Veteran players in normal dungeons.

Rebel_Rose

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Thurban wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

you don't like carries?

No i like to do things myself and earn things myself.

You could like go solo or double in most of the non DLC dungeons. Or just get a few guild members or firends.to queue with you.

Or the veteran player could do this? Remember normal dungeons are for levels 10-50 really, there not easily to 'solo' if you dont have the levels.

Fischblut

Anyone else think its about time that a CP cap or something similar is added to dungeon finder? I for one am tired of chasing after speed players/player who basically just rush off and complete a dungeon solo not thinking of their low level groupmates. Ignoring people who are on quests etc etc. So perhaps it is time to place a level cap, so high level players can only play veteran dungeons after a certain level or CP?

Veteran players have all rights to go in normal dungeon for quick pledges/gear farm/quest skill point.

Veteran players also go to normal dungeons to fully immerse into the quest and the scenery, to peacefully read all lorebooks and talk to quest NPCs after every boss fight (cause they often have new things to say afterwards)

Two days ago I've finally decided to do Harrowstorm dungeon DLC... I am late with this feedback, but I'm very grateful for design of these dungeons Of course I had to pay attention to fights, but there is no mechanics to force grouping - everything can be done solo. I wiped few times, but not nearly as much as I wiped in solo normal March of Sacrifices and Falkreath Hold, for example.
I went afk for some time before the mad Lich boss in Uhallowed Grave; when I returned and looked at everything he said in my absence... I laughed and felt sorry for him at same time:



And I killed all side bosses in Unhallowed Grave as well! New shiny markings to match one of my mounts:





I love when there is option to do dungeons solo. But when I just need quick 1 key pledge, or only some armor set, I appreciate the ability to group up and do some fast runs.

richo262

thorwyn wrote: »

If the Tank and heal go ahead, then follow, that your role as DDs, not the contrary.

While we agree that the tank usually decides the pace in a dungeon, it is still his responsibility to keep an eye on the group, making sure that noone is lagging behind and that everyone is ready and buffed and ported in.

If the tank and his buddy decides to run off without a word, it's is his decision. In that case, I assume he knows what he's doing and can handle the situation like the pro that he is. And the last thing I do is wade through a lake of trash mobs that he decided to skip just to save his fluffy butt when something goes wrong.

Not right at the beginning of the dungeon, if you're in, you can move. It is at the entrance. You had two options, catch up, or simply let them die to 'prove a point'. Had you of spent less time typing to your guildie conniving too spite the group, you could have caught up to where the tank had herded the mob, specifically for you to kill.

Also, tank AND heal went ahead. So it clearly wasn't some half cocked tank going solo leeroy'ing. Half the group went ahead. The only people that stayed behind were chatting to one another at the entrance rather than actually playing the game.

Is the tank meant to say, 'Welcome to the Dungeon everybody, I'm going to move forward now, is this acceptable to the group?'. No, people just get in the dungeon, some say Hi, some don't, but people are in a dungeon to complete it, not play Uno by the entrance while their team dies in spite because you weren't formally announced to the group via a red carpet.

It is not the tanks job to ensure you're well fed.
It is not the tanks job to ensure you are ready at the start of a dungeon, that big wall of text asking if you are ready to accept a dungeon was the obvious que that you are ready. You accepted it, therefore, you are ready.

The point that was proven in this thread now is there is proof that CP250 can demonstrate more dungeon etiquette than CP1000+

Linaleah

jecks33 wrote: »

you don't like carries?

most people don't like unasked for carries that interfere with what they actually want to do. you know learn the dungeon, DO THE QUEST FOR THE SKILL POINT etc.

I think OP's idea is not great though.

CP is easy enough to earn and not everyone with high CP is reading or wanting to do veteran dungeons. not everyone with high cp is a jerk. on a flipside, just because someone's CP is not maxed, doesn't preclude them from being a jerk, so..

P.S. if you see people in a normal dungeon saying at the start of the dungeons that they need the quest? ignoring it and sprinting past everything ANYWAYS - IS a jerk move. if you see your group is struggling to keep up, soloing your way ahead and making them miss all the bosses? is a jerk move

Linaleah

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Main problem is communication. We all kinda suck at it.

Let people know your needs and intentions.

If you need quest, tell the group
If you need toilet breaks, tell the group
don't know mech? Tell the group
wanna rush? Tell the group

always do. the problem in this communication breakdown is that not everyone bothers to listen. but that [articular problem unfortunately can not be fixed through mechanical queue limitations without making pretty major changes to dungeons and queue itself (like adding solo versions, or splitting the queue into speed runs and story runs and even then, i guarantee you that there will be jerks queueing up for a mode they have no intention of doing as described, ruining it for everyone else)

amm7sb14_ESO

Since many vet players want to keep lower level CP players out of vet content, I think this is the logical compromise for that that vet players can't do normal dungeons. I've seen quite a few higher CP level players that think they have ownership of vet and normal content, and their behaviors in dungeons can ruin the experience for everyone else around them, so yea if many want to suggest CP minimums to participate then I am also on board with CP maximums to go along with it.

Linaleah

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Since many vet players want to keep lower level CP players out of vet content, I think this is the logical compromise for that that vet players can't do normal dungeons. I've seen quite a few higher CP level players that think they have ownership of vet and normal content, and their behaviors in dungeons can ruin the experience for everyone else around them, so yea if many want to suggest CP minimums to participate then I am also on board with CP maximums to go along with it.

to reiterate. not every high cp player is like that.

and on a flipside, i have ran into just as many if not more players who were nowhere NEAR max cp - acting like jerks, rushing through, ignoring any and all requests to please wait a moment so that others could do the quest, etc.

this. suggestion. will fix. NOTHING. but it will certainly ruin any semblance of dungeon enjoyment for someone like me, who despite having 1k cp has NO interest in rushing through veteran dungeons and not "leet" enough to solo most of them for the story. especially NOT DLC ones.

buttaface

Thread is a perfect example of the difference between "serious bidness" or "efficiency consultant" gamers in what is in fact and not opinion a -casual- video game that one sees on gaming forums, and the more healthy minded player base at large.

If -you- want to rush dungeons, then -you- form a group, -you- join a guild that does that, and yes, if you go in the PUG function of pretty much ANY game that is full of lowbies way overskilled or leveled for the content, yes -you- are being a ...

It really is that simple despite pages and pages of rationalizations. Agree with OP, in a perfect game/world there would be max level cap on lots of content. That game is not ESO unfortunately.

IonicKai

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Since many vet players want to keep lower level CP players out of vet content, I think this is the logical compromise for that that vet players can't do normal dungeons. I've seen quite a few higher CP level players that think they have ownership of vet and normal content, and their behaviors in dungeons can ruin the experience for everyone else around them, so yea if many want to suggest CP minimums to participate then I am also on board with CP maximums to go along with it.

CP maximums would hurt high level players that do not have the skill level. I won't argue that there are some eltiest players that kick <500 CP players from vet dlc dungeons which is wrong but the problem with this game is still the skill gap. Players who invest time in hitting high DPS end up being able to do more than entire teams that do not put in that training. That chasm causes this difference and it's not something based on CP. CP for damage is front loaded. You get a lot of your power by CP 300 and the overwhelming majority by 600ish. I have seen way too many 810s that can't hold their weight in vet dungeons and plenty of 300-600ish CP that were solid and strong players. There should be minimums for vet dungeons because there is a such thing as being unable to complete a dungeon without enough resistance/ damage when it's on vet. Normal is made for EVERYONE at any skill level.

Every group I've ever been in we are happy to wait if someone informs us they are doing the quest because there are a handful of dungeon quests in this game that require waiting for examplevaults of madness and fungal grotto 2 (fg2 actually will have the dungeon break if someone has the quest and can't progress it). But if you don't say anything the general assumption is that with the limited amount of dungeons most people have been there and done that. The ones that have not may be leveling an alt character that's sub 50 and therefore have done it just not on that character.

The exclusion of high CP would hurt more people than it would help and is not the right approach.

Recapitated

Allow players to give kudos to one player who did their job well and was helpful to the group, as is done in FFXIV.

Rack up kudos to buy drops from the same dungeon (for those trying to farm gear fast), XP scrolls (for those trying to level fast), possibly leads (for those farming leads), transmute stones (for those who don't care about any of those).

Don't mess the game up, just change the incentives.

amm7sb14_ESO

buttaface wrote: »

Thread is a perfect example of the difference between "serious bidness" or "efficiency consultant" gamers in what is in fact and not opinion a -casual- video game that one sees on gaming forums, and the more healthy minded player base at large.

If -you- want to rush dungeons, then -you- form a group, -you- join a guild that does that, and yes, if you go in the PUG function of pretty much ANY game that is full of lowbies way overskilled or leveled for the content, yes -you- are being a ...

It really is that simple despite pages and pages of rationalizations. Agree with OP, in a perfect game/world there would be max level cap on lots of content. That game is not ESO unfortunately.

Agree with this 100%

tgrippa

OP is pretty much saying “Everyone should
play the way I want to, and if they refuse they should not be allowed to play with me”.

Just join a guild with like-minded and stop running with pugs. If you pug a run, don’t expect anything at all.

DaveMoeDee

I think one solution can be a toggle when using group finder where random PUGgers can limit their group to people doing random dungeons and those running specific dungeons can limit to those queuing for that dungeon. This will lead to people doing pledges being more likely to be grouped together, which is good since they are likely going to want to get that done as fast as possible.

This can also make randoms truly random. Right now randoms are often not doing random dungeons at all. They are just filling in the slots in dungeons someone else selected.

r3turn2s3nd3r

richo262 wrote: »

Is the tank meant to say, 'Welcome to the Dungeon everybody, I'm going to move forward now, is this acceptable to the group?'.

Honestly, in a queued group, it wouldn't hurt for all to say 'Ready' or to use ready check. I run in premades and even then just because you see someone's character loaded does NOT mean they are actually in the instance yet. We have timed it among ourselves and it can be anywhere from 20 to 30 seconds that folks are still in the loading screen and can do nothing even though their character is 'at the entrance' So, yeah I say a quick ready check should be common sense, but not explicitly 'the tank's job'.

If someone runs off without confirming that everyone has actually loaded in, well that's on them.

amm7sb14_ESO

tgrippa wrote: »

OP is pretty much saying “Everyone should
play the way I want to, and if they refuse they should not be allowed to play with me”.

Just join a guild with like-minded and stop running with pugs. If you pug a run, don’t expect anything at all.

Trust me, this "play the way I want to otherwise you aren't allowed to play with me" runs both ways, and is very rampant among vet end game players.

DaveMoeDee

I saw some people talking about etiquette. As someone who normally tanks, I will go ahead and start fighting trash mobs at the start at times, but that can be problematic. If anyone needs to swap a skill or two or some gear, they can't during combat. It is best to make sure everyone is ready before starting.

Once we start, I will pull mobs aggressively so they can be burned down in stacks. What is NOT okay is running past mobs without first asking group. The reason is that people get stuck behind the mobs and can also get confused about where to go next if they haven't done the dungeon as many times as some of us. I will usually wait for people doing dialogue before going to far, since some quests require you wait a while, but clearing out trash mobs is fair game.

On obvious shortcut dungeons, like, iirc, COA2, I will ask first.

sarahthes

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Since many vet players want to keep lower level CP players out of vet content, I think this is the logical compromise for that that vet players can't do normal dungeons. I've seen quite a few higher CP level players that think they have ownership of vet and normal content, and their behaviors in dungeons can ruin the experience for everyone else around them, so yea if many want to suggest CP minimums to participate then I am also on board with CP maximums to go along with it.

70-80% of max CP players are casual players who don't play much in the way of vet content. It's not cool to exclude them just because a handful of more powerful players are jerks sometimes. It puts you on the same level as the ones you complain about.

IonicKai

sarahthes wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Since many vet players want to keep lower level CP players out of vet content, I think this is the logical compromise for that that vet players can't do normal dungeons. I've seen quite a few higher CP level players that think they have ownership of vet and normal content, and their behaviors in dungeons can ruin the experience for everyone else around them, so yea if many want to suggest CP minimums to participate then I am also on board with CP maximums to go along with it.

70-80% of max CP players are casual players who don't play much in the way of vet content. It's not cool to exclude them just because a handful of more powerful players are jerks sometimes. It puts you on the same level as the ones you complain about.

^^ this 💯. CP is more accurately Collective Playtime then it is some measure of power or skill. CP is heavily front loaded with diminishing returns. In most content you completely stop noticing your CP gain well before the current CP cap.

RusevCrush

The daily random xp bonus is too good to pass up for leveling skills. I'm typically in there with 2 bars of mismatch skills and a 150% pot. Not fair to a vet team if I queue that way.

buttaface

Saw yet another example of this type of "game play" today. Leveled a new toon over the weekend, necro tank, very well geared, CP810... have done this dungeon hundreds of times and I will speed it up immensely as the tank. Tell the team I need quest, ... DPS (ALWAYS a DPS) starts instantly. I miss the first quest objective and can't now complete it. Some of the dungeons let you catch up, can't remember if this is one.

When you rush missions, why are you even playing this game? Why not take the extra, what? TWO MINUTES to stay with the team? When you do this, you're just a garden variety BAD, and a jerk, no debate possible. I can assure you that ANY mission will go faster with an experienced tank, so whatever ... rushed this needlessly, you only COST YOURSELF more time.

SO yeah, if you are the "serious gamer" rushing lower content in THIS CASUAL GAME in a PUG? YOU are BAD, is what it is. If you want to punch a clock in a video game, -you- make a team to do that, -you- go solo, -you- join a guild and get guildmates to play that way. Most of the rationalizations of this POOR PLAY in this thread have it totally backwards.

DMuehlhausen

Thurban wrote: »

Anyone else think its about time that a CP cap or something similar is added to dungeon finder? I for one am tired of chasing after speed players/player who basically just rush off and complete a dungeon solo not thinking of their low level groupmates. Ignoring people who are on quests etc etc. So perhaps it is time to place a level cap, so high level players can only play veteran dungeons after a certain level or CP?

They/we do this cause it's easier to farm items we want out of dungeons then getting in a Vet Group randomly. Yes yes I know I could go with a guild, but sometimes I want in out and to be on my way to the next group.

As other people have said...you don't want a carry?

newtinmpls

Thurban wrote: »

Okay then lets turn this around. If players who are over level 50 are allowed to queue for and ruin normal level dungeons

Ruin?

Please explain.

Because there is a HUGE difference between a "Vet player" and a "Jerky player". They can overlap, but they are NOT synonyms.

amm7sb14_ESO

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Thurban wrote: »

Anyone else think its about time that a CP cap or something similar is added to dungeon finder? I for one am tired of chasing after speed players/player who basically just rush off and complete a dungeon solo not thinking of their low level groupmates. Ignoring people who are on quests etc etc. So perhaps it is time to place a level cap, so high level players can only play veteran dungeons after a certain level or CP?

They/we do this cause it's easier to farm items we want out of dungeons then getting in a Vet Group randomly. Yes yes I know I could go with a guild, but sometimes I want in out and to be on my way to the next group.

As other people have said...you don't want a carry?

No. I don't want a carry. I want to be able to play the game without having my time wasted by people just trying to rush through

newtinmpls

Aznarb wrote: »

If the Tank and heal go ahead, then follow, that your role as DDs

Problem. If the tank and healer run ahead, they have activated many of the mobs and then left the DD's to deal with it with no healer. Not nice.

Aznarb wrote: »

The Tank was right, it's fast to all of u go to boss, then all mob will come and just burst all in aoe on boss.
Especially in an easy DG.

IF the tank and healer communicate how they are going to do the run, THEN a discussion and tactics can happen.

IF they just run ahead and leave piles of mobs to swarm the DD's THEN they are just being toxic.

newtinmpls

Warning: not entirely sure I got the quoting correct, so if I messed up, my apologies

richo262 wrote: »

If the tank and his buddy decides to run off without a word, it's is his decision. In that case, I assume he knows what he's doing and can handle the situation like the pro that he is. And the last thing I do is wade through a lake of trash mobs that he decided to skip just to save his fluffy butt when something goes wrong.

thorwyn wrote: »

Not right at the beginning of the dungeon, if you're in, you can move. It is at the entrance. You had two options, catch up, or simply let them die to 'prove a point'.
.

I will take @thorwyn s points in order.

1-At the beginning of the dungeon is where loading screen lag causes a LOT of problems. If you have been playing this game for more than a week, that is likely not news to you. Not everyone who looks "in" IS actually in, and not everyone "can move".

SO - this is why many of us players will say "hi" or "anyone have quest" or something in group chat. It serves three purposes in that it starts communication, it lets the others know that the speaker is fully loaded in, and if gives opportunity for anyone to mention that they do/don't have quest, or don't have much time, or are not super up on the mechanics.

2-There are more than two options. They could log out or leave group, they could ask "where the heck are you going so fast" or mention "I'm not here for a spaz run, please slow down"

3-Letting them die .... well that proved several points. 1-Stupid to "run away from the group" when you can't handle the dungeon yourself. 2-Don't communicate, and there can be negative consequences. 3-Not everyone is here for a speed run (again, this should not be news).

p00tx

This has nothing to do with CP and everything to do with playstyle. I'm not interested in roleplay, nor am I interested in meandering through each and every dungeon with someone who wants to slowly roleplay their way through. It's maddening. What I am interested in are the mechanics and competitiveness in end game raiding. I'm CP 320 right now, and have been one of the ones rushing through and murdering everything as quickly as possible since I started up on here. You don't need CP to be fast and proficient. You just need a decent grasp of player mechanics and proper gearing and skill usage. It's a super easy game, especially on PC where everything generally actually works (unlike console). If you want to blame anyone for us "ruining your roleplay immersion", blame Zos for their abysmal drop rates on decent gear (one more Masters Battle Axe or Maelstrom Ice Staff and I'm going to come unglued). If RNG were better, we'd be in your way far less and you guys could all roleplay your way through the content again without us messing things up for you.

At the end of the day, we all have to coexist, and since you guys insist on doing as little damage as possible, I'd suggest taking advantage of our damage output while taking advantage of the changes to dungeon timers and enjoying things at your own pace after we've moved on. Also, communicate with us. We're not generally monsters, and we can read (hopefully). I'll always wait around if someone needs to do a quest, or if they say they need to kill something to level their Undaunted.

richo262

newtinmpls wrote: »

Warning: not entirely sure I got the quoting correct, so if I messed up, my apologies

richo262 wrote: »

If the tank and his buddy decides to run off without a word, it's is his decision. In that case, I assume he knows what he's doing and can handle the situation like the pro that he is. And the last thing I do is wade through a lake of trash mobs that he decided to skip just to save his fluffy butt when something goes wrong.

thorwyn wrote: »

Not right at the beginning of the dungeon, if you're in, you can move. It is at the entrance. You had two options, catch up, or simply let them die to 'prove a point'.
.

I will take @thorwyn s points in order.

1-At the beginning of the dungeon is where loading screen lag causes a LOT of problems. If you have been playing this game for more than a week, that is likely not news to you. Not everyone who looks "in" IS actually in, and not everyone "can move".

SO - this is why many of us players will say "hi" or "anyone have quest" or something in group chat. It serves three purposes in that it starts communication, it lets the others know that the speaker is fully loaded in, and if gives opportunity for anyone to mention that they do/don't have quest, or don't have much time, or are not super up on the mechanics.

2-There are more than two options. They could log out or leave group, they could ask "where the heck are you going so fast" or mention "I'm not here for a spaz run, please slow down"

3-Letting them die .... well that proved several points. 1-Stupid to "run away from the group" when you can't handle the dungeon yourself. 2-Don't communicate, and there can be negative consequences. 3-Not everyone is here for a speed run (again, this should not be news).

You got the quotes the wrong way round.

Except, there was no lag mentioned, he had time to discuss with his guildie and concluded on not doing anything. He even went into combat with the ads.

Leaving the starting point of the dungeon is not running away from the group. It is starting the dungeon. DC2 there is a pile of ads to herde outside. I'm familiar with what the tank did. I, and many tanks do it too. When you start that dungeon, it triggers an ad mob up the ramp, you either fight on the ramp, or you run down the ramp to where more ads are and herde them into a bundle to be AOE'd. As there are many, tank probably didn't get all, but had the group of moved with him, as they should, the bundle would have followed him.

Now, if the tank and healer were somehow in cahoots and decided to run all the way to the boss after the kwama hall, then sure, that's a problem. From what is described however, its a pretty standard tank maneuver on that dungeon. I get peeved when a participant decides to get high and mighty and let the team down over nothing. It certainly proves something, but not what you think.

peacenote

doomette wrote: »

Thurban wrote: »

Anyone else think its about time that a CP cap or something similar is added to dungeon finder? I for one am tired of chasing after speed players/player who basically just rush off and complete a dungeon solo not thinking of their low level groupmates. Ignoring people who are on quests etc etc. So perhaps it is time to place a level cap, so high level players can only play veteran dungeons after a certain level or CP?

Uh no, not when there’s leads and well, like a million other reasons why they’d be in normal instead of slogging it in vet. Plus, just because they’re 810 doesn’t mean they’re ready for vet dungeons...
I sympathize with people who are stuck with jerks who just speed through with no regard for the group. That’s messed up and selfish and I wish they’d just solo it rather than ruin the dungeon for the rest of the group. But your solution would also punish those who would never act in such an anti-social way.

EXCELLENT answer, I agree.

Also, I have seen a lot of threads over the years with suggestions to have more choices in dungeon finder to avoid xzy being paired with yzx and so on. After what happened with BG's I think we all need to be aware that given all of our performance issues, expecting our queueing systems to become more sophisticated is a pipe dream. Accepting that there will be good experiences and bad experiences with a group finder that's randomized, and as a member of the community committing to only contribute to the "good experience" category by being aware of the group you are in, is likely the best solution.

Everest_Lionheart

I’ve had so many good PUG experiences lately it’s crazy. Now 9/10 have been speed runs and I’m OK with that. Even if there is no communication at the start. I can watch and figure it all out. Try to blast through the quest dialogues if I haven’t been there because I can always watch a full run on YouTube if I want the story later. I get the frustration of farming and needing to get through as fast as possible. Only don’t like groups that run by the chests is all.

Anyway I finally decided to take my CP528 into vet queues last night. First dungeon was a pledge. Landed in asked who is tank and what do you need me to do. I’m DPS. The tank said, just keep up and when I stop kill everything. Easy enough. Clean run of vet arx corinium hm until healer dropped about 30 second into final battle and we wiped. Tank said everyone slot self heal and follow me we gonna do this again on hm. 1 tank 2 DD and HM done. Afterward tank invited both us DDs to his guild for some plunder runs of vHRC.

All that from a PUG, granted it was vet but you guys running normal that need time and/or explanations should speak up as soon as you land. Ask simple questions like explain important boss mechs please. Or ask how many mobs they gonna pull. Generally tank is gonna lead the charge so don’t get ahead of the tank. If you got support skills/utility make sure to use it. Be competent with your build and make sure you are utilizing all your skills. If you are trying and still failing most will help you, if you ask.

SidraWillowsky

Pug behavior in this game seems to have gotten worse and worse. No one talks, no one asks if anyone needs the quest, and people are all over the place.

It is SO obnoxious when the other DD bolts ahead of the group. One hundred percent of the time, I'm doing a much larger % of group DPS as well. Had one of those DPS last night in a CoS run and I was doing 60% of group DPS. But hey, you go on with your lEeT dEePs and pull all of the mobs that I'll do most of the heavy lifting on. At least have GOOD DPS if your precious time is so important that you need to run ahead to ultimately save a minute or two.

People in this thread are acting like they're being tortured by not blasting through a dungeon when THEY are in fact the ones in the wrong.