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Soul Harvest will need an additional effect in order to compete with Incap following this bug fix

  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
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    waitwhat wrote: »
    Magblade is a ranged class.

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  • BohnT
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    @Derra as i played meele magnb for a long time now with DW. I can't say that snare immunity from FM is a must. Magnb works best in open world if your enemies can't attack you due to shadow image or cloak. In 1vX i often had 85% cloak uptime and i wasn't snared because no attacks hit me in their first place.

    I say meele magnb is perfectly fine the way it is as it offers a completely different playstyle but is still viable enough to win duel tournaments or perform great in 1vX.
  • Derra
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    BohnT wrote: »
    @Derra as i played meele magnb for a long time now with DW. I can't say that snare immunity from FM is a must. Magnb works best in open world if your enemies can't attack you due to shadow image or cloak. In 1vX i often had 85% cloak uptime and i wasn't snared because no attacks hit me in their first place.

    I say meele magnb is perfectly fine the way it is as it offers a completely different playstyle but is still viable enough to win duel tournaments or perform great in 1vX.

    Don´t you think the approach of "don´t get snared" is a little too optimistic in a game where the only class that does not have a snare is magsorc?

    I have seen 1 dw magblade in the last year - not hybrid with funnel/cripple on resto.
    Power to you if you also play that way.
    <Noricum>
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  • BohnT
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    Derra wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    @Derra as i played meele magnb for a long time now with DW. I can't say that snare immunity from FM is a must. Magnb works best in open world if your enemies can't attack you due to shadow image or cloak. In 1vX i often had 85% cloak uptime and i wasn't snared because no attacks hit me in their first place.

    I say meele magnb is perfectly fine the way it is as it offers a completely different playstyle but is still viable enough to win duel tournaments or perform great in 1vX.

    Don´t you think the approach of "don´t get snared" is a little too optimistic in a game where the only class that does not have a snare is magsorc?

    I have seen 1 dw magblade in the last year - not hybrid with funnel/cripple on resto.
    Power to you if you also play that way.

    The approach seems stupid yes but in practice i noticed that most players are either too slow to attack me fast enough so they don't hit me at all, or they use one maybe two skills with minor snares.
    If I ever came into the situation where the snares were too much i just used mistform + shade to avoid all other snares and purge the ones i already had on me.

    I use cripple on the resto bar as it helps with weaving and range cc.
    Funnel is nice for the extra healing and damage+ weave but I like entropy much more for the empower and major sorcery.
  • NightbladeMechanics
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    Derra wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    @Derra as i played meele magnb for a long time now with DW. I can't say that snare immunity from FM is a must. Magnb works best in open world if your enemies can't attack you due to shadow image or cloak. In 1vX i often had 85% cloak uptime and i wasn't snared because no attacks hit me in their first place.

    I say meele magnb is perfectly fine the way it is as it offers a completely different playstyle but is still viable enough to win duel tournaments or perform great in 1vX.

    Don´t you think the approach of "don´t get snared" is a little too optimistic in a game where the only class that does not have a snare is magsorc?

    I have seen 1 dw magblade in the last year - not hybrid with funnel/cripple on resto.
    Power to you if you also play that way.

    *raises hand*

    Does using Cripple disqualify a mageblade from being considered "melee?" :no_mouth: I use it on main bar instead of a gap closer, with no funnel on back bar.
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  • BohnT
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    Derra wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    @Derra as i played meele magnb for a long time now with DW. I can't say that snare immunity from FM is a must. Magnb works best in open world if your enemies can't attack you due to shadow image or cloak. In 1vX i often had 85% cloak uptime and i wasn't snared because no attacks hit me in their first place.

    I say meele magnb is perfectly fine the way it is as it offers a completely different playstyle but is still viable enough to win duel tournaments or perform great in 1vX.

    Don´t you think the approach of "don´t get snared" is a little too optimistic in a game where the only class that does not have a snare is magsorc?

    I have seen 1 dw magblade in the last year - not hybrid with funnel/cripple on resto.
    Power to you if you also play that way.

    *raises hand*

    Does using Cripple disqualify a mageblade from being considered "melee?" :no_mouth: I use it on main bar instead of a gap closer, with no funnel on back bar.

    I think Derra only ment using cripple on resto bar. Although i don't see it as a problem as it deals too low damage to stay at range and i often only use it to drain resources from my enemies and get fast to them without a gapcloser
  • Derra
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    BohnT wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    @Derra as i played meele magnb for a long time now with DW. I can't say that snare immunity from FM is a must. Magnb works best in open world if your enemies can't attack you due to shadow image or cloak. In 1vX i often had 85% cloak uptime and i wasn't snared because no attacks hit me in their first place.

    I say meele magnb is perfectly fine the way it is as it offers a completely different playstyle but is still viable enough to win duel tournaments or perform great in 1vX.

    Don´t you think the approach of "don´t get snared" is a little too optimistic in a game where the only class that does not have a snare is magsorc?

    I have seen 1 dw magblade in the last year - not hybrid with funnel/cripple on resto.
    Power to you if you also play that way.

    The approach seems stupid yes but in practice i noticed that most players are either too slow to attack me fast enough so they don't hit me at all, or they use one maybe two skills with minor snares.
    If I ever came into the situation where the snares were too much i just used mistform + shade to avoid all other snares and purge the ones i already had on me.

    I use cripple on the resto bar as it helps with weaving and range cc.
    Funnel is nice for the extra healing and damage+ weave but I like entropy much more for the empower and major sorcery.

    *shrug

    usually the first thing that happens when i play magblade is i get marked. no idea where or what ppl you´re fighting though :neutral:
    <Noricum>
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  • BohnT
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    Derra wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    @Derra as i played meele magnb for a long time now with DW. I can't say that snare immunity from FM is a must. Magnb works best in open world if your enemies can't attack you due to shadow image or cloak. In 1vX i often had 85% cloak uptime and i wasn't snared because no attacks hit me in their first place.

    I say meele magnb is perfectly fine the way it is as it offers a completely different playstyle but is still viable enough to win duel tournaments or perform great in 1vX.

    Don´t you think the approach of "don´t get snared" is a little too optimistic in a game where the only class that does not have a snare is magsorc?

    I have seen 1 dw magblade in the last year - not hybrid with funnel/cripple on resto.
    Power to you if you also play that way.

    The approach seems stupid yes but in practice i noticed that most players are either too slow to attack me fast enough so they don't hit me at all, or they use one maybe two skills with minor snares.
    If I ever came into the situation where the snares were too much i just used mistform + shade to avoid all other snares and purge the ones i already had on me.

    I use cripple on the resto bar as it helps with weaving and range cc.
    Funnel is nice for the extra healing and damage+ weave but I like entropy much more for the empower and major sorcery.

    *shrug

    usually the first thing that happens when i play magblade is i get marked. no idea where or what ppl you´re fighting though :neutral:

    I get marked aswell, there are 3 players who use Shieldreaker, magnb + mark and cost/ root poisons.
    One of them is running meridia now because i killed him so often :lol:

    Mark sucks but with a working shade i can get around it sometimes, also most nbs are stupid enough to forget to damage you after they marked you so their zerg still can't see you.

    I think mark should get changed along with so many other hard counters.
    The thing that wrecks me more often than mark is soultrap
  • DDuke
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    Derra wrote: »
    @DDuke it´s nice how you theorycraft about magblade melee - but don´t forget that one of the core features aiding to stamblades survivability is being able to chain dodgeroll with cloak while being able to remove snares.
    On magblade you´d have to run 2h to remove snares - which leaves you with about 25% of the lightattack dmg stamblades have - negating all possible dmg advantages (hint: there are none bc your anytimer does not provide major fracture).

    I don´t play too much stamblade - but i played and tested on magblade a lot.

    I don't know if being able to shuffle roll really helps that much, I've found that most of the time stamblade needs to do that, the stamblade also needs to Rally in order to even live. So you're stuck in melee range (probably holding block & losing all your stamina), snared to hell & wishing you had a Healing Ward.

    Shuffle roll->cloak is also easily countered by streak or gap closer->AoE (i.e. volatile or sweeps).


    Regarding damage, remember that most of those stamblades these days have <10k buffed Surprise Attack tooltip, where as my magblade on PTS has 14k on Concealed Weapon with buffs & a 23k tooltip proc set (don't ask me how :D ).
  • BohnT
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    @DDuke it´s nice how you theorycraft about magblade melee - but don´t forget that one of the core features aiding to stamblades survivability is being able to chain dodgeroll with cloak while being able to remove snares.
    On magblade you´d have to run 2h to remove snares - which leaves you with about 25% of the lightattack dmg stamblades have - negating all possible dmg advantages (hint: there are none bc your anytimer does not provide major fracture).

    I don´t play too much stamblade - but i played and tested on magblade a lot.

    I don't know if being able to shuffle roll really helps that much, I've found that most of the time stamblade needs to do that, the stamblade also needs to Rally in order to even live. So you're stuck in melee range (probably holding block & losing all your stamina), snared to hell & wishing you had a Healing Ward.

    Shuffle roll->cloak is also easily countered by streak or gap closer->AoE (i.e. volatile or sweeps).


    Regarding damage, remember that most of those stamblades these days have <10k buffed Surprise Attack tooltip, where as my magblade on PTS has 14k on Concealed Weapon with buffs & a 23k tooltip proc set (don't ask me how :D ).

    Don't forget that stamnb gets extra burst via heavy attacks. And i feel that stamnb still deals more burst and can finish people better off who survive the first burst but I'm not sure why
  • NyassaV
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    Lucky28 wrote: »
    Soul Harvest has an additional effect it builds ultimate and is fine as is. Even dodgeable without a stun it is very effective, it is not hard to use fear to land it. Stam morph is more beneficial for PVE and Mag morph is more beneficial for PVP, there is nothing wrong with that. Being able to be dodged isn't going to kill Soul Harvest.

    it's the other way around. incap is better for PvP Harvest is better for PvE and that's only because it builds ult it's not the ult itself.

    Correct, I accidentally swapped the PVE and PVP, but I think that was fairly obvious to everyone.

    Lucky28 wrote: »
    Harvest does need a buff if they're making it dodgeable. most magblades use incap over harvest as is before making it dodgeable. making it dodgeable will be very bad for Soul harvest.

    No it won't be very bad, that is unless you are a very bad player. It will marginally change the way you use it.

    It'll drag out fights even longer... I don't like 3 min duels I prefer 2 min ones
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  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    BohnT wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    @DDuke it´s nice how you theorycraft about magblade melee - but don´t forget that one of the core features aiding to stamblades survivability is being able to chain dodgeroll with cloak while being able to remove snares.
    On magblade you´d have to run 2h to remove snares - which leaves you with about 25% of the lightattack dmg stamblades have - negating all possible dmg advantages (hint: there are none bc your anytimer does not provide major fracture).

    I don´t play too much stamblade - but i played and tested on magblade a lot.

    I don't know if being able to shuffle roll really helps that much, I've found that most of the time stamblade needs to do that, the stamblade also needs to Rally in order to even live. So you're stuck in melee range (probably holding block & losing all your stamina), snared to hell & wishing you had a Healing Ward.

    Shuffle roll->cloak is also easily countered by streak or gap closer->AoE (i.e. volatile or sweeps).


    Regarding damage, remember that most of those stamblades these days have <10k buffed Surprise Attack tooltip, where as my magblade on PTS has 14k on Concealed Weapon with buffs & a 23k tooltip proc set (don't ask me how :D ).

    Don't forget that stamnb gets extra burst via heavy attacks. And i feel that stamnb still deals more burst and can finish people better off who survive the first burst but I'm not sure why

    Are you sure stamblade has more burst?

    PDAOlO6.png
  • BohnT
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    DDuke wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    @DDuke it´s nice how you theorycraft about magblade melee - but don´t forget that one of the core features aiding to stamblades survivability is being able to chain dodgeroll with cloak while being able to remove snares.
    On magblade you´d have to run 2h to remove snares - which leaves you with about 25% of the lightattack dmg stamblades have - negating all possible dmg advantages (hint: there are none bc your anytimer does not provide major fracture).

    I don´t play too much stamblade - but i played and tested on magblade a lot.

    I don't know if being able to shuffle roll really helps that much, I've found that most of the time stamblade needs to do that, the stamblade also needs to Rally in order to even live. So you're stuck in melee range (probably holding block & losing all your stamina), snared to hell & wishing you had a Healing Ward.

    Shuffle roll->cloak is also easily countered by streak or gap closer->AoE (i.e. volatile or sweeps).


    Regarding damage, remember that most of those stamblades these days have <10k buffed Surprise Attack tooltip, where as my magblade on PTS has 14k on Concealed Weapon with buffs & a 23k tooltip proc set (don't ask me how :D ).

    Don't forget that stamnb gets extra burst via heavy attacks. And i feel that stamnb still deals more burst and can finish people better off who survive the first burst but I'm not sure why

    Are you sure stamblade has more burst?

    PDAOlO6.png

    With selene yes :trollface:
  • Xvorg
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    Derra wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    @Derra as i played meele magnb for a long time now with DW. I can't say that snare immunity from FM is a must. Magnb works best in open world if your enemies can't attack you due to shadow image or cloak. In 1vX i often had 85% cloak uptime and i wasn't snared because no attacks hit me in their first place.

    I say meele magnb is perfectly fine the way it is as it offers a completely different playstyle but is still viable enough to win duel tournaments or perform great in 1vX.

    Don´t you think the approach of "don´t get snared" is a little too optimistic in a game where the only class that does not have a snare is magsorc?

    I have seen 1 dw magblade in the last year - not hybrid with funnel/cripple on resto.
    Power to you if you also play that way.

    *raises hand*

    Does using Cripple disqualify a mageblade from being considered "melee?" :no_mouth: I use it on main bar instead of a gap closer, with no funnel on back bar.

    No, why?

    Though, I think that mageblade tends more toward a hybrid style (Full heavy, destro reach, lotus, CW)
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

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  • Xvorg
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    BohnT wrote: »
    Koolio wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    Izaki wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    None of the death stroke morphs need a buff, incap needs it's stun removed.
    Incap is completely overperfoming and arguably the best single target ult in the game, as you said the cc combined with high damage, 20% damage increase and major defile + passives.
    On top the stun on incap is broken like many others but incap is the one you can't break free of the most.
    I play both stamnb and meele magnb and ofc I'm using incap on both of them. When i count the times an enemy couldn't break free from my incap I always get to ~66% of the times when I'm using incap. People get pinned on the floor and can't react "fast" enough to break free and defend themselves (i mean 2 gcd most of the time). With how much damage the first burst does and how fast nbs can dish out more damage 90% of all builds are dead because of the bugged stun.
    This has to end even without the stun incap and nbs are still one of the most powerful classes in the game and are nowhere near "dead" if people start bringing up that reaction

    Just fix the stun then? You're describing a bug and using it as a reason for a nerf.

    Although, I would definitely get behind removing the stun and increasing the empower to 8 seconds for example. Would really help Stamblade in PvE.

    No even with a fixed stun incap is too powerful. I wrote it down in another post about incap why a stun on a high damage ability is a stupid idea.
    Stamnb doesn't need more buffs not a single bit, at least not in pvp. PvE is a completely different story but an increase to the bursty nature of stamnb isn't something this game needs, a way of more sustained damage would be fine

    Its not an ability it’s an ULTIMATE. Like to compete with meteor the 20k + AOE tooltip AOE stun with a DOT with it that generates more Ultimate than Soul Harvest with Range. Of course it costs more but with all that extra for a little more than double the cost (on Sorc)

    What we are talking about is having something else added to Soul harvest on a melee MNB/Ranged MNB to compete with incap which got soul harvest nerfed a few times already. No point to slot this over incap in pvp anymore to fight with.

    It’s ok I’ll just continue to Soul assault people from stealth until I can get a working shadow image Siphoning strikes and healing ward again.

    If you think that meteor is the better ult then ask yourself one question, why do people don't use meteor on their nbs maybe because 20% damage taken and major defile is much better than a crappy ground dot?

    People do, though. Meteor+Fear+Merciless has been a common magic NB combo since launch

    Just to point out that Merciless Ressolve didn't exist at lanuch and it just replaced Haste
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

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  • Xvorg
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    waitwhat wrote: »
    Koolio wrote: »
    waitwhat wrote: »
    How about remove things from incap to bring it line with Soul?

    Bum bum bum!

    Comparing Soul Harvest disfavorably to Incap misses the point of Soul Harvest. The strength of soul harvest has been, and always will be, its ultimate generation. There is no "bring it in line with Soul."

    Incap isn't a better morph. It's the stamina morph. Incap has always been dodgeable, as any single target ability should be. It misses all the time if the target approaches you on a diagonal vector. Gankers don't get to stun often with incap because the snare from ambush (or stealth) will either already CC the target or grant them immunity if they break free. If you haven't killed the nightblade by the second or third incap, you have a different problem. Even in PvE, Incap is only viable now because of Warmachine.

    Soul Harvest was always there to help a magblade (and even a stamblade) generate ultimate to drop on the boss. Soul Harvest never really was a PvP ultimate, apart from slotting it while zerging to build up a bomb faster. Even in PvE it still serves much the same purpose for a magblade DPS: you can't even use Soul Harvest to activate Master Architect reliably, since magplade DPS is ranged.

    The two ultimates serve radically different purposes for radically different builds. If you're getting close enough to an enemy in a situation where you're not planning on using an AoE ultimate, it sounds like you would rather be a stamblade instead.

    Magblade shouldn't be just more forgiving stamblade with shields. It is truly a different class.

    tl;dr: This is another instance of the magicka persecution complex. Bring yourselves into line with stamblades.

    So if I use the Moves Concealed Weapon Lotus Fan I should just go stamblade? The class has magic based close range moves a magic based gap closer and a magic based close range ultimate. No I don’t want to be a stamblade.

    More forgiving? A light armor build without snare removal in melee combat isn’t exactly what I would call more forgiving. Especially when Healing Ward Siphoning Attacks and Cloak aren’t working properly. Wait maybe the heal that hurts me is more forgiving.

    Magblade is a ranged class. The presence of those abilities does not change that paradigm.
    1. Lotus Fan is an AoE gap-closer used in preparation for a bomb. It isn't a brawling melee ability.
    2. If you're a vampire I wouldn't use Concealed weapon at all. As with Soul Harvest, it's slotted for its movement speed passive.
    3. Both of the above are remnant abilities from when the entire nightblade class was magicka based. Ambush and Surprise Attack were changed to stamina morphs as part of the the changes long ago that brought stamblades into existence. Lotus Fan and Conceal Weapon are the leftover magicka alternatives from a change that caused quite the uproar when it came about. The presence of those abilities doesn't justify making the magblade as adept at close range combat as a stamblade, as they are used in ways radically different from their counterparts, with a very different intended purpose.

    Yes more forgiving. You have vastly more recovery and defensive options as a magblade than you would as a stamblade.
    1. You're not supposed to be in melee combat, so you shouldn't need snare removal as much.
    2. You do have snare removal: It's called stamina. Unlike a stamblade, you don't need to rely on both resource pools to cast abilities, so there's nothing else for you to spend stamina on.
    3. Healing Ward, Siphoning Attacks, and Cloak do work properly, they just aren't as OP as everyone would like them to be. Luckily the magblade has enough resource return to use them far more often than a stamblade ever could.
    4. You also have Swallow Soul, Refreshing Path, Sap Essence, and Soul Tether. The Magblade class is brimming with HoTs.
    4. Since you're running Healing Ward, you're running a resto stave, which means you also get to run Mutagen or Healing Springs. Slotted with Swallow Soul for the Minor Mending, those two abilities are powerful, low cost heals, and Mutagen will even remove a snare for you. Neither Rally nor Vigor are as powerful.

    EDIT: Lets also not forget HARNESS MAGIC/DAMPEN MAGIC. As a light armor build, you get access to those powerful shields as well, in addition to Healing Ward. You can't Harness=>Harden like a magSorc, but then again magSorcs don't have cloak do they?

    Please, don't say that. Mageblade is a flexible class that can go either melee or ranged as desired. You can even use a 2H sword to take advantage of Follow up passive.

    A decent melee mageblade build can be war maiden + torugs with an infused 2H sword and an oblivion or shock glyph
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  • deepseamk20b14_ESO
    deepseamk20b14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    BohnT wrote: »
    None of the death stroke morphs need a buff, incap needs it's stun removed.
    Incap is completely overperfoming and arguably the best single target ult in the game, as you said the cc combined with high damage, 20% damage increase and major defile + passives.
    On top the stun on incap is broken like many others but incap is the one you can't break free of the most.
    I play both stamnb and meele magnb and ofc I'm using incap on both of them. When i count the times an enemy couldn't break free from my incap I always get to ~66% of the times when I'm using incap. People get pinned on the floor and can't react "fast" enough to break free and defend themselves (i mean 2 gcd most of the time). With how much damage the first burst does and how fast nbs can dish out more damage 90% of all builds are dead because of the bugged stun.
    This has to end even without the stun incap and nbs are still one of the most powerful classes in the game and are nowhere near "dead" if people start bringing up that reaction

    I’m not saying incap isn’t strong but considering you have several other ults that do the same or more damage and are undodgable and hit many targets it’s a fairly even trade off when comparing cheap cost and other added benefits. The only time an NB even lands incap on me for instance is if they open a gank with it because other than that it’s insanely easy to dodge and your average player doesn’t have the first clue how to animation cancel anything so the visual cue and sound is a dead give away. That and so many scrubs incap right after an ambush so it’s a dead five away if an NB is ambushing well within melee range he is just trying to get the empower for the incap. Again, easily dodged. To you and I this seems simple but let’s be honest, the number of players who play a nightblade is high, the number of players who are GOOD with nightblade are low.

    They should do something to make soul harvest an equal choice as nightblademechanics said, I agree. But saying incap is over the top when there are several others that are equally devastating is a bit odd.
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  • BohnT
    BohnT
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    BohnT wrote: »
    None of the death stroke morphs need a buff, incap needs it's stun removed.
    Incap is completely overperfoming and arguably the best single target ult in the game, as you said the cc combined with high damage, 20% damage increase and major defile + passives.
    On top the stun on incap is broken like many others but incap is the one you can't break free of the most.
    I play both stamnb and meele magnb and ofc I'm using incap on both of them. When i count the times an enemy couldn't break free from my incap I always get to ~66% of the times when I'm using incap. People get pinned on the floor and can't react "fast" enough to break free and defend themselves (i mean 2 gcd most of the time). With how much damage the first burst does and how fast nbs can dish out more damage 90% of all builds are dead because of the bugged stun.
    This has to end even without the stun incap and nbs are still one of the most powerful classes in the game and are nowhere near "dead" if people start bringing up that reaction

    I’m not saying incap isn’t strong but considering you have several other ults that do the same or more damage and are undodgable and hit many targets it’s a fairly even trade off when comparing cheap cost and other added benefits. The only time an NB even lands incap on me for instance is if they open a gank with it because other than that it’s insanely easy to dodge and your average player doesn’t have the first clue how to animation cancel anything so the visual cue and sound is a dead give away. That and so many scrubs incap right after an ambush so it’s a dead five away if an NB is ambushing well within melee range he is just trying to get the empower for the incap. Again, easily dodged. To you and I this seems simple but let’s be honest, the number of players who play a nightblade is high, the number of players who are GOOD with nightblade are low.

    They should do something to make soul harvest an equal choice as nightblademechanics said, I agree. But saying incap is over the top when there are several others that are equally devastating is a bit odd.

    Animation cancel is what every average player can do also if you get zerged and the incap hits you mid dodgeroll or after it finished there is nothing you can do. Even worse when the cc is bugged and locks you onto the floor.
    Just because only "good" players can utilise a skill is fine but pressing one button isn't hard, with the fast travel time and the overall latency you get hit by incap before you can react at least in cyro.

    I think there are many other things which should be nerfed but if they don't start anywhere they never will do anything.
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    Enough nerfs, more buffs
  • BohnT
    BohnT
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    ✭✭
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Enough nerfs, more buffs

    No, the effort to buff the other classes is much bigger than changing one skill
  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    BohnT wrote: »
    None of the death stroke morphs need a buff, incap needs it's stun removed.
    Incap is completely overperfoming and arguably the best single target ult in the game, as you said the cc combined with high damage, 20% damage increase and major defile + passives.
    On top the stun on incap is broken like many others but incap is the one you can't break free of the most.
    I play both stamnb and meele magnb and ofc I'm using incap on both of them. When i count the times an enemy couldn't break free from my incap I always get to ~66% of the times when I'm using incap. People get pinned on the floor and can't react "fast" enough to break free and defend themselves (i mean 2 gcd most of the time). With how much damage the first burst does and how fast nbs can dish out more damage 90% of all builds are dead because of the bugged stun.
    This has to end even without the stun incap and nbs are still one of the most powerful classes in the game and are nowhere near "dead" if people start bringing up that reaction

    The better option would be to revert its buff from long ago and make it only stun when your % current health is lower than your opponent’s, like it used to. That way it couldn’t stun when used as an opener, but can still be used to turn fights or combo once the nightblade has taken the risk of taking damage.

    I personally haven’t encountered being stuck in the the Incap cc since returning to the game this patch. The break free animation is slow, but I’m still able to cast abilities and block while standing up. My friend had frequent issues with Incap’s cc, but after uninstalling and reinstalling his addons, he had no more issues at all. Turns out, it was lag. Try that.
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  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    BohnT wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    None of the death stroke morphs need a buff, incap needs it's stun removed.
    Incap is completely overperfoming and arguably the best single target ult in the game, as you said the cc combined with high damage, 20% damage increase and major defile + passives.
    On top the stun on incap is broken like many others but incap is the one you can't break free of the most.
    I play both stamnb and meele magnb and ofc I'm using incap on both of them. When i count the times an enemy couldn't break free from my incap I always get to ~66% of the times when I'm using incap. People get pinned on the floor and can't react "fast" enough to break free and defend themselves (i mean 2 gcd most of the time). With how much damage the first burst does and how fast nbs can dish out more damage 90% of all builds are dead because of the bugged stun.
    This has to end even without the stun incap and nbs are still one of the most powerful classes in the game and are nowhere near "dead" if people start bringing up that reaction

    I’m not saying incap isn’t strong but considering you have several other ults that do the same or more damage and are undodgable and hit many targets it’s a fairly even trade off when comparing cheap cost and other added benefits. The only time an NB even lands incap on me for instance is if they open a gank with it because other than that it’s insanely easy to dodge and your average player doesn’t have the first clue how to animation cancel anything so the visual cue and sound is a dead give away. That and so many scrubs incap right after an ambush so it’s a dead five away if an NB is ambushing well within melee range he is just trying to get the empower for the incap. Again, easily dodged. To you and I this seems simple but let’s be honest, the number of players who play a nightblade is high, the number of players who are GOOD with nightblade are low.

    They should do something to make soul harvest an equal choice as nightblademechanics said, I agree. But saying incap is over the top when there are several others that are equally devastating is a bit odd.

    Animation cancel is what every average player can do also if you get zerged and the incap hits you mid dodgeroll or after it finished there is nothing you can do. Even worse when the cc is bugged and locks you onto the floor.
    Just because only "good" players can utilise a skill is fine but pressing one button isn't hard, with the fast travel time and the overall latency you get hit by incap before you can react at least in cyro.

    I think there are many other things which should be nerfed but if they don't start anywhere they never will do anything.

    The game shouldn’t be balanced around lag.

    Anything is op in a zerg.

    Dawnbreaker hits just as hard, isn’t dodgeable, and ccs in an aoe. Much more op in zerg v zerg than Incap.
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  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    @DDuke it´s nice how you theorycraft about magblade melee - but don´t forget that one of the core features aiding to stamblades survivability is being able to chain dodgeroll with cloak while being able to remove snares.
    On magblade you´d have to run 2h to remove snares - which leaves you with about 25% of the lightattack dmg stamblades have - negating all possible dmg advantages (hint: there are none bc your anytimer does not provide major fracture).

    I don´t play too much stamblade - but i played and tested on magblade a lot.

    I don't know if being able to shuffle roll really helps that much, I've found that most of the time stamblade needs to do that, the stamblade also needs to Rally in order to even live. So you're stuck in melee range (probably holding block & losing all your stamina), snared to hell & wishing you had a Healing Ward.

    Shuffle roll->cloak is also easily countered by streak or gap closer->AoE (i.e. volatile or sweeps).


    Regarding damage, remember that most of those stamblades these days have <10k buffed Surprise Attack tooltip, where as my magblade on PTS has 14k on Concealed Weapon with buffs & a 23k tooltip proc set (don't ask me how :D ).

    Don't forget that stamnb gets extra burst via heavy attacks. And i feel that stamnb still deals more burst and can finish people better off who survive the first burst but I'm not sure why

    Are you sure stamblade has more burst?

    PDAOlO6.png

    Using a PTS set pre launch, heck even pre first balance? Yeah stamNB has more consistent and usable burst. A non bomber MagNB has to set up will with some projectile and hope for skoria.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
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  • deepseamk20b14_ESO
    deepseamk20b14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    BohnT wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    None of the death stroke morphs need a buff, incap needs it's stun removed.
    Incap is completely overperfoming and arguably the best single target ult in the game, as you said the cc combined with high damage, 20% damage increase and major defile + passives.
    On top the stun on incap is broken like many others but incap is the one you can't break free of the most.
    I play both stamnb and meele magnb and ofc I'm using incap on both of them. When i count the times an enemy couldn't break free from my incap I always get to ~66% of the times when I'm using incap. People get pinned on the floor and can't react "fast" enough to break free and defend themselves (i mean 2 gcd most of the time). With how much damage the first burst does and how fast nbs can dish out more damage 90% of all builds are dead because of the bugged stun.
    This has to end even without the stun incap and nbs are still one of the most powerful classes in the game and are nowhere near "dead" if people start bringing up that reaction

    I’m not saying incap isn’t strong but considering you have several other ults that do the same or more damage and are undodgable and hit many targets it’s a fairly even trade off when comparing cheap cost and other added benefits. The only time an NB even lands incap on me for instance is if they open a gank with it because other than that it’s insanely easy to dodge and your average player doesn’t have the first clue how to animation cancel anything so the visual cue and sound is a dead give away. That and so many scrubs incap right after an ambush so it’s a dead five away if an NB is ambushing well within melee range he is just trying to get the empower for the incap. Again, easily dodged. To you and I this seems simple but let’s be honest, the number of players who play a nightblade is high, the number of players who are GOOD with nightblade are low.

    They should do something to make soul harvest an equal choice as nightblademechanics said, I agree. But saying incap is over the top when there are several others that are equally devastating is a bit odd.

    Animation cancel is what every average player can do also if you get zerged and the incap hits you mid dodgeroll or after it finished there is nothing you can do. Even worse when the cc is bugged and locks you onto the floor.
    Just because only "good" players can utilise a skill is fine but pressing one button isn't hard, with the fast travel time and the overall latency you get hit by incap before you can react at least in cyro.

    I think there are many other things which should be nerfed but if they don't start anywhere they never will do anything.

    We just have different experiences then. To me the average player isn’t animation canceling at all. Easily 90% of people I see in Cyro don’t animation cancel. There is a huge skill gap in Cyro. People complain about it all the time. That’s why there are always nerf threads and “lets remove animation canceling”. I can use the same scenario you just used and replace incap with dawnbreaker, though more expensive, a NB can have up in a small amount of time. Also there is no “chance it will hit through dodge roll”, it WILL hit through dodge roll. Vamp or WW, plus multiple targets and undogable and gives weapon damage increase and a large DoT and stun? I use dawnbreaker more than I use incap as I’m always fighting more than one person. Don’t even get me started on leap. Also easily animation canceled, a knockdown that is way more glitchy to break free from than incap and also way easier to use a follow up attack as it’s faster to break free from incap assuming one tested it with equal latency. It can do as much damage as incap and with battle roar it’s a resource monster giving you back damn near everything, AND it’s undodgable AoE. Incap needs no nerf. It’s right where it needs to be. Soul harvest is what needs a tiny buff.

    Not trying to fight about it, it’s just my experiences. Yours can be different.
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  • Ron_Burgundy_79
    Ron_Burgundy_79
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @NightbladeMechanics As a magplar that uses crescent sweep, I'm very interested in your crit percentage idea.

    I've also wondered if they could make ultimates do a universal type of damage (ulti damage for the sake of the conversation) rather than physical or magic damage. Ulti damage would scale off all cp. This would allow for more diverse choices in ultimates. Hell, it would even fit ZOS's vision of making hybrids more viable.

    Edit: Mobile version/autocorrect make my grammar even worse than usual.
    Edited by Ron_Burgundy_79 on January 18, 2018 12:26AM
  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    @NightbladeMechanics As a magplar that uses crescent sweep, I'm very interested in your crit percentage idea.

    I've also wondered if they could make ultimates do a universal type of damage (ulti damage for the sake of the conversation) rather than physical or magic damage. Ulti damage would scale off all cp. This would allow for more diverse choices in ultimates. Hell, it would even fit ZOS's vision of making hybrids more viable.

    Edit: Mobile version/autocorrect make my grammar even worse than usual.

    This raises questions around flame damage DK and Dunmer passives and the burning status effect on Leap, but that's about it. Incap already applies Major Defile, so it applying a status effect as disease damage is moot.

    Oh, and also Incap scaling with Swamp Raider and other disease damage amplifiers.

    I personally like ults to have unique damage types in order to interact with passives and sets outside of CP, but I still believe some changes need to be made. Just having ults work off of your highest crit damage and crit chance would go a long way for opening up ulti options for all classes. I can see arguments to go further, though, like yours.
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  • DDuke
    DDuke
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    @DDuke it´s nice how you theorycraft about magblade melee - but don´t forget that one of the core features aiding to stamblades survivability is being able to chain dodgeroll with cloak while being able to remove snares.
    On magblade you´d have to run 2h to remove snares - which leaves you with about 25% of the lightattack dmg stamblades have - negating all possible dmg advantages (hint: there are none bc your anytimer does not provide major fracture).

    I don´t play too much stamblade - but i played and tested on magblade a lot.

    I don't know if being able to shuffle roll really helps that much, I've found that most of the time stamblade needs to do that, the stamblade also needs to Rally in order to even live. So you're stuck in melee range (probably holding block & losing all your stamina), snared to hell & wishing you had a Healing Ward.

    Shuffle roll->cloak is also easily countered by streak or gap closer->AoE (i.e. volatile or sweeps).


    Regarding damage, remember that most of those stamblades these days have <10k buffed Surprise Attack tooltip, where as my magblade on PTS has 14k on Concealed Weapon with buffs & a 23k tooltip proc set (don't ask me how :D ).

    Don't forget that stamnb gets extra burst via heavy attacks. And i feel that stamnb still deals more burst and can finish people better off who survive the first burst but I'm not sure why

    Are you sure stamblade has more burst?

    PDAOlO6.png

    Using a PTS set pre launch, heck even pre first balance? Yeah stamNB has more consistent and usable burst. A non bomber MagNB has to set up will with some projectile and hope for skoria.

    A typical rollerblade has a <10k tooltip on Surprise Attack in PvP.

    You can even build for full dmg (Spriggan+Hunding's+Kra'gh+Kena) & you'll have less damage than a magblade building for full dmg (Spinner's+War Maiden+Domi+Kena), and that's on Live.

    13 827 Concealed tooltip
    vs
    13 420 Surprise Attack tooltip

    ...and you get 2317 more pen (i.e. 3,5% more dmg), 1% more crit dmg (as you can and should put less points into spell erosion) with light armor.

    So here's a quick comparison:

    Magblade
    Lotus Fan 13 129 (Empowered with Magelight)
    Lotus Fan Tick 832
    Tether 21 907
    Tether Tick 2110
    Lotus Fan Tick 832
    Merciless 27 652
    Tether Tick 2110
    Lotus Fan Tick 832
    69 404
    -Battle Spirit
    34 702+83%(crit modifier)=63 504

    Stamblade
    Ambush 13 110 (Empowered with Magelight)
    Incap 22 993 (Empowered with Ambush)
    Relentless 29 258 (+20% from Incap)
    65 361
    -Battle Spirit
    32 680+82%(crit modifier)=59 478-3.5%(the difference in penetration)=57 396


    As you can see, magblade can get not only similar burst, but even better (without Detonation). On Live.

    People just don't experiment/theorycraft enough.
    Edited by DDuke on January 18, 2018 1:29AM
  • BohnT
    BohnT
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    @DDuke it´s nice how you theorycraft about magblade melee - but don´t forget that one of the core features aiding to stamblades survivability is being able to chain dodgeroll with cloak while being able to remove snares.
    On magblade you´d have to run 2h to remove snares - which leaves you with about 25% of the lightattack dmg stamblades have - negating all possible dmg advantages (hint: there are none bc your anytimer does not provide major fracture).

    I don´t play too much stamblade - but i played and tested on magblade a lot.

    I don't know if being able to shuffle roll really helps that much, I've found that most of the time stamblade needs to do that, the stamblade also needs to Rally in order to even live. So you're stuck in melee range (probably holding block & losing all your stamina), snared to hell & wishing you had a Healing Ward.

    Shuffle roll->cloak is also easily countered by streak or gap closer->AoE (i.e. volatile or sweeps).


    Regarding damage, remember that most of those stamblades these days have <10k buffed Surprise Attack tooltip, where as my magblade on PTS has 14k on Concealed Weapon with buffs & a 23k tooltip proc set (don't ask me how :D ).

    Don't forget that stamnb gets extra burst via heavy attacks. And i feel that stamnb still deals more burst and can finish people better off who survive the first burst but I'm not sure why

    Are you sure stamblade has more burst?

    PDAOlO6.png

    Using a PTS set pre launch, heck even pre first balance? Yeah stamNB has more consistent and usable burst. A non bomber MagNB has to set up will with some projectile and hope for skoria.

    A typical rollerblade has a <10k tooltip on Surprise Attack in PvP.

    You can even build for full dmg (Spriggan+Hunding's+Kra'gh+Kena) & you'll have less damage than a magblade building for full dmg (Spinner's+War Maiden+Domi+Kena), and that's on Live.

    13 827 Concealed tooltip
    vs
    13 420 Surprise Attack tooltip

    ...and you get 2317 more pen (i.e. 3,5% more dmg), 1% more crit dmg (as you can and should put less points into spell erosion) with light armor.

    So here's a quick comparison:

    Magblade
    Lotus Fan 13 129
    Lotus Fan Tick 832
    Tether 21 907
    Tether Tick 2110
    Lotus Fan Tick 832
    Merciless 27 652
    Tether Tick 2110
    Lotus Fan Tick 832
    69 404
    -Battle Spirit
    34 702+83%(crit modifier)=63 504

    Stamblade
    Ambush 13 110
    Incap 22 993
    Relentless 29 258
    65 361
    -Battle Spirit
    32 680+82%(crit modifier)=59 478-3.5%(the difference in penetration)=57 396


    As you can see, magblade can get not only similar burst, but even better (without Detonation). On Live.

    People just don't experiment/theorycraft enough.

    Sry but the light/ heavy attack weaves are missing and on stamnb they actually do much more damage than on magnb.
    With the extra damage of those they are almost at the same level. With an PI tick the damage of stamnb is higher even if cripple is applied.
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    BohnT wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    BohnT wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    @DDuke it´s nice how you theorycraft about magblade melee - but don´t forget that one of the core features aiding to stamblades survivability is being able to chain dodgeroll with cloak while being able to remove snares.
    On magblade you´d have to run 2h to remove snares - which leaves you with about 25% of the lightattack dmg stamblades have - negating all possible dmg advantages (hint: there are none bc your anytimer does not provide major fracture).

    I don´t play too much stamblade - but i played and tested on magblade a lot.

    I don't know if being able to shuffle roll really helps that much, I've found that most of the time stamblade needs to do that, the stamblade also needs to Rally in order to even live. So you're stuck in melee range (probably holding block & losing all your stamina), snared to hell & wishing you had a Healing Ward.

    Shuffle roll->cloak is also easily countered by streak or gap closer->AoE (i.e. volatile or sweeps).


    Regarding damage, remember that most of those stamblades these days have <10k buffed Surprise Attack tooltip, where as my magblade on PTS has 14k on Concealed Weapon with buffs & a 23k tooltip proc set (don't ask me how :D ).

    Don't forget that stamnb gets extra burst via heavy attacks. And i feel that stamnb still deals more burst and can finish people better off who survive the first burst but I'm not sure why

    Are you sure stamblade has more burst?

    PDAOlO6.png

    Using a PTS set pre launch, heck even pre first balance? Yeah stamNB has more consistent and usable burst. A non bomber MagNB has to set up will with some projectile and hope for skoria.

    A typical rollerblade has a <10k tooltip on Surprise Attack in PvP.

    You can even build for full dmg (Spriggan+Hunding's+Kra'gh+Kena) & you'll have less damage than a magblade building for full dmg (Spinner's+War Maiden+Domi+Kena), and that's on Live.

    13 827 Concealed tooltip
    vs
    13 420 Surprise Attack tooltip

    ...and you get 2317 more pen (i.e. 3,5% more dmg), 1% more crit dmg (as you can and should put less points into spell erosion) with light armor.

    So here's a quick comparison:

    Magblade
    Lotus Fan 13 129
    Lotus Fan Tick 832
    Tether 21 907
    Tether Tick 2110
    Lotus Fan Tick 832
    Merciless 27 652
    Tether Tick 2110
    Lotus Fan Tick 832
    69 404
    -Battle Spirit
    34 702+83%(crit modifier)=63 504

    Stamblade
    Ambush 13 110
    Incap 22 993
    Relentless 29 258
    65 361
    -Battle Spirit
    32 680+82%(crit modifier)=59 478-3.5%(the difference in penetration)=57 396


    As you can see, magblade can get not only similar burst, but even better (without Detonation). On Live.

    People just don't experiment/theorycraft enough.

    Sry but the light/ heavy attack weaves are missing and on stamnb they actually do much more damage than on magnb.
    With the extra damage of those they are almost at the same level. With an PI tick the damage of stamnb is higher even if cripple is applied.

    Ah yes, though there's only one instance where you can light attack: I'm using bosmer character as my template for both magblade & stamblade, and you definitely don't want to lose the +10% dmg racial & Master Assassin passive on your ulti & DoT ticks because you light attacked and broke the cloak. You can get one light attack off after ultimate though.

    Here's the values:
    Magblade DW Light Attack
    2018/2(Battle Spirit)=1009

    Stamblade DW Light Attack
    4526/2(Battle Spirit)=2263+82% Crit Modifier=4118

    So here's the values now:
    Magblade 64 513
    Stamblade 61 370


    And sure, we can add DoTs.

    Poison Injection
    10 786 tooltip=2157 every 2s/2(Battle Spirit)=1078 every 2s+82%(crit modifier)=

    Scales up to 3882(+82% crit modifier=7065)

    Crippling Grasp
    19 543=4885 every 2s/2(Battle Spirit)=2442 every 2s+83%(crit modifier)=4468


    Values after this:
    Magblade 68 981
    Stamblade 68 435 (with maximum PI tick)


    ...and then I could add Detonation, but it would just cause an existential crisis amongst the "stamblade op" crowd, so let's avoid that.
    Edited by DDuke on January 18, 2018 1:59AM
  • Firstmep
    Firstmep
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    @NightbladeMechanics As a magplar that uses crescent sweep, I'm very interested in your crit percentage idea.

    I've also wondered if they could make ultimates do a universal type of damage (ulti damage for the sake of the conversation) rather than physical or magic damage. Ulti damage would scale off all cp. This would allow for more diverse choices in ultimates. Hell, it would even fit ZOS's vision of making hybrids more viable.

    Edit: Mobile version/autocorrect make my grammar even worse than usual.

    Or what I said and make them do damage based on ur higher stats like Burning Light :)
    Edited by Firstmep on January 18, 2018 1:43AM
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