** Major Combat Flaw - Animation Canceling/Damage Stacking - Devs Please Look Here **

Kyotee0071

wraith808 wrote: »

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

@wraith808

I made no comments about "hyperbole" of any kind in any of my post. Maybe you read a quote from someone else in a post of mine using the term. I'd suggest you take another look at whatever post you are referring to.

None the less he (Kutsuu) was commenting on this very topic. That was my point, you made it sound like I was putting things out of context in this post (to me), and I was just pointing out that the quote was directly from Kutsuu.

No offense intended.

*sigh*

Look up what hyperbole means. It was in reference to your needlessly negative comment. Nevermind... I don't come to this forum enough to engage in such conversations, and it doesn't notify me of posts... so carry on. I'm done.

Looked up:



Still not seeing the relevance.

Sorry

Soliduparrow

The PTS patch notes said they fixed some animation clipping issues. Is this what they fixed?

Anyone have actual numbers on the shield bash nerf from the PTS?

Jade1986

mcconnell2_ESO wrote: »

The PTS patch notes said they fixed some animation clipping issues. Is this what they fixed?

Anyone have actual numbers on the shield bash nerf from the PTS?

Here is hoping, because this game is supposed to require reflexes and responses in pvp, and how the hell are you supposed to respond to something that doesn't happen?!

Kyotee0071

laced wrote: »

Here is hoping, because this game is supposed to require reflexes and responses in pvp, and how the hell are you supposed to respond to something that doesn't happen?!

@laced

This x1000.. I guess this little sentence sums up this whole topic.

Kyotee0071

Well guys I'm moving on. I just can't get into this game. The combat just seems too "shallow" and I'm finding myself bored. I don't see this game turning into anything serious pvp wise as long as the allow the animation skipping. On top of that like I said, it just doesn't feel like a deep combat system that will hold player's attention for long.

If someone wants to take over, keeping this thread bumped and replying to the naysayers...please do so. If not, just let it die. Doesn't matter to me either way anymore.

I wish you all fun times and happy gaming. Me, I'm heading elsewhere for my pvp fix until something else comes along.

AlliN

Well, maybe when half-serious pvp'ers will share their macro's with each other to their A4tech and logitech mouses, that change bash/light attack/shield cancel into one button insta kill fest (because macro is the main way to make it work), they'll do something about it - but as for now, anyone dedicated enough to obliterate you with a script in two seconds can do it.

And yeah, it was reported as an issue, by many beta testers.

grizzbi

All the different discussion about animation clipping, here and there, led to nothing. No official word, no feedback, no fix, no vision...nothing.

Don't waste too much time on these forums: criticism and constructive feedback is perceived here as harassment...As Kyotee, myself, and probably many other, understand that you can play the game for what it is, or just move on for another with a more listened community.

rager82b14_ESO

So the patch did not fix this game breaking flaw? Yes game breaking. How can I counter a skill in pvp, if I don't get to see it? Also, it breaks some content in pve.

Kalston

It's sad but the issue is deep and they'd need to dig deep in the code to fix it. The entire combat system is clunky and glitchy. Since they are not acknowledging how bad the issue is I think we better just move on. And since it was already in beta it's difficult to be optimistic.

Enigmatix

Its not a damn feature I think.
Sure you should be able to cancel abilities to react to something but then you should not do any damage.
How can people think that it is intended to start a skill and cancel them instant so that nobody can see what you are doing(you just look like a spazming thing) is a feature??
How should someone react to that?
You just cant.
Its not an feature its an exploit.
Even more annoying is that people use macros to do that.
BTW: Macros are not allowed read the TOS there is stated that you are not allowed to use hard or software that improve your skills. What Macros clearly do.

Its under point 9:
You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services
I hope every one how has staded he uses macros do do this will get banned.
They simply deserve it and they violated the TOS so there shouldnt be any point why they shouldn´t.

Westcoast14_ESO

If the augmented DPS and per hit effects are not working as intended with their interrupt scheme, ZoS can use a "prorated rebate" to correct this while still retaining their interrupt scheme.

Ex. if you interrupt a light attack 60% of the way through animation completion, then you retain (100-60)% of the damage caused until other abilities make up for it.

So if a light attack did 100 damage, and you interrupted the animation at the 60% point, then 40 damage is subtracted from the next attack. If you're going to RP reason it out, you could justify it as a penalty for "rushing" your next action. If the rebate is not used up by the next attack, you carry it over until its either consumed or until the cumulative animation cancellation time has passed.

If you want to reward the play style, but tone down its impact, then just reduce the amount of the carry over that is subtracted from the next attack. So in the above, instead of the carrying over 40 damage to be subtracted, you only carry over half of that or 20. You could also implement it so if a player interrupted at an attack/ability at the X% point, then you adjust the interrupting abilities damage and such by (100-X)% (or less if you want to reward but tone down the Impact of the play style). The same thing can be done for per hit/attack effects like Red Diamond.

Tal_72

Well, I posted the below on today's Zenimax Reddit AMA. Nobody answered unfortunately, so I am not expecting a fix any time soon. We got one comment several pages back that it was being looked at--and that was over a week ago . Very disheartening. They made just a few references to balance and nerfing DK standard (and possibly ultimate generation) and vamp ultimate.

1. Is Zenimax aware of animation cancelling? Attack skills can override basic attack animations, and bash can override skill attack animations–and chaining these together can significantly raise DPS–disproportionately with classes able to do this while drawing from both resource pools (DKs mostly and also NBs who can do this longer by using skill attacks to spend magicka and bash to spend stamina).
2. Does Zenimax have more plans for bash? With the recently announced change,players are just switching from damage to cost reduction enchants.
3. Is Zenimax looking at class balance? DKs seem to be very strong–in part because of animation cancelling and also because of inexpensive gap closers with no cooldowns. Flying blade increased cost will hurt melee sorcs who cannot pepper in magicka dps attacks to use 2 pools like DKs and NBs–and cannot kite well because of the gap closers.
4. Can vampire be looked at? Players can lower ultimate costs to 40 and to single digits in some cases allowing people to use bat spam in AVA–and this also makes DKs especially powerful in conjunction with Battle Roar passive.

Kyotee0071

gchutsonub17_ESO wrote: »

Well, I posted the below on today's Zenimax Reddit AMA. Nobody answered unfortunately, so I am not expecting a fix any time soon. We got one comment several pages back that it was being looked at--and that was over a week ago . Very disheartening. They made just a few references to balance and nerfing DK standard (and possibly ultimate generation) and vamp ultimate.

1. Is Zenimax aware of animation cancelling? Attack skills can override basic attack animations, and bash can override skill attack animations–and chaining these together can significantly raise DPS–disproportionately with classes able to do this while drawing from both resource pools (DKs mostly and also NBs who can do this longer by using skill attacks to spend magicka and bash to spend stamina).
2. Does Zenimax have more plans for bash? With the recently announced change,players are just switching from damage to cost reduction enchants.
3. Is Zenimax looking at class balance? DKs seem to be very strong–in part because of animation cancelling and also because of inexpensive gap closers with no cooldowns. Flying blade increased cost will hurt melee sorcs who cannot pepper in magicka dps attacks to use 2 pools like DKs and NBs–and cannot kite well because of the gap closers.
4. Can vampire be looked at? Players can lower ultimate costs to 40 and to single digits in some cases allowing people to use bat spam in AVA–and this also makes DKs especially powerful in conjunction with Battle Roar passive.

Nice post there.

Yeah I'm back. Went back to GW2 and didn't make it more than 3 hours before uninstalling. Seems I losing connection to the client every 20 minutes or so, and that never happened before they implemented the mega server feature patch. Since I don't have any issues with any other game online, I'm not going in and tweaking things just to play that game...Also it seems to be a widespread problem and no answers from the GW2 staff - so pfft.

Back to topic

I "skimmed" over the questions as best I could while at work here. It seems there were quite a few questions on the animation canceling / macroing issue, yet none of them we responded to at all.

Looking at the upcoming patch notes though, they do include a "fixing combat animation glitches" in there I believe. So here's to hoping.

It very well might just be part of the game's combat and what the developers plan to live with. I can live with that as long as they at least stop folks from using macro's to pull it off, and tone bash down significantly.

But yeah, @gchutsonub17_ESO - thanks for trying to get some answers for us.

nimbli

Previous posts summed this topic up pretty well. Hope it does get fixed. This game now feels like a 1990's Nintendo button masher.

Jade1986

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

gchutsonub17_ESO wrote: »

Well, I posted the below on today's Zenimax Reddit AMA. Nobody answered unfortunately, so I am not expecting a fix any time soon. We got one comment several pages back that it was being looked at--and that was over a week ago . Very disheartening. They made just a few references to balance and nerfing DK standard (and possibly ultimate generation) and vamp ultimate.

1. Is Zenimax aware of animation cancelling? Attack skills can override basic attack animations, and bash can override skill attack animations–and chaining these together can significantly raise DPS–disproportionately with classes able to do this while drawing from both resource pools (DKs mostly and also NBs who can do this longer by using skill attacks to spend magicka and bash to spend stamina).
2. Does Zenimax have more plans for bash? With the recently announced change,players are just switching from damage to cost reduction enchants.
3. Is Zenimax looking at class balance? DKs seem to be very strong–in part because of animation cancelling and also because of inexpensive gap closers with no cooldowns. Flying blade increased cost will hurt melee sorcs who cannot pepper in magicka dps attacks to use 2 pools like DKs and NBs–and cannot kite well because of the gap closers.
4. Can vampire be looked at? Players can lower ultimate costs to 40 and to single digits in some cases allowing people to use bat spam in AVA–and this also makes DKs especially powerful in conjunction with Battle Roar passive.

Nice post there.

Yeah I'm back. Went back to GW2 and didn't make it more than 3 hours before uninstalling. Seems I losing connection to the client every 20 minutes or so, and that never happened before they implemented the mega server feature patch. Since I don't have any issues with any other game online, I'm not going in and tweaking things just to play that game...Also it seems to be a widespread problem and no answers from the GW2 staff - so pfft.

Back to topic

I "skimmed" over the questions as best I could while at work here. It seems there were quite a few questions on the animation canceling / macroing issue, yet none of them we responded to at all.

Looking at the upcoming patch notes though, they do include a "fixing combat animation glitches" in there I believe. So here's to hoping.

It very well might just be part of the game's combat and what the developers plan to live with. I can live with that as long as they at least stop folks from using macro's to pull it off, and tone bash down significantly.

But yeah, @gchutsonub17_ESO - thanks for trying to get some answers for us.

If they don't get rid of it, I, and the majority of others will abandon ship when it comes to pvp. I bought this game to have a challenge and have to actually respond to attacks. this just ruins it....completely.

Thechemicals

laced wrote: »

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

gchutsonub17_ESO wrote: »

Well, I posted the below on today's Zenimax Reddit AMA. Nobody answered unfortunately, so I am not expecting a fix any time soon. We got one comment several pages back that it was being looked at--and that was over a week ago . Very disheartening. They made just a few references to balance and nerfing DK standard (and possibly ultimate generation) and vamp ultimate.

1. Is Zenimax aware of animation cancelling? Attack skills can override basic attack animations, and bash can override skill attack animations–and chaining these together can significantly raise DPS–disproportionately with classes able to do this while drawing from both resource pools (DKs mostly and also NBs who can do this longer by using skill attacks to spend magicka and bash to spend stamina).
2. Does Zenimax have more plans for bash? With the recently announced change,players are just switching from damage to cost reduction enchants.
3. Is Zenimax looking at class balance? DKs seem to be very strong–in part because of animation cancelling and also because of inexpensive gap closers with no cooldowns. Flying blade increased cost will hurt melee sorcs who cannot pepper in magicka dps attacks to use 2 pools like DKs and NBs–and cannot kite well because of the gap closers.
4. Can vampire be looked at? Players can lower ultimate costs to 40 and to single digits in some cases allowing people to use bat spam in AVA–and this also makes DKs especially powerful in conjunction with Battle Roar passive.

Nice post there.

Yeah I'm back. Went back to GW2 and didn't make it more than 3 hours before uninstalling. Seems I losing connection to the client every 20 minutes or so, and that never happened before they implemented the mega server feature patch. Since I don't have any issues with any other game online, I'm not going in and tweaking things just to play that game...Also it seems to be a widespread problem and no answers from the GW2 staff - so pfft.

Back to topic

I "skimmed" over the questions as best I could while at work here. It seems there were quite a few questions on the animation canceling / macroing issue, yet none of them we responded to at all.

Looking at the upcoming patch notes though, they do include a "fixing combat animation glitches" in there I believe. So here's to hoping.

It very well might just be part of the game's combat and what the developers plan to live with. I can live with that as long as they at least stop folks from using macro's to pull it off, and tone bash down significantly.

But yeah, @gchutsonub17_ESO - thanks for trying to get some answers for us.

If they don't get rid of it, I, and the majority of others will abandon ship when it comes to pvp. I bought this game to have a challenge and have to actually respond to attacks. this just ruins it....completely.

Actually the guy your quoting post on quit the game in this very thread and he came back so yeah..... just a lot of hot air.

Vartra

I had heard a few things about this back in beta, but it didn't get a lot of attention until just now. I think the rest of the thread hammers home the PvP implications and the use of macros etc to gain advantage very well so I won't parrot any of that.

I will say that the way the system is designed makes logical sense, as being unable to block or interrupt something as a quick reaction would be frustrating and diminish the combat considerably. The problem is there's not a tight enough rein on how and when the abilities themselves fire off damage, which lets the client sneak things through if actions are performed quickly enough.

Anyway there are others in the thread who have very thoughtful and detailed potential fixes so +1 to them and here's hoping we see a fix. I just wanted to chime in to say it's not necessarily the override order design that's bad, it's how other components are handled sloppily creating problems.

Jade1986

Thechemicals wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

gchutsonub17_ESO wrote: »

Well, I posted the below on today's Zenimax Reddit AMA. Nobody answered unfortunately, so I am not expecting a fix any time soon. We got one comment several pages back that it was being looked at--and that was over a week ago . Very disheartening. They made just a few references to balance and nerfing DK standard (and possibly ultimate generation) and vamp ultimate.

1. Is Zenimax aware of animation cancelling? Attack skills can override basic attack animations, and bash can override skill attack animations–and chaining these together can significantly raise DPS–disproportionately with classes able to do this while drawing from both resource pools (DKs mostly and also NBs who can do this longer by using skill attacks to spend magicka and bash to spend stamina).
2. Does Zenimax have more plans for bash? With the recently announced change,players are just switching from damage to cost reduction enchants.
3. Is Zenimax looking at class balance? DKs seem to be very strong–in part because of animation cancelling and also because of inexpensive gap closers with no cooldowns. Flying blade increased cost will hurt melee sorcs who cannot pepper in magicka dps attacks to use 2 pools like DKs and NBs–and cannot kite well because of the gap closers.
4. Can vampire be looked at? Players can lower ultimate costs to 40 and to single digits in some cases allowing people to use bat spam in AVA–and this also makes DKs especially powerful in conjunction with Battle Roar passive.

Nice post there.

Yeah I'm back. Went back to GW2 and didn't make it more than 3 hours before uninstalling. Seems I losing connection to the client every 20 minutes or so, and that never happened before they implemented the mega server feature patch. Since I don't have any issues with any other game online, I'm not going in and tweaking things just to play that game...Also it seems to be a widespread problem and no answers from the GW2 staff - so pfft.

Back to topic

I "skimmed" over the questions as best I could while at work here. It seems there were quite a few questions on the animation canceling / macroing issue, yet none of them we responded to at all.

Looking at the upcoming patch notes though, they do include a "fixing combat animation glitches" in there I believe. So here's to hoping.

It very well might just be part of the game's combat and what the developers plan to live with. I can live with that as long as they at least stop folks from using macro's to pull it off, and tone bash down significantly.

But yeah, @gchutsonub17_ESO - thanks for trying to get some answers for us.

If they don't get rid of it, I, and the majority of others will abandon ship when it comes to pvp. I bought this game to have a challenge and have to actually respond to attacks. this just ruins it....completely.

Actually the guy your quoting post on quit the game in this very thread and he came back so yeah..... just a lot of hot air.

He wont be the only one that quits if they don't get rid of this nonsense. Only people that rely on exploits like this defend it. This game is suppose to be about action - reaction. Not Action.....impossible to react to because he did 10 actions at once.

Kyotee0071

**Edited to remove my previously trollish response to Thechemicals. We have been going at it on the forums here a bit since I started this thread**

@Thechemicals - I'm done going back and forth with you on the forums bro. We obviously have different taste in PvP style, but that doesn't make either one of us right or wrong on the topic.

Different strokes for different folks.

I'm extending a -



- and an apology for comments made towards you, or responding to comments from you towards me.

We are both adults it seems. There is no use to be bashing each other on these forums. What does it gain us?

If you feel the need to lash out at me and don't accept my apology and offering of a truce, it's fine. Just know that my "extending the olive branch" is sincere. We can disagree without the "L2P", and "Lol console game PVP" comments from both of us, and act like civilized adults.

*And the rest of you hush! Civilized Adults do exist on the internet - The problem is it's easy to forget that is what we are during forum visits at times*

Kyo

Now - I'm done derailing the topic with Epeen contest.

Thanks for everyone's input on the subject over the last couple weeks.

Bscott0905b14_ESO

So this is brainlessly easy to macro to my Razer mouse or keyboard and is unbelievably unfair. I sure hope this gets fixed fast or it wont be long before all players looking to be competitive all spam macros.

Kyotee0071

Bscott0905b14_ESO wrote: »

So this is brainlessly easy to macro to my Razer mouse or keyboard and is unbelievably unfair. I sure hope this gets fixed fast or it wont be long before all players looking to be competitive all spam macros.

I'm not sure if everyone will be actually using macros, as some will just like to have a more interactive feel of their actual character and be in total control. I know I for one would not use macros. Also using macros locks you out of some actions you might need at that very moment in a pvp situation. Yes there will people that are either "lazy" or have poor hand eye coordination and abuse the macro system.

The problem is getting worse though. More and more PvP folks are using 1 hand and shield combo, as they feel forced to use that play style to compete against it. Someone I respect as a serious PVP player guested to AB the other day and quoted how awful it actually was. Not the campaign itself being awful, or the state of pvp players there - but the fact that a huge majority of the PVP base are using the 1 Hand / shield animation canceling / bash play style. Not to mention so many vampires and DK's (that's another topic though minus animation canceling).

The very person I quoted in my original post here who's video is linked showing how to animation cancel had an interesting comment yesterday.

Someone asked why he was linking "faceroll" builds with 1hand / shield - bash - vampire combo, and the fact that it wasn't a very original build as everyone is using the combo.

His response, was along the lines of (not word for word as this is from memory and I could link the direct quote but don't feel the need to do so) "Maybe if 90% of the player base is using the build / animation canceling ZoS will take notice and fix the issues. I want quality PVP for all of us, and as of now this game has some issues to work out."

There are numerous pvp video guides now popping up including how to abuse the animation canceling, and the problem is just going to continue getting worse.

Notice how I said problem? That might be a very bad word choice because if ZoS has no problem with it, then there actually isn't a problem and we'll all just have to adapt to be competitive. There are still builds out there that beat bash spamming / vampire / animation canceling opponents, but your build choice will probably be drastically limited to compete.

AlliN

I'm not sure if everyone will be actually using macros, as some will just like to have a more interactive feel of their actual character and be in total control.

Every pvp pro wannabie will - not talkning about normal honest pvp'ers but those people that ride bugs and glitches to gain upper hand. If that would be even 1/10th you will have thousands of people running around with one button macroed light attack->skill->bash macro pulling tens of times of their intended dps.

And in those times, of instant gratification crowds, I bet that's a lot of people.

DigitalMerc83

You could always just save yourself the 'trouble' of all the 'useless' PvE content and just play a MOBA.

So the general 'vibe' of the "elite PvP crowd" commenting here is that you want to spam 3 skills over and over to kill a 'player', instead of AI [using the SAME exact abilities] and in doing so, you consider yourself more skillful? ROFL.

PvP elitism, RUINING the MMO genre since WoW.

Hilgara

I don't think this needs changed (apart from the sword n board bash damage) it adds another level of complexity to what is a fairly simple rotation of just 5 abilities. It took me a long time to master this so its not just something you can exploit. It needs to be learned.

Hexagar

They could add a CD in all the abilities till each animation finishes.. that way they will make the combat more strategic too imho. No?

Tipsy

I had something weird in a public dungeon yesterday ;I was in combat with a mob ,was slashing with my one handed sword against it but it seemed untouchable(the mob was in the right corner of the hall)..then another player came by and was slashing at the left corner of that hall in thin air,but the mob that was untouchable for me started losing health.So it seemed like the mob was shown at the wrong location for me.
Perhaps this is a lagg spike on my part?

Reykice

Hexagar wrote: »

They could add a CD in all the abilities till each animation finishes.. that way they will make the combat more strategic too imho. No?

It depends... the DW animation for flurry takes a long time(longer than tool tip says it does) so if the boss does a big hit/aoe and you need to cancel it but can`t you die.... melee is hard enough and subpar, it doesn`t need any more nerfs.

The light attack animation is fast enough so maybe not allow it to be cancelled... BUT only for the light attack animation as the heavy attacks take 2s+ on some weapons and without cancelling you would be a sitting duck in any PvE/PvP scenarion...

Either way they need to do this very carefully and only after they balance the weapons... if they don`t handle it properly it will *** of more people compared to the ones that will be happy...

Or just leave it like this and balance knowing this....

Attorneyatlawl

Wreaken wrote: »

JesinCrowe wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

stryderzz wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

This really looks like a learn to play issue.

looks more like an abusing global cooldown bug issue

There is no global cooldown in this game. That may very well be the problem?

No gcd is not a problem.

This game works on reactionary combat. You can interrupt actions with block/bash so that cast animations dont get you killed when a boss fires up a power attack in the middle of a cast.

Adding some sort of gcd will require them to redo the entire combat system or face the wrath of pve players.

Another case of pvp effing up the entire other half of the game.

Sorry, pvp IS the game. PvE is garbage for those that lack reactions to fight pvp.

You clearly aren't doing the veteran rank 3+ content then.

The PVE is still easy in vet if you don't sit there and eat power attacks.

Signed, psijic VR10 dk + vr5 psijic nightblade + vr2 psijic sorc, live vr10 dk, just shy of vr4 live nightblade.

Hexagar

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

Hexagar wrote: »

They could add a CD in all the abilities till each animation finishes.. that way they will make the combat more strategic too imho. No?

It depends... the DW animation for flurry takes a long time(longer than tool tip says it does) so if the boss does a big hit/aoe and you need to cancel it but can`t you die.... melee is hard enough and subpar, it doesn`t need any more nerfs.

The light attack animation is fast enough so maybe not allow it to be cancelled... BUT only for the light attack animation as the heavy attacks take 2s+ on some weapons and without cancelling you would be a sitting duck in any PvE/PvP scenarion...

Either way they need to do this very carefully and only after they balance the weapons... if they don`t handle it properly it will *** of more people compared to the ones that will be happy...

Or just leave it like this and balance knowing this....

Thats why I said it will make the combat more strategic. U need to know when and what u need to do situational. .. in my eyes thats not a melee nerf tbh.. u can land your heavy attacks on disabled enemies and I would like to see some more dmg in heavy attacks... no animation cancelation but a buff to power attacks would be great.

Jade1986

Hilgara wrote: »

I don't think this needs changed (apart from the sword n board bash damage) it adds another level of complexity to what is a fairly simple rotation of just 5 abilities. It took me a long time to master this so its not just something you can exploit. It needs to be learned.

Except this game is supposed to be about reacting to your enemies attacks and be real time, one cannot react to something one cannot see, therefore it is an exploit and needs to be fixed.