** Major Combat Flaw - Animation Canceling/Damage Stacking - Devs Please Look Here **

Halrloprillalar

Not really seeing this in game (sorc) as any time I try this it cancels the animation without the ability going off (crystal shards). *** that everyone else seems to be able to do it though.

Kyotee0071

doug_martin05b14_ESO wrote: »

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

mcconnell2_ESO wrote: »

I've been casting the NB ultimate "soul tether" all day without any animation at all. normally you rise up in the air and cast the spell. It takes a few secs and roots you in place. If I tap bash immediately then I dont even see the skill go off but it does the damage.

People should be tapping bash/block after every skill with an animation.

So much this? Still don't see a problem with the game's mechanics?

I just tried this in-game, and while it's easy to do there is no way a right-minded Dev would intend this to be in their game as a mechanic and be taken seriously. This would be severely detrimental to the health of the game when it seems that an exploit of the game's core combat mechanics is what will set good and bad players apart - specifically in PvP. The worst part is I don't see this being an easy/quick fix unless they can just somehow add a GCD overlay to all skills on the 1-5 + ultimate between casts no matter what you do. However, with there already being some issues with the animations of skills, weapon swap not firing, and/or get other skills to fire off it'll be interesting what a fix would actually look like (which also just makes the issue raised in this thread look even worse IMO).

Again, while this can be achieved with relative ease, I do not think the game is meant to be played this way, nor do I think a majority want to play the game this way. I know I, for one, do not as the game already seemed a bit spammy before I even tried this out, especially in PvP. At least stop trying to defend it by saying it's something that will/should separate the skilled from the unskilled; that just sounds selfish and purposely turning a blind eye to the impact it will have on the game in it's entirety.

Thank you so much. You know exactly where I, and many others are coming from. Yet you will still get people here saying "it's skillful" game play. I fail to see how it is skillful at all. It is "cheesing" the game mechanics. I also agree that this is not the way the developers intended the combat system to be.

squshy7

I actually discovered this the other day while farming mudcrabs; I noticed I could wind up a heavy attack while sneaking, and about half way through the animation hit my key for concealed wep; the end result? Both attacks happened back-to-back very quickly, and both got the sneak bonus.

But you see, there's a problem with this, because it IS a bug and it's not supposed to work this way, and results in this issue: it messes up the amount my stam and mag will replenish to. Not my max amount, but after performing this exploit my stam and mag will only regen to a certain amount (about 90%); and the more I keep doing it, the less and less that number gets.

So, from where I'm standing in my own personal experience discovering this bug, it's not so big of a deal. I certainly am not going to use this in PvP knowing my stam and mag will be messed up until I relog.

grizzbi

So, during all those years, in the whole dev team, not a single one had the idea to test the cancel animation glitch to see if people could exploit this? Or at least ask for a very high security level and a strict official policy against macro for obvious reason ? I still can't believe that. really. There must be something...

kevjon74_ESO

Terrible. Despicable. Inconceivable!

um, what macro program was that again?

squshy7 wrote: »

But you see, there's a problem with this, because it IS a bug and it's not supposed to work this way, and results in this issue: it messes up the amount my stam and mag will replenish to. Not my max amount, but after performing this exploit my stam and mag will only regen to a certain amount (about 90%); and the more I keep doing it, the less and less that number gets.

Whoah, kidding aside, I've noticed my stat bars not replenishing fully when grouping in dungeons, usually after a fast and furious fight. If you're right, then I've been doing this in the heat of battle without really realizing it.

WitchAngel

The top players of this game are those who:
- Duped, where as several techniques has been shown possible - (perhaps they got banned, but many many dupers got unbanned right away)
- Exploited skill point by getting "free" skill points.
- Exploiting the animation skipping.

These guys have a ton of skillpoints, have maxed out their gear, have a wallet so thick it's laughable, and kill people in 1-2 seconds by abusing this mechanic described in this thread.
This make PvP very appealing to non-cheaters/exploiters....right?

PvP is the only thing which could make this game last in the long run, and it's completely borked now.

If I am to resub to this game, I need all the above fixed, and a complete server reset.

I doubt either will happen.

Wildstar Beta weekend coming up...yeah, they will have trouble too, but I don't think they will have the record-breaking pile of bugs at launch that ESO has.

LordSock

Not sure if said but simple fix would be to have the ability fire at the end of the animation not the beginning. And leave things as they are for block/bash purposes.

Kyotee0071

Edited because I was responding to a quote about Wildstar Beta - and well - I didn't want to get this thread off topic

Jade1986

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

mcconnell2_ESO wrote: »

You can bash the air. If you keybind it to a separate key it is really easy. Then you wont see the skill animation or the bash animation as long as you only tap the key.

There is no cooldown essentially. the bashes cancel the bashes animation a and anything else. Ive been completely emptying both my stamina and magicka bars within like 10 secs by spamming this way. You can get a huge number of skills off with the resource bars being the only limiter.

Again, a perfect example from the person quoted above me. The burst potential must be huge in those 10 seconds, and the only animation showing is bash - which is extremely quick. Yet he is emptying his magicka bar - so skills are firing off with not one single animation from them?

An example of the burst below:

Just watch the burst here against V rank opponents in pvp..Watch the HP bars disappear in a matter of seconds. Most opponents can't even respond. They die within the knock down or stun..Is that the kind of PVP folks want to have?

Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

That literally made me want to say *** pvp till this is fixed. There is no way to counter that at all, and it is obviously an exploit / bug no matter what anyone says. the only people that would defend this are people that rely on it in PVP and cant play otherwise.

sSolutionSs

Wow this is a HUGE Broken mechanic. If this becomes part of the norm pvp and not fixed Im 100% out of this game. Keyword=If

Kyotee0071

laced wrote: »

That literally made me want to say *** pvp till this is fixed. There is no way to counter that at all, and it is obviously an exploit / bug no matter what anyone says. the only people that would defend this are people that rely on it in PVP and cant play otherwise.

*insert something constructive here because I failed* Lol.../sorry

Arreyanne

I can already hear it already just like DCUO, "It makes the combat faster.It's working as intended. This will slow the combat down. "

I guess the next thing that will be found is Jump cancelling abilities

Jump canceling and Animation clipping should be a banable offense. If the dev's didnt want the animations to play they would not have put them in in the first place.

Also if clipping is going to be blessed by the dev's then this game is as stupid as DCUO

grizzbi

just lock this topic: we are all wasting our time.
Or just let it die.

WitchAngel

grizzbi wrote: »

just lock this topic: we are all wasting our time.
Or just let it die.

You hate animations, don't ya?
It's working this way because ZoS caught this bug way too late, and already had applied a gazillion of coding, relying on this flawed code. Stuff like this need to be caught before alpha test.
I admit that this is speculation, but this is the only logical explanation I can come up with.

If anyone has a better explanation, I am all ears.

otomodachi

WitchAngel wrote: »

grizzbi wrote: »

just lock this topic: we are all wasting our time.
Or just let it die.

You hate animations, don't ya?
It's working this way because ZoS caught this bug way too late, and already had applied a gazillion of coding, relying on this flawed code. Stuff like this need to be caught before alpha test.
I admit that this is speculation, but this is the only logical explanation I can come up with.

If anyone has a better explanation, I am all ears.

I kinda get where both sides of this are coming from, because I have a terrifying passion for 2d fighting games, where this kind of stuff is how the game works. You learn the cancels to be competitive, it's kind of an established thing in 2d fighters, there's a precedent and in my favourite series, Guilty Gear, a framework built around what I'll just call Cancel Juice.

But, like, it's spelled out there. IF it was a design decision, it should be explicit; like, there should be some tooltips about using it, an NPC somewhere should have a repeatable quest to train people to use it, etc.

It'd be documented, I think.

So I feel like it's probably an oversight in this case, and while I get that it COULD add a layer of play to the game... it'd probably be a bad idea to sneak it in, as it were, whether as an intentional mechanic for players to discover or as an oversight.

Dragos

To all those who think this animation cancel "mechanic" is working as intended, answer me this: where do channeled abilities fit into the equation here? I made a templar and i use the aoe cone channeled spear attack a lot. I cancel the animation quite often to block a heavy attack or to get out of an aoe and it always cancels the damage for the ability as well.

How is it fair that instacast and even cast time abilities can benefit so immensely from cancelling while channeled abilities are left in the dust? Why even have channeled abilities then? Obviously this cancel stuff is vastly superior, so why would anyone who has any semblance of skill rotation optimization even slot a channeled ability?

If you're going to argue that this is working as intended then you have a lot of explaining to do.
1. What about channeled abilities?
2. Why is there no in-game tutorial about this "mechanic"?
3. Why would a game that claims to want to reduce the UI clutter so people have to pay attention to the actual game instead of numbers and bars include a mechanic that makes a character able to cast multiple skills virtually instantly while their character appears to spaz out from block spam cancel?

Until I get solid answers to these questions I will continue to uphold my belief that this cancel business is unintended.

grizzbi

WitchAngel wrote: »

grizzbi wrote: »

just lock this topic: we are all wasting our time.
Or just let it die.

You hate animations, don't ya?

hmhhm what? No I hate animation cancelling used as an exploit and even more when improved by macroing.

Now, many players explained in details, here and there, how and why it is such a problem. In fact they've been doing it for weeks...But when I see an official message like "thanks for your message, you ticket/ feedback has been transfered blablabla" I tend to get nervous those days...That's not anything new: we - new players - discover it. But many players before us, have brought details about that.

I said a few comments ago that I still don't understand how such an important thing got out of the radar and is still in discussion without any real decision/action from Zenimax.

When I say "don't waste your time" it's for you...
I don't know myself why I'm still commenting here...

I tend to try to be positive. But seriously...

grizzbi

Dragos wrote: »

To all those who think this animation cancel "mechanic" is working as intended, answer me this: where do channeled abilities fit into the equation here? I made a templar and i use the aoe cone channeled spear attack a lot. I cancel the animation quite often to block a heavy attack or to get out of an aoe and it always cancels the damage for the ability as well.

How is it fair that instacast and even cast time abilities can benefit so immensely from cancelling while channeled abilities are left in the dust? Why even have channeled abilities then? Obviously this cancel stuff is vastly superior, so why would anyone who has any semblance of skill rotation optimization even slot a channeled ability?

If you're going to argue that this is working as intended then you have a lot of explaining to do.
1. What about channeled abilities?
2. Why is there no in-game tutorial about this "mechanic"?
3. Why would a game that claims to want to reduce the UI clutter so people have to pay attention to the actual game instead of numbers and bars include a mechanic that makes a character able to cast multiple skills virtually instantly while their character appears to spaz out from block spam cancel?

Until I get solid answers to these questions I will continue to uphold my belief that this cancel business is unintended.

And you're absolutely right. It happened in many games and even if the exploiter always try to justify themselves, it's just a shame. Animation clipping has never been a game feature. Never.

Kyotee0071

Dragos wrote: »

To all those who think this animation cancel "mechanic" is working as intended, answer me this: where do channeled abilities fit into the equation here? I made a templar and i use the aoe cone channeled spear attack a lot. I cancel the animation quite often to block a heavy attack or to get out of an aoe and it always cancels the damage for the ability as well.

How is it fair that instacast and even cast time abilities can benefit so immensely from cancelling while channeled abilities are left in the dust? Why even have channeled abilities then? Obviously this cancel stuff is vastly superior, so why would anyone who has any semblance of skill rotation optimization even slot a channeled ability?

If you're going to argue that this is working as intended then you have a lot of explaining to do.
1. What about channeled abilities?
2. Why is there no in-game tutorial about this "mechanic"?
3. Why would a game that claims to want to reduce the UI clutter so people have to pay attention to the actual game instead of numbers and bars include a mechanic that makes a character able to cast multiple skills virtually instantly while their character appears to spaz out from block spam cancel?

Until I get solid answers to these questions I will continue to uphold my belief that this cancel business is unintended.

Imagine what large scale AVA will look like once everyone learns this mechanic, and it won't take long.

All you see in the battle is everyone's character running around spazzing out spamming block/bash with no other animations firing off..I mean if the system stays the same, would that not be the optimal way to compete in PVP? It would probably be the only way to compete honestly.

All these nice animations for abilities they have added to each class would mean nothing. A huge aspect of skillful pvp would be missing.

Meaning: you recognize a skill being used on you, you react in different ways..You might block, you might bash, you might use LOS (line of sight) for a ghetto interrupt, you might counter with a quick shield spell/reflect spell/Heal over time spell. But if you can not see these abilities being performed - how the hell do you counter them?

By the same token, if I'm the one doing the attacking - I want my opponent to have a chance to react to what I'm using. I want competitive pvp. I want that huge rush you get after an awesome fight or 1 v1, 1v2, 1v3.

Can you picture it...50 vs 50...everyone blocking/bashing, blocking/bashing, blocking/bashing...Lol...man that doesn't sound very entertaining.

Soliduparrow

Why does it even matter if it is intended? They cant fix it now because it is in the fabric of all real time action mmos. No animation bugs are what turned street fighter from a childs game into a competitive sport. At least this no animation thing is a step towards fixing the sluggish combat.

WitchAngel

grizzbi wrote: »

WitchAngel wrote: »

grizzbi wrote: »

just lock this topic: we are all wasting our time.
Or just let it die.

You hate animations, don't ya?

hmhhm what? No I hate animation cancelling used as an exploit and even more when improved by macroing.

Now, many players explained in details, here and there, how and why it is such a problem. In fact they've been doing it for weeks...But when I see an official message like "thanks for your message, you ticket/ feedback has been transfered blablabla" I tend to get nervous those days...That's not anything new: we - new players - discover it. But many players before us, have brought details about that.

I said a few comments ago that I still don't understand how such an important thing got out of the radar and is still in discussion without any real decision/action from Zenimax.

When I say "don't waste your time" it's for you...
I don't know myself why I'm still commenting here...

I tend to try to be positive. But seriously...

Letting this thread die, would only serve the purpose of letting the knowledge about this problem die. That's why I answered as I did. Sorry about that.
The forums is way more interesting than playing this game at it's current state. So I check in here regularly. I guess that deep down within, I still believe the game can be fixed, or I wouldn't be bothered posting here at all.

grizzbi

mcconnell2_ESO wrote: »

Why does it even matter if it is intended? They cant fix it now because it is in the fabric of all real time action mmos. No animation bugs are what turned street fighter from a childs game into a competitive sport. At least this no animation thing is a step towards fixing the sluggish combat.

Zenimax doing nothing gives credits and rewards people who exploit broken game mechanics: you're right.
Why would I even discuss about this exploit if the company doesn't care..

Anyway, I think that the combat shouldn't be a dps race with the attacker being the winner. I also think that this really dumb down the game to who use the exploit and who doesn't. In this case, write it on the box when you buy the game:

"discover how to exploit the broken mechanics to get an edge over your opponent"
"Use external modern devices with macro tools to ensure your own victory!"

have you seen that anywhere?

Also where's the diversity? It's not a fps , it's a mmoRPG. We should not be forced to play a DPS role to be competitive.

Have you ever seen a healer or a support in street fighter? This is not Street fighter. Because in street fighter, you have a specific gameplay, balanced for a fair fight, and each opponent begins the fight in front of each other, ready to fight. It also takes time to kill someone.

This game is supposed to be balanced for its own specific gameplay. If you change the rules for some people but not the others, then it's not balanced anymore.

I enjoy fair fights. I'm ok to have my life cut in half in a few seconds. But I want to still have a chance. There's a difference between a difficult fight and no fight at all.

If those exploits become rampant, if you're attacked, EVEN if you do use the same broken mechanics, you'll lose. Because the attacker was the first one, and he'll win the silly dps race. Is that what you want?

Kyotee0071, a few comments above, explain better than I do why you don't want this to happen.

grizzbi

WitchAngel wrote: »

grizzbi wrote: »

WitchAngel wrote: »

grizzbi wrote: »

just lock this topic: we are all wasting our time.
Or just let it die.

You hate animations, don't ya?

hmhhm what? No I hate animation cancelling used as an exploit and even more when improved by macroing.

Now, many players explained in details, here and there, how and why it is such a problem. In fact they've been doing it for weeks...But when I see an official message like "thanks for your message, you ticket/ feedback has been transfered blablabla" I tend to get nervous those days...That's not anything new: we - new players - discover it. But many players before us, have brought details about that.

I said a few comments ago that I still don't understand how such an important thing got out of the radar and is still in discussion without any real decision/action from Zenimax.

When I say "don't waste your time" it's for you...
I don't know myself why I'm still commenting here...

I tend to try to be positive. But seriously...

Letting this thread die, would only serve the purpose of letting the knowledge about this problem die. That's why I answered as I did. Sorry about that.
The forums is way more interesting than playing this game at it's current state. So I check in here regularly. I guess that deep down within, I still believe the game can be fixed, or I wouldn't be bothered posting here at all.

I'm sorry and I do agree with you on the fact that those things would need to be fixed.

Dragos

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

Dragos wrote: »

To all those who think this animation cancel "mechanic" is working as intended, answer me this: where do channeled abilities fit into the equation here? I made a templar and i use the aoe cone channeled spear attack a lot. I cancel the animation quite often to block a heavy attack or to get out of an aoe and it always cancels the damage for the ability as well.

How is it fair that instacast and even cast time abilities can benefit so immensely from cancelling while channeled abilities are left in the dust? Why even have channeled abilities then? Obviously this cancel stuff is vastly superior, so why would anyone who has any semblance of skill rotation optimization even slot a channeled ability?

If you're going to argue that this is working as intended then you have a lot of explaining to do.
1. What about channeled abilities?
2. Why is there no in-game tutorial about this "mechanic"?
3. Why would a game that claims to want to reduce the UI clutter so people have to pay attention to the actual game instead of numbers and bars include a mechanic that makes a character able to cast multiple skills virtually instantly while their character appears to spaz out from block spam cancel?

Until I get solid answers to these questions I will continue to uphold my belief that this cancel business is unintended.

Imagine what large scale AVA will look like once everyone learns this mechanic, and it won't take long.

All you see in the battle is everyone's character running around spazzing out spamming block/bash with no other animations firing off..I mean if the system stays the same, would that not be the optimal way to compete in PVP? It would probably be the only way to compete honestly.

All these nice animations for abilities they have added to each class would mean nothing. A huge aspect of skillful pvp would be missing.

Meaning: you recognize a skill being used on you, you react in different ways..You might block, you might bash, you might use LOS (line of sight) for a ghetto interrupt, you might counter with a quick shield spell/reflect spell/Heal over time spell. But if you can not see these abilities being performed - how the hell do you counter them?

By the same token, if I'm the one doing the attacking - I want my opponent to have a chance to react to what I'm using. I want competitive pvp. I want that huge rush you get after an awesome fight or 1 v1, 1v2, 1v3.

Can you picture it...50 vs 50...everyone blocking/bashing, blocking/bashing, blocking/bashing...Lol...man that doesn't sound very entertaining.

Precisely. I'm here for the pvp. I will do what it takes to win, but the very last thing i want is to run into a player in cyrodiil and then both of us start spazzing out like we're simultaneously having a seizure. I prefer a slower, methodical battle where tactics, feints and reactions actually have a purpose. That is true skill. All this animation cancel stuff will just lead to stale skill spamming of a couple abilities that just happen to be better with the cancel function than others.

I really don't see how anyone but the cancel abusers themselves can claim with a straight face that they're ok with this.

Bscott0905b14_ESO

I have a Razer keyboard and Corsair mouse. Both are easily capable of macro'ing these into one keypress. However I wont do that because it breaks immersion and I feel it's cheap. I sure don't want to be forced to do that to be competitive in PVE DPS/PVP. So ZOS please fix this, thanks.

Kyotee0071

Thanks for everyone's input from both sides. Signing out for the night. My brain hurts!

Kililin

I really hope this will not be the next case of lets implement a timer, this time for skill activation. (aka GCD)
otoh i can not think of a good solution, that takes lag and bad connections etc. in account.

Block/bash needs to cancel animations else it is useless or animated skills become useless
if it also cancels the effect, it becomes hard because there is no casting-finished feedback, and with some lag everyone will be reluctant to use it at all.

vyal

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Not really seeing this in game (sorc) as any time I try this it cancels the animation without the ability going off (crystal shards). *** that everyone else seems to be able to do it though.

Haven't been able to replicate what's in the videos, personally, as of patch 1.0.5, myself.

Tipsy

I also get stuck sometimes in a weird pose ,even when sheath the weapon..the torso stays turned even when I run

Kililin

It is definitely not working with all skills.

Tested with
Twilight Matriarch - you can clip, maybe, if at all, split seconds of the animation
Crystal Fragments - same
No way you do for example one of the above spells - instant - bash
It doesnt even register the later actions if you go 123 without pauses in between, it looks like you can clip some of the animation, but i have no idea how to test/prove it. (Because there is no indication of when the cast is finished, i could time client side activation - possible activation of follow up action, but then i could as well measure lag.)

Channels are interupted, animation, but also damage ticks.

What works everytime is removing the animation of instant cast spells, but these should be instant cast and without global cooldown, according to the description and explanations we received so far.

So is it really about chaining instant cast spells? Or are my tests flawed?
Do casted spells of other classes behave differently?