** Major Combat Flaw - Animation Canceling/Damage Stacking - Devs Please Look Here **

sSolutionSs

sSolutionSs wrote: »

Wow this is a HUGE Broken mechanic. If this becomes part of the norm pvp and not fixed Im 100% out of this game. Keyword=If

Actually now that I've been playing with it I feel OP I just may stay to *** things down all day
lol

It is broken though..

they should just release a whole new game idk how they would fix this without a whole revamp of the combat system and their bogus stance on "realism" so they intentionally left out A Gcd , Ui , or pvp Hud elements unless you want subpar 3rd party addons..

Once people stop paying after free 30 days we will see some changes I'd imagine what does anyone think?

FezzikVizzini

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

I dont see how this is a problem. So someone gets the most out of their skills quickly. You do realize they will still run out of magicka and stamina just like anyone else. This really looks like a learn to play issue.

This really looks like a learn to READ issue.

ragamerb16_ESO

To ppl scared about commenting:

Paradoxically, making this exploit public will improve the chances to get it fixed... A warning, although, if you want to do competitive PvP you will be forced to play this way until the Devs develop a solution (Don't try manually... "PvP Masters" ALL use macros, don't be fooled by whatever "skill" argument they are using... Repeating this fixed recipes hundreds of times on a "Cyrodiil evening" can only be done reliabily and precissely with the help of macros).

I have seen some ppl thinking this affect PvE... PvE DPS is massively controlled by action Bar management, which means you can't go around using the same fixed power combinations.... You can't "one shot" anything worth killing in PvE... Meaning you have to use efficient powers because fights last much longer and you can't get into OOC regens as easily as in PvP, combined with the wild variety of mobs vulnerabilities, forces you to adapt skill used to the target at hand as the "most efficient" skill varies with the target you are facing.


To ppl thinking can't be fixed:

Almost everything can be fixed on a MMO... The problem is time and repercusions. Aniskip has happened on plenty of MMOs and different Devs have found different ways to deal with this. A brief list:

- Cooldowns. Equal to the length of the original animation and affecting standard powers. High Prio powers can have their own cooldown and light/heavy attacks could also... The fact that a very popular MMO used a generic GCD affecting most its powers doesn't mean it's the ONLY way to implement cooldowns. Blocking or using powers belonging to different "cooldown lines" shouldn't affect the cooldown of other lines.

- Rollbacks. If a given power effect is interrupted by a High Prio action, its detrimental effect should be rollbacked.

- Convert the system to "on end" application. Turn all actions into applying its effect at the end of their intended execution.


From all the options Devs have used in the past on different MMOs to deal with Aniskip, "Per Line Cooldowns" is the one better suited for ESO, why?

Because In fact, they are already implemented. Just take a single skill with animation and try to spam it as fast as you can... What you see there? An "enforced cooldown". They just need to control how many different cooldown lines they want to have and not allow different cooldown lines to interact with each other... Because the current situation is triggered because using a High Prio skill makes the client "forget" about its enforced cooldown.

Ideally, whatever solution they find should be controlled server-side, but been reallistic adding more actions to the server resolution cycle may cause more harm than good... I just can hope ESO Devs have already learned which type of players they have lured into ESO (Particularly to its PvP) and enforce regular client integrity checks (With associated suspensions/bans) to detect "hacked" clients... Once a "PvP master" has grown used to a certain performance "It will do whatever it takes to keep it".

Kililin

Whats up with this PVP master ***? It works the same in PVE, and it works for all players. Are pissed off because someone beat you, with tools everyone can use?

It just makes you look like you are not after a workable solution but being on a mission to take revenge for something...

Rhythmic

Kililin wrote: »

Whats up with this PVP master ***? It works the same in PVE, and it works for all players. Are pissed off because someone beat you, with tools everyone can use?

It just makes you look like you are not after a workable solution but being on a mission to take revenge for something...

Some wall of text.

I think bash is OP as hell.

1.Yes.Im think i am PvP master.Im hanging in cyrodiil and sologanking 4-5hours per day,and even more on holydays,because its amazing.(also 2500 WoW arenas,starcraft GM,dota and CS competive experience,also *** tones of multiplayer experience,so i have a clue about what is FAIR and balanced Player vs Player action).
2.No it avialable to 1h+shield tree only.
3.I repeat,bash is OP as hell.
4.You can have only ONE USEFUL COUNTER instead of running,its sparks from DW tree,you can find it in my video below (3:30)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8krLrYX2ugo

4.1.So if you dont use DW - prepare your ***.

5.Everyone who defends spam bash are idiotsbad players who use that and should not say anything about PvP,because they have no clue what it is,and how it should be.

2H should deal more melee burst PvP damage,DW should deal more DPS PvP damage and some HIGH COST CC to be able to do that.Its done amazingly in this game.
1h shield should deal atleast lower(not higher) PvP burst damage than 2h,and should not deal more DPS than DW.
Why?Because they compensate they lesser damage and burst with defensive potential.With better blocks,and more damaging bashes.
But spam bashes breaks that rule.And it makes pointless to play any other melee weapons,because they simply worse.
And if you dont spam bashes,its fits the game and PvP balance really well.

The ONE AND ONLY problem with bashes,which is barely adressed in head topic is you can SPAM bashes really quckly,and on paper you can counter it,but its impossible due insane quick burst from bashspam by draining shield user's stamina,with light atacks,while he's blocking.So at the moment he use 4-5bashes(1600dmg to medium armor if it all crit which is unlikely)
he would be without stamina because you (on paper) drain his stamina with light atacks and cheap skills.

So core of that problem is insanly quick animation,which is quicker than any light atack and its low cost,which leads to insanly broken 2-3seconds burst damage without almost any cost of stamina,so you cannot counter it by draining basher's stamina,and leave him defensless for spamming low cost skill.

Risk/Reward,perfect model which works with other weapon skills(2h slow and do much burst against everything,instead of shield users,DW quick,but you can oneshot only cloth users,and try to weak/CC stonger or higher armored melee opponents),dont work with spambashes because,you have no risk at all for blocking 99% of the times,while dealing INSANE damage.

Bash(not spambash) itself is fine in PvP,but you have to risk something by using it.Increasing cost will not help with bursts,and will kill unique of 1h+shield tree to peoples who dont abuse that thing.

Solution is simple - reduce bash animation speed or reduce its damage.Make you vulnerable to atacks while bashing.

Thanks for attention.

Anastasia

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

Firstly...

Thoughts:

What this ultimately means is that to get the best DPS out of your character, you should be weaving abilities together. For example, always start with a light attack and immediately activate your next magicka/stamina ability. The light attack will still go off, but it won’t play the full animation so you end up gaining DPS. Timing on this can be pretty crucial and the faster you are, the better it will work. The highest DPS would be light>activate>bash on every attack, but this is relatively difficult to pull off in practice, especially repetitively on every attack. light>active, light>bash, active>bash are all very easy to pull off and should be done whenever possible...

---

So much good info here for those not in the know already. Good, detailed information available here for any who would like to change up their fighting to be more/most effective. Thank you Kyotee for this post sharing the info gathered.

---

****Offensive animations should finish off before allowing the next offensive ability to go off...

****

---

I feel a need to mention here -- I'm sure some of these development choices were not made in a vacuum. If you would like to see effective skill animation completion visually compared to what we have now, please compare for visual purposes only any video of ingame action for the release of FFXIV in 2010 versus combat animation in the re-release of FFXIV ARR in September of 2013.

The general gaming population of today would pretty much be serious negative nancy's on the "OMG the animations are soooo CLUNKY and SLOWWWW". I know among min-maxers and those who focus and care about the specs, dmg and mitigation numbers it might seem to be a shallow consideration. But the devs in any current mmo have to make decisions about these kinds of considerations also. Sorry to commit an mmo forum faux paux next and mention another game, but it is to clarify something.

There are many, many players who, aside from the lag and bugs of FFXIV absolutely LOVED that iteration and they hugely supported the fact that the cool downs matched the visual animation, saying that meant people had to think through their strategy and not just mash buttons repeatedly as fast as possible.

The army of power puffs who get crazy over cool-downs that match the visuals are magnificently creative though in disavowing "SLOW, CLUNKY" animations primarily saying that is old-gen blah blah blah.

*Shakes head and watches thread for additional info.

Kililin

Rhythmic wrote: »

Kililin wrote: »

Whats up with this PVP master ***? It works the same in PVE, and it works for all players. Are pissed off because someone beat you, with tools everyone can use?

It just makes you look like you are not after a workable solution but being on a mission to take revenge for something...

Some wall of text.

I think bash is OP as hell.

1.Yes.Im think i am PvP master.Im hanging in cyrodiil and sologanking 4-5hours per day,and even more on holydays,because its amazing.(also 2500 WoW arenas,starcraft GM,dota and CS competive experience,also *** tones of multiplayer experience,so i have a clue about what is FAIR and balanced Player vs Player action).
2.No it avialable to 1h+shield tree only.
3.I repeat,bash is OP as hell.
4.You can have only ONE USEFUL COUNTER instead of running,its sparks from DW tree,you can find it in my video below (3:30)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8krLrYX2ugo

4.1.So if you dont use DW - prepare your ***.

5.Everyone who defends spam bash are idiotsbad players who use that and should not say anything about PvP,because they have no clue what it is,and how it should be.

2H should deal more melee burst PvP damage,DW should deal more DPS PvP damage and some HIGH COST CC to be able to do that.Its done amazingly in this game.
1h shield should deal atleast lower(not higher) PvP burst damage than 2h,and should not deal more DPS than DW.
Why?Because they compensate they lesser damage and burst with defensive potential.With better blocks,and more damaging bashes.
But spam bashes breaks that rule.And it makes pointless to play any other melee weapons,because they simply worse.
And if you dont spam bashes,its fits the game and PvP balance really well.

The ONE AND ONLY problem with bashes,which is barely adressed in head topic is you can SPAM bashes really quckly,and on paper you can counter it,but its impossible due insane quick burst from bashspam by draining shield user's stamina,with light atacks,while he's blocking.So at the moment he use 4-5bashes(1600dmg to medium armor if it all crit which is unlikely)
he would be without stamina because you (on paper) drain his stamina with light atacks and cheap skills.

So core of that problem is insanly quick animation,which is quicker than any light atack and its low cost,which leads to insanly broken 2-3seconds burst damage without almost any cost of stamina,so you cannot counter it by draining basher's stamina,and leave him defensless for spamming low cost skill.

Risk/Reward,perfect model which works with other weapon skills(2h slow and do much burst against everything,instead of shield users,DW quick,but you can oneshot only cloth users,and try to weak/CC stonger or higher armored melee opponents),dont work with spambashes because,you have no risk at all for blocking 99% of the times,while dealing INSANE damage.

Bash(not spambash) itself is fine in PvP,but you have to risk something by using it.Increasing cost will not help with bursts,and will kill unique of 1h+shield tree to peoples who dont abuse that thing.

Solution is simple - reduce bash animation speed or reduce its damage.Make you vulnerable to atacks while bashing.

Thanks for attention.

1. i really meant why it is always aimed at so called pvp masters, you are a self proclaimed master and still think it is overpowered, and if i get you right dont even use it.
2. which is available to everyone

I am neither defending it nor do i say it should not be adjusted.
I am a DW on my main btw.

grizzbi

The different animations

1. There's an animation before a skill connects to the target, even for instant skills.
2. There's an animation after the damage is done: it's the time the attacker needs to take to recover from the move to be back, able to do something else.

How they can be cancelled

You can do instant damage by cancelling the first animation (for all the instant abilities, which all have an animation by default). You can also probably "optimize" any skill by cancelling the second animation to be back on foot immediately. And If you cancel the first animation(for instant abilities), in fact, you cancel both, logically.

The exploits

If you do it manually, you may have some results. But when used with macro, it can become even worst. For different reason, more and more people have direct access to macro tools. There are even topics in this forum about it. People just share their scripts. It's as simple as a copy/paste. This needs to be corrected before people have to use it to gain an unfair advantage over those who don't. And the combat definitely needs to keep its animations to stay interesting and visually pleasant.

A possible solution

For the first one, the casting/Loading animation:

- Damage should never be applied before it connects visually. It means that instant abilities should not really be instant but instead very short.
- You should be able to "reset" a skill before it connects with a block or a higher priority skill. But then the damage should not be applied.

For the second one, the "recovery animation":

- You should never be allowed to cancel this animation even with a higher priority skill. That's a cooldown. And it's necessary. Depending on the skill, this cooldown may vary. And It should match the visual animation length so people can learn to use it.

There's no easy solution. But I think it's a logical one. Of course, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong or if I missed important parameters.

Rhythmic

grizzbi wrote: »

- You should never be allowed to cancel this animation even with a higher priority skill. That's a cooldown. And it's necessary. Depending on the skill, this cooldown may vary.

It will completly kill reaction matter in PvP.
I agree with everything else.

Wreaken

JesinCrowe wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

stryderzz wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

This really looks like a learn to play issue.

looks more like an abusing global cooldown bug issue

There is no global cooldown in this game. That may very well be the problem?

No gcd is not a problem.

This game works on reactionary combat. You can interrupt actions with block/bash so that cast animations dont get you killed when a boss fires up a power attack in the middle of a cast.

Adding some sort of gcd will require them to redo the entire combat system or face the wrath of pve players.

Another case of pvp effing up the entire other half of the game.

Sorry, pvp IS the game. PvE is garbage for those that lack reactions to fight pvp.

You clearly aren't doing the veteran rank 3+ content then.

grizzbi

Rhythmic wrote: »

grizzbi wrote: »

- You should never be allowed to cancel this animation even with a higher priority skill. That's a cooldown. And it's necessary. Depending on the skill, this cooldown may vary.

It will completly kill reaction matter in PvP.
I agree with everything else.

That's the risk vs reward: you attack then you recover. And your opponent has an opportunity to try something. Also you can still move when you recover: you don't have to stay here doing nothing. Using your stamina not only for attacks but also to place yourself is good in my book.

Nitratas

Not only shield bash can do ridiculous damage but you can also weave it together with 2 more hits. Sounds not broken at all /sarcasm

Tankqull

Nitratas wrote: »

Not only shield bash can do ridiculous damage but you can also weave it together with 2 more hits. Sounds not broken at all /sarcasm

its not restricted to bash, the same can be done with every weaponlines "interrupt" attack wich is in case of s/s bash.
bash just excells at it due to the deadly bash passive

NordJitsu

I think this could be a problem, but honestly that video was not impressive at all.

There are plenty of Sorc and NB builds that could do the same DPS using legit skills.

And he's a one trick pony. He ganks mostly low level players off of horses and then dies when he gets in a real fight (especially against multiple opponents.) Its a single target stealth build without much else going for it.

Kyotee0071

NordJitsu wrote: »

I think this could be a problem, but honestly that video was not impressive at all.

There are plenty of Sorc and NB builds that could do the same DPS using legit skills.

And he's a one trick pony. He ganks mostly low level players off of horses and then dies when he gets in a real fight (especially against multiple opponents.) Its a single target stealth build without much else going for it.

Not sure if we watched the same video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

1) Most of his Opponents were Veteran rank 1 or higher, there were a few level 40+ in the mix or lower, but not many.

2) He continually won 1 v 2 and 1 v 3 in the video against Veteran rank opponents.

3) He died once at the 7:00 mark when he was ambushed by 3 Veteran ranked opponents, yet he still managed to take one of them down.

4) If you watch the video and actually pay attention the the scrolling combat text on the left side of the screen, you will see the light attack, instant cast, bash damage firing off at the same time numerous times.

5) In my experience, People will not stay for the PVP in a game where you can die in 3 seconds during a stun or knock down. People like the chance to at least be able to fight back - broken system will lead to people quitting if they are here for the pvp..(opinion of course).

6) Kutsuu happens to be a good pvp player..just youtube his Swtor videos. He is just using the most effective build for pvp now, and most serious pvp'rs will be doing the same - So there will be animation skipping, bash abusing, and macro's galore in PVP unless fixed. People with average hand-eye coordination will not need the macros to pull it off.

Thanks for your input.

Rhythmic

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

Not sure if we watched the same video?

I am sure,the same.

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

He is just using the most effective build for pvp now, and most serious pvp'rs will be doing the same - So there will be animation skipping, bash abusing, and macro's galore in PVP unless fixed. People with average hand-eye coordination will not need the macros to pull it off.

I am insulted.
Shield bash abuser called "skilled player".
No.Just no.
Actual "skilled player" will never abuse something insanly broken,unless he getting cash/rating for that.That the difference between "skill" and blatant "abuse".
Skilled player will try to figure something against "abuse",like sparks.
Abusive player will switch to broken classes,or use a broken skill/gear,to do a meaningless "win" against higher skilled opponents,in that case,abusing 1 broken button.
So again.
No.No.Just no.

Jade1986

I love the people defending this, its obvious they are the sort of players that exploit any bug / glitch in the game and then say they are "good" and others are bad for not doing the same. ..... pathetic.

Kyotee0071

@Rhythmic I respect your opinion. I enjoyed your video you posted on the foundry before sharing it here on this topic.

I also respect you for not using the mechanic listed in this thread. My point was that it's human nature to use the best mechanic available to achieve the result they are interested in.

I would comfortably say Kutsuu could play any other build effectively. The last thing I intend from this thread is to turn it into his skill level as a player. I've seen shout outs from folks on the foundry "Are you the same Kutsuu from DAOC...and or Age of Conan" - and he's been mentioned when other games come up with pvp related topics. From what I have seen he is a respected PvP player no matter the game he's playing.

He shared his findings with the public..then I had permission from him to share them here if I wanted to, or I never would have..because it would have been out of line for me to do so.

We owe him a thanks for the video in my original post explaining how to override the animations, as well as his well thought out post I copied to here, then added my own thoughts, as well as quotes from folks on the topic.

Yes many beta testers and other folks might have known how to do this, but I would venture to say the majority of the player base had no clue it could be done.

We do not owe him personal attacks of any kind based off of his current play style. I'm sure if they fix the animation skipping, and or nerf bash in anyway, Kutsuu will still be dropping players in PvP vids with different play styles.

grizzbi

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

@Rhythmic I respect your opinion. I enjoyed your video you posted on the foundry before sharing it here on this topic.

I also respect you for not using the mechanic listed in this thread. My point was that it's human nature to use the best mechanic available to achieve the result they are interested in.

I would comfortably say Kutsuu could play any other build effectively. The last thing I intend from this thread is to turn it into his skill level as a player. I've seen shout outs from folks on the foundry "Are you the same Kutsuu from DAOC...and or Age of Conan" - and he's been mentioned when other games come up with pvp related topics. From what I have seen he is a respected PvP player no matter the game he's playing.

He shared his findings with the public..then I had permission from him to share them here if I wanted to, or I never would have..because it would have been out of line for me to do so.

We owe him a thanks for the video in my original post explaining how to override the animations, as well as his well thought out post I copied to here, then added my own thoughts, as well as quotes from folks on the topic.

Yes many beta testers and other folks might have known how to do this, but I would venture to say the majority of the player base had no clue it could be done.

We do not owe him personal attacks of any kind based off of his current play style. I'm sure if the fix the animation skipping, and or nerf bash in anyway, Kutsuu will still be dropping players in PvP vids with different play styles.

I do appreciate this respectful ,well written comment. We do need all the players to help this game get better. Even more those who have the experience needed to achieve that. I hope they will participate to the discussion and bring their own point of view.

Thechemicals

Im pretty certain this isnt an exploit. The dev hasnt gotten back to us yet, but we shall see. Nobody will win from this. If we are removing clipping, pvp will become slow motion play for those of us who play fast and the games subscriber base will deteriorate over time. If it is working as intended like i believe, players will complain and leave, but not nearly in the numbers that the pvpers. Either way its a loss and i blame people who are too silly to learn to play.

wraith808

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

It happens to be Kutsuu commenting on his original post in his thread...which I put as a quote in my original post..

So you were saying?

I was saying that it wasn't necessary- and it still isn't. Kitsuu's comment is separate from his video. The video was meant to inform. Does it need to be looked at? That's in the opinion of the beholder, and ultimately to be decided by ZoS. But hyperbole? Considering your well constructed post, I'd thought that was perhaps not what you meant, as you seem to be able to argue well, and that you'd been antagonized.

Maybe I gave a bit too much credit...

Kyotee0071

@wraith808

I made no comments about "hyperbole" of any kind in any of my post. Maybe you read a quote from someone else in a post of mine using the term. I'd suggest you take another look at whatever post you are referring to.

None the less he (Kutsuu) was commenting on this very topic. That was my point, you made it sound like I was putting things out of context in this post (to me), and I was just pointing out that the quote was directly from Kutsuu.

No offense intended.

Old_Issan

I gave it a shot, bash already being assigned to a different mouse button and I´d say i can kill at least twice as fast as before.
The problem is i did not enjoy it since it did feel simply wrong and looks unsatisfying.

No idea how to fix it whithout creating a feeling of clunkiness but i can imagine being quite forced to use it in PvP if one wants to stay competitive.

Mykah

Make Bash damage only occur if Bash actually interrupts a ability. If it doesn't interrupt something, 0 damage and the Basher loses stamina.
Balance.

Hilgara

Its very disappointing to see only a single one line post from the devs in this thread very extensive thread. At least let us know if this is considered an exploit or working as intended. My NB is sitting at lvl 50 with a respec but I have not reassigned the points yet and wont until this issue is clarified and the broken NB abilities are fixed.

soalrism

Zeeed wrote: »

lol at OP. I figuret that on day one of this game

and reported that?

Thechemicals

Hilgara wrote: »

Its very disappointing to see only a single one line post from the devs in this thread very extensive thread. At least let us know if this is considered an exploit or working as intended. My NB is sitting at lvl 50 with a respec but I have not reassigned the points yet and wont until this issue is clarified and the broken NB abilities are fixed.

I would continue playing as if it is working as intended. Most players learn these mechanics and continue to play as normal while others dont and never grasp the mechanics. I can tell you that this issue was brought up on many MMO's such as Dcuo and AoC and the devs said working as intended.

By chance, the devs may say this is a bug which then youll have full animation of light swings and full animations of all charge skills and possibly prevention of cancelling skills through blocking. None of those changes should impact you in such a way that you need to wait before respec. GL

Garrett_hardy_ESO

Bash is working as intended an isn't OP. It takes a a great deal of stamina. Now it should not be able to override animation of 1H attack. but you SHOULD be able to do bash and an INSTANT cast at the same time. That is why it is called instant cast, its instant. If they nerf bash I will be done. I don't PVP so I don't care how it is used there. How about the OP DK vamps that can take on 50+ people and you are complaining about a 1h sword and board actually being able to deal damage.

I just see a bunch of people who got beat in PVP by a sword and board users and came here to whine and complain instead of finding a way to overcome it. Like KEEPING A DISTANCE.

Kyotee0071

Thechemicals wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

Its very disappointing to see only a single one line post from the devs in this thread very extensive thread. At least let us know if this is considered an exploit or working as intended. My NB is sitting at lvl 50 with a respec but I have not reassigned the points yet and wont until this issue is clarified and the broken NB abilities are fixed.

I would continue playing as if it is working as intended. Most players learn these mechanics and continue to play as normal while others dont and never grasp the mechanics. I can tell you that this issue was brought up on many MMO's such as Dcuo and AoC and the devs said working as intended.

By chance, the devs may say this is a bug which then youll have full animation of light swings and full animations of all charge skills and possibly prevention of cancelling skills through blocking. None of those changes should impact you in such a way that you need to wait before respec. GL

This Pro MMO player still thinks that these mechanics are hard and skillful to pull off. No matter how many times I have responded to his silly "L2P" comments throughout this thread.

Anyone with an ounce of hand-eye coordination, can pull it off 10 out of 10 times. If they don't have any hand-eye coordination they can juse use a 3rd party program and use macros (which folks are already doing now) .

Your comments in this thread comparing MMORPG PVP balance to Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, And DCUO - All console games really make me question your knowledge of actual MMORPG balance.

Maybe you will realize this isn't a Learn the mechanics, or Learn to play issue because everyone posting in this thread can pull it off with or without macros.

If the Devs say this is the way it is intended to be played:

- There there will be "many pro" gamers right along side you using the mechanics you think are so hard to do.

- And this discussion will be over - and we all will carry on.

Thanks.

wraith808

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

@wraith808

I made no comments about "hyperbole" of any kind in any of my post. Maybe you read a quote from someone else in a post of mine using the term. I'd suggest you take another look at whatever post you are referring to.

None the less he (Kutsuu) was commenting on this very topic. That was my point, you made it sound like I was putting things out of context in this post (to me), and I was just pointing out that the quote was directly from Kutsuu.

No offense intended.

*sigh*

Look up what hyperbole means. It was in reference to your needlessly negative comment. Nevermind... I don't come to this forum enough to engage in such conversations, and it doesn't notify me of posts... so carry on. I'm done.