nd ult" only really lands against pugs though

If you do not land your relentless you´re:
a) magica (because proccing the bow has a soundeffect the enemy can hear - for stamina it does not) and on top of that also has a more audible soundeffect (again based on the target) when fired aswell
b) too predictable in using it

After your first or 2nd will procc you usually know if your opponent prefers to dodge or block them which gives you the opportunity to adjust playstyle for that. You simply halt the procc 2 dodges or bash on their block - either way you´re trading very favorably as they won´t be able to keep up their counter pattern 3 or 4 proccs in.

I rarely miss my will proccs except against stamblades where it´s more often than not running out as those tend to dodge/cloak too much - this won´t be a problem anymore next patch as it won´t run out anymore. Win.

I was referring to the Incap->Relentless (in that specific order) combo.

Any competent medium armor build will just CC Break, Vigor+dodge roll before the Relentless lands and basically reset the fight.
Other builds have ample time to shield/block before the proc lands.

I'm not saying the proc is bad or hard to land - just that particular combo.

Can you actually fit in a vigor between the cc break and rolldodge between incap and merciless combos? I didn't know that lol, been so long since I had a decent ping

kookster wrote: »

I dont play magNB, but what if they made Soul Harvest ranged? Would that be a big enough buff to consider using it?

That would be a crazy buff hahaha, would even go as far as to call it op.

You can only fit a vigor in when they cc you and fire from range, so not Incap > will combos.

Ranged soul harvest would be op unless you added a delay to it or some other negative factor. What if casting harvest placed a shade next to the target enemy up to 28 meters away which attacked the enemy after a .5s delay, and then you could reactivate the ult for a while to port to that shade, just like shadow image? The tricks you could pull with something like that.. lol

Could even make it ground targeted, and attack the first enemy to come within melee range of it after being placed. Fearing or flame reaching people into range of it would be cool, or it could be placed in chokes or escape routes.

@ZOS_Wrobel do it for all the RPers that just joined the game, they will feel like they are awesome

I could RP as Zed let's go

Subversus · February 2018

Kilandros wrote: »

Give Soul Harvest a small 5m splash-damage AoE so that nearby targets take 25-50% of the damage done to the initial target and the ability can stay undodgeable.

It would fit the magblade toolkit at least. Ambush already does that so it looks like a pattern. It seems too weak though, idk...

pieratsos · February 2018

IAVITNI wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

That bs you suggested can proc every second. Its unavoidable dmg every second, in other words "viper on steroids".
Frag is not a spammable. They would absolutely use it in combination with their spammables. Sorcs dont use frag as a spammable either. In fact, frags would probably be stronger on other classes. So wtf are you even talking about.

Honestly listing the effects of an ability is not a poor argument. Especially when that ability is an ultimate so cheap to the point of almost being used as a spammable and has a million different effects attached to it.

Again, did you even read the post? Or do you just pull points out of context to satisfy your own bias? Mathematically, my suggestion simply makes weaving on a melee magblade (dual wield) deal similar damage to a stam character or more if they use a destro staff but sacrifice the range advantage its supposed to give.

Let me ask you this, do you think that a skill that would allow melee light attack weaves from a magicka character to deal the same damage as a melee light attack from a stamina character or similar (slightly less) damage as a magicka character weaving destro light attacks is OP?

And frag is technically the sorcs spammable, as it is the only skill that can be spammed. (Fury counts as an execute). Dizzy Swing is considered the spammable for 2H and it's channeled too. The point is that Incap fits the stamblade kit and is considered "overpowered" only because other classes don't have offensive ultimates that are as complimentary. Closest thing is Leap but DKs are so poorly balanced right now that it's not fair to make a comparison to them.

I perfectly read ur post. There is no such thing as "mathematically this or that". Your suggestion is beyond stupid. Doesnt matter if it enables a melee magblade. A build that is already a thing and doesnt need ur dumb change to be viable. Its guaranteed unavoidable dmg every second. Its stupid. Whats next? Do the same for all classes so they are "on par" with stam builds? Or is this just about ur class?

And enough with this dumb offensive-defensive bs. Soul harvest is not a defensive ult. Its high dmg, major defile and dmg buff. Thats not defensive. Now you want it to be much cheaper but somehow this isnt an offensive buff and on top of it, you want it to give u snare immunity and speed buff. Anything else?

Incap isnt OP because other classes dont have incap. DBoS is one of the best ults in game and it compliments fine all the classes. Ask wardens, they'll tell you. And how does this thing about incap is even remotely related to the changes about soul harvest and how does it make them balanced.

Frag is not a sorc spammable. Period. Stop talking about things you have no idea about. Why the hell do you think sorcs use crushing shock/force pulse/master reach? Dizzying cant be interrupted, has a CC attached to it and can be used very well in combos. Its not even remotely close to frags. The fact that you even compare them makes me doubt if you ever played anything else except NB. I am playing sorc for years. To put it simple for you, anyone who is hardcasting frags and treats it as a spammable is automatically considered 1vX material and its the first one who dies. If you so much as try to hardcast frags against any decent player, they will bash ur head off and one shot you before you even realise what happened.

But yeah im biased. Lmao