** Major Combat Flaw - Animation Canceling/Damage Stacking - Devs Please Look Here **

jvargas150_ESO

Was this fix yet?

Desdemonte

Patch 1.1 hopefully.

Faustes

Can we get word if this is actually a bug, or intended?

I don't want to learn how to do it, get used to it, then have it fixed.

Faustes

Anyone know if the patch addressed this?

robertsian87b14_ESO

I would also very much appreciate an official statement from ZOS on whether or not this is a bug. Is the animation canceling working as designed? If it is a bug, is there any status to report on a fix?

Frankly I don't really care one way or another whether it's a bug or not. I just want to know for future build planning, etc. I'd be inclined to believe it's a bug, based on skills like Haste, that are effectively useless because of animation canceling. But as long as there's an understanding one way or another on the intention here, that would be excellent.

doedellerib16_ESO

Ofcourse, this is not intended. Its a joke that such easily macrod exploits have been in game since launch, and not a single word from devs. For ppl, including me, that dont frequent forums, reddit, foundry at a regular basis - we never even heard of the priority of abilities/animations till now.

At least I haven't. Was just some guy talking about it in a trade guild today, thought I'd check it out. Sounded way too silly, but here it is. Ok, so I was supposed to partially charge heavy attack, hit ability, then bash - why didnt tutorial tell me that, since its such an INSANE dps boost? And so easily macro'd!

Anyway - unsubbed. Just too much bs, this just adds to it. Wildstar it is.

(Yes, you can have my stuff, and the door will probably hit me on the way out.)

aleister

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

You may have heard that ESO does not have a global cooldown, but since it requires animations to finish before the next ability is used, this basically amounts to a GCD.

I struggle to believe that this is how it is really implemented. If the game actually relies on client-side animation completion to pace ability spamming then this is incredibly bad design. Incredibly.

Animations should be nothing more than client-side eye candy and should have no impact on ability cool-downs, which should be controlled by the server and always be consistent.

Kyotee0071

@aleister Yah the first part of the original post was a copy paste from the player that posted the video. The quote you put in was also me copying his post from another forum. You left out the last half of the paragraph explaining that though there is no actual global cool down, you can abuse the system by using a higher priority ability to cancel animations.

Quoted full paragraph :

"You may have heard that ESO does not have a global cool down, but since it requires animations to finish before the next ability is used, this basically amounts to a GCD. What’s interesting is that there are different “priority levels” with ESO abilities, with some being able to cancel the animations of others while still allowing the cancelled ability to activate".

If you add the second part of the paragraph it makes much more sense than the single sentence you chose to quote.

I personally know there is no global cool down. But I also personally believe animations should complete on abilities unless the player taps block to cancel the animation, and all damage done by the canceled animation. Tapping block after starting an animation of a hard hitting ability is horrible design if it allows the abilities damage and effect to hit without the animation. There is no way to counter that in pvp.

Thankfully more and more folks are starting to complain and take notice of this topic, as well as numerous other issues with this shallow game. I've already unsubbed a second time myself and my time runs out soon. Though I haven't logged in for a few weeks and already uninstalled. Sadly there isn't another MMORPG out that interest me for pvp at all, and I'm well over WoW's PvP after almost 7 years of it.

I keep checking back here to see if they are ironing out all the client side hacking invisible, speed, levitating cheaters - I promise you they will be in pvp soon enough since they are getting away with it in PVE, what's stopping them? As soon as they get bored chopping on logs and picking flowers they will move to pvp land with all those hacks.

Add very limited combat (blocking and dodging gets old after a while and the newness wears off), over zealous maintenance team, and last but not least animation canceling based combat - This game will be free to play by Christmas.

/peace and keep up the good fight. This combat system needs fixed.

Venithar

can we get rid of the animation canceling yet?

psufan5

The game will never be balanced if this issue isn't fixed. it is clearly NOT intended due to the haste ability in the assassination tree. That ability is supposed to quicken the animations, which given this post, is completely useless.

Thechemicals

It only clips basic attacks. I was here when this thread started, guy was a noob and confused people

Venithar

Thechemicals wrote: »

It only clips basic attacks. I was here when this thread started, guy was a noob and confused people

personally, idc what it "clips" it is still a bug that needs fixed

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Fix this damn bug.

That is why, now I use the slow 2H weapon, I can cancel an attack trying to block and the next style attack is doing more damage than normal.

Or when try to block, next attack towards me is always dodged (with the animation moving to the side) after I followed up a cancelled style attack.

omegax99

Since there is a built in priority on what moves can be clipped by what, how can anyone consider this a bug? If any move's animation could be clipped by any other move, I would understand, but this is not the case.

I realize this is a completely different game i'm comparing it to, but look at Street Fighter. Light moves are clipped by medium moves, medium by heavy, heavy by special moves, and special moves by super/ultra moves. That's very similar to what's going on here.

Since there is no GCD and ZoS has said there "never" will be (pretty sure I read that somewhere) then having to wait through the entire animation would essentially be a global cooldown except worse, because it would be a different cooldown for each ability depending on its animation sequence. Some of the animations are pretty wacky, and it would be very hard to keep all of the skills balanced properly and still have any kind of animation left. I can't even imagine running Trials if this was changed, the entire game would have to be tuned down (on the PVE side obviously).

I understand where you guys are coming from, but is this really a problem that has been heavily abused in PVP? I don't know that I've died to anyone in PVP from what seemed like macros and three abilities hitting me at once multiple times in a row.

Paladin_echo1

Also I think they knew about this quite a bit. That's why I noticed my heavy attack when I tried that for the 2nd heavy attack was definitely less damage than from what is being said here. They definitely accounted for if you did not charge your heavy attack to maximum.

Blade_07

Reavan wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Uhh its PvP its was a waste of time before these exploits it will be long after, how are people not understand PvP in all games is a joke its no different here ...sheesh

Just because your reactions and thought pasterns suck does not mean PVP in general in every game sucks.
Keep playing against that challenging scripted ''''AI'''' though.
Sure is hard.

Bash does need fixed along with a great many things from DK's banner, Vamps ultimate, destro staff 5. Etc Etc.

PvP dose suck horribly!!!!! Its ALWAYS unbalanced and always has been that way in RPG's. You can deny it all you want but its a FACT that PvP is HIGHLY unbalanced!!!! I totally & completely HATE PvP....that can not and will not ever be over stated!!! In almost all situations where there is PvP your either getting ganked or your ganking, one or the other! Please go ahead and deny it and say that is not so but me and other people that hate PvP know the truth and there is nothing nobody could ever say that will convince me that PvP is balanced and fair for everybody!!!! Oh yay......I just got ganked by 6 players....whoo hooo, that was soooooooooooo much damn fun!!!! I'm trying to quest/farm and I get ganked, that just ruins MY game and tics me off cuz there was totally nothing I could do to prevent it! 2 or more on 1 sucks and is extremely frustrating to the 1 guy by him or her self! Yeah, but you hardcore PvP'ers get your jollies off by going around in a group killing single players cuz its easy and you enjoy grieving other players. CHEAP & SICK minded of you guys that do that! "I'm so cool and bad *** when I PvP"....yeah right!
And in the very rare cases where you are 1 v 1, one of the players is almost always OP to the other player! Its almost never balanced...PERIOD! So, really how is that suppose to good fun? Oh sure you PvP'ers LOVE it just cuz its unbalanced in your favor and unfair in almost every situation. Also love the situations where I'm fighting 1 or more mobs and some person thinks its OK and cool to attack me cuz I'm busy with a mob or more. It = a easy kill for them and they just love it that way. So, I ask how is it any different from a PvE'er in a stand point of difficulty? PvE person enjoys the level of challenges he or she gets from PvE & a PvE person in almost ALL cases has it easy cuz its so easy to run around in a large group and gank single players. WTH is so hard about that??? Huh? Seriousy, how is that hard???? You PvP'ers are always saying the PvE'ers like it easy but in all reality most of you PvP'ers are the ones who like it easy. Hypocrites! You mock use PvE's cuz you think we dont like a REAL challenge but you your self's got it completely easy for the most part! What challenge is there running in a group and smashing single players? NONE!!!
Now I do realize that not all PvP is just groups running around killing single players. It can be groups against other groups and I think that is actually fun and I have enjoyed it like that. And I have REALLY enjoyed PvP that is in a area where players can go back to a place where you cant be attacked by the apposing faction. So, if things get to a point where your about to get ganked by multiple players each faction has a place to retreat to and be safe. Kinda tends to even things out a bit and make it actually fun.
Oh, and there are those that like to hack as well just so they can win almost all the time! Easy to find them...they kill you instantly! Love those guys soooo much! They just help add to the point why PvP is so unbalanced. So glad that Zenimax set PvP up the way they have! Players are not FORCED into PvP that they dont want. A lot of massively sized zones to enjoy PvE in and not get grieved by some PvP'er!!! And you PvP'ers can just gank away and get that easy kill that makes you think your so tough! ~.^ So, its a win win for everybody.

I'm sorry if the truth hurts you PvP'ers but I needed to instantly vent this in a hardcore way! And please dont bother trying to convince me I'm wrong cuz #1 I know exactly how PvP works cuz I have done lots of it way to long to be told any different and #2 I dont plan on coming back to this thread to even waste my time. I know I'm correct so I really have nothing else to say. Flame away cuz I know you will. The truth dose sting so yeah go right ahead.

Cheers! ~.^

omegax99

Blade_07 wrote: »

PvP dose suck horribly!!!!! Its ALWAYS unbalanced and always has been that way in RPG's. You can deny it all you want but its a FACT that PvP is HIGHLY unbalanced!!!!

and on and on and on and on.. and on.

You don't like PVP? Good for you.. don't play it. Pretty simple. Why would you waste time to write that miserably long post that no one will read?

It sounds like you're just bad at it and don't want to put in the work to get better. I'm not even that big into PVP, but I at least know I've got to work at it to get better if I want to compete.

Grim13

Had a NB Blinding Flurry me 4 times in approx. 1.5 seconds... hmmm...

Phinix1

omegax99 wrote: »

You don't like PVP? Good for you.. don't play it. Pretty simple. Why would you waste time to write that miserably long post that no one will read?

It sounds like you're just bad at it and don't want to put in the work to get better. I'm not even that big into PVP, but I at least know I've got to work at it to get better if I want to compete.

This ability cancel thing has me concerned for the long-term survival of "competitive" PVP in this game. While I do weave in LIGHT attacks before all my spells in PVE because I consider that to be working as intended, it would not be difficult to envision people using a macro program to chain HUGE sequences of abilities to fire off insane burst in a game-breaking way, and I WOULD consider THAT to be cheating.

Using any 3rd party software to automate any aspect of the game is against the TOS and could get you BANNED.

Yet if this is being done on a massive scale I see PVP quickly descending less into a competitive e-sport and more a contest of who can build the best macro script to cheat their way to "victory."

tomiffseb17_ESO

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Using any 3rd party software to automate any aspect of the game is against the TOS and could get you BANNED.

This is why i hated so much this game at the start. The lack of displayed information by default, and that you NEED to use addons even for the most basic things to know!! (how much do i even hit for lol?) I denied to use them till veteran rank 2. So far i am only using 1, to track and improve my dps, the hp of mobs and so on. Whenever the game starts without the addon running i feel like i left home for work naked. I do understand it give us more options to customize things, but come on most games offer tons of custimization options for GUI and still showing you the basic things you would want to know.

To somehow connect this post to the topic i do believe there are addons out there that do automated mechanics (like the one sending the loot automatically to someone else to never get invetory full?) so at this point yes many can be out there using macros for many stuffs. And tbh in every genre(mmo/fps) macro > player skill.
To be Competitive use macros and only spam 1 button instead of actually play?
No thank you ill pass that, but many other will not, and on the long term the regular players can get bored with that.

But!! i do know i can get better with levels, better gears and who knows with what else? Even if i had to top tier armor/weapon + dps combo i could fail easily, because there is always someone who is better / more dedicated / etc then i am. But hey real life is the same.

Also making macros does not seems so bad in this game then in many others,
personally i did not even know i am animation cancelling almost all the way, because somehow it is worked how it should. Someone said street fighter earlier. And he was right. I did played some mmo games and in every single one of thoose whenever i wanted to use an ability, a skill, or anything that not considered a light attack i was able to. And that is how it should be. Specials/skills > regular/light attacks.

More of the regular pvpers frustration comes from being lower in level.
Yes there is a boost but i do think every one of use know it is not making that much boost as it supposed to be (at least i always had this feeling). Also ZoS handling this quite like a boss in my opinion as they are making vet and non vet campaigns aswell. Thoose should be more balanced. Also, its an MMO, so to make every class perfectly balanced and equal it could easily take years. Without a joke. The only mmo i really loved before this even adjusted and balanced things even after 8 years!!

TLDR: i have no real problems with this and sorry for the long post, i am on a nightshift, 4th night, 11th hour..

GreyBrow

What would be really nice is if a f***ing developer could actually F***ing address this.

Daethz

Yeah animation canceling exploit is probably a game-killer, FYI.
Never seen it a fraction as bad as it is in ESO on any other game, ever.

Anastasia

GreyBrow wrote: »

What would be really nice is if a f***ing developer could actually F***ing address this.

---

Exactly!

Any input please?! @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

@ZOS_BrianWheeler‌

@ZOS_NickKronkle

Rodario

I'd also like to see an official response to this.

Rodario

Other than "We did not expect this", that is. I'd like to know if this is staying and we should get used to it, or if it will be fixed soon.

Attorneyatlawl

Rodario wrote: »

Other than "We did not expect this", that is. I'd like to know if this is staying and we should get used to it, or if it will be fixed soon.

There's nothing to fix... they unintentionally designed it in and are now leaving it alone because it's an integral part of their current combat system.

Daethz

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Rodario wrote: »

Other than "We did not expect this", that is. I'd like to know if this is staying and we should get used to it, or if it will be fixed soon.

There's nothing to fix... they unintentionally designed it in and are now leaving it alone because it's an integral part of their current combat system.

Its game breaking, and if its not they need to fix it so you don't need to use third party systems for macros to get the best out of it.

The entire development team needs to be focused on fixing animations.
And if they need help they should call in dev teams from Bethesda, Zenimax, ID and other Zenimax Subsidiarys.

Even if the entire combat system of ESO has to be rebuilt from the ground up, it is needed, or ESO will fail miserably and be a major scar on the entire series and company for the remainder of their existence.

Mujuro

@Daethz Short of a wholesale combat system redesign (e.g., implementation of GCDs), it won't happen. And remember how ZOS boasted about ESO not having GCDs ... so unless some lead designers come out and admit they cluster****ed and do the redesign .... :P

Daethz

Mujuro wrote: »

@Daethz Short of a wholesale combat system redesign (e.g., implementation of GCDs), it won't happen. And remember how ZOS boasted about ESO not having GCDs ... so unless some lead designers come out and admit they cluster****ed and do the redesign .... :P

Than I guess I will suggest all ESO players macro all of their buttons.

Attorneyatlawl

Daethz wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Rodario wrote: »

Other than "We did not expect this", that is. I'd like to know if this is staying and we should get used to it, or if it will be fixed soon.

There's nothing to fix... they unintentionally designed it in and are now leaving it alone because it's an integral part of their current combat system.

Its game breaking, and if its not they need to fix it so you don't need to use third party systems for macros to get the best out of it.

The entire development team needs to be focused on fixing animations.
And if they need help they should call in dev teams from Bethesda, Zenimax, ID and other Zenimax Subsidiarys.

Even if the entire combat system of ESO has to be rebuilt from the ground up, it is needed, or ESO will fail miserably and be a major scar on the entire series and company for the remainder of their existence.

You don't need to use a macro when the window for using it is about a full second... it's easy to do, and the timing involved is such that lag or even just needing to move/hit another ability quickly would mess things up if you macro'd it regardless in pvp. There's absolutely zero benefit to macroing animation cancelling and eso's combat system works 100% great as far as this mechanic is concerned.