** Major Combat Flaw - Animation Canceling/Damage Stacking - Devs Please Look Here **

Thechemicals

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

Clipping in Mortal Kombat was done with every character and especially with Raiden and Johnny Cage and Kung Lao. Clipping has been around in multiplayer/pvp since streetfighter and before. That this is a problem for you means you have likely been the victim of skilled clippers all your life. With all due respect, you really need to learn 2 play. I can tell you this, its not an exploit and will not be changed.

^^^ This guy, Reread my last post man. You keep comparing console game play to MMORPGS. They are a very, very, very, *repeat it with me*, very different beast.

As far as learn to play. I've been Playing MMORPG's since 1999. I've been actively PVPing for 10 of those 15 years. I'm far from pro, but I can hold my own. I'm also used to playing games that require 35 - 65 key binds to compete, not 9. It's not about L2P..I want a fun and effective PVP system. That's all.. Thanks

I was Lord Vader from atlantic shard in UO. top pvp murder board for the first 2 years of that games release and i did it with tinker boxes. I also still have a private server guild in UO called the Trinsic Guard, its one of the last organized pvp guild left in UO.I have been there and done it all in fps/rts/mmo. Team Liquid, Gravity, Veritas in WoW, and i could rock this game in all its aspects but instead im giving my time to teach my wife and friends and players on the forum how to play and have fun.

The conclusion is that you need to learn the mechanics of the game before you jump to conclusions. No dev has responded to this thread because this is not an exploit. Thanks for coming.

WitchAngel

Thechemicals wrote: »

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

Clipping in Mortal Kombat was done with every character and especially with Raiden and Johnny Cage and Kung Lao. Clipping has been around in multiplayer/pvp since streetfighter and before. That this is a problem for you means you have likely been the victim of skilled clippers all your life. With all due respect, you really need to learn 2 play. I can tell you this, its not an exploit and will not be changed.

^^^ This guy, Reread my last post man. You keep comparing console game play to MMORPGS. They are a very, very, very, *repeat it with me*, very different beast.

As far as learn to play. I've been Playing MMORPG's since 1999. I've been actively PVPing for 10 of those 15 years. I'm far from pro, but I can hold my own. I'm also used to playing games that require 35 - 65 key binds to compete, not 9. It's not about L2P..I want a fun and effective PVP system. That's all.. Thanks

I was Lord Vader from atlantic shard in UO. top pvp murder board for the first 2 years of that games release and i did it with tinker boxes. I also still have a private server guild in UO called the Trinsic Guard, its one of the last organized pvp guild left in UO.I have been there and done it all in fps/rts/mmo. Team Liquid, Gravity, Veritas in WoW, and i could rock this game in all its aspects but instead im giving my time to teach my wife and friends and players on the forum how to play and have fun.

The conclusion is that you need to learn the mechanics of the game before you jump to conclusions. No dev has responded to this thread because this is not an exploit. Thanks for coming.

Your conclusion is most likely wrong. As I already said:
Nobody in their sane minds would intentionally create such a mechanic. The mechanic is most likely here because of lack of creativity / ability to make it any different. It's most likely buried deep in the code, and lot's of other coding relies on this flawed mechanic. So if they had to fix it, they would have to redo a hell of a lot coding, not just the coding directly involved in this.

But hey, keep on imagining that it is intentional, and not because a fix would require an insane amount of work hours, they simply can't divert from anywhere else.

Shillen

I don't see a problem with this at all. This really wasn't difficult to figure out. I was doing this without even realizing it. It's just something you figure out after playing for a little while. Once again, I fail to see the problem. Games have always been about rotating abilities.

Kalston

lol, it only butchers the combat system and makes it a boring spamfest. Sure it's all fine and 100% skill based!

Being able to interrupt animations is great and adds depth to the gameplay. On the other hand getting the full effects of your abilities while skipping the animations is horribly wrong and broken. Doesn't take a genius to realize that. It's even worse when you can merge different abilities together and unleash them all at once.

I was attracted to this game because of the real time combat with active blocking and interrupting and light/heavy attacks (a very simplified version of the gameplay you get in games like Mount & Blade or Chivalry) but right now the combat looks and feels terrible with pvpers who know what they are doing. Yes I skip animations like hell too, but it is still completely broken and not what I signed up for. *actually I just unsubbed, just gonna wait until my free month runs out.

Kililin

While i think this is a good mechanic and can be used for skillfull play, i do not think it was completely thought through by devs.

It unbalances skills, some skills need adjustment when this mechanic is taken into account.
One example of the top off my head would be rapid strikes, blocking not only cancels the animation of this skill but all damage ticks also.
So this skill is garbage, it is not great without this problem to begin with.

Unbalanced in a char vs char sense it is not.

There needs to be a decision if it is intended or not and balanced according to the decision.

Kyotee0071

Shillen wrote: »

I don't see a problem with this at all. This really wasn't difficult to figure out. I was doing this without even realizing it. It's just something you figure out after playing for a little while. Once again, I fail to see the problem. Games have always been about rotating abilities.

I'm all for rotating abilities..

Please read a post earlier about rotating abilities..I'm all for it. What am not for is skipping combat animations and the abilities still firing off

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

I don't think you should be able fire off your light attack and instant cast ability and bash at the same time for large damage spikes with no animation from skills that are damaging people. How is your opponent supposed to counter it? How is that skillful?

Wouldn't it be more skillful to actually have to land your light attack, followed by your instant cast. It's called chaining abilities, using your resources, letting them pool back up...A nice flow of combat. If you didn't want your light attack to go off once you fired it, you could quickly tap your block button to cancel the light attack, and fire off another ability...That's skill. That's using your head, and your reflexes. And takes way more skill than hitting 5,6, Middle mouse button in less than a second and abusing animation cancels, or worse yet having a macro handle it for you.

If you started a light attack, the animation should be forced to finish unless you hit BLOCK to avoid a big ability or heavy attack - or too simply cancel the attack and fire off something more optimal. And upon canceling the attack, the damage should not go off from the light attack. Then you could quickly use your instant cast ability after the block, or a heavy attack if it was optimal..That is more skillful to me than hitting 3 buttons in rapid succession to fire them off.

I was on my baby sorcerer the other day and I was canceling my Crystal Frag cast ability by tapping my block often.. Block cancels the cast..so by quickly tapping block during the cast I could void the longer cast and throw out my instant cast thunder spell to take a low hp mob down. That's an example of skill using the system that works with no cooldown. I'm all for it. I love it. I was not stacking damage by animation canceling. There was an animation for my Crystal cast, a brief animation for my quick block to cancel the cast, and an animation for my thunder spell (the execute instant cast). It was smooth, fluid, and engaging.

Let's be honest, anyone can fire off the 3 abilities in question without a macro with a little practice, it's not hard. I'm still trying to see how it's skillful game play to quickly hit 3 buttons in succession. Old school Mortal Kombat combos were way harder to pull off. The skill involved to do it isn't the topic at hand. It's the animation canceling, 3 skills firing off at once (practically), and lastly, bash (with the passives) being so powerful really puts this over the top.

Kyotee0071

WitchAngel wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

Clipping in Mortal Kombat was done with every character and especially with Raiden and Johnny Cage and Kung Lao. Clipping has been around in multiplayer/pvp since streetfighter and before. That this is a problem for you means you have likely been the victim of skilled clippers all your life. With all due respect, you really need to learn 2 play. I can tell you this, its not an exploit and will not be changed.

Your conclusion is most likely wrong. As I already said:
Nobody in their sane minds would intentionally create such a mechanic. The mechanic is most likely here because of lack of creativity / ability to make it any different. It's most likely buried deep in the code, and lot's of other coding relies on this flawed mechanic. So if they had to fix it, they would have to redo a hell of a lot coding, not just the coding directly involved in this.

But hey, keep on imagining that it is intentional, and not because a fix would require an insane amount of work hours, they simply can't divert from anywhere else.

I'm not sure arguing game play mechanics with a guy that considers DCUO, Mortal Combat, and other Console games to have Deep or Balanced PvP.

I don't think he get's it. Thanks for trying. I mean look at the video he linked earlier of some cheesy game where the pvp involved absolutely no movement of any kind, just hitting combos.. Some folks like the fighting game style of pvp I guess. Others, that have been actually pvping in real mmos for years know the difference.

Kyotee0071

Shillen wrote: »

I don't see a problem with this at all. This really wasn't difficult to figure out. I was doing this without even realizing it. It's just something you figure out after playing for a little while. Once again, I fail to see the problem. Games have always been about rotating abilities.

You are right it is very easy to figure out, I'd say give a 5 year old a couple minutes and they could mash 3 buttons in the correct order easily to pull it off over and over. There is no skill involved. It's not a skill issue.

Using speed hacks wouldn't be hard to figure out, or warping, or invis, but that doesn't mean it would be good for the game's overall game play. Correct?

Soliduparrow

If you cancel the skill damage when blocking, then no one would ever block. They would have to change blocking to block all of the damage, otherwise you would be better off just kiting and dodging.

This isnt OP until someone comes up with a skill combination that will give them endless stamina.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

OP doesnt realize this is the norm for "actiony" combat mmos.

Kyotee0071

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

OP doesnt realize this is the norm for "actiony" combat mmos.

Maybe you are right Ragnar. Honestly. (By the way, love your name xD)

The first "actiony" combat mmo I played was GW2. I'm not aware of anyway to fire off 3 abilities in a millisecond in that game, or animation skipping for attacks. I guess I have missed a lot of mmo's that maybe had combat like this one? And since no devs have responded. I guess it also isn't an issue.

I give in...and just going to enjoy the game while my sub last..then see if I renew. Leaning towards renewing if they get a grasp on the bots and spammers.

I wouldn't let this combat style stop me from playing - because I can very easily pull off the animation canceling myself..and I do enjoy the combat a lot.

Thank you all for your input everyone.

and too @Thechemicals - even though we disagreed. I do respect your input and opinions.

Happy gaming all..see you on the battlefield.

[b/recommends letting the thread Die since it doesn't appear to be an issue.

Desdemonte

Animations are a cooldown of their own. Bypassing them is an exploit that needs to be fixed. This shield bash cheat is simply ridonculous. It's obviously not WAI and anyone who thinks or says so is either delusional or a *** player that doesn't want their god mode removed. Learn to play without cheats sissies.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Thank you all for the details in this thread. We're looking into this.

Kililin

Desdemonte wrote: »

Animations are a cooldown of their own. Bypassing them is an exploit that needs to be fixed. This shield bash cheat is simply ridonculous. It's obviously not WAI and anyone who thinks or says so is either delusional or a *** player that doesn't want their god mode removed. Learn to play without cheats sissies.

i dont even...

It is no cheat, it is not unbalanced because everyone can use it, block is a basic ability of your toon, as are basic attacks. Maybe it is not working as intended, but thats up to the devs to decide.

Kyotee0071

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thank you all for the details in this thread. We're looking into this.

Woah, awesome. Thank you for your response @Zos_JessicaFolsom . At least we know it's being looked at, and maybe you can inform us later of their findings as in if it's an intended mechanic or not.

crush83

I'll probably quit the game for sure if they change this. It seems like an intended mechanic to be honest. It encourages learning how to use skills in conjunction - combo moves if you will.

Sinoby

crush83 wrote: »

I'll probably quit the game for sure if they change this. It seems like an intended mechanic to be honest. It encourages learning how to use skills in conjunction - combo moves if you will.

I can't understand how can it seem to be intended mechanic. Being able to fire off ability without proper completion of simple attack is just wrong. Block and bash overriding animations of abilities and atacks are fine for this type of combat, but not ability to deal damage from 3 sources at very short time, when in normal just one animation will be complete.

crush83

Sinoby wrote: »

I can't understand how can it seem to be intended mechanic. Being able to fire off ability without proper completion of simple attack is just wrong. Block and bash overriding animations of abilities and atacks are fine for this type of combat, but not ability to deal damage from 3 sources at very short time, when in normal just one animation will be complete.

That's just where we will disagree. I see it as a combo-type system. You see it as a bug. Until I hear the developers label it a bug, I'm going to keep doing it.

All they've said is they are looking into it. That isn't confirmation that it is a bug.

gnostici

I thought this was a feature, not a bug.

Doing this properly by hand takes timing, caution, and practice. It's easy to mess up the timing, focusing on it too much can lead to missing cues in the environment (other enemies encroaching, etc), it's still governed by magicka and stamina, and swapping abilities leads to mistakes when fast keystrokes have been trained (versatility is sacrificed until the player's skill is built up through practice).

Further, in PvP it's rare that it can even be used; only when the opponent is completely still and you're in close quarter combat range. In combination with the spammed talons, this is problematic, granted.

These overrides are tiered. They have an order. Programs don't just organize themselves. The animation cancelling itself is a feature, not a bug. If anything actually needs changed here, shield bash needs to be toned down a bit. I say that as a shield user.

Personally, I think the overrides feel like combos and I think they add an interesting and fun kind of active play. It's better than just watching animations fire in sequence, involves skill. This is one of the things that helps to distinguish ESO from your standard spell gem/hotbar MMO, and it would be a mistake to remove it entirely.

edit: Addons should not be able to activate block, much less bash. They're not supposed to play the game for you.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Wow another case of bad players working to make a game easy mode everyone is special and wins.

Kyotee0071

I hate to beat a dead horse, but as I've personally stated and gave examples on of chaining combat moves and using block/bash to cancel an ability (as long as the canceled ability actually was just that "canceled") - then firing off another ability as needed.

I am all for combos and chaining abilities together. The only reason an animation (and damage/ability) should be canceled is if you quickly tapped block or bash...that would be a fluid combat system. That would take some reflexes/skill, and situational awareness.

1) An animation for first ability
2) a very quick animation for block/bash to cancel #1 (with no damage firing off from #1 as well)
3) Use next needed ability/attack as needed...

Example:

A sorcerer starts to cast the ability with a cast time with the animation - Crystal Shard. During the cast time the opponent's health suddenly drops below 20 % because of other damage. You quickly tap your block mid cast/canceling the cast. A very fast animation goes off for the block. Then you follow up immediately with Mage's Fury with the awesome animation firing off. No animations skipped. Took reaction / reflex / thinking from the sorcerer. It was fun, engaging, and rewarding combat.

It all can be done without the "animation canceling and damage still firing off on canceled abilities issue" described in the original post.

Also with bash not doing damage, but instead acting like an actual interrupt and/or maybe even a stagger during interrupt with passives would really hinder the stacking 3 damage abilities for more damage while skipping animations problem.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

I hate to beat a dead horse, but as I've personally stated and gave examples on of chaining combat moves and using block/bash to cancel an ability - then firing off another ability as needed. I am all for combos and chaining abilities together. The only reason an animation should be canceled is if you quickly tapped block or bash...that would be a fluid combat system. That would take some reflexes/skill, and situational awareness.

1) An animation for first ability
2) a very quick animation for block to cancel #1 (with no damage firing off)
3) Use next needed ability as needed...

Example:

A sorcerer starts to cast the ability with a cast time with the animation - Crystal Shard. During the cast time the opponent's health suddenly drops below 20 % because of other damage. You quickly tap your block mid cast/canceling the cast. A very fast animation goes off for the block. Then you follow up immediately with Mage's Fury with the awesome animation firing off. No animations skipped. Took reaction / reflex / thinking from the sorcerer. It was fun, engaging, and rewarding combat.

It all can be done without the "animation canceling and damage still firing off on canceled abilities issue" described in the original post.

Also with bash not doing damage, but instead acting like an actual interrupt and/or maybe even a stagger during interrupt with passives would really hinder the stacking 3 damage abilities for more damage while skipping animations problem.

I see what you did there, turn this into a nerf bash thread.

ragamerb16_ESO

PvPers using macros... That's nothing new... The most common skillz those L2P "PvP masters" have.

Abuse the system so you can get an advantage and remain silent about it to keep such advantage.

To the OP, this particular "combos", that are far more than what are discussed here, have been reported on the Beta... But as with many other things, were "lost" in the launch rush.

And ppl saying they were "intended", over the years I think is just the excuse cheaters tell themselves to keep thinking they have something "special" or are particularly good at something.

/sarcasm on

Let me guess... I'm sure you did report ALL the other skill animations that couldn't be interrupted as bugs, right?

And I'm also 110% sure you are doing this all the time manually without the help of "external tools".

/sarcasm off

iaintoff

The whole argument rest on the unproven assumption that animations equate to gcd, all this thread has demonstrated is that the assumption is incorrect.

Kyotee0071

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Wow another case of bad players working to make a game easy mode everyone is special and wins.

Bad players.. Man keep patting yourself on the back if you think hitting light attack, followed by an instant cast ability, followed by bash is hard. That's 1,2, Middle mouse button for me on my razer naga. It's a cakewalk buddy.

Keep telling yourself you are skillful. I can pull it off with my eyes shut while drinking a cold beer. But yeah, we can never reach your skill level.

This post isn't about being owned, beat, or skill. It's about a pitiful mechanic that anyone actually "good at pvp" would want looked into so the pvp can be quality, not cheese mode.

But you keep on thinking you are skilled for pressing (bet you are a clicker by the way) 1,2,3 and skipping every animation but bash while firing off 3 damaging abilities.

grizzbi

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thank you all for the details in this thread. We're looking into this.

I'm glad you're taking this seriously. I'm sad you seem to need a video so that it "really" looks like an obvious exploit many people can then do by themselves. The subject has already been discussed on these forum and there are more on reddit.

If I'm wrong and if you were actually already looking into it, then my apologies.

Charg

Yeah! @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ is on the job!

wraith808

grizzbi wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thank you all for the details in this thread. We're looking into this.

I'm glad you're taking this seriously. I'm sad you seem to need a video so that it "really" looks like an obvious exploit many people can then do by themselves. The subject has already been discussed on these forum and there are more on reddit.

If I'm wrong and if you were actually already looking into it, then my apologies.

Looks like a response because they were pinged, not necessarily because they needed the video. Even with the backhanded apology, however, it seems that replies like this perhaps are the reason they don't do it as a matter of course.

grizzbi

wraith808 wrote: »

grizzbi wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thank you all for the details in this thread. We're looking into this.

I'm glad you're taking this seriously. I'm sad you seem to need a video so that it "really" looks like an obvious exploit many people can then do by themselves. The subject has already been discussed on these forum and there are more on reddit.

If I'm wrong and if you were actually already looking into it, then my apologies.

Looks like a response because they were pinged, not necessarily because they needed the video. Even with the backhanded apology, however, it seems that replies like this perhaps are the reason they don't do it as a matter of course.

I must agree with you

wraith808

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

This post isn't about being owned, beat, or skill. It's about a pitiful mechanic that anyone actually "good at pvp" would want looked into so the pvp can be quality, not cheese mode.

But you keep on thinking you are skilled for pressing (bet you are a clicker by the way) 1,2,3 and skipping every animation but bash while firing off 3 damaging abilities.

If you actually canceled the ability, it wouldn't be a combo. It would only be an interrupt. It actually involves a bit of skill if you aren't using light attack. For example, if you're stealthed and need to sneak up to get in range to charge the heavy attack and let it charge for long enough to do the bash.

In all truth, I think it's only the ability to make bash super effective by the way of enchants that makes this even possibly a problem.

And as far as the hyperbole of anyone actually good at pvp would want it looked at- you're entitled to your opinion of the mechanic, just as everyone else is. That doesn't make anyone's opinion worth less or more in the case.

Your original post taken in context from Kitsuu shows that it was an educational video, not a complaint video- to show how it worked, not to bug it. So in that, you're on different wavelengths. Are you saying that the person that did your research isn't "good at pvp"? I don't think you are... but that's a direct correlation to perhaps show that the hyperbole isn't needed, even when perhaps antagonized by another poster.