** Major Combat Flaw - Animation Canceling/Damage Stacking - Devs Please Look Here **

Kyotee0071

Sakiri wrote: »

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

stryderzz wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

This really looks like a learn to play issue.

looks more like an abusing global cooldown bug issue

There is no global cooldown in this game. That may very well be the problem?

No gcd is not a problem.

This game works on reactionary combat. You can interrupt actions with block/bash so that cast animations dont get you killed when a boss fires up a power attack in the middle of a cast.

Adding some sort of gcd will require them to redo the entire combat system or face the wrath of pve players.

Another case of pvp effing up the entire other half of the game.

I agree with you that adding a global cooldown isn't exactly the answer.

I also had said earlier in the post that I think canceling an action with the "Block" skill should very well be in the game. But once you do hit Block, the ability should indeed be "canceled" and not fire off if you get the cast 3/4 the way through.

I love the action combat, and do not want that part to change!

RunAway

Can we get some clarification?

@ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_TristanK @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

WitchAngel

RunAway wrote: »

Can we get some clarification?

@ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_TristanK @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

I don't think we will get clarification this fast, as I don't think they actually thought of this yet. So they have to make up their mind before letting us in the know.

I only ask them to look at DCUO, and what happened to that game when animation skipping became accepted (by devs) and widely known.

Hakuichi

Seems everything these days is "game breaking". This is hardly game breaking.

Nehemia

WitchAngel wrote: »

RunAway wrote: »

Can we get some clarification?

@ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_TristanK @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

I don't think we will get clarification this fast, as I don't think they actually thought of this yet. So they have to make up their mind before letting us in the know.

I only ask them to look at DCUO, and what happened to that game when animation skipping became accepted (by devs) and widely known.

How can they not know of this yet? Mask-casting was discussed in beta, and it was obvious mask-casted DPS is higher than regular DPS, yet no action was taken. So people will mask-cast until its removed, currently, I consider it a part of the game. Know how to mask-cast, or deal less dps.

WitchAngel

Nehemia wrote: »

WitchAngel wrote: »

RunAway wrote: »

Can we get some clarification?

@ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_TristanK @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

I don't think we will get clarification this fast, as I don't think they actually thought of this yet. So they have to make up their mind before letting us in the know.

I only ask them to look at DCUO, and what happened to that game when animation skipping became accepted (by devs) and widely known.

How can they not know of this yet? Mask-casting was discussed in beta, and it was obvious mask-casted DPS is higher than regular DPS, yet no action was taken. So people will mask-cast until its removed, currently, I consider it a part of the game. Know how to mask-cast, or deal less dps.

- Do you honestly think that it's intentional programming that you can swing a regular attack, heal (or whatever skill) and bash at the same time?

- Or could it be that they simply didn't spot it until a big pile of coding was made on top of the coding making animation skipping possible, thus making it a huge task to change it?

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Sakiri wrote: »

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

stryderzz wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

This really looks like a learn to play issue.

looks more like an abusing global cooldown bug issue

There is no global cooldown in this game. That may very well be the problem?

No gcd is not a problem.

This game works on reactionary combat. You can interrupt actions with block/bash so that cast animations dont get you killed when a boss fires up a power attack in the middle of a cast.

Adding some sort of gcd will require them to redo the entire combat system or face the wrath of pve players.

Another case of pvp effing up the entire other half of the game.

You mean the other 90% of the game?

GreasedLizard

I always thought it was a feature lol. Weaving in light attacks and interrupts, 'specially when I was running staff-mode as NB. Great stam dump between magicka skills

Of course high-speed combo macros to chain together many hits in under a second seems to be rife for abuse, and is no longer 'rewarding skillful play'

I think the latter is good, and a must in action-combat games. Some classes are far more twitch and rewarded by DPS if you can pull it off.

Kinda on the fence, but there should be a 'human-level' response time limit. Not some 0.05ms crap

Drakonklenok

Sakiri wrote: »

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

stryderzz wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

This really looks like a learn to play issue.

looks more like an abusing global cooldown bug issue

There is no global cooldown in this game. That may very well be the problem?

No gcd is not a problem.

This game works on reactionary combat. You can interrupt actions with block/bash so that cast animations dont get you killed when a boss fires up a power attack in the middle of a cast.

Adding some sort of gcd will require them to redo the entire combat system or face the wrath of pve players.

Another case of pvp effing up the entire other half of the game.

Animation cancelling is fine, as long as the action is cancelled as well, i think is what the op was trying to say. I tend to agree, relying on poor mechanics to win pvp, meh.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

WitchAngel wrote: »

RunAway wrote: »

Can we get some clarification?

@ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_TristanK @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

I don't think we will get clarification this fast, as I don't think they actually thought of this yet. So they have to make up their mind before letting us in the know.

I only ask them to look at DCUO, and what happened to that game when animation skipping became accepted (by devs) and widely known.

DCUO died because it was a very shallow game, not because of pvp.

Thechemicals

WitchAngel wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

WitchAngel wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

This is not a bug. It is working as intended.

Sarcasm, or are you just really good at exploiting this yourself already?

No im not being funny or sarcastic. This is a feature i used in DC universe online for years. Many people like yourself complained about it and called it exploiting until the devs said it is working as intended. I also used this same feature in age of conan. Both games had active blocking and active fighting systems. Its part of the package.

Can we have a Dev or Mod, verify this? Thanks.

Yeah the devs of DCUO said it was intentional. Which was a very stupid move by them (business wise). When Animation skipping became apparent, the game population diminished in no time at all. Player dropped out so fast I have never seen anything like it.

not true. DCUO recently had its latest of multiple expansions and its business model is a success. Not to mention it is a very fun game to play still.

WitchAngel

Thechemicals wrote: »

WitchAngel wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

WitchAngel wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

This is not a bug. It is working as intended.

Sarcasm, or are you just really good at exploiting this yourself already?

No im not being funny or sarcastic. This is a feature i used in DC universe online for years. Many people like yourself complained about it and called it exploiting until the devs said it is working as intended. I also used this same feature in age of conan. Both games had active blocking and active fighting systems. Its part of the package.

Can we have a Dev or Mod, verify this? Thanks.

Yeah the devs of DCUO said it was intentional. Which was a very stupid move by them (business wise). When Animation skipping became apparent, the game population diminished in no time at all. Player dropped out so fast I have never seen anything like it.

not true. DCUO recently had its latest of multiple expansions and its business model is a success. Not to mention it is a very fun game to play still.

That they have a successful business model, doesn't counter what I just said. That you find it fun to play, doesn't counter it either. Fact is, as I was playing myself at that time, is that player left, in huge numbers, and very fast.

That they later on went successfully F2P, is still no argument against my claims, at all. My entire guild quit within a few weeks, and not because of a new upcoming game. I was one of the last ones to quit, as I enjoyed PvP a lot (when it was "normal") and was a little patient hoping for a fix, which didn't come.

moxsapphire_ESO

This should be fixed so that cancelling can't be used without actually cancelling the command. This is an MMO, not a 2D fighting game like Street Fighter.

Thechemicals

This is an example of what is actually called "clipping". I use a series of skills that cancel the animation via a string of combos. Without this feature the game is literally an attack and block game without no possibility to dynamics or "smoothly complimented skills". Not all skills can be stringed together, you have to learn which work well together. Its also not a macro program as the complimentary skill combos that skip animation cannot be put on one key or made faster. These combos all clip at the same speed. Its actually very skilled based. My opponent is well known in pvp for multiple games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DnT8sHzDBM

WitchAngel

Thechemicals wrote: »

This is an example of what is actually called "clipping". I use a series of skills that cancel the animation via a string of combos. Without this feature the game is literally an attack and block game without no possibility to dynamics or "smoothly complimented skills". Not all skills can be stringed together, you have to learn which work well together. Its also not a macro program as the complimentary skill combos that skip animation cannot be put on one key or made faster. These combos all clip at the same speed. Its actually very skilled based. My opponent is well known in pvp for multiple games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DnT8sHzDBM

Skills or not...it's still wrong that you can do 3 actions simultaneously. It's obviously a design flaw (in DCUO and in ESO)...no one in their sane minds would create such a mechanic on purpose.

Sakiri

Yes, the first ability *should* cancel but Im unsure if they can truly fix that. This is something done server side, and it would actually give players with latency an advantage if they moved it client side to compensate for said latency.

Big mess really.

JesinCrowe

DanteYoda wrote: »

Reavan wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Uhh its PvP its was a waste of time before these exploits it will be long after, how are people not understand PvP in all games is a joke its no different here ...sheesh

Just because your reactions and thought pasterns suck does not mean PVP in general in every game sucks.
Keep playing against that challenging scripted ''''AI'''' though.
Sure is hard.

Bash does need fixed along with a great many things from DK's banner, Vamps ultimate, destro staff 5. Etc Etc.

Its Thought Patterns e-thug maybe less pvp and more education and you'd know that..

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Uhh its PvP its was a waste of time before these exploits it will be long after, how are people not understand PvP in all games is a joke its no different here ...sheesh

Some folks only play to PVP and see PVE as a means to the ends so to speak, to get leveled up to PVP mainly.

I know sad isn't it..

Sorry, I find no enjoyment in fighting tired AI when pvp is much more reactive and flowing. Sorry, if you think pve is end game, you have my pity!

JesinCrowe

Sakiri wrote: »

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

stryderzz wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

This really looks like a learn to play issue.

looks more like an abusing global cooldown bug issue

There is no global cooldown in this game. That may very well be the problem?

No gcd is not a problem.

This game works on reactionary combat. You can interrupt actions with block/bash so that cast animations dont get you killed when a boss fires up a power attack in the middle of a cast.

Adding some sort of gcd will require them to redo the entire combat system or face the wrath of pve players.

Another case of pvp effing up the entire other half of the game.

Sorry, pvp IS the game. PvE is garbage for those that lack reactions to fight pvp.

Thechemicals

Again...It is not an exploit and has never been an exploit in active fighting/blocking games. Without stringing or clipping pvp would not have advanced or dynamic play. If you play witcher or thief, you can do the same clipping. It can even be done in alan wake with shotguns and flares. Definately an advanced thung fir many.

Sakiri

JesinCrowe wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

stryderzz wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

This really looks like a learn to play issue.

looks more like an abusing global cooldown bug issue

There is no global cooldown in this game. That may very well be the problem?

No gcd is not a problem.

This game works on reactionary combat. You can interrupt actions with block/bash so that cast animations dont get you killed when a boss fires up a power attack in the middle of a cast.

Adding some sort of gcd will require them to redo the entire combat system or face the wrath of pve players.

Another case of pvp effing up the entire other half of the game.

Sorry, pvp IS the game. PvE is garbage for those that lack reactions to fight pvp.

Lolwat.

I dont see new content being added for pvp yet.

I also see more people doing pve. Attitudes like yours are what keep me out of pvp btw, not lack of skill. I dislike jerks.

Kloaked

JesinCrowe wrote: »

Sorry, pvp IS the game. PvE is garbage for those that lack reactions to fight pvp.

1/10

Kyotee0071

Thechemicals wrote: »

Again...It is not an exploit and has never been an exploit in active fighting/blocking games. Without stringing or clipping pvp would not have advanced or dynamic play. If you play witcher or thief, you can do the same clipping. It can even be done in alan wake with shotguns and flares. Definately an advanced thung fir many.

Can we get this thread back on topic.. I don't want it to turn into a PVE vs PVP post.

Also to the quoted person above me, there is a reason why the games you listed are single player games. They do not have to be balanced around PVE/PVP . So your examples have no relevance if you ask me.

Also, no offense intended, but that video example you linked earlier of 2 guys standing completely still spamming skills is not my ideal of MMORPG pvp.

Thanks for your input.

Vandril

I don't see the game mechanic as it is to be a bug. Consider how clunky the game would feel without an animation cancel priority system such as this.

The problem is the automation. Zen needs to crack down on any software and hardware with drivers that can macro and stop their use, however they might do so. Without the automation, this combat feature would reward skilled play, and that is something you should want in active combat games like this.

crush83

I actually discovered this as early as beta, and thought it was just a feature. A "combo system" of sorts.

Kyotee0071

vandrillordepreub18_ESO wrote: »

I don't see the game mechanic as it is to be a bug. Consider how clunky the game would feel without an animation cancel priority system such as this.

The problem is the automation. Zen needs to crack down on any software and hardware with drivers that can macro and stop their use, however they might do so. Without the automation, this combat feature would reward skilled play, and that is something you should want in active combat games like this.

I agree very much so with you, except one minor detail.

I don't think you should be able fire off your light attack and instant cast ability and bash at the same time for large damage spikes with no animation from skills that are damaging people. How is your opponent supposed to counter it? How is that skillful?

Wouldn't it be more skillful to actually have to land your light attack, followed by your instant cast. It's called chaining abilities, using your resources, letting them pool back up...A nice flow of combat. If you didn't want your light attack to go off once you fired it, you could quickly tap your block button to cancel the light attack, and fire off another ability...That's skill. That's using your head, and your reflexes. And takes way more skill than hitting 5,6, Middle mouse button in less than a second and abusing animation cancels, or worse yet having a macro handle it for you.

If you started a light attack, the animation should be forced to finish unless you hit BLOCK to avoid a big ability or heavy attack - or too simply cancel the attack and fire off something more optimal. And upon canceling the attack, the damage should not go off from the light attack. Then you could quickly use your instant cast ability after the block, or a heavy attack if it was optimal..That is more skillful to me than hitting 3 buttons in rapid succession to fire them off.

I was on my baby sorcerer the other day and I was canceling my Crystal Frag cast ability by tapping my block often.. Block cancels the cast..so by quickly tapping block during the cast I could void the longer cast and throw out my instant cast thunder spell to take a low hp mob down. That's an example of skill using the system that works with no cooldown. I'm all for it. I love it. I was not stacking damage by animation canceling. There was an animation for my Crystal cast, a brief animation for my quick block to cancel the cast, and an animation for my thunder spell (the execute instant cast). It was smooth, fluid, and engaging.

Let's be honest, anyone can fire off the 3 abilities in question without a macro with a little practice, it's not hard. I'm still trying to see how it's skillful game play to quickly hit 3 buttons in succession. Old school Mortal Kombat combos were way harder to pull off. The skill involved to do it isn't the topic at hand. It's the animation canceling, 3 skills firing off at once (practically), and lastly, bash (with the passives) being so powerful really puts this over the top.

Thechemicals

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

Again...It is not an exploit and has never been an exploit in active fighting/blocking games. Without stringing or clipping pvp would not have advanced or dynamic play. If you play witcher or thief, you can do the same clipping. It can even be done in alan wake with shotguns and flares. Definately an advanced thung fir many.

Can we get this thread back on topic.. I don't want it to turn into a PVE vs PVP post.

Also to the quoted person above me, there is a reason why the games you listed are single player games. They do not have to be balanced around PVE/PVP . So your examples have no relevance if you ask me.

Also, no offense intended, but that video example you linked earlier of 2 guys standing completely still spamming skills is not my ideal of MMORPG pvp.

Thanks for your input.

I gave mmo examples as well. Dcuo and Aoc and GW2. I think you are stubborn and unable to concede to reason. one and the same.

Kyotee0071

I wouldn't classify DCUO as a staple to compare MMORPGS too. Yes it was online, but that doesn't put it in the same class as much deeper games. Also I am actively playing GW2 bro..this problem does not exist in that game.

You might be more of a single player game person and view games that are online as MMORPGS, they are different. The Elder Scrolls online has attracted many single player / console folks that really haven't played real MMORPGS before. There's nothing wrong with that, and welcome aboard.

UO
Everquest
DAOC
Warhammer Online
WOW
SWTOR
Rift
Vanguard (so much potential but meh)
EVE
GW1
GW2

These are examples of MMO's.. Not Dcuo, and not that video you linked earlier. No offense intended, but I can't think of an actual "MMORPG" that has ever launched on a console - This game will be the first...and I believe DCuo is on console systems.

Thechemicals

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

vandrillordepreub18_ESO wrote: »

I don't see the game mechanic as it is to be a bug. Consider how clunky the game would feel without an animation cancel priority system such as this.

The problem is the automation. Zen needs to crack down on any software and hardware with drivers that can macro and stop their use, however they might do so. Without the automation, this combat feature would reward skilled play, and that is something you should want in active combat games like this.

I agree very much so with you, except one minor detail.

I don't think you should be able fire off your light attack and instant cast ability and bash at the same time for large damage spikes with no animation from skills that are damaging people. How is your opponent supposed to counter it? How is that skillful?

Wouldn't it be more skillful to actually have to land your light attack, followed by your instant cast. It's called chaining abilities, using your resources, letting them pool back up...A nice flow of combat. If you didn't want your light attack to go off once you fired it, you could quickly tap your block button to cancel the light attack, and fire off another ability...That's skill. That's using your head, and your reflexes. And takes way more skill than hitting 5,6, Middle mouse button in less than a second and abusing animation cancels, or worse yet having a macro handle it for you.

If you started a light attack, the animation should be forced to finish unless you hit BLOCK to avoid a big ability or heavy attack - or too simply cancel the attack and fire off something more optimal. And upon canceling the attack, the damage should not go off from the light attack. Then you could quickly use your instant cast ability after the block, or a heavy attack if it was optimal..That is more skillful to me than hitting 3 buttons in rapid succession to fire them off.

I was on my baby sorcerer the other day and I was canceling my Crystal Frag cast ability by tapping my block often.. Block cancels the cast..so by quickly tapping block during the cast I could void the longer cast and throw out my instant cast thunder spell to take a low hp mob down. That's an example of skill using the system that works with no cooldown. I'm all for it. I love it. I was not stacking damage by animation canceling. There was an animation for my Crystal cast, a brief animation for my quick block to cancel the cast, and an animation for my thunder spell (the execute instant cast). It was smooth, fluid, and engaging.

Let's be honest, anyone can fire off the 3 abilities in question without a macro with a little practice, it's not hard. I'm still trying to see how it's skillful game play to quickly hit 3 buttons in succession. Old school Mortal Kombat combos were way harder to pull off. The skill involved to do it isn't the topic at hand. It's the animation canceling, 3 skills firing off at once (practically), and lastly, bash (with the passives) being so powerful really puts this over the top.

Clipping in Mortal Kombat was done with every character and especially with Raiden and Johnny Cage and Kung Lao. Clipping has been around in multiplayer/pvp since streetfighter and before. That this is a problem for you means you have likely been the victim of skilled clippers all your life. With all due respect, you really need to learn 2 play. I can tell you this, its not an exploit and will not be changed.

Mace

PvP is never going to be perfectly balanced in a game like this.

The animation canceling has been pretty openly used in competitive PvP thus far.

I'm sure they'll fix it somehow but people will just find the next best option.

Kyotee0071

Thechemicals wrote: »

Clipping in Mortal Kombat was done with every character and especially with Raiden and Johnny Cage and Kung Lao. Clipping has been around in multiplayer/pvp since streetfighter and before. That this is a problem for you means you have likely been the victim of skilled clippers all your life. With all due respect, you really need to learn 2 play. I can tell you this, its not an exploit and will not be changed.

^^^ This guy, Reread my last post man. You keep comparing console game play to MMORPGS. They are a very, very, very, *repeat it with me*, very different beast.

As far as learn to play. I've been Playing MMORPG's since 1999. I've been actively PVPing for 10 of those 15 years. I'm far from pro, but I can hold my own. I'm also used to playing games that require 35 - 65 key binds to compete, not 9. It's not about L2P..I want a fun and effective PVP system. That's all.. Thanks