Veteran players in normal dungeons.

newtinmpls

p00tx wrote: »

You just need a decent grasp of player mechanics and proper gearing and skill usage. .

Good point.

Mechanics...that's a tricky one. I and the group I play with have a few dungeons that we have not played often (or at all) usually a combination of:
-annoying /excessively complex/ long dungeon
-no drops that we want
-complex mechanics that we either are not super keen on learning (because of no good drops) or because we have tried a few times and one or more of us was just not "getting it".

That being said, just did a random that landed us in March of Sacrifices. I've been there once, smeared by first boss, never went back. The other two had been through maybe once each, and our other (PUG) person apparently knew the mechs as they were avoiding mobs in their run, but didn't reply to questions - and then at one point said something in chat in a language none of us were fluent in.

So...very challenging run.

newtinmpls

Ah sorry about the mis-quoting.

richo262 wrote: »

DC2 there is a pile of ads to herde outside.

Good example.

In that particular dungeon, if the conversation at the "start" of the dungeon goes on too long, the first mobs are apparently on a timer, as they do come hunting the group.

Salvas_Aren

tgrippa wrote: »

OP is pretty much saying “Everyone should
play the way I want to, and if they refuse they should not be allowed to play with me”.

Just join a guild with like-minded and stop running with pugs. If you pug a run, don’t expect anything at all.

The standard advise. However, consider that some people might not enjoy the company of likeminded folks.

volkeswagon

I'm CP 810 and can't do vet without being carried so no to a cap

thorwyn

Now, if the tank and healer were somehow in cahoots and decided to run all the way to the boss after the kwama hall, then sure, that's a problem.

Let me clear up a few things...

1. They were indeed at the boss past the kwama hall when they died... I tought I mentioned that bit. My bad if that wasn't clear, I'm refering to this one as the first real boss. If they were stuck at this mini boss in the very first room with the spining fire, we surely would have helped them.

2. After the loading screen, I quickly checked my buff food and the group setup. It was a matter of maybe 2-3 seconds tops. At that point, the other two were already past that first room.

newtinmpls

My thought is that IF one or more members of the group is going to run all the way to a major boss (i.e. one that drops the sets for the dungeon) and doesn't wait for the rest of the party, then they are working against their fellows.

That's someone I'll certainly vote to kick.

LashanW

newtinmpls wrote: »

Ah sorry about the mis-quoting.

richo262 wrote: »

DC2 there is a pile of ads to herde outside.

Good example.

In that particular dungeon, if the conversation at the "start" of the dungeon goes on too long, the first mobs are apparently on a timer, as they do come hunting the group.

They are not on a timer. They get triggered when a player crosses a certain point near the very start of the dungeon. If any player crosses that spot, the first group of adds come rushing to the entrance.

Hotdog_23

Sorry but it’s off to the races for me when a dungeon starts unless someone states they are doing the quest then I stop and slow down. Always kill everything in the dungeon as I go.

In my experience only a handful of times have anyone complained about it but many more have asked me to do more dungeons with them to level up rather than slow down.

Be safe and have fun

SydneyGrey

Some of us who are max CP are considerate of other players, though. You can't put a CP cap on a dungeon; it wouldn't be fair to people like me who might want to farm the dungeon, but who'd never run ahead of the group.
I can't stand people who do normal-mode dungeons but who won't let other players do the quests.

Grianasteri

Thurban wrote: »

Anyone else think its about time that a CP cap or something similar is added to dungeon finder? I for one am tired of chasing after speed players/player who basically just rush off and complete a dungeon solo not thinking of their low level groupmates. Ignoring people who are on quests etc etc. So perhaps it is time to place a level cap, so high level players can only play veteran dungeons after a certain level or CP?

I absolutely know what you mean. I experienced this regularly when I was low level and inexperienced. It was infuriating.

But the answer is to group up with guild mates/friends who want to quest or who are aware you are questing and happy to wait.

As one of these "veteran" players now, I still regularly partake in Normal dungeons, often when short on time, or when just seeking the daily XP or to get pledges done asap for xp and undaunted levelling etc. Its honestly mainly a time thing, and wishing to avoid the opposite and equally annoying problem... entering a Vet dungeon with noobs incapable of even clearing the first add pull effectively - when I just want to complete a dungeon for reasons mentioned earlier, I often just don't have time to carry groups - even though carrying groups is actually one of my favorite things to do in ESO, but when I have the time!

That said, I am generally always happy to wait for folk who are questing, especially if they ask nicely. I tend to wait at least at each boss, till everyone is there, for instance. Some players are inconsiderate, don't be like that, help your fellow ESO players please folks.

newtinmpls

newtinmpls wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

DC2 there is a pile of ads to herde outside.

Good example.

In that particular dungeon, if the conversation at the "start" of the dungeon goes on too long, the first mobs are apparently on a timer, as they do come hunting the group.

LashanW wrote: »

They are not on a timer. They get triggered when a player crosses a certain point near the very start of the dungeon. If any player crosses that spot, the first group of adds come rushing to the entrance.

Apparently you haven't stood around with a really chatty group long enough...it was pretty funny

Or maybe wandering pets or something triggered them. Seems to me early on in the game if we weren't getting into enough trouble, the winged twilight had a habit of going off and finding some.

FrancisCrawford

thorwyn wrote: »

If the Tank and heal go ahead, then follow, that your role as DDs, not the contrary.

While we agree that the tank usually decides the pace in a dungeon, it is still his responsibility to keep an eye on the group, making sure that noone is lagging behind and that everyone is ready and buffed and ported in.

If the tank and his buddy decides to run off without a word, it's is his decision. In that case, I assume he knows what he's doing and can handle the situation like the pro that he is. And the last thing I do is wade through a lake of trash mobs that he decided to skip just to save his fluffy butt when something goes wrong.

If a tank -- without prior agreement from group members -- runs past mobs that he DOESN'T aggro or otherwise control, then he isn't doing his job. Possible exception: Mobs that can be easily bypassed by everybody, groups of which can be found in most dungeons.

Aznarb

thorwyn wrote: »

If the Tank and heal go ahead, then follow, that your role as DDs, not the contrary.

While we agree that the tank usually decides the pace in a dungeon, it is still his responsibility to keep an eye on the group, making sure that noone is lagging behind and that everyone is ready and buffed and ported in.

If the tank and his buddy decides to run off without a word, it's is his decision. In that case, I assume he knows what he's doing and can handle the situation like the pro that he is. And the last thing I do is wade through a lake of trash mobs that he decided to skip just to save his fluffy butt when something goes wrong.

I agree on the point where it's better to prevent the team, we often run DG like this with my Tank buddy but we always said "don't stop, follow" at entrance.
And if people are low level, we just go slowly.
Also to be fair if they were good enough they shouldn't have die the time DD come.

But trash ignored on the road are not a problem if you stick to the group, you'll get heal the time to join the spot where all is gonna be aoe to death.

I'll said 50/50 on this one

Azmodan

Just want to tell the tale about non veteran players in veteran dungeon.
On PC EU today keys I find a group of low level players (80, 100 and the third one was something around CP) through the group finder. I am 880 CP dd.
Oh, I think, it will be pain. But I was willing to help them and no rush, we take trash one by one. For you to understand the difficulty of the boss fight, here is Sister Vera damage meter:
DD (me) - 35926
DD - 5280
Tank - 3013
Heal - 1682

And this nice group have kiked me from the last Boss. Good luck to them and don't tell me to be patient next time.

kaisernick

It's not even about taking time anymore, i just wanted to do the dame dun quest to get the extra xp but twice now people would not stop and do what was needed even if it was something simple and i bloody asked.

If this keeps up its going to be a problem, as a vet player sort of if you run a normal dungon you should be god dam curtious and wait if others are doing the quest.

LashanW

Azmodan wrote: »

Just want to tell the tale about non veteran players in veteran dungeon.
On PC EU today keys I find a group of low level players (80, 100 and the third one was something around CP) through the group finder. I am 880 CP dd.
Oh, I think, it will be pain. But I was willing to help them and no rush, we take trash one by one. For you to understand the difficulty of the boss fight, here is Sister Vera damage meter:
DD (me) - 35926
DD - 5280
Tank - 3013
Heal - 1682

And this nice group have kiked me from the last Boss. Good luck to them and don't tell me to be patient next time.

@Azmodan How did you find the individual dps of other 3 players in the group? I am asking because I'm genuinely curios.

Azmodan

LashanW wrote: »

@Azmodan How did you find the individual dps of other 3 players in the group? I am asking because I'm genuinely curios.

1. Bandits UI build in
2. Combat metrics addon
3. Hodor Reflexes addon

Choose one.

Aznarb

Azmodan wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

@Azmodan How did you find the individual dps of other 3 players in the group? I am asking because I'm genuinely curios.

1. Bandits UI build in
2. Combat metrics addon
3. Hodor Reflexes addon

Choose one.

But all in the party need to use them :> (or at least 3/4) to have the exact result for each player.

mairwen85

Azmodan wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

@Azmodan How did you find the individual dps of other 3 players in the group? I am asking because I'm genuinely curios.

1. Bandits UI build in
2. Combat metrics addon
3. Hodor Reflexes addon

Choose one.

ESO logs?

LashanW

mairwen85 wrote: »

Azmodan wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

@Azmodan How did you find the individual dps of other 3 players in the group? I am asking because I'm genuinely curios.

1. Bandits UI build in
2. Combat metrics addon
3. Hodor Reflexes addon

Choose one.

ESO logs?

Sister Vera is a boss in Banished Cells 2 I think. Seems unlikely someone logged such a run.

Azmodan wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

@Azmodan How did you find the individual dps of other 3 players in the group? I am asking because I'm genuinely curios.

1. Bandits UI build in
2. Combat metrics addon
3. Hodor Reflexes addon

Choose one.

1. Don't know about that one tbh.
2. Combat metrics show your dps and total group dps only, unless you asked 2 people their dps, you can't find individual dps of members.
3. All members need to use Hodor Reflexes and have dps share enabled (which is turned off by default). Judging by your description of other 3 players, usage of this addon seems very unlikely.

Also, don't ask me to choose one. I just wanted to know how you found individual dps in a seemingly pug run of a base game dungeon because I know it can't be done without other players consent. (cmx has no such feature afaik, Hodor relfexes have dps share disabled by default, even ingame settings have people show up as "anonymous" by default in eso logs) I just wanted to know if there is an addon out there that shows individual dps without players' consent (either by simply being unethical or by having a dps share setting enabled by default). I'll check out Bandits UI, thanks.

Azmodan

LashanW wrote: »

How did you find the individual dps of other 3 players in the group? I am asking because I'm genuinely curios

U sounds like u really don't know how to monitor dps thats why I gave u 3 addons to choose. U absolutly right about combat metrics and hodor. I can tell u about Bandits UI that share dps should be enabled too and most of the time i can see only my dps and total dps. But this time Bandits shows me every member dps. I guess they have dps share enabled.
I have a screenshot if someone interested.
Anyway it is offtopic here. I just want to tell that not only veteran players are jerks.

newtinmpls

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

If a tank -- without prior agreement from group members -- runs past mobs that he DOESN'T aggro or otherwise control, then he isn't doing his job. Possible exception: Mobs that can be easily bypassed by everybody, groups of which can be found in most dungeons.

The problem here is that often "running by mobs" aggravates them, but the runner often doesn't HOLD aggro.

And "easily bypassed" depends on how fast you can burn them down, whether they have stuns or other delaying tactics and how BiS the DPS is.

Not everybody, AND annoying and disrespectful.

Such a tank is NOT doing their job.

zaria

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

If the Tank and heal go ahead, then follow, that your role as DDs, not the contrary.

While we agree that the tank usually decides the pace in a dungeon, it is still his responsibility to keep an eye on the group, making sure that noone is lagging behind and that everyone is ready and buffed and ported in.

If the tank and his buddy decides to run off without a word, it's is his decision. In that case, I assume he knows what he's doing and can handle the situation like the pro that he is. And the last thing I do is wade through a lake of trash mobs that he decided to skip just to save his fluffy butt when something goes wrong.

If a tank -- without prior agreement from group members -- runs past mobs that he DOESN'T aggro or otherwise control, then he isn't doing his job. Possible exception: Mobs that can be easily bypassed by everybody, groups of which can be found in most dungeons.

Now one tactic who is useful in easy dungeons like normals it to run past mobs and pull them around a corner so you fight multiple trash groups as one.
This require that 1) all in the group know about this so they don't stop fighting the trash before the stopping point.
2) that the group is up to it and it might be hard with lots of mobs with CC.
Its just as fast as running ahead, you can even pull the trash onto the boss, wayrest sewer 1 is an place there this is perfect.
If you have ranged trash or harder bosses this is not advice, therefor around the corner.

Anther thing to say if you have an high cp player doing the quest, say we clear the trash while you do the quest.
Or the same if you are leveling an add, need quest feel free to clear adds.
Also can we do optional bosses?
Its all about communication.

Rebel_Rose

I think it is pretty clear this is a issue with many players, thus really needs addressing. Sure its easier to 'farm' normal dungeons and just ignore the poor newer players. But its just plain lame.

p00tx

Thurban wrote: »

I think it is pretty clear this is a issue with many players, thus really needs addressing. Sure its easier to 'farm' normal dungeons and just ignore the poor newer players. But its just plain lame.

It's all abut checks and balances though. Being stuck in a dungeon with them while we're farming is pretty awful too, considering we can't even use the gear that is dropping for them. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten through an entire normal DLC dungeon pug with a sub 160CP player, and they end up being the only one to get the drop I needed. It's almost like they're guaranteed to get it. My only solace is that I can requeue and speed through again. If anything is done in terms of changes, I'd rather see Zos create a separate sub 160 queue so that we don't even see one another until they're big enough to share gear.

amm7sb14_ESO

p00tx wrote: »

Thurban wrote: »

I think it is pretty clear this is a issue with many players, thus really needs addressing. Sure its easier to 'farm' normal dungeons and just ignore the poor newer players. But its just plain lame.

It's all abut checks and balances though. Being stuck in a dungeon with them while we're farming is pretty awful too, considering we can't even use the gear that is dropping for them. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten through an entire normal DLC dungeon pug with a sub 160CP player, and they end up being the only one to get the drop I needed. It's almost like they're guaranteed to get it. My only solace is that I can requeue and speed through again. If anything is done in terms of changes, I'd rather see Zos create a separate sub 160 queue so that we don't even see one another until they're big enough to share gear.

There is a really simple solution to this that doesn't include kicking < 160's or rushing through dungeons and ruining their experiences. Actually, there are 2:

1. Farm gear on vet so you have a higher likelihood of getting CP160 group mates

2. PRE-MAKE A GROUP WITH YOUR GUILD! The simplest friggin' one. How hard is it to type "/g1 I'm gonna run <insert dungeon here> for a gear run, anyone want to come?" I do it *all* *the* *time* because it makes the runs smoother and increases my chances of getting the gear drops I want.

When you go into a PUG, it is completely rude and selfish to try to dictate the terms of the dungeon because you are farming gear. Your issue is not the issue of these other random people who just want to play the game.

If as a group everyone agrees to a speed run, then absolutely cruise through it as fast as you want. But I absolutely cannot stand it when I get grouped with some speed rusher who thinks their personal goals are now the responsibility of everyone else they encounter in the game, and will actively ruin the experience of anyone they come across because their gear run is more important.

There is 0 valid reason to act like that in a PUG dungeon, and no amount of trying to rationalize and justify it is valid.

IonicKai

This issue still comes down to a handful of issues

1. The repetitive nature of content
2. Preference of playstyle
3. Gap in player capabilities

Not even trying to rush and even on a character I am leveling that's sub 50 I can steam roll normal dungeons because compared to vet content they are trivial. That mixed with having to grind out certain content for gear means that some people will bulldoze through regardless of whatever changes ZOS would make.

Some people want to listen to every line of dialogue and read every book and take a picnic break in the dungeon while they are at it. Others want to just sprint to the end and kill the last boss for their random daily. Neither playstyle is wrong but expecting a group of strangers to adhere to either without having some form of discourse is also wrong. That said because of how easy normal is and because how repetitive content is it's going to gravitate to faster runs than true RPers would like.

The gap has been mentioned more than once but the difference between vet capable players (this is not determined by CP at all) and non vet capable players in this game makes the grand canyon look a little small. Most players aren't even close to hitting high DPS and honestly for overland/norm you don't need to. That said this spoils them into thinking they are putting out solid damage when in fact that are only a fraction of a damage dealer that put in the effort to learn how to maximize. As I said I can do more damage on a character I am leveling then some people who are CP when in normal dungeons because of game knowledge...

This debate isn't going to find an answer because both sides are ignoring these three issues and each other. I have stated this before but honestly it's rare if you speak up about having the quest for vet players (not high CP but high capability) to say screw you I want my speed run. I'm willing to take an extra 5 to 10 minutes. If not though my assumption is going to be roll through as fast as things die which is really quick on normal for players with high damage.

The cruelty here is that vet is so much tougher than normal that most pugs will fall flat unless you have a high DPS person who does so much they can carry the slack of an average pug from group finder. To subject everyone over a certain CP (again this does absolutely nothing to measure player power/ skill) only hurts the community and punishes those that have player longer. It will make the group finder queue even worse and likely be the death of pug groups that aren't premades.

p00tx

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Thurban wrote: »

I think it is pretty clear this is a issue with many players, thus really needs addressing. Sure its easier to 'farm' normal dungeons and just ignore the poor newer players. But its just plain lame.

It's all abut checks and balances though. Being stuck in a dungeon with them while we're farming is pretty awful too, considering we can't even use the gear that is dropping for them. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten through an entire normal DLC dungeon pug with a sub 160CP player, and they end up being the only one to get the drop I needed. It's almost like they're guaranteed to get it. My only solace is that I can requeue and speed through again. If anything is done in terms of changes, I'd rather see Zos create a separate sub 160 queue so that we don't even see one another until they're big enough to share gear.

There is a really simple solution to this that doesn't include kicking < 160's or rushing through dungeons and ruining their experiences. Actually, there are 2:

1. Farm gear on vet so you have a higher likelihood of getting CP160 group mates

2. PRE-MAKE A GROUP WITH YOUR GUILD! The simplest friggin' one. How hard is it to type "/g1 I'm gonna run <insert dungeon here> for a gear run, anyone want to come?" I do it *all* *the* *time* because it makes the runs smoother and increases my chances of getting the gear drops I want.

When you go into a PUG, it is completely rude and selfish to try to dictate the terms of the dungeon because you are farming gear. Your issue is not the issue of these other random people who just want to play the game.

If as a group everyone agrees to a speed run, then absolutely cruise through it as fast as you want. But I absolutely cannot stand it when I get grouped with some speed rusher who thinks their personal goals are now the responsibility of everyone else they encounter in the game, and will actively ruin the experience of anyone they come across because their gear run is more important.

There is 0 valid reason to act like that in a PUG dungeon, and no amount of trying to rationalize and justify it is valid.

Answer to your first point: You overestimate the ability of the average vet pug. They're just as bad, if not abjectly worse much of the time. Farming on vet with players doing almost no damage and tanks who don't taunt anything or keep up buffs/debuffs that help the group is actually worse.

Answer to your second point: "Your issue is not the issue of these other random people who just want to play the game." That goes both ways. Why do I have to be concerned with them if they aren't expected to be concerned about me? We both have something we're looking for in these dungeons, and they're just as capable of using your offered solutions themselves. Being new doesn't mean they're stupid or incapable of having friends.

Fermian

Instead of the cp lock i vote for a “story mode” and “speed run” queue.

p00tx

Fermian wrote: »

Instead of the cp lock i vote for a “story mode” and “speed run” queue.

Just adding a story mode would fix the overwhelming majority of the problems. This is a fantastic idea.