** Major Combat Flaw - Animation Canceling/Damage Stacking - Devs Please Look Here **

Carde

Chaining a skill after an attack is an exploit/flaw now?

*** you people really don't realize that they'll have to add a button delay padding to one or the other (or both) to prevent that do you?

This game's players might be its worst enemies.

Hrithmus

All i heard and seen in the youtube video was. "Bash is OP. Needs nerfed" Did you get killed by bash in PVP? My guess is yes.

AS A TANK, i use bash to deal most of my damage since one handed does almost nothing. But your right, lets nerf bash and ignore the mages in this game

ragamerb16_ESO

I'm glad you're taking this seriously.

Just don't hold your breadth... Animation Skipping to boost DPS is old as oaks and Devs of each game with them have ALWAYS considered them exploits...

...The problem is that Aniskip is possible because information arrives at the server at diferent speeds, and to lessen the impact of latency, servers usually skip double checks.

Tweaking this has implications in so many aspects of the game that will take some time until the solution is implemented...

...So if you are forced to compete with the "PvP Masters" do as them and "Learn to Pay" for a Gaming Keyboard/Mouse with timed macros support or use an external macro program that trigger REAL Directx events...

...That's the problem of public explanations of exploits, they get the attention of Devs... But increase the number of "PvP Masters" you will face.

ragamerb16_ESO

Chaining a skill after an attack is an exploit/flaw now?

*** you people really don't realize that they'll have to add a button delay padding to one or the other (or both) to prevent that do you?

It's called GCD (Or global cooldown) and, unless it's enforced serverside, all naive Devs thinking that just adding a client-side timer is enough... Always have discovered what the "PvP Masters" do with client-side GCDs.

Kyotee0071

wraith808 wrote: »

In all truth, I think it's only the ability to make bash super effective by the way of enchants that makes this even possibly a problem.

And as far as the hyperbole of anyone actually good at pvp would want it looked at- you're entitled to your opinion of the mechanic, just as everyone else is. That doesn't make anyone's opinion worth less or more in the case.


Your original post taken in context from Kitsuu shows that it was an educational video, not a complaint video- to show how it worked, not to bug it. So in that, you're on different wavelengths. Are you saying that the person that did your research isn't "good at pvp"? I don't think you are... but that's a direct correlation to perhaps show that the hyperbole isn't needed, even when perhaps antagonized by another poster.

Firstly, the "anyone good at PVP" comment - The comment was directed at @Ragnar_Lodbrok - hence the "quote" in the reply..no one else here. He has made quite a few comments about "being bad at pvp", and or "L2P" issue.

And as for Kutsuu's video and post taken out of context, Hmm..

See this quote ? :

"If I was invited to the PTS, I’d have posted this thread months ago. I definitely have some questions for PTS testers on mechanics like this one, blocking while performing actions, and bash being so powerful when buffed by the deadly bash passive. It seems like these were either kept quiet, very little effort was put into mentioning them, or somehow they really weren’t discovered. Maybe I’m wrong and they screamed to the heavens that these mechanics/abilities would result in issues and they were ignored. It really didn’t take much effort to figure this stuff out… I was just theorycrafting up “Man, I think 1h/s would be great for my build because of all those passive bonuses to defensive abilities like block and bash” – then once I got the deadly bash passive I started testing bash, and now here we are."

It happens to be Kutsuu commenting on his original post in his thread...which I put as a quote in my original post..

So you were saying?

gnostici

If pressing the right buttons in the right sequence very quickly took no skill then every side scrolling fighter game (Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, etc) would never have existed. If not doing that implied skill, then no other kind of game would have ever existed besides maybe platformers.

The Elder Scrolls has been increasingly good, title by title, at allowing multiple viable play styles and presenting a challenge to adapt that style regardless of which is chosen. Whether somebody agrees or disagrees with OP has nothing to do with their skill.

It's broken. Clearly. I just want to clarify that my only point is that if it can be changed without changing the actual experience of playing a sword and shield character in terms of button presses then that's best. Sword and shield has a unique feel to it specifically due to combos involving bash animation cancelling. Every sword and shield user shouldn't have to completely relearn their hands' physical movements playing thus far if possible.

Now, people who know the game's nuts and bolts better than we do can figure out for us the best way to fix it because that's what we pay them to do. To anybody who has complained about talons but doesn't want this fixed: shame on you. It should be called the nerf pendulum, not bat, because it swings both ways.

Soliduparrow

I've been casting the NB ultimate "soul tether" all day without any animation at all. normally you rise up in the air and cast the spell. It takes a few secs and roots you in place. If I tap bash immediately then I dont even see the skill go off but it does the damage.

People should be tapping bash/block after every skill with an animation.

ragamerb16_ESO

Sword and shield has a unique feel to it specifically due to combos involving bash animation cancelling.

If a fighting style revolves about a single movement... You can bet you have a design problem in your hands...

...1h+shield uniqueness comes from the fact that's the only style with a generous discount to blocking stamina cost (And other unique effects, specially for PvE)... So you can guess my scepticism about seeing all this "PvP Masters" commenting about the "clunkiness" of combat, and loosing that "reactive feeling" to ESO combat if the exploit is removed and at the same time do not realize what 1h+board is about... Seems they don't spend that much time reactively defending themselves after all... Not a surprise, sophisticated macros able to be interrupted nicely are harder to program .

Kyotee0071

mcconnell2_ESO wrote: »

I've been casting the NB ultimate "soul tether" all day without any animation at all. normally you rise up in the air and cast the spell. It takes a few secs and roots you in place. If I tap bash immediately then I dont even see the skill go off but it does the damage.

People should be tapping bash/block after every skill with an animation.

So much this? Still don't see a problem with the game's mechanics?

grizzbi

mcconnell2_ESO wrote: »

I've been casting the NB ultimate "soul tether" all day without any animation at all. normally you rise up in the air and cast the spell. It takes a few secs and roots you in place. If I tap bash immediately then I dont even see the skill go off but it does the damage.

People should be tapping bash/block after every skill with an animation.

Cancelling an animation with block is realistic. But the damage of the canceled skill shouldn't happen. Otherwise we can imagine people macroing skill/block/skill/block/skill/block to deal a high amount of damage in a second with..visually a single block. I don't macro and I think it should not be allowed in a game without any cooldown system. But there are probably many ways to do it without being detected.

I'm not saying it does happen, I just wonder if it's possible.

Or is it the block animation which acts itself as a cooldown in this particular case?

EDIT: I see that the quote is about Bash when I'm talking about block..Anyway I'm still curious about block..

Kyotee0071

@‌grizzbi it is very possible..this is directly from my original post and a direct quote from a person using a 3rd party program to run macros to fire off bash and abilities together abusing the animation cancel format :

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

Now are you ready for the "icing on the cake"?

Another Quote from a user that uses a third party program to abuse this combat system..Read it carefully:

"Also, I’m using the amazing program http://pinnaclegameprofiler.com/so that bash and weaving skills are firing almost simultaneously through advanced macros."

End Quote:

How does that take any skill at all? Macros that fire off bash and other skills simultaneously? Sounds broken to me.

The things Kutsuu found about the combat system does take some practice and good timing, but it is still very flawed and not hard to pull off.

Offensive animations should finish off before allowing the next offensive ability to go off. The only exception I could think of is if you hit the "block" skill. I can see that cancelling an offensive ability so you can actually block - and the ability should do just that, be canceled and not fire off.

Soliduparrow

grizzbi wrote: »

Or is it the block animation which acts itself as a cooldown in this particular case?

EDIT: I see that the quote is about Bash when I'm talking about block..Anyway I'm still curious about block..

You can bash the air. If you keybind it to a separate key it is really easy. Then you wont see the skill animation or the bash animation as long as you only tap the key.

There is no cooldown essentially. the bashes cancel the bashes animation a and anything else. Ive been completely emptying both my stamina and magicka bars within like 10 secs by spamming this way. You can get a huge number of skills off with the resource bars being the only limiter.

grizzbi

Thanks for your answers.
I see how it's an issue with bash. But does the same problem apply to block?
I see how a single skill - bash - could be fixed. It's probably possible.
But block is not a single skill, everyone can block: it's part of the combat system. So if it's also possible with block, then...hmmhmh...

Kyotee0071

mcconnell2_ESO wrote: »

You can bash the air. If you keybind it to a separate key it is really easy. Then you wont see the skill animation or the bash animation as long as you only tap the key.

There is no cooldown essentially. the bashes cancel the bashes animation a and anything else. Ive been completely emptying both my stamina and magicka bars within like 10 secs by spamming this way. You can get a huge number of skills off with the resource bars being the only limiter.

Again, a perfect example from the person quoted above me. The burst potential must be huge in those 10 seconds, and the only animation showing is bash - which is extremely quick. Yet he is emptying his magicka bar - so skills are firing off with not one single animation from them?

An example of the burst below:

Just watch the burst here against V rank opponents in pvp..Watch the HP bars disappear in a matter of seconds. Most opponents can't even respond. They die within the knock down or stun..Is that the kind of PVP folks want to have?

Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

WitchAngel

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Wow another case of bad players working to make a game easy mode everyone is special and wins.

You almost make it seem like abusing this mechanic is difficult....

You shouldn't EVER get into a game which requires real skill, if you think it takes skill to abuse this animation skipping.

grizzbi

I've played DCUO for some time. There was the same problem. Cancelling animation glitch all over the place. No need to say PvP was almost empty after a few weeks. New people were just disgusted when they realized they were just chicken running for their life and the pleasure of exploiter. When I left, a few months after, the problem was still there. It was an engine issue, the whole system was broken.

Soliduparrow

It works with block. you dont need a sword+shield. You can do it with any class/skill in the game. just need to learn the timings. Tap and release block.

Soliduparrow

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

Again, a perfect example. The burst potential must be huge in those 10 seconds, and the only animation showing is bash - which is extremely quick. Yet he is emptying his magicka bar - so skills are firing off with not one single animation from them?

You can cancel the bash animation with a block. You have to keybind them instead of using the mouse. Obviously, you dont gain anything by doing that, im just sayin. The only reason you cant do a bashblockbash to pump out bashes fasters is due to latency and human fingers.

grizzbi

mcconnell2_ESO wrote: »

It works with block. you dont need a sword+shield. You can do it with any class/skill in the game. just need to learn the timings. Tap and release block.

Setup a macro in 1 min. Enjoy.

Bloodsip

On a side note, what is the mapping program he is using that allows the map to be up all the time? In the top left corner.

Kyotee0071

Bloodsip wrote: »

On a side note, what is the mapping program he is using that allows the map to be up all the time? In the top left corner.

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info142-ZrMM-Modified.html - It's great. I use it

Also highly recommended :

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info288-LoreBooks.html

and

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info128-SkyShards.html

Zeeed

lol at OP. I figuret that on day one of this game

Thechemicals

grizzbi wrote: »

Thanks for your answers.
I see how it's an issue with bash. But does the same problem apply to block?
I see how a single skill - bash - could be fixed. It's probably possible.
But block is not a single skill, everyone can block: it's part of the combat system. So if it's also possible with block, then...hmmhmh...

The Op has multiple issues which he considers unfair and design flaws in combat.

The first is , Bash. It animation clips, and if you use most other charges,you learn that nearly every charge can be clipped with a skill.

The second is that you can trim the light attacks animation by coupling with a skill. Almost any skill can be combined with a light attack to do this. -i dont see a problem with this

The 3rd is unverified, but it seems that you can cancel an animation with block and its effect still succeeds. Some have even said that skills with casting times can become instantly cast or reduced cast. I have never seen this or am able to do it. However, their is a particular trick that i do know how to use and im sure many "able" players have learned(your welcome) with sorcerer skill Crystal Shard morphed into crystal fragment. The ability allows for a 35% chance to instantly cast the spell after using a magicka based skill. If you are fast enough you can "magicka based attack+crystal Fragment, and if the crystal fragment does not instantly cast you can block to cancel the animation (no dmg done, skill cancelled) then magicka based attack again+crystal fragment in hopes youll insta cast this time. This combination is spammed fast enough that it may seem like you are being killed by multiple skills being skipped in animation, but in fact the skipped animations are actually cancelled without dmg and followed up again with the same attack. You can Magick+crystal frag+ block many many times in a very short amount of time. These are just trick of the trade.

Soliduparrow

grizzbi wrote: »

Setup a macro in 1 min. Enjoy.

I will be setting up macros soon if they do not give us an official stance on this. Skill then block for every one of my skills. The block is seamless and does not have any negative effects. I just dont want to get banned if they decide that macros are against the TOS.

cubansyrusb16_ESO

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

mcconnell2_ESO wrote: »

You can bash the air. If you keybind it to a separate key it is really easy. Then you wont see the skill animation or the bash animation as long as you only tap the key.

There is no cooldown essentially. the bashes cancel the bashes animation a and anything else. Ive been completely emptying both my stamina and magicka bars within like 10 secs by spamming this way. You can get a huge number of skills off with the resource bars being the only limiter.

Again, a perfect example from the person quoted above me. The burst potential must be huge in those 10 seconds, and the only animation showing is bash - which is extremely quick. Yet he is emptying his magicka bar - so skills are firing off with not one single animation from them?

An example of the burst below:

Just watch the burst here against V rank opponents in pvp..Watch the HP bars disappear in a matter of seconds. Most opponents can't even respond. They die within the knock down or stun..Is that the kind of PVP folks want to have?

Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

God all those rolling numbers on your screen is annoying and headache inducing, i completely forgot what the whole video was about within 2 minutes.

Kyotee0071

Zeeed wrote: »

lol at OP. I figuret that on day one of this game

Is your name awssddffyyd in game? If so, that explains it. If not please Press #1 for English next time before posting.

Thanks!

grizzbi

Bloodsip wrote: »

On a side note, what is the mapping program he is using that allows the map to be up all the time? In the top left corner.

nevermind

NordJitsu

If it doesn't get fixed then PvP turns into everyone channeling between light attacks and blocks so they look like spazzing bugged out characters...

Really think that's intended people?

Bloodsip

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

Bloodsip wrote: »

On a side note, what is the mapping program he is using that allows the map to be up all the time? In the top left corner.

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info142-ZrMM-Modified.html - It's great. I use it

Also highly recommended :

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info288-LoreBooks.html

and

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info128-SkyShards.html

Awesome, thanks

doug_martin05b14_ESO

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

mcconnell2_ESO wrote: »

I've been casting the NB ultimate "soul tether" all day without any animation at all. normally you rise up in the air and cast the spell. It takes a few secs and roots you in place. If I tap bash immediately then I dont even see the skill go off but it does the damage.

People should be tapping bash/block after every skill with an animation.

So much this? Still don't see a problem with the game's mechanics?

I just tried this in-game, and while it's easy to do there is no way a right-minded Dev would intend this to be in their game as a mechanic and be taken seriously. This would be severely detrimental to the health of the game when it seems that an exploit of the game's core combat mechanics is what will set good and bad players apart - specifically in PvP. The worst part is I don't see this being an easy/quick fix unless they can just somehow add a GCD overlay to all skills on the 1-5 + ultimate between casts no matter what you do. However, with there already being some issues with the animations of skills, weapon swap not firing, and/or get other skills to fire off it'll be interesting what a fix would actually look like (which also just makes the issue raised in this thread look even worse IMO).

Again, while this can be achieved with relative ease, I do not think the game is meant to be played this way, nor do I think a majority want to play the game this way. I know I, for one, do not as the game already seemed a bit spammy before I even tried this out, especially in PvP. At least stop trying to defend it by saying it's something that will/should separate the skilled from the unskilled; that just sounds selfish and purposely turning a blind eye to the impact it will have on the game in it's entirety.