** Major Combat Flaw - Animation Canceling/Damage Stacking - Devs Please Look Here **

Bscott0905b14_ESO

It just feeling beyond cheep and makes the game less immerse. Almost like an exploit that you feel compelled to do. If I had to pick one major reason why I unsubbed this would be on top. I actually can't wait to sub again once this is fixed and VR levels go away.

Daethz

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Daethz wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Rodario wrote: »

Other than "We did not expect this", that is. I'd like to know if this is staying and we should get used to it, or if it will be fixed soon.

There's nothing to fix... they unintentionally designed it in and are now leaving it alone because it's an integral part of their current combat system.

Its game breaking, and if its not they need to fix it so you don't need to use third party systems for macros to get the best out of it.

The entire development team needs to be focused on fixing animations.
And if they need help they should call in dev teams from Bethesda, Zenimax, ID and other Zenimax Subsidiarys.

Even if the entire combat system of ESO has to be rebuilt from the ground up, it is needed, or ESO will fail miserably and be a major scar on the entire series and company for the remainder of their existence.

You don't need to use a macro when the window for using it is about a full second... it's easy to do, and the timing involved is such that lag or even just needing to move/hit another ability quickly would mess things up if you macro'd it regardless in pvp. There's absolutely zero benefit to macroing animation cancelling and eso's combat system works 100% great as far as this mechanic is concerned.

Sure, the window might be a full second, but you can speed it up even further, further improving your benefit from this, by macroing it.
Each weapon appears to have different macro times too.

Srugzal

Blade_07 wrote: »

Reavan wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Uhh its PvP its was a waste of time before these exploits it will be long after, how are people not understand PvP in all games is a joke its no different here ...sheesh

Just because your reactions and thought pasterns suck does not mean PVP in general in every game sucks.
Keep playing against that challenging scripted ''''AI'''' though.
Sure is hard.

Bash does need fixed along with a great many things from DK's banner, Vamps ultimate, destro staff 5. Etc Etc.

PvP dose suck horribly!!!!! Its ALWAYS unbalanced and always has been that way in RPG's. You can deny it all you want but its a FACT that PvP is HIGHLY unbalanced!!!! I totally & completely HATE PvP....that can not and will not ever be over stated!!! In almost all situations where there is PvP your either getting ganked or your ganking, one or the other! Please go ahead and deny it and say that is not so but me and other people that hate PvP know the truth and there is nothing nobody could ever say that will convince me that PvP is balanced and fair for everybody!!!! Oh yay......I just got ganked by 6 players....whoo hooo, that was soooooooooooo much damn fun!!!! I'm trying to quest/farm and I get ganked, that just ruins MY game and tics me off cuz there was totally nothing I could do to prevent it! 2 or more on 1 sucks and is extremely frustrating to the 1 guy by him or her self! Yeah, but you hardcore PvP'ers get your jollies off by going around in a group killing single players cuz its easy and you enjoy grieving other players. CHEAP & SICK minded of you guys that do that! "I'm so cool and bad *** when I PvP"....yeah right!
And in the very rare cases where you are 1 v 1, one of the players is almost always OP to the other player! Its almost never balanced...PERIOD! So, really how is that suppose to good fun? Oh sure you PvP'ers LOVE it just cuz its unbalanced in your favor and unfair in almost every situation. Also love the situations where I'm fighting 1 or more mobs and some person thinks its OK and cool to attack me cuz I'm busy with a mob or more. It = a easy kill for them and they just love it that way. So, I ask how is it any different from a PvE'er in a stand point of difficulty? PvE person enjoys the level of challenges he or she gets from PvE & a PvE person in almost ALL cases has it easy cuz its so easy to run around in a large group and gank single players. WTH is so hard about that??? Huh? Seriousy, how is that hard???? You PvP'ers are always saying the PvE'ers like it easy but in all reality most of you PvP'ers are the ones who like it easy. Hypocrites! You mock use PvE's cuz you think we dont like a REAL challenge but you your self's got it completely easy for the most part! What challenge is there running in a group and smashing single players? NONE!!!
Now I do realize that not all PvP is just groups running around killing single players. It can be groups against other groups and I think that is actually fun and I have enjoyed it like that. And I have REALLY enjoyed PvP that is in a area where players can go back to a place where you cant be attacked by the apposing faction. So, if things get to a point where your about to get ganked by multiple players each faction has a place to retreat to and be safe. Kinda tends to even things out a bit and make it actually fun.
Oh, and there are those that like to hack as well just so they can win almost all the time! Easy to find them...they kill you instantly! Love those guys soooo much! They just help add to the point why PvP is so unbalanced. So glad that Zenimax set PvP up the way they have! Players are not FORCED into PvP that they dont want. A lot of massively sized zones to enjoy PvE in and not get grieved by some PvP'er!!! And you PvP'ers can just gank away and get that easy kill that makes you think your so tough! ~.^ So, its a win win for everybody.

I'm sorry if the truth hurts you PvP'ers but I needed to instantly vent this in a hardcore way! And please dont bother trying to convince me I'm wrong cuz #1 I know exactly how PvP works cuz I have done lots of it way to long to be told any different and #2 I dont plan on coming back to this thread to even waste my time. I know I'm correct so I really have nothing else to say. Flame away cuz I know you will. The truth dose sting so yeah go right ahead.

Cheers! ~.^

I have notified the Exclamation Point Protection Service about your abuse of this punctuation mark. You can expect a knock on your door shortly.

IcyDeadPeople

Daethz wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Rodario wrote: »

Other than "We did not expect this", that is. I'd like to know if this is staying and we should get used to it, or if it will be fixed soon.

There's nothing to fix... they unintentionally designed it in and are now leaving it alone because it's an integral part of their current combat system.

Its game breaking, and if its not they need to fix it so you don't need to use third party systems for macros to get the best out of it.

The entire development team needs to be focused on fixing animations.
And if they need help they should call in dev teams from Bethesda, Zenimax, ID and other Zenimax Subsidiarys.

Even if the entire combat system of ESO has to be rebuilt from the ground up, it is needed, or ESO will fail miserably and be a major scar on the entire series and company for the remainder of their existence.

I have trouble understanding how anyone can consider animation canceling to be game breaking, as it's been part of the combat system at least since the first long term test on PTS last year.

For all the flaws, bugs and pending balance tweaks, etc., I still enjoy the PVP combat in this game more than anything else that's come out in the past few years.

Attorneyatlawl

Daethz wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Daethz wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Rodario wrote: »

Other than "We did not expect this", that is. I'd like to know if this is staying and we should get used to it, or if it will be fixed soon.

There's nothing to fix... they unintentionally designed it in and are now leaving it alone because it's an integral part of their current combat system.

Its game breaking, and if its not they need to fix it so you don't need to use third party systems for macros to get the best out of it.

The entire development team needs to be focused on fixing animations.
And if they need help they should call in dev teams from Bethesda, Zenimax, ID and other Zenimax Subsidiarys.

Even if the entire combat system of ESO has to be rebuilt from the ground up, it is needed, or ESO will fail miserably and be a major scar on the entire series and company for the remainder of their existence.

You don't need to use a macro when the window for using it is about a full second... it's easy to do, and the timing involved is such that lag or even just needing to move/hit another ability quickly would mess things up if you macro'd it regardless in pvp. There's absolutely zero benefit to macroing animation cancelling and eso's combat system works 100% great as far as this mechanic is concerned.

Sure, the window might be a full second, but you can speed it up even further, further improving your benefit from this, by macroing it.
Each weapon appears to have different macro times too.

Again, this just shows that there is a lot of misinformation in this discussion. You absiolutely cannot exceed the rate of 1 action per second on a light attack and an ability, each (they have separate timers). They have to have a small buffer between them but each one can only ever fire at a maximum of 1 per second approximately, or thus two attacks total. It doesn't matter if you cheat and use disallowed 3rd-party macros, you won't exceed someone who just manually does it (aka everyone) . Animation canceling is literally just a fancy name for what I figured out the first day I was in the cyro weekend in july 2013, which was that you could hit an ability very quickly after a light and get it off faster than just waiting for an unneeded animation to finish.

grimjim398

There is nothing on earth more tiresome than PvP gamers in a snit.

Phinix1

It has been 5 months and they haven't managed to balance stamina builds to be anywhere remotely close to the output, utility, and survivability of magicka builds.

What makes you think "fixing" this will make things better?

All this will do is make instant-cast ability builds that much more powerful, and stamina builds suck that much harder.

Grim13

grimjim398 wrote: »

There is nothing on earth more tiresome than PvP gamers in a snit.

Than why are you reading this thread?

Kyotee0071

OP here. Just returned to the game. I will be the first to admit that I probably jumped the gun, and titled this thread way wrong at such an early state of the game.

I've been playing MMO's since 1998, like a lot of you here. But, the thing is they were more traditional type combat for the genre (Everquest, Daoc, Everquest 2, WoW, SWToR, Warhammer,). Then I hopped on GW2 before ESO and it was a bit different. Very few casted abilities, and I got to control my own dodges.

I have to say ESO is the only MMO I had played that had the animation canceling weaved into the system. Yes I played my share of fighting games over the years. I was the neighborhood king at Tekken for ages on playstation (Lol), Paul was on bad dude - But I had never seen it in an MMO.

So it just didn't feel right. How am I to counter something with no animation?

I've read that the Devs didn't intend for the combat to be played this way, but it is not an exploit. So, obviously they feel we as a player base can adapt to the system. Which we should be able too pretty easily.

It might not be ideal to everyone, but everyone should be able to do it. It's not hard, and yes you do not need a macro program to use it. Reread what Attorneyatlawl has written here recently to see that the system is indeed limited to how fast you can cancel animations.

Coming from MMMO's where folks normally run 35-40 Key binds (some classes = close to 70 keybinds), Focus macros, arena macros, etc. Pulling off animation canceling should seem like a cake walk. I suggest folks just start learning the system here.

So I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. Obviously this is not a "Major Combat Flaw" in the game. Though I still don't think it's ideal for the games competitive environment, it looks like it's here to stay.

Might as well stop beating a dead horse. I believe animation canceling is here to stay, and IMHO if you macro the abilities you are cheating yourself out of fun.

/peace

Nazon_Katts

Now that we've learned to live with it and adapted to its use, somehow the feeling we'll see it changed soon starts creeping up on me...

WarirorHax

I honestly can't believe you retracted your statement. I unsubbed 4 months ago and haven't resubbed since because of how boring the stupid spell weaving system made this game. Basically why would anyone play anything other than the same class when its always just light/stam-magic ability/block FOR EVERYONE. I'm not coming back until this is removed.

Message to the Dev's

I've been playing MMO's like this one for 12 years and never in my life have I seen such a brutal mistake as the decision to let this go on as long as you have. I never hear anyone talking about ESO in any of the gaming communities I'm a part of. No one plays it, no one speaks of it. This game has pretty much turned into SWTOR as far as its popularity and success, and I don't care if this pisses you off, it's your fault you let it end up like this. Around the time I was quitting and noticed a lot of other people also quitting, they all were telling me the same thing. "I grinded levels until V10-V12 just to do the same thing every other class is doing, and the crafted gear is better than the raid gear."

I REALLY loved this game in the beginning and promoted it to EVERYONE I knew. ***, I was a manager of a gaming community of over 500 active members and I influenced probably 20 people to buy and play this game. After raids came out in Craglorn and spell weaving was discovered, all but one of those people still play this game, and that's because he is a tank. In my honest opinion, and I mean this in the best possible way, if you have any hopes of salvaging this game, destroy the ability to spell weave with NO substitutes that even resemble its play style, and re-advertise the game with the said changes, and you will be GOLDEN. I don't pretend to act like some master game designer but game design was originally created around a passion for gaming, and gaming is my passion, I've played it all, and I've played it all A LOT. I've seen bad games turn into fun time gold mines, and super hyped games turn in to repetitive mega flops. The people that get on your forums and take the time to give you honest feedback really care for the well being of this game.

Please, for the sake of happiness, please.

Kyotee0071

WarirorHax wrote: »

I honestly can't believe you retracted your statement. I unsubbed 4 months ago and haven't resubbed since because of how boring the stupid spell weaving system made this game. Basically why would anyone play anything other than the same class when its always just light/stam-magic ability/block FOR EVERYONE. I'm not coming back until this is removed.

If you were referring to my comment above, I'm not retracting my stance per se - I'm just stating I'm tired of fighting the battle. I don't believe things are going to change. The problem probably lies way too deep in the actual combat system to even try and fix.

Also, a lot of players seem to enjoy the combat style. Who's to say we are right, and those players are wrong.

I'm just taking the stance of if you can't beat em, join em - and adapting.

I'm surprised this thread is still going. Obviously the devs are fine with things as is when it comes to the combat style of the game.

Palidon

Why complain about Animation Cancelling. Either deal with it or learn how to use it. Animation Cancelling is not a cheat. For weapon attacks it is effectively using combinations of light/heavy attacks and skill attacks to produce maximum outputs of DPS. Anyone in the game can use Animation Cancelling if you practice the sequence and know when to cancel the animations. There are numerous videos on Youtube that explain and show you exactly how to do it. Then instead of complaining get out there and practice until you are good at it. A good place to practice is The Rift attacking the Elephants and Giants. The more you practice once you have the basics down the better you will get.

Kingdinguhling

I believe this is a thing they just don't want to take the time to fix.

if they wanted it to be exploited then why not allow everyone to be able to Cast back to back. why are Certain 3rd party programs allowing others too to do this and not everyone naturally.

My Question is if they are working as intended then why doesn't ZOS just allow us to cast back to back to back if some players can exploit it with a 3rd party system.

they simply won't because they aren't worried about hardcore gaming balance at this point. they are barely treading water as it is.


And because they don't want to tell us they messed up they just tell us this is how it was intended to work. but any logical person could see this is a loop-hole.

Troneon

Wow, topic mentioned this a year ago and still the issues exists lol

MmmmTofu

Troneon wrote: »

Wow, topic mentioned this a year ago and still the issues exists lol

Yup.

Gale91

If you people even need a macro to string merely 5 (or 10) skills effectively at any given time, you may as well stop playing action games.

NordJitsu

Troneon wrote: »

Wow, topic mentioned this a year ago and still the issues exists lol

Did they ever address concerns about this?

DovresMalven

If they nerf animation cancelling, which im beginning to suspect they might... They will really need to looks closely at balancing stam and magic builds. weaving / animation cancelling is essential to a lot of end game players -- and without it there will immediately be huge imbalances in a lot of different play styles.

^^ also OP just posted a few posts above

wraith808

NordJitsu wrote: »

Troneon wrote: »

Wow, topic mentioned this a year ago and still the issues exists lol

Did they ever address concerns about this?

Other than to say they weren't going to address concerns about it?

It's directly addressed in an ESO live around 1.6 if you want to search for it.

Also addressed at http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1532782/#Comment_1532782