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Soul Harvest will need an additional effect in order to compete with Incap following this bug fix

  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    Kilandros wrote: »
    Give Soul Harvest a small 5m splash-damage AoE so that nearby targets take 25-50% of the damage done to the initial target and the ability can stay undodgeable.

    Nice Freudian slip.
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar
    All chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    Hollery wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    It's a true statement.

    Believing in Santa with all my might won't make him anymore real.

    Even if I could slot Incap on my stamsorc, I'd still use DBoS for the DoT in order to proc Implosion.

    On my stamDK, sure it's more of a tossup, but I'd still prefer Leap or DBoS in open world since I can't reset fights in the way stamSorcs or Stamblades can.

    In a 1v1, Incap is the strongest ultimate, but the assassin class should have an edge in 1v1 regardless. Again, the word to keep in mind is "situationally". Incap should be the benchmark class ultimate. DBoS, Incap, Northern Storm, Soul Assault (live) and to a lesser extent; Leap, Meteor, Soul Tether, Destro ultimate, Ballista etc, can completely change the flow of a fight if used correctly. This is what an ultimate should be doing. Majority of Ultimates are simply lacklustre as they are. Incap is fine, other class ultimates need a buff (looking at you templars xD)
    Hollery wrote: »
    I've rarely seen anyone other than a stamblade use DBoS. I like your suggestions to soul harvest but 15% decrease might be a bit to much there

    Sorry I meant stamblade, not nightblades in general. DBoS wouldn't make sense on a magBlade since they don't have strong PvP AoE. It makes sense on a Magplar if you wan't to drop a field of potatos, but thats more about synergy than individual ultimate balance.

    I agree that 15% maybe a bit too much, maybe more along the lines of 8%. Bias of a melee magblade :wink: *Note-I don't main mag blade, I literally play all classes somewhat equally but I "main" sorc (mag and stam).

    pieratsos wrote: »
    So let me get this straight. You want a cheap high dmg spammable with a "viper on steroids" attached to it. And you also want a high dmg ult, that is so cheap to the point where u can use it every other rotation, applies major defile, gives you a 20% dmg buff, gives ult, gives you a speed buff and snare immunity for 5 seconds which means you will be prety much immune to snares all the time. And this is not overpowered according to you.

    Wanna double the dmg of spectral bow too? Or maybe impale having execute dmg from 50% hp?

    So do you think about what you read? Or do you simply nitpick points and pull them out of context to promote your own bias?

    Hrmmm...a viper on steroids? Grab a napkin:

    Viper-6400 tooltip
    Surprise Attack-10,000 tooltip
    Light attack(2h)-6000 tooltip (rounded up from UESP value of 5 pc Hunding, 2 selene, 3 agility)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-22,400
    After Battle Spirit-11,200
    w/o viper-8000

    "viper on steroids"-3,000
    Concealed weapon-10,000
    Light Attack (DW)/(Fire Destro)-1.5k/6k (same as 2h, but with julianos/agility/grothdar)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-14,500/19,000
    After Battle Spirit-7,250/9,500

    As you can see, the whole point of the "viper of steroids" is to make up for the lack of LA weave damage that melee magblades tend to lose out on. On top of that, melee magblades need to be in melee range :open_mouth: which often requires dodge rolling, especially vs a magplar/magdk which means they need to invest more into stamina losing out on something else, usually damage. So realistically, the concealed weapon tooltip should be somewhat lower than surprise attack. ON TOP of that the "viper on steroids" would only proc after the initial weave, meaning even without viper, a stamblade is still more likely to output more damage.

    The combination does output more damage with a fire staff, but again, it requires melee combat which a mag blade would have to build for (i.e. less damage=lower tooltips) and it removes the benefit of ranged combat from using a destro staff. Destro light attacks also tend to have lower damage than 2h because they are meant to be used from range. Check UESP with a blank build. It's around 127 for a fire destro vs 170 for a 2H

    In regards to the ultimate, I agree that the snare immunity could be over the top. It definitely wouldn't be 100% uptime. The snare immunity could be reduced to 2.5 seconds, but then I really see no point in slotting Soul Harvest over Incap if that were the case.

    And LOL at the QQ for the movement speed. It's literally build into the magblade kit regardless, it's just on a different skill now.

    Honestly, listing the effects of an ability is a poor argument. You need to give it context. Take Frags for example. It used to be really strong in the magsorc rotation, but do you really think a stamplar or stamblade would use it over their spammable (assuming frag scaled off stam/WD)? Most likely no because it doesn't work with the kit. It's reasonable to overload certain skills if it suits the class identity. I suggested an ultimate that really does nothing besides give the class more breathing room in a MELEE combat situation, which puts the class at an automatic disadvantage as building tanky does not offer the same benefits for magblades as it does for magDKs/magplars.

    That bs you suggested can proc every second. Its unavoidable dmg every second, in other words "viper on steroids".
    Frag is not a spammable. They would absolutely use it in combination with their spammables. Sorcs dont use frag as a spammable either. In fact, frags would probably be stronger on other classes. So wtf are you even talking about.

    Honestly listing the effects of an ability is not a poor argument. Especially when that ability is an ultimate so cheap to the point of almost being used as a spammable and has a million different effects attached to it.

    -Frags is more of a spammable than Soul Harvest
    -Overload is cheaper than Soul Harvest, is ranged, and literally is a spammable (A spammable is something that can be spammed provided you have enough resources for it. )

    Overload is the easiest counterable ult in the entire game and last time i checked it doesnt apply major defile, gives a dmg buff, snare immunity, speed buff and more ult. Whats next? Ask for soul harvest to store ult so you can spam it? Will you be happy then?

    And about frags. Do you actually believe that other classes wouldnt slot frag because they have other spammables? Like seriously?
  • Kilandros
    Kilandros
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    Feanor wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    Give Soul Harvest a small 5m splash-damage AoE so that nearby targets take 25-50% of the damage done to the initial target and the ability can stay undodgeable.

    Nice Freudian slip.

    I genuinely think Soul Harvest should stay undodgeable. More so than Power Lash. Shrug.
    Invictus
    Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
    Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
    Sias - Sorcerer / Prefect
    Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

    DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT
  • A_G_G_R_O
    A_G_G_R_O
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    Either that, or make all ultis (including Incap) function off of highest crit chance and crit damage stat, like they do with your spell/weapon damage and max stam/magicka. That way, we non-bomber magicka builds can all happily use Incap and deal some more damage with it. Right now it deals very little on magicka builds, yet is still the stronger morph despite Soul Harvest being undodgeable.

    Bruh if they do this my eye of frost clever alchemist stamplar meme would be complete..... plz do this ZoS
  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    Hollery wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    It's a true statement.

    Believing in Santa with all my might won't make him anymore real.

    Even if I could slot Incap on my stamsorc, I'd still use DBoS for the DoT in order to proc Implosion.

    On my stamDK, sure it's more of a tossup, but I'd still prefer Leap or DBoS in open world since I can't reset fights in the way stamSorcs or Stamblades can.

    In a 1v1, Incap is the strongest ultimate, but the assassin class should have an edge in 1v1 regardless. Again, the word to keep in mind is "situationally". Incap should be the benchmark class ultimate. DBoS, Incap, Northern Storm, Soul Assault (live) and to a lesser extent; Leap, Meteor, Soul Tether, Destro ultimate, Ballista etc, can completely change the flow of a fight if used correctly. This is what an ultimate should be doing. Majority of Ultimates are simply lacklustre as they are. Incap is fine, other class ultimates need a buff (looking at you templars xD)
    Hollery wrote: »
    I've rarely seen anyone other than a stamblade use DBoS. I like your suggestions to soul harvest but 15% decrease might be a bit to much there

    Sorry I meant stamblade, not nightblades in general. DBoS wouldn't make sense on a magBlade since they don't have strong PvP AoE. It makes sense on a Magplar if you wan't to drop a field of potatos, but thats more about synergy than individual ultimate balance.

    I agree that 15% maybe a bit too much, maybe more along the lines of 8%. Bias of a melee magblade :wink: *Note-I don't main mag blade, I literally play all classes somewhat equally but I "main" sorc (mag and stam).

    pieratsos wrote: »
    So let me get this straight. You want a cheap high dmg spammable with a "viper on steroids" attached to it. And you also want a high dmg ult, that is so cheap to the point where u can use it every other rotation, applies major defile, gives you a 20% dmg buff, gives ult, gives you a speed buff and snare immunity for 5 seconds which means you will be prety much immune to snares all the time. And this is not overpowered according to you.

    Wanna double the dmg of spectral bow too? Or maybe impale having execute dmg from 50% hp?

    So do you think about what you read? Or do you simply nitpick points and pull them out of context to promote your own bias?

    Hrmmm...a viper on steroids? Grab a napkin:

    Viper-6400 tooltip
    Surprise Attack-10,000 tooltip
    Light attack(2h)-6000 tooltip (rounded up from UESP value of 5 pc Hunding, 2 selene, 3 agility)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-22,400
    After Battle Spirit-11,200
    w/o viper-8000

    "viper on steroids"-3,000
    Concealed weapon-10,000
    Light Attack (DW)/(Fire Destro)-1.5k/6k (same as 2h, but with julianos/agility/grothdar)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-14,500/19,000
    After Battle Spirit-7,250/9,500

    As you can see, the whole point of the "viper of steroids" is to make up for the lack of LA weave damage that melee magblades tend to lose out on. On top of that, melee magblades need to be in melee range :open_mouth: which often requires dodge rolling, especially vs a magplar/magdk which means they need to invest more into stamina losing out on something else, usually damage. So realistically, the concealed weapon tooltip should be somewhat lower than surprise attack. ON TOP of that the "viper on steroids" would only proc after the initial weave, meaning even without viper, a stamblade is still more likely to output more damage.

    The combination does output more damage with a fire staff, but again, it requires melee combat which a mag blade would have to build for (i.e. less damage=lower tooltips) and it removes the benefit of ranged combat from using a destro staff. Destro light attacks also tend to have lower damage than 2h because they are meant to be used from range. Check UESP with a blank build. It's around 127 for a fire destro vs 170 for a 2H

    In regards to the ultimate, I agree that the snare immunity could be over the top. It definitely wouldn't be 100% uptime. The snare immunity could be reduced to 2.5 seconds, but then I really see no point in slotting Soul Harvest over Incap if that were the case.

    And LOL at the QQ for the movement speed. It's literally build into the magblade kit regardless, it's just on a different skill now.

    Honestly, listing the effects of an ability is a poor argument. You need to give it context. Take Frags for example. It used to be really strong in the magsorc rotation, but do you really think a stamplar or stamblade would use it over their spammable (assuming frag scaled off stam/WD)? Most likely no because it doesn't work with the kit. It's reasonable to overload certain skills if it suits the class identity. I suggested an ultimate that really does nothing besides give the class more breathing room in a MELEE combat situation, which puts the class at an automatic disadvantage as building tanky does not offer the same benefits for magblades as it does for magDKs/magplars.

    That bs you suggested can proc every second. Its unavoidable dmg every second, in other words "viper on steroids".
    Frag is not a spammable. They would absolutely use it in combination with their spammables. Sorcs dont use frag as a spammable either. In fact, frags would probably be stronger on other classes. So wtf are you even talking about.

    Honestly listing the effects of an ability is not a poor argument. Especially when that ability is an ultimate so cheap to the point of almost being used as a spammable and has a million different effects attached to it.

    -Frags is more of a spammable than Soul Harvest
    -Overload is cheaper than Soul Harvest, is ranged, and literally is a spammable (A spammable is something that can be spammed provided you have enough resources for it. )

    Overload is the easiest counterable ult in the entire game and last time i checked it doesnt apply major defile, gives a dmg buff, snare immunity, speed buff and more ult. Whats next? Ask for soul harvest to store ult so you can spam it? Will you be happy then?

    You can only counterplay so many 20k light attacks :trollface: It's certainly more spammable than Soul Harvest.

    That said, it's seldom used offensively not because it's weak or easily countered, but because shifting in and out of Overload is clunky.

    Anyways, you can list the positives of anything and make it sound op. These two abilities are too different to be directly compared in this manner.
    Edited by NightbladeMechanics on February 8, 2018 9:27PM
    Kena
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  • NyassaV
    NyassaV
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    Hollery wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    It's a true statement.

    Believing in Santa with all my might won't make him anymore real.

    Even if I could slot Incap on my stamsorc, I'd still use DBoS for the DoT in order to proc Implosion.

    On my stamDK, sure it's more of a tossup, but I'd still prefer Leap or DBoS in open world since I can't reset fights in the way stamSorcs or Stamblades can.

    In a 1v1, Incap is the strongest ultimate, but the assassin class should have an edge in 1v1 regardless. Again, the word to keep in mind is "situationally". Incap should be the benchmark class ultimate. DBoS, Incap, Northern Storm, Soul Assault (live) and to a lesser extent; Leap, Meteor, Soul Tether, Destro ultimate, Ballista etc, can completely change the flow of a fight if used correctly. This is what an ultimate should be doing. Majority of Ultimates are simply lacklustre as they are. Incap is fine, other class ultimates need a buff (looking at you templars xD)
    Hollery wrote: »
    I've rarely seen anyone other than a stamblade use DBoS. I like your suggestions to soul harvest but 15% decrease might be a bit to much there

    Sorry I meant stamblade, not nightblades in general. DBoS wouldn't make sense on a magBlade since they don't have strong PvP AoE. It makes sense on a Magplar if you wan't to drop a field of potatos, but thats more about synergy than individual ultimate balance.

    I agree that 15% maybe a bit too much, maybe more along the lines of 8%. Bias of a melee magblade :wink: *Note-I don't main mag blade, I literally play all classes somewhat equally but I "main" sorc (mag and stam).

    pieratsos wrote: »
    So let me get this straight. You want a cheap high dmg spammable with a "viper on steroids" attached to it. And you also want a high dmg ult, that is so cheap to the point where u can use it every other rotation, applies major defile, gives you a 20% dmg buff, gives ult, gives you a speed buff and snare immunity for 5 seconds which means you will be prety much immune to snares all the time. And this is not overpowered according to you.

    Wanna double the dmg of spectral bow too? Or maybe impale having execute dmg from 50% hp?

    So do you think about what you read? Or do you simply nitpick points and pull them out of context to promote your own bias?

    Hrmmm...a viper on steroids? Grab a napkin:

    Viper-6400 tooltip
    Surprise Attack-10,000 tooltip
    Light attack(2h)-6000 tooltip (rounded up from UESP value of 5 pc Hunding, 2 selene, 3 agility)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-22,400
    After Battle Spirit-11,200
    w/o viper-8000

    "viper on steroids"-3,000
    Concealed weapon-10,000
    Light Attack (DW)/(Fire Destro)-1.5k/6k (same as 2h, but with julianos/agility/grothdar)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-14,500/19,000
    After Battle Spirit-7,250/9,500

    As you can see, the whole point of the "viper of steroids" is to make up for the lack of LA weave damage that melee magblades tend to lose out on. On top of that, melee magblades need to be in melee range :open_mouth: which often requires dodge rolling, especially vs a magplar/magdk which means they need to invest more into stamina losing out on something else, usually damage. So realistically, the concealed weapon tooltip should be somewhat lower than surprise attack. ON TOP of that the "viper on steroids" would only proc after the initial weave, meaning even without viper, a stamblade is still more likely to output more damage.

    The combination does output more damage with a fire staff, but again, it requires melee combat which a mag blade would have to build for (i.e. less damage=lower tooltips) and it removes the benefit of ranged combat from using a destro staff. Destro light attacks also tend to have lower damage than 2h because they are meant to be used from range. Check UESP with a blank build. It's around 127 for a fire destro vs 170 for a 2H

    In regards to the ultimate, I agree that the snare immunity could be over the top. It definitely wouldn't be 100% uptime. The snare immunity could be reduced to 2.5 seconds, but then I really see no point in slotting Soul Harvest over Incap if that were the case.

    And LOL at the QQ for the movement speed. It's literally build into the magblade kit regardless, it's just on a different skill now.

    Honestly, listing the effects of an ability is a poor argument. You need to give it context. Take Frags for example. It used to be really strong in the magsorc rotation, but do you really think a stamplar or stamblade would use it over their spammable (assuming frag scaled off stam/WD)? Most likely no because it doesn't work with the kit. It's reasonable to overload certain skills if it suits the class identity. I suggested an ultimate that really does nothing besides give the class more breathing room in a MELEE combat situation, which puts the class at an automatic disadvantage as building tanky does not offer the same benefits for magblades as it does for magDKs/magplars.

    That bs you suggested can proc every second. Its unavoidable dmg every second, in other words "viper on steroids".
    Frag is not a spammable. They would absolutely use it in combination with their spammables. Sorcs dont use frag as a spammable either. In fact, frags would probably be stronger on other classes. So wtf are you even talking about.

    Honestly listing the effects of an ability is not a poor argument. Especially when that ability is an ultimate so cheap to the point of almost being used as a spammable and has a million different effects attached to it.

    -Frags is more of a spammable than Soul Harvest
    -Overload is cheaper than Soul Harvest, is ranged, and literally is a spammable (A spammable is something that can be spammed provided you have enough resources for it. )

    Overload is the easiest counterable ult in the entire game and last time i checked it doesnt apply major defile, gives a dmg buff, snare immunity, speed buff and more ult. Whats next? Ask for soul harvest to store ult so you can spam it? Will you be happy then?

    And about frags. Do you actually believe that other classes wouldnt slot frag because they have other spammables? Like seriously?

    Wut... Soul harvest doesn't give snare immunity or speed? Overload is cheaper than Soul harvest so I'd hope it would have some counters. And I don't need it to store ult. And what you say about frags makes literally no sense. I'm stating that what you said is incorrect
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  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    ✭✭
    pieratsos wrote: »
    Hollery wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    It's a true statement.

    Believing in Santa with all my might won't make him anymore real.

    Even if I could slot Incap on my stamsorc, I'd still use DBoS for the DoT in order to proc Implosion.

    On my stamDK, sure it's more of a tossup, but I'd still prefer Leap or DBoS in open world since I can't reset fights in the way stamSorcs or Stamblades can.

    In a 1v1, Incap is the strongest ultimate, but the assassin class should have an edge in 1v1 regardless. Again, the word to keep in mind is "situationally". Incap should be the benchmark class ultimate. DBoS, Incap, Northern Storm, Soul Assault (live) and to a lesser extent; Leap, Meteor, Soul Tether, Destro ultimate, Ballista etc, can completely change the flow of a fight if used correctly. This is what an ultimate should be doing. Majority of Ultimates are simply lacklustre as they are. Incap is fine, other class ultimates need a buff (looking at you templars xD)
    Hollery wrote: »
    I've rarely seen anyone other than a stamblade use DBoS. I like your suggestions to soul harvest but 15% decrease might be a bit to much there

    Sorry I meant stamblade, not nightblades in general. DBoS wouldn't make sense on a magBlade since they don't have strong PvP AoE. It makes sense on a Magplar if you wan't to drop a field of potatos, but thats more about synergy than individual ultimate balance.

    I agree that 15% maybe a bit too much, maybe more along the lines of 8%. Bias of a melee magblade :wink: *Note-I don't main mag blade, I literally play all classes somewhat equally but I "main" sorc (mag and stam).

    pieratsos wrote: »
    So let me get this straight. You want a cheap high dmg spammable with a "viper on steroids" attached to it. And you also want a high dmg ult, that is so cheap to the point where u can use it every other rotation, applies major defile, gives you a 20% dmg buff, gives ult, gives you a speed buff and snare immunity for 5 seconds which means you will be prety much immune to snares all the time. And this is not overpowered according to you.

    Wanna double the dmg of spectral bow too? Or maybe impale having execute dmg from 50% hp?

    So do you think about what you read? Or do you simply nitpick points and pull them out of context to promote your own bias?

    Hrmmm...a viper on steroids? Grab a napkin:

    Viper-6400 tooltip
    Surprise Attack-10,000 tooltip
    Light attack(2h)-6000 tooltip (rounded up from UESP value of 5 pc Hunding, 2 selene, 3 agility)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-22,400
    After Battle Spirit-11,200
    w/o viper-8000

    "viper on steroids"-3,000
    Concealed weapon-10,000
    Light Attack (DW)/(Fire Destro)-1.5k/6k (same as 2h, but with julianos/agility/grothdar)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-14,500/19,000
    After Battle Spirit-7,250/9,500

    As you can see, the whole point of the "viper of steroids" is to make up for the lack of LA weave damage that melee magblades tend to lose out on. On top of that, melee magblades need to be in melee range :open_mouth: which often requires dodge rolling, especially vs a magplar/magdk which means they need to invest more into stamina losing out on something else, usually damage. So realistically, the concealed weapon tooltip should be somewhat lower than surprise attack. ON TOP of that the "viper on steroids" would only proc after the initial weave, meaning even without viper, a stamblade is still more likely to output more damage.

    The combination does output more damage with a fire staff, but again, it requires melee combat which a mag blade would have to build for (i.e. less damage=lower tooltips) and it removes the benefit of ranged combat from using a destro staff. Destro light attacks also tend to have lower damage than 2h because they are meant to be used from range. Check UESP with a blank build. It's around 127 for a fire destro vs 170 for a 2H

    In regards to the ultimate, I agree that the snare immunity could be over the top. It definitely wouldn't be 100% uptime. The snare immunity could be reduced to 2.5 seconds, but then I really see no point in slotting Soul Harvest over Incap if that were the case.

    And LOL at the QQ for the movement speed. It's literally build into the magblade kit regardless, it's just on a different skill now.

    Honestly, listing the effects of an ability is a poor argument. You need to give it context. Take Frags for example. It used to be really strong in the magsorc rotation, but do you really think a stamplar or stamblade would use it over their spammable (assuming frag scaled off stam/WD)? Most likely no because it doesn't work with the kit. It's reasonable to overload certain skills if it suits the class identity. I suggested an ultimate that really does nothing besides give the class more breathing room in a MELEE combat situation, which puts the class at an automatic disadvantage as building tanky does not offer the same benefits for magblades as it does for magDKs/magplars.

    That bs you suggested can proc every second. Its unavoidable dmg every second, in other words "viper on steroids".
    Frag is not a spammable. They would absolutely use it in combination with their spammables. Sorcs dont use frag as a spammable either. In fact, frags would probably be stronger on other classes. So wtf are you even talking about.

    Honestly listing the effects of an ability is not a poor argument. Especially when that ability is an ultimate so cheap to the point of almost being used as a spammable and has a million different effects attached to it.

    -Frags is more of a spammable than Soul Harvest
    -Overload is cheaper than Soul Harvest, is ranged, and literally is a spammable (A spammable is something that can be spammed provided you have enough resources for it. )

    Overload is the easiest counterable ult in the entire game and last time i checked it doesnt apply major defile, gives a dmg buff, snare immunity, speed buff and more ult. Whats next? Ask for soul harvest to store ult so you can spam it? Will you be happy then?

    You can only counterplay so many 20k light attacks :trollface: It's certainly more spammable than Soul Harvest.

    That said, it's seldom used offensively not because it's weak or easily countered, but because shifting in and out of Overload is clunky.

    Anyways, you can list the positives of anything and make it sound op. These two abilities are too different to be directly compared in this manner.

    But im not the one who started bringing up sorc abilities. I was just simply stating that the suggestions someone made regarding buffs to soul harvest were completely nuts. I didnt make it sound OP. It is OP. He literally said to reduce the cost to 50, give snare immunity and also give it the passive speed buff of concealed weapon so he can also suggest some stupid buffs for concealed weapon as well like reducing the cost and give it a viper proc on every light attack after concealed.
    Edited by pieratsos on February 8, 2018 9:44PM
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Hollery wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    Hollery wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    It's a true statement.

    Believing in Santa with all my might won't make him anymore real.

    Even if I could slot Incap on my stamsorc, I'd still use DBoS for the DoT in order to proc Implosion.

    On my stamDK, sure it's more of a tossup, but I'd still prefer Leap or DBoS in open world since I can't reset fights in the way stamSorcs or Stamblades can.

    In a 1v1, Incap is the strongest ultimate, but the assassin class should have an edge in 1v1 regardless. Again, the word to keep in mind is "situationally". Incap should be the benchmark class ultimate. DBoS, Incap, Northern Storm, Soul Assault (live) and to a lesser extent; Leap, Meteor, Soul Tether, Destro ultimate, Ballista etc, can completely change the flow of a fight if used correctly. This is what an ultimate should be doing. Majority of Ultimates are simply lacklustre as they are. Incap is fine, other class ultimates need a buff (looking at you templars xD)
    Hollery wrote: »
    I've rarely seen anyone other than a stamblade use DBoS. I like your suggestions to soul harvest but 15% decrease might be a bit to much there

    Sorry I meant stamblade, not nightblades in general. DBoS wouldn't make sense on a magBlade since they don't have strong PvP AoE. It makes sense on a Magplar if you wan't to drop a field of potatos, but thats more about synergy than individual ultimate balance.

    I agree that 15% maybe a bit too much, maybe more along the lines of 8%. Bias of a melee magblade :wink: *Note-I don't main mag blade, I literally play all classes somewhat equally but I "main" sorc (mag and stam).

    pieratsos wrote: »
    So let me get this straight. You want a cheap high dmg spammable with a "viper on steroids" attached to it. And you also want a high dmg ult, that is so cheap to the point where u can use it every other rotation, applies major defile, gives you a 20% dmg buff, gives ult, gives you a speed buff and snare immunity for 5 seconds which means you will be prety much immune to snares all the time. And this is not overpowered according to you.

    Wanna double the dmg of spectral bow too? Or maybe impale having execute dmg from 50% hp?

    So do you think about what you read? Or do you simply nitpick points and pull them out of context to promote your own bias?

    Hrmmm...a viper on steroids? Grab a napkin:

    Viper-6400 tooltip
    Surprise Attack-10,000 tooltip
    Light attack(2h)-6000 tooltip (rounded up from UESP value of 5 pc Hunding, 2 selene, 3 agility)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-22,400
    After Battle Spirit-11,200
    w/o viper-8000

    "viper on steroids"-3,000
    Concealed weapon-10,000
    Light Attack (DW)/(Fire Destro)-1.5k/6k (same as 2h, but with julianos/agility/grothdar)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-14,500/19,000
    After Battle Spirit-7,250/9,500

    As you can see, the whole point of the "viper of steroids" is to make up for the lack of LA weave damage that melee magblades tend to lose out on. On top of that, melee magblades need to be in melee range :open_mouth: which often requires dodge rolling, especially vs a magplar/magdk which means they need to invest more into stamina losing out on something else, usually damage. So realistically, the concealed weapon tooltip should be somewhat lower than surprise attack. ON TOP of that the "viper on steroids" would only proc after the initial weave, meaning even without viper, a stamblade is still more likely to output more damage.

    The combination does output more damage with a fire staff, but again, it requires melee combat which a mag blade would have to build for (i.e. less damage=lower tooltips) and it removes the benefit of ranged combat from using a destro staff. Destro light attacks also tend to have lower damage than 2h because they are meant to be used from range. Check UESP with a blank build. It's around 127 for a fire destro vs 170 for a 2H

    In regards to the ultimate, I agree that the snare immunity could be over the top. It definitely wouldn't be 100% uptime. The snare immunity could be reduced to 2.5 seconds, but then I really see no point in slotting Soul Harvest over Incap if that were the case.

    And LOL at the QQ for the movement speed. It's literally build into the magblade kit regardless, it's just on a different skill now.

    Honestly, listing the effects of an ability is a poor argument. You need to give it context. Take Frags for example. It used to be really strong in the magsorc rotation, but do you really think a stamplar or stamblade would use it over their spammable (assuming frag scaled off stam/WD)? Most likely no because it doesn't work with the kit. It's reasonable to overload certain skills if it suits the class identity. I suggested an ultimate that really does nothing besides give the class more breathing room in a MELEE combat situation, which puts the class at an automatic disadvantage as building tanky does not offer the same benefits for magblades as it does for magDKs/magplars.

    That bs you suggested can proc every second. Its unavoidable dmg every second, in other words "viper on steroids".
    Frag is not a spammable. They would absolutely use it in combination with their spammables. Sorcs dont use frag as a spammable either. In fact, frags would probably be stronger on other classes. So wtf are you even talking about.

    Honestly listing the effects of an ability is not a poor argument. Especially when that ability is an ultimate so cheap to the point of almost being used as a spammable and has a million different effects attached to it.

    -Frags is more of a spammable than Soul Harvest
    -Overload is cheaper than Soul Harvest, is ranged, and literally is a spammable (A spammable is something that can be spammed provided you have enough resources for it. )

    Overload is the easiest counterable ult in the entire game and last time i checked it doesnt apply major defile, gives a dmg buff, snare immunity, speed buff and more ult. Whats next? Ask for soul harvest to store ult so you can spam it? Will you be happy then?

    And about frags. Do you actually believe that other classes wouldnt slot frag because they have other spammables? Like seriously?

    Wut... Soul harvest doesn't give snare immunity or speed? Overload is cheaper than Soul harvest so I'd hope it would have some counters. And I don't need it to store ult. And what you say about frags makes literally no sense. I'm stating that what you said is incorrect

    What i said is not incorrect. You just simply didnt read anything so feel free to go all the way back and see how the actual conversation started before telling me that im making no sense. Those are the buffs he suggested for soul harvest including a reduced cost to 50. And on top of that he also suggested even more ridiculous buffs for concealed weapon. As far as frag is concerned he was stating that frag is the spammable of sorcs, he compared it with dizzying swing (lol) and also said that any other class wouldnt want frags because they have other spammables.
  • Subversus
    Subversus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    pieratsos wrote: »
    Hollery wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    It's a true statement.

    Believing in Santa with all my might won't make him anymore real.

    Even if I could slot Incap on my stamsorc, I'd still use DBoS for the DoT in order to proc Implosion.

    On my stamDK, sure it's more of a tossup, but I'd still prefer Leap or DBoS in open world since I can't reset fights in the way stamSorcs or Stamblades can.

    In a 1v1, Incap is the strongest ultimate, but the assassin class should have an edge in 1v1 regardless. Again, the word to keep in mind is "situationally". Incap should be the benchmark class ultimate. DBoS, Incap, Northern Storm, Soul Assault (live) and to a lesser extent; Leap, Meteor, Soul Tether, Destro ultimate, Ballista etc, can completely change the flow of a fight if used correctly. This is what an ultimate should be doing. Majority of Ultimates are simply lacklustre as they are. Incap is fine, other class ultimates need a buff (looking at you templars xD)
    Hollery wrote: »
    I've rarely seen anyone other than a stamblade use DBoS. I like your suggestions to soul harvest but 15% decrease might be a bit to much there

    Sorry I meant stamblade, not nightblades in general. DBoS wouldn't make sense on a magBlade since they don't have strong PvP AoE. It makes sense on a Magplar if you wan't to drop a field of potatos, but thats more about synergy than individual ultimate balance.

    I agree that 15% maybe a bit too much, maybe more along the lines of 8%. Bias of a melee magblade :wink: *Note-I don't main mag blade, I literally play all classes somewhat equally but I "main" sorc (mag and stam).

    pieratsos wrote: »
    So let me get this straight. You want a cheap high dmg spammable with a "viper on steroids" attached to it. And you also want a high dmg ult, that is so cheap to the point where u can use it every other rotation, applies major defile, gives you a 20% dmg buff, gives ult, gives you a speed buff and snare immunity for 5 seconds which means you will be prety much immune to snares all the time. And this is not overpowered according to you.

    Wanna double the dmg of spectral bow too? Or maybe impale having execute dmg from 50% hp?

    So do you think about what you read? Or do you simply nitpick points and pull them out of context to promote your own bias?

    Hrmmm...a viper on steroids? Grab a napkin:

    Viper-6400 tooltip
    Surprise Attack-10,000 tooltip
    Light attack(2h)-6000 tooltip (rounded up from UESP value of 5 pc Hunding, 2 selene, 3 agility)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-22,400
    After Battle Spirit-11,200
    w/o viper-8000

    "viper on steroids"-3,000
    Concealed weapon-10,000
    Light Attack (DW)/(Fire Destro)-1.5k/6k (same as 2h, but with julianos/agility/grothdar)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-14,500/19,000
    After Battle Spirit-7,250/9,500

    As you can see, the whole point of the "viper of steroids" is to make up for the lack of LA weave damage that melee magblades tend to lose out on. On top of that, melee magblades need to be in melee range :open_mouth: which often requires dodge rolling, especially vs a magplar/magdk which means they need to invest more into stamina losing out on something else, usually damage. So realistically, the concealed weapon tooltip should be somewhat lower than surprise attack. ON TOP of that the "viper on steroids" would only proc after the initial weave, meaning even without viper, a stamblade is still more likely to output more damage.

    The combination does output more damage with a fire staff, but again, it requires melee combat which a mag blade would have to build for (i.e. less damage=lower tooltips) and it removes the benefit of ranged combat from using a destro staff. Destro light attacks also tend to have lower damage than 2h because they are meant to be used from range. Check UESP with a blank build. It's around 127 for a fire destro vs 170 for a 2H

    In regards to the ultimate, I agree that the snare immunity could be over the top. It definitely wouldn't be 100% uptime. The snare immunity could be reduced to 2.5 seconds, but then I really see no point in slotting Soul Harvest over Incap if that were the case.

    And LOL at the QQ for the movement speed. It's literally build into the magblade kit regardless, it's just on a different skill now.

    Honestly, listing the effects of an ability is a poor argument. You need to give it context. Take Frags for example. It used to be really strong in the magsorc rotation, but do you really think a stamplar or stamblade would use it over their spammable (assuming frag scaled off stam/WD)? Most likely no because it doesn't work with the kit. It's reasonable to overload certain skills if it suits the class identity. I suggested an ultimate that really does nothing besides give the class more breathing room in a MELEE combat situation, which puts the class at an automatic disadvantage as building tanky does not offer the same benefits for magblades as it does for magDKs/magplars.

    That bs you suggested can proc every second. Its unavoidable dmg every second, in other words "viper on steroids".
    Frag is not a spammable. They would absolutely use it in combination with their spammables. Sorcs dont use frag as a spammable either. In fact, frags would probably be stronger on other classes. So wtf are you even talking about.

    Honestly listing the effects of an ability is not a poor argument. Especially when that ability is an ultimate so cheap to the point of almost being used as a spammable and has a million different effects attached to it.

    -Frags is more of a spammable than Soul Harvest
    -Overload is cheaper than Soul Harvest, is ranged, and literally is a spammable (A spammable is something that can be spammed provided you have enough resources for it. )

    Overload is the easiest counterable ult in the entire game and last time i checked it doesnt apply major defile, gives a dmg buff, snare immunity, speed buff and more ult. Whats next? Ask for soul harvest to store ult so you can spam it? Will you be happy then?

    And about frags. Do you actually believe that other classes wouldnt slot frag because they have other spammables? Like seriously?

    No offense, but from reading what you write it doesn't really seem like you play either magsorc or magblade.

    Again, no offense.
    Edited by Subversus on February 8, 2018 11:02PM
  • IAVITNI
    IAVITNI
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    pieratsos wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    Hollery wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    It's a true statement.

    Believing in Santa with all my might won't make him anymore real.

    Even if I could slot Incap on my stamsorc, I'd still use DBoS for the DoT in order to proc Implosion.

    On my stamDK, sure it's more of a tossup, but I'd still prefer Leap or DBoS in open world since I can't reset fights in the way stamSorcs or Stamblades can.

    In a 1v1, Incap is the strongest ultimate, but the assassin class should have an edge in 1v1 regardless. Again, the word to keep in mind is "situationally". Incap should be the benchmark class ultimate. DBoS, Incap, Northern Storm, Soul Assault (live) and to a lesser extent; Leap, Meteor, Soul Tether, Destro ultimate, Ballista etc, can completely change the flow of a fight if used correctly. This is what an ultimate should be doing. Majority of Ultimates are simply lacklustre as they are. Incap is fine, other class ultimates need a buff (looking at you templars xD)
    Hollery wrote: »
    I've rarely seen anyone other than a stamblade use DBoS. I like your suggestions to soul harvest but 15% decrease might be a bit to much there

    Sorry I meant stamblade, not nightblades in general. DBoS wouldn't make sense on a magBlade since they don't have strong PvP AoE. It makes sense on a Magplar if you wan't to drop a field of potatos, but thats more about synergy than individual ultimate balance.

    I agree that 15% maybe a bit too much, maybe more along the lines of 8%. Bias of a melee magblade :wink: *Note-I don't main mag blade, I literally play all classes somewhat equally but I "main" sorc (mag and stam).

    pieratsos wrote: »
    So let me get this straight. You want a cheap high dmg spammable with a "viper on steroids" attached to it. And you also want a high dmg ult, that is so cheap to the point where u can use it every other rotation, applies major defile, gives you a 20% dmg buff, gives ult, gives you a speed buff and snare immunity for 5 seconds which means you will be prety much immune to snares all the time. And this is not overpowered according to you.

    Wanna double the dmg of spectral bow too? Or maybe impale having execute dmg from 50% hp?

    So do you think about what you read? Or do you simply nitpick points and pull them out of context to promote your own bias?

    Hrmmm...a viper on steroids? Grab a napkin:

    Viper-6400 tooltip
    Surprise Attack-10,000 tooltip
    Light attack(2h)-6000 tooltip (rounded up from UESP value of 5 pc Hunding, 2 selene, 3 agility)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-22,400
    After Battle Spirit-11,200
    w/o viper-8000

    "viper on steroids"-3,000
    Concealed weapon-10,000
    Light Attack (DW)/(Fire Destro)-1.5k/6k (same as 2h, but with julianos/agility/grothdar)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-14,500/19,000
    After Battle Spirit-7,250/9,500

    As you can see, the whole point of the "viper of steroids" is to make up for the lack of LA weave damage that melee magblades tend to lose out on. On top of that, melee magblades need to be in melee range :open_mouth: which often requires dodge rolling, especially vs a magplar/magdk which means they need to invest more into stamina losing out on something else, usually damage. So realistically, the concealed weapon tooltip should be somewhat lower than surprise attack. ON TOP of that the "viper on steroids" would only proc after the initial weave, meaning even without viper, a stamblade is still more likely to output more damage.

    The combination does output more damage with a fire staff, but again, it requires melee combat which a mag blade would have to build for (i.e. less damage=lower tooltips) and it removes the benefit of ranged combat from using a destro staff. Destro light attacks also tend to have lower damage than 2h because they are meant to be used from range. Check UESP with a blank build. It's around 127 for a fire destro vs 170 for a 2H

    In regards to the ultimate, I agree that the snare immunity could be over the top. It definitely wouldn't be 100% uptime. The snare immunity could be reduced to 2.5 seconds, but then I really see no point in slotting Soul Harvest over Incap if that were the case.

    And LOL at the QQ for the movement speed. It's literally build into the magblade kit regardless, it's just on a different skill now.

    Honestly, listing the effects of an ability is a poor argument. You need to give it context. Take Frags for example. It used to be really strong in the magsorc rotation, but do you really think a stamplar or stamblade would use it over their spammable (assuming frag scaled off stam/WD)? Most likely no because it doesn't work with the kit. It's reasonable to overload certain skills if it suits the class identity. I suggested an ultimate that really does nothing besides give the class more breathing room in a MELEE combat situation, which puts the class at an automatic disadvantage as building tanky does not offer the same benefits for magblades as it does for magDKs/magplars.

    That bs you suggested can proc every second. Its unavoidable dmg every second, in other words "viper on steroids".
    Frag is not a spammable. They would absolutely use it in combination with their spammables. Sorcs dont use frag as a spammable either. In fact, frags would probably be stronger on other classes. So wtf are you even talking about.

    Honestly listing the effects of an ability is not a poor argument. Especially when that ability is an ultimate so cheap to the point of almost being used as a spammable and has a million different effects attached to it.

    -Frags is more of a spammable than Soul Harvest
    -Overload is cheaper than Soul Harvest, is ranged, and literally is a spammable (A spammable is something that can be spammed provided you have enough resources for it. )

    Overload is the easiest counterable ult in the entire game and last time i checked it doesnt apply major defile, gives a dmg buff, snare immunity, speed buff and more ult. Whats next? Ask for soul harvest to store ult so you can spam it? Will you be happy then?

    You can only counterplay so many 20k light attacks :trollface: It's certainly more spammable than Soul Harvest.

    That said, it's seldom used offensively not because it's weak or easily countered, but because shifting in and out of Overload is clunky.

    Anyways, you can list the positives of anything and make it sound op. These two abilities are too different to be directly compared in this manner.

    But im not the one who started bringing up sorc abilities. I was just simply stating that the suggestions someone made regarding buffs to soul harvest were completely nuts. I didnt make it sound OP. It is OP. He literally said to reduce the cost to 50, give snare immunity and also give it the passive speed buff of concealed weapon so he can also suggest some stupid buffs for concealed weapon as well like reducing the cost and give it a viper proc on every light attack after concealed.

    Actually, I'm a Mag sorc main, if you read my post you'd know that.

    Yes melee magblades exist but they are not as competitive as a traditional destro. Otherwise, why are they (good magblades) so rare amongst a class that is rare in PvP to begin with (outside bomber specs).

    And how is my suggestion OP? It literally increases the damage of a magicka characters melee light attack to the same level as a stamina characters light attack. Let's change my suggestion to the ability making melee light attacks scale off spell damage and magicka instead. Is that op?

    And Clench/shock etc are Destro spammables, not sorc spammables. The whole point of bringing up frags was that it works well in a sorc kit which is all back-loaded damage, drawing a parallel between incap and night blade which are built around front-loaded damage.

    I can drop +3 people at once with a DBoS on my stamsorc. If I ran Incap it wouldn't be the same. Incap compliments the night blade kit whereas other class ultimates do not compliment their other class abilities.

    Again, you really don't comprehend anything that disproves your bias. Instead of simply stating that a reduction to 50 ultimate alone would be enough to balance Soul Harvest, or that a 2.5 second snare immunity at 75 ultimate cost would be more balanced you simply QQ about a pseudo viper that, again, MATHEMATICALLY puts melee mageblade light attacks at the same level as their stam counterparts.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    "mathematically this or that".

    Magicka light dual wield attack on a blank/naked character with 64 Magicka attribute=111
    Mathematically, this ^ is inferior to that v

    Stamina light dual wield attack on a blank/naked character with 64 Stamina attribute=210
  • IAVITNI
    IAVITNI
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    pieratsos wrote: »

    What i said is not incorrect. You just simply didnt read anything so feel free to go all the way back and see how the actual conversation started before telling me that im making no sense. Those are the buffs he suggested for soul harvest including a reduced cost to 50. And on top of that he also suggested even more ridiculous buffs for concealed weapon. As far as frag is concerned he was stating that frag is the spammable of sorcs, he compared it with dizzying swing (lol) and also said that any other class wouldnt want frags because they have other spammables.


    Hello bias,

    Actually, I said that frag is "technically" the sorc spammable and that if it were to replace another classes spammable, such as jabs, it wouldn't be as effective because it doesn't fit their kit. I never said to actually spam frags. Anywhere.

    I only compared the use of Dizzy Swing as a 2h spammable to show that even if an ability has a channel, it can still be considered a spammable. Sure Dizzy can't be interrupted but it requires the use to be in melee range.
    Edited by IAVITNI on February 8, 2018 11:12PM
  • BohnT
    BohnT
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    Hollery wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    It's a true statement.

    Believing in Santa with all my might won't make him anymore real.

    Even if I could slot Incap on my stamsorc, I'd still use DBoS for the DoT in order to proc Implosion.

    On my stamDK, sure it's more of a tossup, but I'd still prefer Leap or DBoS in open world since I can't reset fights in the way stamSorcs or Stamblades can.

    In a 1v1, Incap is the strongest ultimate, but the assassin class should have an edge in 1v1 regardless. Again, the word to keep in mind is "situationally". Incap should be the benchmark class ultimate. DBoS, Incap, Northern Storm, Soul Assault (live) and to a lesser extent; Leap, Meteor, Soul Tether, Destro ultimate, Ballista etc, can completely change the flow of a fight if used correctly. This is what an ultimate should be doing. Majority of Ultimates are simply lacklustre as they are. Incap is fine, other class ultimates need a buff (looking at you templars xD)
    Hollery wrote: »
    I've rarely seen anyone other than a stamblade use DBoS. I like your suggestions to soul harvest but 15% decrease might be a bit to much there

    Sorry I meant stamblade, not nightblades in general. DBoS wouldn't make sense on a magBlade since they don't have strong PvP AoE. It makes sense on a Magplar if you wan't to drop a field of potatos, but thats more about synergy than individual ultimate balance.

    I agree that 15% maybe a bit too much, maybe more along the lines of 8%. Bias of a melee magblade :wink: *Note-I don't main mag blade, I literally play all classes somewhat equally but I "main" sorc (mag and stam).

    pieratsos wrote: »
    So let me get this straight. You want a cheap high dmg spammable with a "viper on steroids" attached to it. And you also want a high dmg ult, that is so cheap to the point where u can use it every other rotation, applies major defile, gives you a 20% dmg buff, gives ult, gives you a speed buff and snare immunity for 5 seconds which means you will be prety much immune to snares all the time. And this is not overpowered according to you.

    Wanna double the dmg of spectral bow too? Or maybe impale having execute dmg from 50% hp?

    So do you think about what you read? Or do you simply nitpick points and pull them out of context to promote your own bias?

    Hrmmm...a viper on steroids? Grab a napkin:

    Viper-6400 tooltip
    Surprise Attack-10,000 tooltip
    Light attack(2h)-6000 tooltip (rounded up from UESP value of 5 pc Hunding, 2 selene, 3 agility)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-22,400
    After Battle Spirit-11,200
    w/o viper-8000

    "viper on steroids"-3,000
    Concealed weapon-10,000
    Light Attack (DW)/(Fire Destro)-1.5k/6k (same as 2h, but with julianos/agility/grothdar)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-14,500/19,000
    After Battle Spirit-7,250/9,500

    As you can see, the whole point of the "viper of steroids" is to make up for the lack of LA weave damage that melee magblades tend to lose out on. On top of that, melee magblades need to be in melee range :open_mouth: which often requires dodge rolling, especially vs a magplar/magdk which means they need to invest more into stamina losing out on something else, usually damage. So realistically, the concealed weapon tooltip should be somewhat lower than surprise attack. ON TOP of that the "viper on steroids" would only proc after the initial weave, meaning even without viper, a stamblade is still more likely to output more damage.

    The combination does output more damage with a fire staff, but again, it requires melee combat which a mag blade would have to build for (i.e. less damage=lower tooltips) and it removes the benefit of ranged combat from using a destro staff. Destro light attacks also tend to have lower damage than 2h because they are meant to be used from range. Check UESP with a blank build. It's around 127 for a fire destro vs 170 for a 2H

    In regards to the ultimate, I agree that the snare immunity could be over the top. It definitely wouldn't be 100% uptime. The snare immunity could be reduced to 2.5 seconds, but then I really see no point in slotting Soul Harvest over Incap if that were the case.

    And LOL at the QQ for the movement speed. It's literally build into the magblade kit regardless, it's just on a different skill now.

    Honestly, listing the effects of an ability is a poor argument. You need to give it context. Take Frags for example. It used to be really strong in the magsorc rotation, but do you really think a stamplar or stamblade would use it over their spammable (assuming frag scaled off stam/WD)? Most likely no because it doesn't work with the kit. It's reasonable to overload certain skills if it suits the class identity. I suggested an ultimate that really does nothing besides give the class more breathing room in a MELEE combat situation, which puts the class at an automatic disadvantage as building tanky does not offer the same benefits for magblades as it does for magDKs/magplars.

    That bs you suggested can proc every second. Its unavoidable dmg every second, in other words "viper on steroids".
    Frag is not a spammable. They would absolutely use it in combination with their spammables. Sorcs dont use frag as a spammable either. In fact, frags would probably be stronger on other classes. So wtf are you even talking about.

    Honestly listing the effects of an ability is not a poor argument. Especially when that ability is an ultimate so cheap to the point of almost being used as a spammable and has a million different effects attached to it.

    -Frags is more of a spammable than Soul Harvest
    -Overload is cheaper than Soul Harvest, is ranged, and literally is a spammable (A spammable is something that can be spammed provided you have enough resources for it. )

    Overload is the easiest counterable ult in the entire game and last time i checked it doesnt apply major defile, gives a dmg buff, snare immunity, speed buff and more ult. Whats next? Ask for soul harvest to store ult so you can spam it? Will you be happy then?

    You can only counterplay so many 20k light attacks :trollface: It's certainly more spammable than Soul Harvest.

    That said, it's seldom used offensively not because it's weak or easily countered, but because shifting in and out of Overload is clunky.

    Anyways, you can list the positives of anything and make it sound op. These two abilities are too different to be directly compared in this manner.

    But im not the one who started bringing up sorc abilities. I was just simply stating that the suggestions someone made regarding buffs to soul harvest were completely nuts. I didnt make it sound OP. It is OP. He literally said to reduce the cost to 50, give snare immunity and also give it the passive speed buff of concealed weapon so he can also suggest some stupid buffs for concealed weapon as well like reducing the cost and give it a viper proc on every light attack after concealed.

    Actually, I'm a Mag sorc main, if you read my post you'd know that.

    Yes melee magblades exist but they are not as competitive as a traditional destro. Otherwise, why are they (good magblades) so rare amongst a class that is rare in PvP to begin with (outside bomber specs).

    And how is my suggestion OP? It literally increases the damage of a magicka characters melee light attack to the same level as a stamina characters light attack. Let's change my suggestion to the ability making melee light attacks scale off spell damage and magicka instead. Is that op?

    And Clench/shock etc are Destro spammables, not sorc spammables. The whole point of bringing up frags was that it works well in a sorc kit which is all back-loaded damage, drawing a parallel between incap and night blade which are built around front-loaded damage.

    I can drop +3 people at once with a DBoS on my stamsorc. If I ran Incap it wouldn't be the same. Incap compliments the night blade kit whereas other class ultimates do not compliment their other class abilities.

    Again, you really don't comprehend anything that disproves your bias. Instead of simply stating that a reduction to 50 ultimate alone would be enough to balance Soul Harvest, or that a 2.5 second snare immunity at 75 ultimate cost would be more balanced you simply QQ about a pseudo viper that, again, MATHEMATICALLY puts melee mageblade light attacks at the same level as their stam counterparts.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    "mathematically this or that".

    Magicka light dual wield attack on a blank/naked character with 64 Magicka attribute=111
    Mathematically, this ^ is inferior to that v

    Stamina light dual wield attack on a blank/naked character with 64 Stamina attribute=210

    Magnb are by no way rare in PvP, neither are they in need for buffs.
    Meele Magnb is crazy strong and adding good LA weaving to it would make it completely op.
    How do i know that it's strong? I play one for 8 months now and saying it's less viable than ranged nb is simply wrong they perform equally good.


    Soul Harvest is a great ult but it loses when compared to incap because incap is too strong in conjunction with the nb toolkit.
    You are looking at the wrong side for changes. The opportunity cost of soul harvest is just too big when you could also run incap.
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    Subversus wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    Hollery wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    It's a true statement.

    Believing in Santa with all my might won't make him anymore real.

    Even if I could slot Incap on my stamsorc, I'd still use DBoS for the DoT in order to proc Implosion.

    On my stamDK, sure it's more of a tossup, but I'd still prefer Leap or DBoS in open world since I can't reset fights in the way stamSorcs or Stamblades can.

    In a 1v1, Incap is the strongest ultimate, but the assassin class should have an edge in 1v1 regardless. Again, the word to keep in mind is "situationally". Incap should be the benchmark class ultimate. DBoS, Incap, Northern Storm, Soul Assault (live) and to a lesser extent; Leap, Meteor, Soul Tether, Destro ultimate, Ballista etc, can completely change the flow of a fight if used correctly. This is what an ultimate should be doing. Majority of Ultimates are simply lacklustre as they are. Incap is fine, other class ultimates need a buff (looking at you templars xD)
    Hollery wrote: »
    I've rarely seen anyone other than a stamblade use DBoS. I like your suggestions to soul harvest but 15% decrease might be a bit to much there

    Sorry I meant stamblade, not nightblades in general. DBoS wouldn't make sense on a magBlade since they don't have strong PvP AoE. It makes sense on a Magplar if you wan't to drop a field of potatos, but thats more about synergy than individual ultimate balance.

    I agree that 15% maybe a bit too much, maybe more along the lines of 8%. Bias of a melee magblade :wink: *Note-I don't main mag blade, I literally play all classes somewhat equally but I "main" sorc (mag and stam).

    pieratsos wrote: »
    So let me get this straight. You want a cheap high dmg spammable with a "viper on steroids" attached to it. And you also want a high dmg ult, that is so cheap to the point where u can use it every other rotation, applies major defile, gives you a 20% dmg buff, gives ult, gives you a speed buff and snare immunity for 5 seconds which means you will be prety much immune to snares all the time. And this is not overpowered according to you.

    Wanna double the dmg of spectral bow too? Or maybe impale having execute dmg from 50% hp?

    So do you think about what you read? Or do you simply nitpick points and pull them out of context to promote your own bias?

    Hrmmm...a viper on steroids? Grab a napkin:

    Viper-6400 tooltip
    Surprise Attack-10,000 tooltip
    Light attack(2h)-6000 tooltip (rounded up from UESP value of 5 pc Hunding, 2 selene, 3 agility)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-22,400
    After Battle Spirit-11,200
    w/o viper-8000

    "viper on steroids"-3,000
    Concealed weapon-10,000
    Light Attack (DW)/(Fire Destro)-1.5k/6k (same as 2h, but with julianos/agility/grothdar)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-14,500/19,000
    After Battle Spirit-7,250/9,500

    As you can see, the whole point of the "viper of steroids" is to make up for the lack of LA weave damage that melee magblades tend to lose out on. On top of that, melee magblades need to be in melee range :open_mouth: which often requires dodge rolling, especially vs a magplar/magdk which means they need to invest more into stamina losing out on something else, usually damage. So realistically, the concealed weapon tooltip should be somewhat lower than surprise attack. ON TOP of that the "viper on steroids" would only proc after the initial weave, meaning even without viper, a stamblade is still more likely to output more damage.

    The combination does output more damage with a fire staff, but again, it requires melee combat which a mag blade would have to build for (i.e. less damage=lower tooltips) and it removes the benefit of ranged combat from using a destro staff. Destro light attacks also tend to have lower damage than 2h because they are meant to be used from range. Check UESP with a blank build. It's around 127 for a fire destro vs 170 for a 2H

    In regards to the ultimate, I agree that the snare immunity could be over the top. It definitely wouldn't be 100% uptime. The snare immunity could be reduced to 2.5 seconds, but then I really see no point in slotting Soul Harvest over Incap if that were the case.

    And LOL at the QQ for the movement speed. It's literally build into the magblade kit regardless, it's just on a different skill now.

    Honestly, listing the effects of an ability is a poor argument. You need to give it context. Take Frags for example. It used to be really strong in the magsorc rotation, but do you really think a stamplar or stamblade would use it over their spammable (assuming frag scaled off stam/WD)? Most likely no because it doesn't work with the kit. It's reasonable to overload certain skills if it suits the class identity. I suggested an ultimate that really does nothing besides give the class more breathing room in a MELEE combat situation, which puts the class at an automatic disadvantage as building tanky does not offer the same benefits for magblades as it does for magDKs/magplars.

    That bs you suggested can proc every second. Its unavoidable dmg every second, in other words "viper on steroids".
    Frag is not a spammable. They would absolutely use it in combination with their spammables. Sorcs dont use frag as a spammable either. In fact, frags would probably be stronger on other classes. So wtf are you even talking about.

    Honestly listing the effects of an ability is not a poor argument. Especially when that ability is an ultimate so cheap to the point of almost being used as a spammable and has a million different effects attached to it.

    -Frags is more of a spammable than Soul Harvest
    -Overload is cheaper than Soul Harvest, is ranged, and literally is a spammable (A spammable is something that can be spammed provided you have enough resources for it. )

    Overload is the easiest counterable ult in the entire game and last time i checked it doesnt apply major defile, gives a dmg buff, snare immunity, speed buff and more ult. Whats next? Ask for soul harvest to store ult so you can spam it? Will you be happy then?

    And about frags. Do you actually believe that other classes wouldnt slot frag because they have other spammables? Like seriously?

    No offense, but from reading what you write it doesn't really seem like you play either magsorc or magblade.

    Again, no offense.

    Non taken.
    I mean no offense either, but from reading ur post it seems like you are either blind or cant comprehend a simple text.
    IAVITNI wrote: »

    On topic, Soul Harvest could use a lower cost to start off. I don't think an ultimate cost of 50 is overpowered.

    As for secondary effects, move the 25% movement speed from concealed weapon onto it and have it grant snare immunity for 5 seconds after use. This would contrast nicely with incap. One provides offensive utility while the other provides defensive utility. When I play my magblade I seriously consider using a 2h just for momentum, so I'm sure other mag blades will appreciate the snare removal.

    Then for concealed weapon, reduce the cost by about 15% and have it either, increase the effectiveness of weapon enchantments by 50% or place a debuff on the enemy that is consumed on LA/HA and deals ~3k magic damage.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    Take Frags for example. It used to be really strong in the magsorc rotation, but do you really think a stamplar or stamblade would use it over their spammable (assuming frag scaled off stam/WD)?
    IAVITNI wrote: »

    And frag is technically the sorcs spammable, as it is the only skill that can be spammed. (Fury counts as an execute). Dizzy Swing is considered the spammable for 2H and it's channeled too.

    Maybe you should read next time before jumping to conclusions and doubting other people. Even if you didnt catch the conversation from the beginning i literally mentioned those in two different posts before your post.
    Again, no offense

    Edited by pieratsos on February 8, 2018 11:23PM
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    IAVITNI wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »

    What i said is not incorrect. You just simply didnt read anything so feel free to go all the way back and see how the actual conversation started before telling me that im making no sense. Those are the buffs he suggested for soul harvest including a reduced cost to 50. And on top of that he also suggested even more ridiculous buffs for concealed weapon. As far as frag is concerned he was stating that frag is the spammable of sorcs, he compared it with dizzying swing (lol) and also said that any other class wouldnt want frags because they have other spammables.


    Hello bias,

    Actually, I said that frag is "technically" the sorc spammable and that if it were to replace another classes spammable, such as jabs, it wouldn't be as effective because it doesn't fit their kit. I never said to actually spam frags. Anywhere.

    I only compared the use of Dizzy Swing as a 2h spammable to show that even if an ability has a channel, it can still be considered a spammable. Sure Dizzy can't be interrupted but it requires the use to be in melee range.

    What bias and bs are you even talking about? You are literally just making random arguments that make no sense. You are comparing apples with oranges.

    Yes genius it wont replace the spammable of any class because frags is not a damn spammable. There is no "technically" or whatever other term you want to use. Its just not a spammable. Frags doesnt even replace sorc spammable. Sorcs use crushing shock/force pulse/master reach as a spammable. You dont compare jabs or swallow soul or surprise attack or whatever other spammable you want with frags. You compare them with crushing shock cause thats the spammable sorcs use. Frag functions as a burst ability like spectral bow. Not like concealed weapon or swallow soul. So even if you put frags on any other class they would gladly use the ability without dropping their spammable because again frag doesnt function as a spammable. Thats not how the ability is used.

    Thats like saying if you give spectral bow to other classes they wont drop their spammables. It makes zero sense. Yes they wont drop their spammables because thats not what spectral bow does. That doesnt mean they will not use it.

    Stop comparing it to dizzying swing. Just because both have a cast time it doesnt make them comparable.

    I really cant make it more simple for you to understand. Its really not a hard concept to grasp.

    And all of that are still completely irrelevant with the buffs you suggested for soul harvest/concealed and i still have no clue at what you are trying to prove.
    Edited by pieratsos on February 8, 2018 11:47PM
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    ✭✭
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    Hollery wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    It's a true statement.

    Believing in Santa with all my might won't make him anymore real.

    Even if I could slot Incap on my stamsorc, I'd still use DBoS for the DoT in order to proc Implosion.

    On my stamDK, sure it's more of a tossup, but I'd still prefer Leap or DBoS in open world since I can't reset fights in the way stamSorcs or Stamblades can.

    In a 1v1, Incap is the strongest ultimate, but the assassin class should have an edge in 1v1 regardless. Again, the word to keep in mind is "situationally". Incap should be the benchmark class ultimate. DBoS, Incap, Northern Storm, Soul Assault (live) and to a lesser extent; Leap, Meteor, Soul Tether, Destro ultimate, Ballista etc, can completely change the flow of a fight if used correctly. This is what an ultimate should be doing. Majority of Ultimates are simply lacklustre as they are. Incap is fine, other class ultimates need a buff (looking at you templars xD)
    Hollery wrote: »
    I've rarely seen anyone other than a stamblade use DBoS. I like your suggestions to soul harvest but 15% decrease might be a bit to much there

    Sorry I meant stamblade, not nightblades in general. DBoS wouldn't make sense on a magBlade since they don't have strong PvP AoE. It makes sense on a Magplar if you wan't to drop a field of potatos, but thats more about synergy than individual ultimate balance.

    I agree that 15% maybe a bit too much, maybe more along the lines of 8%. Bias of a melee magblade :wink: *Note-I don't main mag blade, I literally play all classes somewhat equally but I "main" sorc (mag and stam).

    pieratsos wrote: »
    So let me get this straight. You want a cheap high dmg spammable with a "viper on steroids" attached to it. And you also want a high dmg ult, that is so cheap to the point where u can use it every other rotation, applies major defile, gives you a 20% dmg buff, gives ult, gives you a speed buff and snare immunity for 5 seconds which means you will be prety much immune to snares all the time. And this is not overpowered according to you.

    Wanna double the dmg of spectral bow too? Or maybe impale having execute dmg from 50% hp?

    So do you think about what you read? Or do you simply nitpick points and pull them out of context to promote your own bias?

    Hrmmm...a viper on steroids? Grab a napkin:

    Viper-6400 tooltip
    Surprise Attack-10,000 tooltip
    Light attack(2h)-6000 tooltip (rounded up from UESP value of 5 pc Hunding, 2 selene, 3 agility)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-22,400
    After Battle Spirit-11,200
    w/o viper-8000

    "viper on steroids"-3,000
    Concealed weapon-10,000
    Light Attack (DW)/(Fire Destro)-1.5k/6k (same as 2h, but with julianos/agility/grothdar)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-14,500/19,000
    After Battle Spirit-7,250/9,500

    As you can see, the whole point of the "viper of steroids" is to make up for the lack of LA weave damage that melee magblades tend to lose out on. On top of that, melee magblades need to be in melee range :open_mouth: which often requires dodge rolling, especially vs a magplar/magdk which means they need to invest more into stamina losing out on something else, usually damage. So realistically, the concealed weapon tooltip should be somewhat lower than surprise attack. ON TOP of that the "viper on steroids" would only proc after the initial weave, meaning even without viper, a stamblade is still more likely to output more damage.

    The combination does output more damage with a fire staff, but again, it requires melee combat which a mag blade would have to build for (i.e. less damage=lower tooltips) and it removes the benefit of ranged combat from using a destro staff. Destro light attacks also tend to have lower damage than 2h because they are meant to be used from range. Check UESP with a blank build. It's around 127 for a fire destro vs 170 for a 2H

    In regards to the ultimate, I agree that the snare immunity could be over the top. It definitely wouldn't be 100% uptime. The snare immunity could be reduced to 2.5 seconds, but then I really see no point in slotting Soul Harvest over Incap if that were the case.

    And LOL at the QQ for the movement speed. It's literally build into the magblade kit regardless, it's just on a different skill now.

    Honestly, listing the effects of an ability is a poor argument. You need to give it context. Take Frags for example. It used to be really strong in the magsorc rotation, but do you really think a stamplar or stamblade would use it over their spammable (assuming frag scaled off stam/WD)? Most likely no because it doesn't work with the kit. It's reasonable to overload certain skills if it suits the class identity. I suggested an ultimate that really does nothing besides give the class more breathing room in a MELEE combat situation, which puts the class at an automatic disadvantage as building tanky does not offer the same benefits for magblades as it does for magDKs/magplars.

    That bs you suggested can proc every second. Its unavoidable dmg every second, in other words "viper on steroids".
    Frag is not a spammable. They would absolutely use it in combination with their spammables. Sorcs dont use frag as a spammable either. In fact, frags would probably be stronger on other classes. So wtf are you even talking about.

    Honestly listing the effects of an ability is not a poor argument. Especially when that ability is an ultimate so cheap to the point of almost being used as a spammable and has a million different effects attached to it.

    -Frags is more of a spammable than Soul Harvest
    -Overload is cheaper than Soul Harvest, is ranged, and literally is a spammable (A spammable is something that can be spammed provided you have enough resources for it. )

    Overload is the easiest counterable ult in the entire game and last time i checked it doesnt apply major defile, gives a dmg buff, snare immunity, speed buff and more ult. Whats next? Ask for soul harvest to store ult so you can spam it? Will you be happy then?

    You can only counterplay so many 20k light attacks :trollface: It's certainly more spammable than Soul Harvest.

    That said, it's seldom used offensively not because it's weak or easily countered, but because shifting in and out of Overload is clunky.

    Anyways, you can list the positives of anything and make it sound op. These two abilities are too different to be directly compared in this manner.

    But im not the one who started bringing up sorc abilities. I was just simply stating that the suggestions someone made regarding buffs to soul harvest were completely nuts. I didnt make it sound OP. It is OP. He literally said to reduce the cost to 50, give snare immunity and also give it the passive speed buff of concealed weapon so he can also suggest some stupid buffs for concealed weapon as well like reducing the cost and give it a viper proc on every light attack after concealed.

    Actually, I'm a Mag sorc main, if you read my post you'd know that.

    Yes melee magblades exist but they are not as competitive as a traditional destro. Otherwise, why are they (good magblades) so rare amongst a class that is rare in PvP to begin with (outside bomber specs).

    And how is my suggestion OP? It literally increases the damage of a magicka characters melee light attack to the same level as a stamina characters light attack. Let's change my suggestion to the ability making melee light attacks scale off spell damage and magicka instead. Is that op?

    And Clench/shock etc are Destro spammables, not sorc spammables. The whole point of bringing up frags was that it works well in a sorc kit which is all back-loaded damage, drawing a parallel between incap and night blade which are built around front-loaded damage.

    I can drop +3 people at once with a DBoS on my stamsorc. If I ran Incap it wouldn't be the same. Incap compliments the night blade kit whereas other class ultimates do not compliment their other class abilities.

    Again, you really don't comprehend anything that disproves your bias. Instead of simply stating that a reduction to 50 ultimate alone would be enough to balance Soul Harvest, or that a 2.5 second snare immunity at 75 ultimate cost would be more balanced you simply QQ about a pseudo viper that, again, MATHEMATICALLY puts melee mageblade light attacks at the same level as their stam counterparts.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    "mathematically this or that".

    Magicka light dual wield attack on a blank/naked character with 64 Magicka attribute=111
    Mathematically, this ^ is inferior to that v

    Stamina light dual wield attack on a blank/naked character with 64 Stamina attribute=210

    DW on magicka builds trade the dmg from weaving for more spell dmg and an extra set piece. In general thats the trade off u are making right now. Its not like you are inherently at a disadvantage just because you use DW.

    Suggesting to make all weapon LA/HA scaling off max stats is a completely different discussion. That wasnt ur suggestion. Your suggestion was 1.5k (PVP) unbuffed unavoidable dmg proc on every single light attack as long as u use concealed. They are two entirely different suggestions that doesnt affect the game in the same way obviously. Your suggestion was basically a dmg mega buff to concealed along with a cost reduction. Not to rework how LA/HA are calculated.
    Edited by pieratsos on February 9, 2018 12:13AM
  • thankyourat
    thankyourat
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    Honestly I prefer soul tether to both incap and soul harvest. If it was a stamina version of soul tether I think it would be better than incap on stamblade in my opinion. The reason I think soul tether is better is that it can be used offensively and defensively and it's undodgeable. It's also very unpredictable. 1vX if you hit multiple people you basically go from zero to full health. the ultimate itself is only about 1000 damage lower than death stroke so the burst is comparable. Honestly how often do you get a 1v1 in cyrodiil. The fact that soul tether is good 1v1 and is much better than soul harvest 1vX makes it a better ultimate in my opinion.
  • IAVITNI
    IAVITNI
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »

    What i said is not incorrect. You just simply didnt read anything so feel free to go all the way back and see how the actual conversation started before telling me that im making no sense. Those are the buffs he suggested for soul harvest including a reduced cost to 50. And on top of that he also suggested even more ridiculous buffs for concealed weapon. As far as frag is concerned he was stating that frag is the spammable of sorcs, he compared it with dizzying swing (lol) and also said that any other class wouldnt want frags because they have other spammables.


    Hello bias,

    Actually, I said that frag is "technically" the sorc spammable and that if it were to replace another classes spammable, such as jabs, it wouldn't be as effective because it doesn't fit their kit. I never said to actually spam frags. Anywhere.

    I only compared the use of Dizzy Swing as a 2h spammable to show that even if an ability has a channel, it can still be considered a spammable. Sure Dizzy can't be interrupted but it requires the use to be in melee range.

    What bias and bs are you even talking about? You are literally just making random arguments that make no sense. You are comparing apples with oranges.

    Yes genius it wont replace the spammable of any class because frags is not a damn spammable. There is no "technically" or whatever other term you want to use. Its just not a spammable. Frags doesnt even replace sorc spammable. Sorcs use crushing shock/force pulse/master reach as a spammable. You dont compare jabs or swallow soul or surprise attack or whatever other spammable you want with frags. You compare them with crushing shock cause thats the spammable sorcs use. Frag functions as a burst ability like spectral bow. Not like concealed weapon or swallow soul. So even if you put frags on any other class they would gladly use the ability without dropping their spammable because again frag doesnt function as a spammable. Thats not how the ability is used.

    Thats like saying if you give spectral bow to other classes they wont drop their spammables. It makes zero sense. Yes they wont drop their spammables because thats not what spectral bow does. That doesnt mean they will not use it.

    Stop comparing it to dizzying swing. Just because both have a cast time it doesnt make them comparable.

    I really cant make it more simple for you to understand. Its really not a hard concept to grasp.

    And all of that are still completely irrelevant with the buffs you suggested for soul harvest/concealed and i still have no clue at what you are trying to prove.

    Fine, I'll replace the word "technically" with the term "closest to". The whole reason sorcs aren't given a class spammable is because the class is designed around back loaded burst. If they were given an actual class spammable along the same power level as Surprise Attack their base kit would be far too strong.

    I'm discussing class/skill line philosophy whereas you become fixated on the mechanics of the skills themselves. Hence, why Dizzy Swing is comparable to Frags. Both the innate sorc kit and 2h skill lines have their damage designed more around burst and therefore have no true spammable, for the same reasons that the dual wield skill line lacks burst.

    The concepts of front-loaded/back-loaded/constant damage is why I don't think Incap is op/should be nerfed down to Soul Harvest, because it provides front-loaded burst/cc to a class that is designed around front-loaded burst. No other class ultimate works as well with the rest of the class kit as Incap does, and I think that's the problem, not Incap itself.
    pieratsos wrote: »

    DW on magicka builds trade the dmg from weaving for more spell dmg and an extra set piece. In general thats the trade off u are making right now. Its not like you are inherently at a disadvantage just because you use DW.

    Suggesting to make all weapon LA/HA scaling off max stats is a completely different discussion. That wasnt ur suggestion. Your suggestion was 1.5k (PVP) unbuffed unavoidable dmg proc on every single light attack as long as u use concealed. They are two entirely different suggestions that doesnt affect the game in the same way obviously. Your suggestion was basically a dmg mega buff to concealed along with a cost reduction. Not to rework how LA/HA are calculated.

    See if you started with this, we wouldn't have wasted paragraphs. Instead you focused on other parts of my post, interpreted the meaning behind them in the most literal sense because it suited your argument and talked about how "their is no mathematically this or that" in a game where 1.5k damage is apparently game breaking. Yet you don't even acknowledge that magicka characters deal less damage than stamina characters because it would prove that you overlooked that part of the argument, which ironically was the argument. So yes I do think you are biased. And for reference:
    IAVITNI wrote: »

    As you can see, the whole point of the "viper of steroids" is to make up for the lack of LA weave damage that melee magblades tend to lose out on. On top of that, melee magblades need to be in melee range :open_mouth: which often requires dodge rolling, especially vs a magplar/magdk which means they need to invest more into stamina losing out on something else, usually damage. So realistically, the concealed weapon tooltip should be somewhat lower than surprise attack. ON TOP of that the "viper on steroids" would only proc after the initial weave, meaning even without viper, a stamblade is still more likely to output more damage.

    Literally all I was trying to do with my suggestion, but you decided to fly with everything else and completely ignore the fact that I even pulled numbers from UESP to show that all my suggestion did was put magicka and stam melee light attacks within the same vicinity. I omitted the math on that part because apparently math doesn't exist? Literally would have very similar results as if all light attacks were to scale of highest stats.

    Actually, no your kind of right since the numbers would be slightly different. In real combat the total output would be less because it's a debuff that requires a skill slotted and perfect weaving to use. If my opponent dodges concealed weapon than guess what, viper on steroids doesn't do anything. If my opponent dodges the light attack, the debuff would drop off (I admit I should have added that duration be around 0.5-1 seconds) and the extra effect would be wasted.

    Compare that to Surprise Attacks Major Breach or Jabs heal/Major Savagery. These skills get a guaranteed bonus whereas my suggestion would be conditional.
  • IAVITNI
    IAVITNI
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    BohnT wrote: »

    Magnb are by no way rare in PvP, neither are they in need for buffs.
    Meele Magnb is crazy strong and adding good LA weaving to it would make it completely op.
    How do i know that it's strong? I play one for 8 months now and saying it's less viable than ranged nb is simply wrong they perform equally good.


    Soul Harvest is a great ult but it loses when compared to incap because incap is too strong in conjunction with the nb toolkit.
    You are looking at the wrong side for changes. The opportunity cost of soul harvest is just too big when you could also run incap.

    Oh man, could we just @ each other next time? Convo is ridiculous long xD

    Never said magnb were rare, just the really good ones (open world, I hate dueling mnb). I do play on console and the meta is slightly different from PC so this may be why we have different experiences with magnb. I know most small scale/solo tend to stay away from it open world due to Shadow Image being borderline broken (at least on console). And majority of mnb i run into do nothing but cloak every other ability and run when the fight turns into a 1v2 (in their favour) or less.

    Damage and mitigation wise I'd agree that melee is competitive with ranged nb, but overall survivability tends to drop significantly as a melee mnb in open world with all the snares going around. Ofc I am conscientious of how buggy Shadow Image is on console and it affects the way I play. For instance, if I get knocked down an elevation or I realize my image is in a potentially buggy place I won't take the risk and then need to rely solely on roll dodge and cloak as opposed to my preplanned image juke. I may actually run away from my intended LoS/Image depending on the situation.

    I'd say Soul Harvest is a decent ult not a great one, or will be knocked down to decent after patch. I agree that Incap could be toned down slightly but I still think other ultimates are lacking in comparison. I look at incap the same way I look at post-useless frags, it does do a little to much, but only a little. Consider how damaging the CC removal on frags was. For frags, the cc removal makes sense because Sorc kit is built around back-loaded damage, so you should have to set up your heavy hitter. It's the opposite for front-loaded (stam) night blades.

    TL:DR
    Tune Incap downwards slightly and than balance Soul Harvest around it.

    The AoE suggestion seems like a solid change
  • Feanor
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    For frags, the cc removal makes sense because Sorc kit is built around back-loaded damage, so you should have to set up your heavy hitter.

    If the damage had not been reduced twice already and the projectile wasn’t one of the easiest to dodge in the whole game you might have had a point.
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar
    All chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • pieratsos
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    IAVITNI wrote: »

    Fine, I'll replace the word "technically" with the term "closest to". The whole reason sorcs aren't given a class spammable is because the class is designed around back loaded burst. If they were given an actual class spammable along the same power level as Surprise Attack their base kit would be far too strong.

    I'm discussing class/skill line philosophy whereas you become fixated on the mechanics of the skills themselves. Hence, why Dizzy Swing is comparable to Frags. Both the innate sorc kit and 2h skill lines have their damage designed more around burst and therefore have no true spammable, for the same reasons that the dual wield skill line lacks burst.

    The concepts of front-loaded/back-loaded/constant damage is why I don't think Incap is op/should be nerfed down to Soul Harvest, because it provides front-loaded burst/cc to a class that is designed around front-loaded burst. No other class ultimate works as well with the rest of the class kit as Incap does, and I think that's the problem, not Incap itself.

    I know that sorc dont have an actual class spammable and i know how the class is designed. I was just simply saying that ur statement was wrong. Just because frag is the "closest" to a sorc spammable it doesnt mean that you can compare it with actual spammables. Thats not how it actually functions. Therefore your statement about other classes not dropping their spammables for frags makes absolutely no sense. Yes they wouldnt drop their spammables for it but they would gladly use frags as a burst ability. Why wouldnt they?

    The mechanics of the skills themselves is what determines the philosophy behind the skill. I cant compare dizzying with frags because the mechanics sets them apart and make them being used very differently. Dizzying can be used as a spammable. Frags cant primarily because you are vulnerable to interrupts. Frags can be compared to dark flare cause it has similar functions. That skill also cant be used as a spammable and its only used for burst or on gank builds. So basically like frags.

    Whether soul harvest should be buffed to incap or incap nerfed to soul harvest is another discussion. I dont think incap is super OP by itself. I believe incap seems OP because of how it fits with the class (nothing u can do about that), because of the stupid CP befoul that basically guts ur healing entirely after incap and because the cc is buggy. That being said i do think that it needs adjustments. My opinion is to "nerf" incap to soul harvest level by removing the cc and give it another utility sort of like soul harvest. So its not even a flat out nerf. You are just replacing one effect with a different one Or maybe give it the old cc back when it was applying a cc only when u had lower hp than ur opponent. What i was saying is that ur suggestions for soul harvest are not "an additional effect" like the title says to put it on par with incap. You just flat out buffed the ability to the sky. And you paired that with even more buffs elsewhere on a class that is already balanced. In fact magblade is the only class that is balanced. Every other class has numerous issues.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    See if you started with this, we wouldn't have wasted paragraphs. Instead you focused on other parts of my post, interpreted the meaning behind them in the most literal sense because it suited your argument and talked about how "their is no mathematically this or that" in a game where 1.5k damage is apparently game breaking. Yet you don't even acknowledge that magicka characters deal less damage than stamina characters because it would prove that you overlooked that part of the argument, which ironically was the argument. So yes I do think you are biased.

    I couldnt start with that cause in ur initial statement you never mentioned other classes and that ur goal was to rework LA/HA and how they are calculated. Your suggestion was just a flat out mega dmg buff to concealed weapon. And i didnt acknoweledge the part about magicka characters dealing less dmg than stamina cause im not doing PVE and im not qualified to speak about that. But as far as i know magicka build have better survivability, range, AOE and utility in PVE and stamina has more single target dmg. That sounds balanced to me. And i say PVE cause thats the part of the game where weaving makes the most difference and DW magicka builds are not viable with the exception of templars. If your speaking about PVP then it makes no sense. Like i said you are giving up weaving dmg for more raw stats and a more bursty build. That also sounds balanced to me.

    And stop calling me biased. Biased means having personal feelings clouding my judgment and therefore judging magblade unfairly. This is simply not true. Even magblades dont agree with you. If anything ur comments were showing bias cause you suggested a change that only makes magblades have high dmg with DW LA/HA that puts them on par with stamina builds.
    IAVITNI wrote: »

    Literally all I was trying to do with my suggestion, but you decided to fly with everything else and completely ignore the fact that I even pulled numbers from UESP to show that all my suggestion did was put magicka and stam melee light attacks within the same vicinity. I omitted the math on that part because apparently math doesn't exist? Literally would have very similar results as if all light attacks were to scale of highest stats.

    Actually, no your kind of right since the numbers would be slightly different. In real combat the total output would be less because it's a debuff that requires a skill slotted and perfect weaving to use. If my opponent dodges concealed weapon than guess what, viper on steroids doesn't do anything. If my opponent dodges the light attack, the debuff would drop off (I admit I should have added that duration be around 0.5-1 seconds) and the extra effect would be wasted.

    Compare that to Surprise Attacks Major Breach or Jabs heal/Major Savagery. These skills get a guaranteed bonus whereas my suggestion would be conditional.

    Again, i responded in that way cause ur suggestion wasnt an overall rework of LA/HA and how they are calculated. It was simply a dmg mega buff to a magblade ability. They are two completely different suggestions.

    Compare it with major fracture and major savagery? You do realise that you can get those buffs as a magblade right(the magicka equivalents) ? Im not even sure if you actually comprehend the actual power of ur suggestion. 1.5k unbuffed in PVP means a 3k unbuffed tooltip. Your suggestion was basically to increase the power of concealed weapon by a minimum of 3k extra dmg which would automatically make it the hardest hitting spammable in the game by miles.

    But if ur goal was simply to add another utility to concealed and make it on par with surprise attack for example (after u removed the speed buff) why didnt you suggest something like adding major breach to it?
    Edited by pieratsos on February 9, 2018 11:48AM
  • Master_Kas
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    Incap is another dumbed down ability. It used to stun if you had lower HP than your target meaning when you needed it. Was way more balanced than the mess it is today.

    Soul harvest is fine imo. Incap should not have a stun or revert it to the way it was.
    EU | PC
  • BohnT
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    Master_Kas wrote: »
    Incap is another dumbed down ability. It used to stun if you had lower HP than your target meaning when you needed it. Was way more balanced than the mess it is today.

    Soul harvest is fine imo. Incap should not have a stun or revert it to the way it was.

    Listen to Kas, someone with so many received hate whispers can't be wrong :D
  • JobooAGS
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    Master_Kas wrote: »
    Incap is another dumbed down ability. It used to stun if you had lower HP than your target meaning when you needed it. Was way more balanced than the mess it is today.

    Soul harvest is fine imo. Incap should not have a stun or revert it to the way it was.

    If incap loses the stun, then it should be given something to compensate ir more time on damage debuff otherwise why choose incap when soul harvest gives ult on kill? Better yet to have incap stun based on %hp
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Master_Kas wrote: »
    Incap is another dumbed down ability. It used to stun if you had lower HP than your target meaning when you needed it. Was way more balanced than the mess it is today.

    Soul harvest is fine imo. Incap should not have a stun or revert it to the way it was.

    If incap loses the stun, then it should be given something to compensate ir more time on damage debuff otherwise why choose incap when soul harvest gives ult on kill? Better yet to have incap stun based on %hp

    I'll trade you my empowering sweep for an Incap that doesn't stun.
  • Subversus
    Subversus
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    Subversus wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    Hollery wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    It's a true statement.

    Believing in Santa with all my might won't make him anymore real.

    Even if I could slot Incap on my stamsorc, I'd still use DBoS for the DoT in order to proc Implosion.

    On my stamDK, sure it's more of a tossup, but I'd still prefer Leap or DBoS in open world since I can't reset fights in the way stamSorcs or Stamblades can.

    In a 1v1, Incap is the strongest ultimate, but the assassin class should have an edge in 1v1 regardless. Again, the word to keep in mind is "situationally". Incap should be the benchmark class ultimate. DBoS, Incap, Northern Storm, Soul Assault (live) and to a lesser extent; Leap, Meteor, Soul Tether, Destro ultimate, Ballista etc, can completely change the flow of a fight if used correctly. This is what an ultimate should be doing. Majority of Ultimates are simply lacklustre as they are. Incap is fine, other class ultimates need a buff (looking at you templars xD)
    Hollery wrote: »
    I've rarely seen anyone other than a stamblade use DBoS. I like your suggestions to soul harvest but 15% decrease might be a bit to much there

    Sorry I meant stamblade, not nightblades in general. DBoS wouldn't make sense on a magBlade since they don't have strong PvP AoE. It makes sense on a Magplar if you wan't to drop a field of potatos, but thats more about synergy than individual ultimate balance.

    I agree that 15% maybe a bit too much, maybe more along the lines of 8%. Bias of a melee magblade :wink: *Note-I don't main mag blade, I literally play all classes somewhat equally but I "main" sorc (mag and stam).

    pieratsos wrote: »
    So let me get this straight. You want a cheap high dmg spammable with a "viper on steroids" attached to it. And you also want a high dmg ult, that is so cheap to the point where u can use it every other rotation, applies major defile, gives you a 20% dmg buff, gives ult, gives you a speed buff and snare immunity for 5 seconds which means you will be prety much immune to snares all the time. And this is not overpowered according to you.

    Wanna double the dmg of spectral bow too? Or maybe impale having execute dmg from 50% hp?

    So do you think about what you read? Or do you simply nitpick points and pull them out of context to promote your own bias?

    Hrmmm...a viper on steroids? Grab a napkin:

    Viper-6400 tooltip
    Surprise Attack-10,000 tooltip
    Light attack(2h)-6000 tooltip (rounded up from UESP value of 5 pc Hunding, 2 selene, 3 agility)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-22,400
    After Battle Spirit-11,200
    w/o viper-8000

    "viper on steroids"-3,000
    Concealed weapon-10,000
    Light Attack (DW)/(Fire Destro)-1.5k/6k (same as 2h, but with julianos/agility/grothdar)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-14,500/19,000
    After Battle Spirit-7,250/9,500

    As you can see, the whole point of the "viper of steroids" is to make up for the lack of LA weave damage that melee magblades tend to lose out on. On top of that, melee magblades need to be in melee range :open_mouth: which often requires dodge rolling, especially vs a magplar/magdk which means they need to invest more into stamina losing out on something else, usually damage. So realistically, the concealed weapon tooltip should be somewhat lower than surprise attack. ON TOP of that the "viper on steroids" would only proc after the initial weave, meaning even without viper, a stamblade is still more likely to output more damage.

    The combination does output more damage with a fire staff, but again, it requires melee combat which a mag blade would have to build for (i.e. less damage=lower tooltips) and it removes the benefit of ranged combat from using a destro staff. Destro light attacks also tend to have lower damage than 2h because they are meant to be used from range. Check UESP with a blank build. It's around 127 for a fire destro vs 170 for a 2H

    In regards to the ultimate, I agree that the snare immunity could be over the top. It definitely wouldn't be 100% uptime. The snare immunity could be reduced to 2.5 seconds, but then I really see no point in slotting Soul Harvest over Incap if that were the case.

    And LOL at the QQ for the movement speed. It's literally build into the magblade kit regardless, it's just on a different skill now.

    Honestly, listing the effects of an ability is a poor argument. You need to give it context. Take Frags for example. It used to be really strong in the magsorc rotation, but do you really think a stamplar or stamblade would use it over their spammable (assuming frag scaled off stam/WD)? Most likely no because it doesn't work with the kit. It's reasonable to overload certain skills if it suits the class identity. I suggested an ultimate that really does nothing besides give the class more breathing room in a MELEE combat situation, which puts the class at an automatic disadvantage as building tanky does not offer the same benefits for magblades as it does for magDKs/magplars.

    That bs you suggested can proc every second. Its unavoidable dmg every second, in other words "viper on steroids".
    Frag is not a spammable. They would absolutely use it in combination with their spammables. Sorcs dont use frag as a spammable either. In fact, frags would probably be stronger on other classes. So wtf are you even talking about.

    Honestly listing the effects of an ability is not a poor argument. Especially when that ability is an ultimate so cheap to the point of almost being used as a spammable and has a million different effects attached to it.

    -Frags is more of a spammable than Soul Harvest
    -Overload is cheaper than Soul Harvest, is ranged, and literally is a spammable (A spammable is something that can be spammed provided you have enough resources for it. )

    Overload is the easiest counterable ult in the entire game and last time i checked it doesnt apply major defile, gives a dmg buff, snare immunity, speed buff and more ult. Whats next? Ask for soul harvest to store ult so you can spam it? Will you be happy then?

    And about frags. Do you actually believe that other classes wouldnt slot frag because they have other spammables? Like seriously?

    No offense, but from reading what you write it doesn't really seem like you play either magsorc or magblade.

    Again, no offense.

    Non taken.
    I mean no offense either, but from reading ur post it seems like you are either blind or cant comprehend a simple text.
    IAVITNI wrote: »

    On topic, Soul Harvest could use a lower cost to start off. I don't think an ultimate cost of 50 is overpowered.

    As for secondary effects, move the 25% movement speed from concealed weapon onto it and have it grant snare immunity for 5 seconds after use. This would contrast nicely with incap. One provides offensive utility while the other provides defensive utility. When I play my magblade I seriously consider using a 2h just for momentum, so I'm sure other mag blades will appreciate the snare removal.

    Then for concealed weapon, reduce the cost by about 15% and have it either, increase the effectiveness of weapon enchantments by 50% or place a debuff on the enemy that is consumed on LA/HA and deals ~3k magic damage.
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    Take Frags for example. It used to be really strong in the magsorc rotation, but do you really think a stamplar or stamblade would use it over their spammable (assuming frag scaled off stam/WD)?
    IAVITNI wrote: »

    And frag is technically the sorcs spammable, as it is the only skill that can be spammed. (Fury counts as an execute). Dizzy Swing is considered the spammable for 2H and it's channeled too.

    Maybe you should read next time before jumping to conclusions and doubting other people. Even if you didnt catch the conversation from the beginning i literally mentioned those in two different posts before your post.
    Again, no offense

    I haven't read a single thing you posted past your first two or three posts in here, so reading comprehension can't really help me here. My opinion is already formed and I could care less about the "nightblade op pls nerf" ***.
  • JobooAGS
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Master_Kas wrote: »
    Incap is another dumbed down ability. It used to stun if you had lower HP than your target meaning when you needed it. Was way more balanced than the mess it is today.

    Soul harvest is fine imo. Incap should not have a stun or revert it to the way it was.

    If incap loses the stun, then it should be given something to compensate ir more time on damage debuff otherwise why choose incap when soul harvest gives ult on kill? Better yet to have incap stun based on %hp

    I'll trade you my empowering sweep for an Incap that doesn't stun.

    Why does that matter? No one would use incap over soul harvest if the stun is completely removed without compensation. Sure you lose a bit of damage due to cp, but you get 10 ult on kill passively which more than makes up for it.
  • Subversus
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Master_Kas wrote: »
    Incap is another dumbed down ability. It used to stun if you had lower HP than your target meaning when you needed it. Was way more balanced than the mess it is today.

    Soul harvest is fine imo. Incap should not have a stun or revert it to the way it was.

    If incap loses the stun, then it should be given something to compensate ir more time on damage debuff otherwise why choose incap when soul harvest gives ult on kill? Better yet to have incap stun based on %hp

    I'll trade you my empowering sweep for an Incap that doesn't stun.

    Why does that matter? No one would use incap over soul harvest if the stun is completely removed without compensation. Sure you lose a bit of damage due to cp, but you get 10 ult on kill passively which more than makes up for it.

    Not to mention that incap mostly "works" cause of the nightblade toolkit. I'd much rather have a magicka leap than soul harvest if you wanna make it about what ultimate we'd rather have.
  • Joy_Division
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Master_Kas wrote: »
    Incap is another dumbed down ability. It used to stun if you had lower HP than your target meaning when you needed it. Was way more balanced than the mess it is today.

    Soul harvest is fine imo. Incap should not have a stun or revert it to the way it was.

    If incap loses the stun, then it should be given something to compensate ir more time on damage debuff otherwise why choose incap when soul harvest gives ult on kill? Better yet to have incap stun based on %hp

    I'll trade you my empowering sweep for an Incap that doesn't stun.

    Why does that matter? No one would use incap over soul harvest if the stun is completely removed without compensation. Sure you lose a bit of damage due to cp, but you get 10 ult on kill passively which more than makes up for it.

    Must be nice to have a choice between good ultimates.
  • BohnT
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Master_Kas wrote: »
    Incap is another dumbed down ability. It used to stun if you had lower HP than your target meaning when you needed it. Was way more balanced than the mess it is today.

    Soul harvest is fine imo. Incap should not have a stun or revert it to the way it was.

    If incap loses the stun, then it should be given something to compensate ir more time on damage debuff otherwise why choose incap when soul harvest gives ult on kill? Better yet to have incap stun based on %hp

    I'll trade you my empowering sweep for an Incap that doesn't stun.

    Why does that matter? No one would use incap over soul harvest if the stun is completely removed without compensation. Sure you lose a bit of damage due to cp, but you get 10 ult on kill passively which more than makes up for it.

    Must be nice to have a choice between good ultimates.

    Especially 4 different kind of useful ults:
    Single target nuke, AoE Nuke, strongest burst heal AoE, best damage mitigation AoE ult attached with the second strongest HoT as synergy

    It's ironic that the classes with the already best toolkit want even more sweeties

  • NyassaV
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    BohnT wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    Hollery wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    It's a true statement.

    Believing in Santa with all my might won't make him anymore real.

    Even if I could slot Incap on my stamsorc, I'd still use DBoS for the DoT in order to proc Implosion.

    On my stamDK, sure it's more of a tossup, but I'd still prefer Leap or DBoS in open world since I can't reset fights in the way stamSorcs or Stamblades can.

    In a 1v1, Incap is the strongest ultimate, but the assassin class should have an edge in 1v1 regardless. Again, the word to keep in mind is "situationally". Incap should be the benchmark class ultimate. DBoS, Incap, Northern Storm, Soul Assault (live) and to a lesser extent; Leap, Meteor, Soul Tether, Destro ultimate, Ballista etc, can completely change the flow of a fight if used correctly. This is what an ultimate should be doing. Majority of Ultimates are simply lacklustre as they are. Incap is fine, other class ultimates need a buff (looking at you templars xD)
    Hollery wrote: »
    I've rarely seen anyone other than a stamblade use DBoS. I like your suggestions to soul harvest but 15% decrease might be a bit to much there

    Sorry I meant stamblade, not nightblades in general. DBoS wouldn't make sense on a magBlade since they don't have strong PvP AoE. It makes sense on a Magplar if you wan't to drop a field of potatos, but thats more about synergy than individual ultimate balance.

    I agree that 15% maybe a bit too much, maybe more along the lines of 8%. Bias of a melee magblade :wink: *Note-I don't main mag blade, I literally play all classes somewhat equally but I "main" sorc (mag and stam).

    pieratsos wrote: »
    So let me get this straight. You want a cheap high dmg spammable with a "viper on steroids" attached to it. And you also want a high dmg ult, that is so cheap to the point where u can use it every other rotation, applies major defile, gives you a 20% dmg buff, gives ult, gives you a speed buff and snare immunity for 5 seconds which means you will be prety much immune to snares all the time. And this is not overpowered according to you.

    Wanna double the dmg of spectral bow too? Or maybe impale having execute dmg from 50% hp?

    So do you think about what you read? Or do you simply nitpick points and pull them out of context to promote your own bias?

    Hrmmm...a viper on steroids? Grab a napkin:

    Viper-6400 tooltip
    Surprise Attack-10,000 tooltip
    Light attack(2h)-6000 tooltip (rounded up from UESP value of 5 pc Hunding, 2 selene, 3 agility)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-22,400
    After Battle Spirit-11,200
    w/o viper-8000

    "viper on steroids"-3,000
    Concealed weapon-10,000
    Light Attack (DW)/(Fire Destro)-1.5k/6k (same as 2h, but with julianos/agility/grothdar)
    ______________________
    Total Damage-14,500/19,000
    After Battle Spirit-7,250/9,500

    As you can see, the whole point of the "viper of steroids" is to make up for the lack of LA weave damage that melee magblades tend to lose out on. On top of that, melee magblades need to be in melee range :open_mouth: which often requires dodge rolling, especially vs a magplar/magdk which means they need to invest more into stamina losing out on something else, usually damage. So realistically, the concealed weapon tooltip should be somewhat lower than surprise attack. ON TOP of that the "viper on steroids" would only proc after the initial weave, meaning even without viper, a stamblade is still more likely to output more damage.

    The combination does output more damage with a fire staff, but again, it requires melee combat which a mag blade would have to build for (i.e. less damage=lower tooltips) and it removes the benefit of ranged combat from using a destro staff. Destro light attacks also tend to have lower damage than 2h because they are meant to be used from range. Check UESP with a blank build. It's around 127 for a fire destro vs 170 for a 2H

    In regards to the ultimate, I agree that the snare immunity could be over the top. It definitely wouldn't be 100% uptime. The snare immunity could be reduced to 2.5 seconds, but then I really see no point in slotting Soul Harvest over Incap if that were the case.

    And LOL at the QQ for the movement speed. It's literally build into the magblade kit regardless, it's just on a different skill now.

    Honestly, listing the effects of an ability is a poor argument. You need to give it context. Take Frags for example. It used to be really strong in the magsorc rotation, but do you really think a stamplar or stamblade would use it over their spammable (assuming frag scaled off stam/WD)? Most likely no because it doesn't work with the kit. It's reasonable to overload certain skills if it suits the class identity. I suggested an ultimate that really does nothing besides give the class more breathing room in a MELEE combat situation, which puts the class at an automatic disadvantage as building tanky does not offer the same benefits for magblades as it does for magDKs/magplars.

    That bs you suggested can proc every second. Its unavoidable dmg every second, in other words "viper on steroids".
    Frag is not a spammable. They would absolutely use it in combination with their spammables. Sorcs dont use frag as a spammable either. In fact, frags would probably be stronger on other classes. So wtf are you even talking about.

    Honestly listing the effects of an ability is not a poor argument. Especially when that ability is an ultimate so cheap to the point of almost being used as a spammable and has a million different effects attached to it.

    -Frags is more of a spammable than Soul Harvest
    -Overload is cheaper than Soul Harvest, is ranged, and literally is a spammable (A spammable is something that can be spammed provided you have enough resources for it. )

    Overload is the easiest counterable ult in the entire game and last time i checked it doesnt apply major defile, gives a dmg buff, snare immunity, speed buff and more ult. Whats next? Ask for soul harvest to store ult so you can spam it? Will you be happy then?

    You can only counterplay so many 20k light attacks :trollface: It's certainly more spammable than Soul Harvest.

    That said, it's seldom used offensively not because it's weak or easily countered, but because shifting in and out of Overload is clunky.

    Anyways, you can list the positives of anything and make it sound op. These two abilities are too different to be directly compared in this manner.

    But im not the one who started bringing up sorc abilities. I was just simply stating that the suggestions someone made regarding buffs to soul harvest were completely nuts. I didnt make it sound OP. It is OP. He literally said to reduce the cost to 50, give snare immunity and also give it the passive speed buff of concealed weapon so he can also suggest some stupid buffs for concealed weapon as well like reducing the cost and give it a viper proc on every light attack after concealed.

    Actually, I'm a Mag sorc main, if you read my post you'd know that.

    Yes melee magblades exist but they are not as competitive as a traditional destro. Otherwise, why are they (good magblades) so rare amongst a class that is rare in PvP to begin with (outside bomber specs).

    And how is my suggestion OP? It literally increases the damage of a magicka characters melee light attack to the same level as a stamina characters light attack. Let's change my suggestion to the ability making melee light attacks scale off spell damage and magicka instead. Is that op?

    And Clench/shock etc are Destro spammables, not sorc spammables. The whole point of bringing up frags was that it works well in a sorc kit which is all back-loaded damage, drawing a parallel between incap and night blade which are built around front-loaded damage.

    I can drop +3 people at once with a DBoS on my stamsorc. If I ran Incap it wouldn't be the same. Incap compliments the night blade kit whereas other class ultimates do not compliment their other class abilities.

    Again, you really don't comprehend anything that disproves your bias. Instead of simply stating that a reduction to 50 ultimate alone would be enough to balance Soul Harvest, or that a 2.5 second snare immunity at 75 ultimate cost would be more balanced you simply QQ about a pseudo viper that, again, MATHEMATICALLY puts melee mageblade light attacks at the same level as their stam counterparts.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    "mathematically this or that".

    Magicka light dual wield attack on a blank/naked character with 64 Magicka attribute=111
    Mathematically, this ^ is inferior to that v

    Stamina light dual wield attack on a blank/naked character with 64 Stamina attribute=210

    Magnb are by no way rare in PvP, neither are they in need for buffs.
    Meele Magnb is crazy strong and adding good LA weaving to it would make it completely op.
    How do i know that it's strong? I play one for 8 months now and saying it's less viable than ranged nb is simply wrong they perform equally good.


    Soul Harvest is a great ult but it loses when compared to incap because incap is too strong in conjunction with the nb toolkit.
    You are looking at the wrong side for changes. The opportunity cost of soul harvest is just too big when you could also run incap.

    It's less viable... Sorry. It's still very strong but it is very much so weaker than a double stick build
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