Veteran players in normal dungeons.

IonicKai

Fermian wrote: »

Instead of the cp lock i vote for a “story mode” and “speed run” queue.

It doesn't even need to be story mode and speed run queue. Story mode could be a solo experience where you are basically a god (or at least very tough to kill) so you can go through content at your pace without other players.

Edit: typo

vibeborn

I'm technically a high-leveled player (810) and my DPS isn't the highest in the world compared to other people. I've even seen lower levels pull more numbers than me, so at long as someone has reached level 50, and willing to learn the mechanics they should be able to enter veteran regardless of if they're CP100, 600 or 810

Linaleah

IonicKai wrote: »

Fermian wrote: »

Instead of the cp lock i vote for a “story mode” and “speed run” queue.

It doesn't even need to be story mode and speed run queue. Story mode could be a solo experience where you are basically a god (or at least very tough to kill) so you can go through content at your pace without other players.

Edit: typo

this would honestly be my preferred solution. tie skill point to first time dungeon completion, (because there are all the people who think that skill points should NOT be awarded in solo mode - fine, then make it award-able in group mode without requiring a quest). let the quests be available in both solo and group mode (because there ARE some people who enjoy doing these in a group, and they should NOT be punished because of impatience of others) and this way - make it a choice.

and while we are at it. change the group only mechanics to allow for solo completion.. so that people who like to give themselves a solo challenge and solo group dungeons for fun? can do so with ALL the dungeons ( for example - instead of having to stand on 2 plates at the same time to unlock a door - allow them to be pressed one at a time. there is even a precedent to it - public dungeon in Alikr's I think it was, where group event required at least 2 people standing on paired tiles at the same time, but now one person can just go from tile to tile and still summon the boss)

buttaface

Please just stop with the super slow role player, opening containers rationalization because there's just not people doing that. It's BS and MADE UP. I've never seen -one- such in probably >1000 runs of normal dungeons tanking. On -very- rare occasions, there will be a player lagging way back, -one- player, and guess what? The easy dungeon still takes 10-15 minutes, some lower ones faster, some long ones a bit more. So just stop.

And when you rush past the tank and start pulling packs to a boss, how much time are you -really- saving? two minutes? If that? Stop rationalizing your selfish "look at me captain uber" BAD play on saving time, because in a vast majority of cases it saves little if any time.

As a faster tank who doesn't f around, I've just started leaving and having other things to do while the timer runs when I see the -first- dps/healer aggroing past me or constantly rushing past me. It's about 40% of the time, the player base of this game has gotten so BAD of late. It was gonna take 8-10 minutes to do the easy pledge, it WILL take longer without a tank with two lower players in the team. I have to work for speed at work, not going to punch a clock or be an efficiency expert in a casual game.

OTOH, tanking fast, easy pledges is a DREAM with good players, even of lower level. It's almost never the high CP players I PUG tank with who are the BADS rushing. It's almost always a CP100-300 or low level pet classes.

buttaface

Thurban wrote: »

You should not be able to queue via dungeon finder for normal dungeons if you are over level 50. There is no reason why you cannot either go to the dungeons manually with a friend or solo if you need to. Can you not port directly to dungeons you have already done?

As someone at CP810 who tanks lots of normals for the casual fun, keys and farming more transmutes than PvP gives, the problem with the above is that at least 50% of the player base I've seen in pub normal pledges couldn't complete the dungeon without the possibility of higher levels in the team, and there would be near -0- tanks. It's very common for me to do top dps... as the tank, to see WHOLE team DPS at 8K or less, not uncommon to see under 5k team dps besides mine.

So wouldn't mind at all normal being dumbed down and even mechanics stripped out of lower vets, but as the system stands, a cap won't work without the possibility of better, more experienced players doing the pledges in normal and helping the huge portion of ESO players who are simply awful at the fighting part of the game.

ZaroktheImmortal

I'm over nine hundred CP in full healer gear done veteran runs and trust me it doesn't get any better and I get tired of people who just LEROY JENKINS into everything. I got into the habit if they get too bad with it I'll just stand back and do the clap emote. They want to do it all themselves then I'll let them. I prefer to work as a group. And this happens with people of low cp or high cp. I had one dungeon where two kept running ahead of two of us the other person left then cause I wasn't doing enough for them when they insisted on always running on ahead they booted me I managed to find another random group who weren't like this. But yeah, CP caps won't fix this sadly. There are too many of what I refer to the LEROY JENKINS of ESO. Funny thing is if you work as a group you can get the dungeon done really fast. I mean I have friends I run from and because we work together we wipe mobs pretty much instantly and bosses just fall really quickly. I mean as a healer my role isn't just to heal but buff the team and debuff enemies. My olorime boost damage they can do. I can offset enemies with my lightning staff. I can restore stamina and magika to my team mates as well as health. And when we work as a team we clear through things rather quickly without anyone having to run off away from the rest.

ZaroktheImmortal

Batmanna wrote: »

I usually run normal dungeons when I need to farm gear. That's not fun, after doing the same [snip] 30 times in a day I will not slowpoke my way to the end. If anyone need a quest done I will wait for it, but the day you force a player to go thru the rng gear grind only vet mode is the day that player will uninstall. If you want it done the slow way run with your friends.

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

I run dungeons to farm gear and we still all stay together as a group and still clear it quickly simply because we do stick together and work together. People who want to just run ahead of everyone else forget that working as a group actually works better and more effectively.

ZaroktheImmortal

Also I should mention with the group I mentioned above they left a lot of enemies on the trails that they wouldn't even bother dealing with and as the healer I shouldn't be having to fight off and run around that cause they can't be bothered to deal with them.

Rebel_Rose

If dungeons are made to easy by vet players spoon feeding and carrying low level players, how on earth are they to learn how to do vet dungeons? Sure normal dungeons will be harder with veteran hero's not doing it all for them, but is that not how it should be? In my opinion it help increase player skills in both levels of dungeons.

Sergykid

MajThorax wrote: »

Take your time to do your quests, read every line, open every urn and don't mind vet players who rush through rooms. Zos has increased the time you can stay in a dungeon after completion. You can also refresh the timer by going through doors.

the timer doesn't refresh through doors, only visually. If you have one minute left and the wheel is half, going through a door shows the wheel full again but you still have one minute left, it will be half again in 30 sec.

and you can't "take your time" as quests are most of the time tied to the bosses. Best way is to become strong enough to solo normal dungeons, which is not hard to do

Linaleah

MajThorax wrote: »

Take your time to do your quests, read every line, open every urn and don't mind vet players who rush through rooms. Zos has increased the time you can stay in a dungeon after completion. You can also refresh the timer by going through doors.

1. timer is 2 minutes after last boss is killed. that is not a lot. and not every dungeon has doors. some do, which brings me to my second point
2. and this is the REALLY important part. the quest. does NOT. progress. in MANY. dungeons. unless. you talk. to npc. before. killing. more. bosses. because many of the quests literally have "kill this next boss" as their next stage, so if the boss is dead already? quest does NOT complete and you have to start over. my most recent experience with this particular fun mechanic was in Blackheart heaven where you have to talk to the npc to summon a bunch more npc's for you to kill, and then talk again and only THEN does he tell you to kill the last boss to finish the quest. if your group moved on while you are waiting for the npc's to spawn and kill them (and btw, them showing up puts you in combat, so you can NOT run after the group, as it doesn't allow you to interact with multiple doors between that part of the quest and all the subsequent bosses, so. a. you lose out on the loot. b. you lose out on quest completion. c. blackhert haven in particular is a dungeon that is all but impossible to solo due to mechanic on the last boss where you are turned into a skeleton and lose ALL of your skills, while taking extra damage. there may be some people who can kill him before that mechanic fires. but most people can NOT.


and this is just one, recent for me example. there are other numerous vanilla dungeon quests that have similar mechanics. another i have just thought of is... ironically - another dungeon you can't really solo, due to the whole "must stand on two plates in opposite sides of the room at the same time to open the door" mechanic. Direfrost keep. where in order to progress the quest - you have to kill quest only boss that you have to summon with the torch that you got from a room that you need 2 people to get out of.

starting to see the pattern?

that change where you have 2 minutes to turn in the quest... helps with some of the DLC dungeons that while having a LOT of new dialogue between quest stages do not require said dialogue to progress the quest (that dialogue is still pretty awesome and it disappears as an option to read as soon as you keep moving, cause so do the npc's - so there goes that "go back and read all the things after" deal you suggested, but i digress). it does NOT help with earlier dungeons that require that you talk to npc's along the way in order to even GET the next stage of the quest.

amm7sb14_ESO

p00tx wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Thurban wrote: »

I think it is pretty clear this is a issue with many players, thus really needs addressing. Sure its easier to 'farm' normal dungeons and just ignore the poor newer players. But its just plain lame.

It's all abut checks and balances though. Being stuck in a dungeon with them while we're farming is pretty awful too, considering we can't even use the gear that is dropping for them. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten through an entire normal DLC dungeon pug with a sub 160CP player, and they end up being the only one to get the drop I needed. It's almost like they're guaranteed to get it. My only solace is that I can requeue and speed through again. If anything is done in terms of changes, I'd rather see Zos create a separate sub 160 queue so that we don't even see one another until they're big enough to share gear.

There is a really simple solution to this that doesn't include kicking < 160's or rushing through dungeons and ruining their experiences. Actually, there are 2:

1. Farm gear on vet so you have a higher likelihood of getting CP160 group mates

2. PRE-MAKE A GROUP WITH YOUR GUILD! The simplest friggin' one. How hard is it to type "/g1 I'm gonna run <insert dungeon here> for a gear run, anyone want to come?" I do it *all* *the* *time* because it makes the runs smoother and increases my chances of getting the gear drops I want.

When you go into a PUG, it is completely rude and selfish to try to dictate the terms of the dungeon because you are farming gear. Your issue is not the issue of these other random people who just want to play the game.

If as a group everyone agrees to a speed run, then absolutely cruise through it as fast as you want. But I absolutely cannot stand it when I get grouped with some speed rusher who thinks their personal goals are now the responsibility of everyone else they encounter in the game, and will actively ruin the experience of anyone they come across because their gear run is more important.

There is 0 valid reason to act like that in a PUG dungeon, and no amount of trying to rationalize and justify it is valid.

Answer to your first point: You overestimate the ability of the average vet pug. They're just as bad, if not abjectly worse much of the time. Farming on vet with players doing almost no damage and tanks who don't taunt anything or keep up buffs/debuffs that help the group is actually worse.

Answer to your second point: "Your issue is not the issue of these other random people who just want to play the game." That goes both ways. Why do I have to be concerned with them if they aren't expected to be concerned about me? We both have something we're looking for in these dungeons, and they're just as capable of using your offered solutions themselves. Being new doesn't mean they're stupid or incapable of having friends.

Because you knowingly and willingly went into lower level content, where you know going in there is a high likelihood of people exploring content for quite possibly the first time, needing to go through quest content, gather mats, etc. and you *still* made a choice to go into that lower level content for your own selfish needs of wanting to blow through content.

You going into low level content and getting upset that people want to take their time to complete content that could very likely be for their first time through is not different than a low level player going into vet level content and getting upset because the mobs are too hard for them and that they are being out performed by people who have built their characters for high level content. You're imposing end game standards on entry level content.

Zulera301

it's rough to not be able to have time to read the quest dialogue and that sort of thing.

but on the plus side, free carries.

Linaleah

Zulera301 wrote: »

it's rough to not be able to have time to read the quest dialogue and that sort of thing.

but on the plus side, free carries.

at this point... I will take not being able to actualy read the dialogue provided I'm given enough time to at least SKIP through dialogue to advance the quest.

I do not need or want a "free carry" that wastes my time by making it so that I have to queue up for the dungeon i just did - AGAIN, in order to redo the quest I wasn't able to finish the first time around, becasue my requests in chat of "I'm doing the quest, please hold off a second while NPC finish their rp, allowing me to click on them to advance it - fall on deaf uncaring ears.

IonicKai

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Thurban wrote: »

I think it is pretty clear this is a issue with many players, thus really needs addressing. Sure its easier to 'farm' normal dungeons and just ignore the poor newer players. But its just plain lame.

It's all abut checks and balances though. Being stuck in a dungeon with them while we're farming is pretty awful too, considering we can't even use the gear that is dropping for them. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten through an entire normal DLC dungeon pug with a sub 160CP player, and they end up being the only one to get the drop I needed. It's almost like they're guaranteed to get it. My only solace is that I can requeue and speed through again. If anything is done in terms of changes, I'd rather see Zos create a separate sub 160 queue so that we don't even see one another until they're big enough to share gear.

There is a really simple solution to this that doesn't include kicking < 160's or rushing through dungeons and ruining their experiences. Actually, there are 2:

1. Farm gear on vet so you have a higher likelihood of getting CP160 group mates

2. PRE-MAKE A GROUP WITH YOUR GUILD! The simplest friggin' one. How hard is it to type "/g1 I'm gonna run <insert dungeon here> for a gear run, anyone want to come?" I do it *all* *the* *time* because it makes the runs smoother and increases my chances of getting the gear drops I want.

When you go into a PUG, it is completely rude and selfish to try to dictate the terms of the dungeon because you are farming gear. Your issue is not the issue of these other random people who just want to play the game.

If as a group everyone agrees to a speed run, then absolutely cruise through it as fast as you want. But I absolutely cannot stand it when I get grouped with some speed rusher who thinks their personal goals are now the responsibility of everyone else they encounter in the game, and will actively ruin the experience of anyone they come across because their gear run is more important.

There is 0 valid reason to act like that in a PUG dungeon, and no amount of trying to rationalize and justify it is valid.

Answer to your first point: You overestimate the ability of the average vet pug. They're just as bad, if not abjectly worse much of the time. Farming on vet with players doing almost no damage and tanks who don't taunt anything or keep up buffs/debuffs that help the group is actually worse.

Answer to your second point: "Your issue is not the issue of these other random people who just want to play the game." That goes both ways. Why do I have to be concerned with them if they aren't expected to be concerned about me? We both have something we're looking for in these dungeons, and they're just as capable of using your offered solutions themselves. Being new doesn't mean they're stupid or incapable of having friends.

Because you knowingly and willingly went into lower level content, where you know going in there is a high likelihood of people exploring content for quite possibly the first time, needing to go through quest content, gather mats, etc. and you *still* made a choice to go into that lower level content for your own selfish needs of wanting to blow through content.

You going into low level content and getting upset that people want to take their time to complete content that could very likely be for their first time through is not different than a low level player going into vet level content and getting upset because the mobs are too hard for them and that they are being out performed by people who have built their characters for high level content. You're imposing end game standards on entry level content.

That is not inherently accurate. If you queue for a random normal dungeon you have no idea what dungeon you will get. I have also stated this before but a dungeon can be steam rolled by a player who knows mechs even if they are sub 50. This is not a high CP player vs low CP/non CP player issue. Anyone who has done the dungeon before (especially if it was quite some time ago) may not even remember what the quest did.

If you have the quest just say so at the start of the dungeon and most players will oblige. The ones that do not are jerks but with how many things encourage repeating content it is hard to tell if it's someones first time or not. It's also difficult to remember what dungeons have those quest type mechanics or not as pretty much all of the dungeons that are newer are just kill bosses in order.

This game actively encourages us to run older content. That design means people will roll through the dungeon after doing it for the umpteenth time. Even not on purpose in many cases as the quests NPCs often don't even appear for those not on the quest or in some cases appear so late that players have moved on because there is no marker indicating anything going on in that room any more.

It is rough for a new player to not be familiar with this but it's part of the game design. It encourages random normals with an incentive to do it (XP, an undaunted drop, and transmute crystals). It encourages doing specific dungeons every day (which does repeat because there are finite dungeons). The same quest breaking things can occur on vet that do on normal. All of these are part of the game.

I understand it's frustrating to be screwed out of a quest (I've had it happen before) but to assume it's other players responsibility to even know you are on the quest is also incorrect when the game encourages so much replaying of existing content. The norm vs vet thing is not a valid argument either as you can be sub 50, have done the quest, not realized others have it, and have steam rolled past to the next boss before someone is done waiting for the npc.

LuxLunae

Hmmm...

it's kinda messed up....Messed up that they didnt learn the dungeon....
messed up ....


Fun fact, when I was a lower lvl we all died at Banished Cells II vet..I started getting into pvp... and would do pve only from dailys...I cleared it almost every time it came up... but... then I got an acheivement from it...I was like "wait, wtf? I thought I already did that.." Then the memories started to flow and I started laughing....

It had to do with some specific mechanic in that dungeon.. .and I ... after clearing it many times ... never did it up until that point... After being able to drop things ez, I straight up forgot about the achievement.

Eifleber

When I am levelling a new character and say " I need quest" in a dungeon, the other players just wait for me in 99% of the cases and hardly ever mind making a little detour if some bosses aren't needed to fulfill the pledge.

So I don't really see the big problem.

akdave0

I like going in and helping some of the newer players. Also, ill pop a 150% and do a normal random when leveling a skill line.