PTS Combat Test - Discussion Thread

JumpmanLane

Noobs don't weave light attacks, true enough...they SPAM light attacks. How will the changes help noobs at all?

zTrok

Hey there all ^^

I don't really comment here on the forums very often as I often have no need to come and state my opinion for most matters. However, the changes purposed in this have made me decide to add my opinion into the ring.

So just to begin with, I've played ESO for the greater part of 4 years now. And I have played magden a greater majority of my time with the game. I would like to say that I am rather invested, as I have completed every vet hardmode trial and dungeon, and in addition I have devoted countless hours to writing a guide for magden

Now, the reason I'm writing all this out is because the changes purposed absolutely neuter magden and warden dps as a whole. The primary damaging move of warden dps is deep fissure for magden, or Sub Assault for stamden (aka yeetles.) This becomes problematic with the purposed changes mainly due to the timing of heavy attacks along with the timing of fissure. Both of these actions take around the same amount of time to cast (heavy attacks are slightly quicker after the changes, but otherwise they both go off at the same time assuming you do a fissure and immediately heavy attack.)

I would argue that the warden class, as well as many other classes, were not built with heavy attack weaving in mind at all, and changing only the way that heavy attacks work would be crudely unjust action to take, as it would end up resulting in many classes being really ineffective to a major extent.

I really enjoy the game and I have for an extraordinarily long period of time, however I would argue that this would be a net negative for the vast majority of people that actually care about dps numbers.

Cirantille

If you indeed want to close the gap between the more pro players and new players then decrease LA attack or buff something else but what is this system?

If they can not master LA weaving, how are they even going to master this?

Come on, I am not a 80k dps folk and it will even be worse now. Which is why I am a healer now

And I am pissed off that you expect me to LA x for resources (with lightning and restoration staff ) + HA for major mending while keeping heal + dot + buff rotations.

Those people farming mats, gear, trying to perfect their rotations and all that and now you want them to be our level?

Then everyone should do everything by pressing one button, so it will be rewarding??? How is that fair?

As suggested, please stream vSS yourself with the changes so we will see how will you play yourself.

Faulgor

I liked Skinny Cheeks' comment on the changes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0FIKapKaPc

Basically, the intent seems sensible, but the magnitude of the changes is too high and some effects will run counter to the stated goals. (Although I don't agree that lower skilled players getting a boost will drive away more skilled players, nor was that the reason many left with Morrowind. It was because nerfs to sustain made fast-paced light rotations impossible, these changes now are the opposite of sustain nerfs)

What they should've done is lower the importance of flawless weaving while raising the DPS floor and not touching the ceiling. Instead they brought everything down. The 78% nerf just seems too high, and further, that lost DPS needs to be compensated somehow.
E.g. when previously light attacks were 20% of DPS, reducing it by 80% will lower everyone's overall DPS by about 16%. I suppose they want us to make up for that loss by heavy attacking during off-balance phases and switching to non-sustain food, but I think it's too much. They should reduce the nerf to 30-40% from 78%, and/or buff all skill damage by ~10% to maintain their intended goal of closing the skill gap.

Qbiken

Reducing light attack damage by 78% is way to extreme and you're basically doing the same mistake as you did in Scalebreaker and Dragonhold. It's not necessary to swing with these extreme numbers back and forth. If you want heavy attacks to become more viable that's cool, buff those then, and I can get behind a small damage nerf to light attacks (maybe 15-20% at most).

But what you're doing now is just changing the meta from one extreme aspect to another, just like in Scalebreaker/Dragonhold where we saw extreme numbers with DoTs and Healing. Also, changing core mechanics of the game in a time where performance is absolutely horrible is like pouring gasoline on a fire in an attempt to put the fire out.

Another thing I don't get is the sudden usage of APM into the equation. In games like DOTA 2, League of Legends and Starcraft APM has a value since those games are played very differently than ESO. In ESO however there will be a cap/limit where more APM doesn't result in better performance. And I find it very strange to use it as a measurement for balance.

From a PvP perspective
This change will create some really unbalanced niche heavy attack builds that has the potential to more or less 1-2 shot people. 2H medium armor builds, and especially stamblades that can initiate a 2h heavy attack from cloak, will be able to dish out an ridiculous amount of damage. Heavy attacks could use a small damage boost sure, but it does not need as much as proposed.

The changes also favour stamina significantly more than magicka due to how clunky inferno and lightning light- and heavy attacks can be compared to the stamina weapons.

PvE
The gap you talk about between the floor and ceiling isn't caused by the ability to light attack weave, anyone can learn that with a little bit of time and practice.

The difference comes from the amount of time, effort and optimisation between the different groups of players. Time, effort and optimisation should be rewarded and I don't find the gap we see today as much of an issue (some of the issues lies with debatable design of achievements like Godslayer which is unrealistic for even competent raiding groups).

Another major cause for the difference between the two camps is the difference in performance. With bad performance you simply can't perform at a competitive level. How am I supposed to push high DPS or react in an PvE environment if my performance doesn't let me do so? Dropping to single digit FPS during a boss fights or random disconnects and lagspikes makes it impossible to perform well. Improving performance is by far the best thing you can do to close the gap between the floor and the ceiling.

My proposals:

* Reduce light attack damage by 15-20%
* Buff heavy attack damage by a similar amount
* Keep heavy attack for resource sustain and light attacks for damage.

Preferably I would like things to stay as it is on live, but knowing ZOS, most of these things will go live regardless. There will be a few minor changes so it doesn't look as terrible as it was from the start, but the vision will (sadly) most likely go live...

Making more playstyles and option viable isn't a bad thing, but not at the expense of core mechanics and things that was previously the "meta".

Closing the skillgap is done by educating people and that's kinda what we've content creators for, but afaik, it hasn't been much of a priority to hold on the PvP and PvE creators that people once used to love watching.

Now all we see are the promotion of housing streamers (I'm not bashing on this kind of content btw, just want to make a point) and very casual players, which doesn't reflect the potential this game truly has when it comes to the combat section.

OrderoftheDarkness

This may be an interesting change if further changes affect other related parts, such as resource depletion, Lifesteal, or Magickasteal.

StopDropAndBear

I've been running Moongrave Fen solo a lot recently while farming gear and using the blood blobs used to make me think that there was nothing more awkward and unfun in this game than having heavy attacks as a mechanic, but I was wrong, it's spamming un-woven light attacks for an unsatisfactory resource return.
If you want to promote "lower APM gameplay styles" why not rework how channeled abilities function?

frozzzen101

I'm okay with reducing LA dmg a bit, they were over the top in both pve and pvp for a while, but this is completely wrong way to go around it. And due to the nature of changes and time/resources going into this, this is going stick in some horrible form. Quite frankly, I do not believe development team in the slightest. Ramifications of such changes are beyond the scope of what devs can even imagine, and ESO will spend next 2 years hotfixing all the issues stemming from this change.

Nerfing light attacks slightly is okay. Removing movement speed penalty while heavy attacking is fine, shortening down heavy attacks is fine and giving it extra damage is fine, but Jesus don't change core mechanics of HA for resources LA for damage. This shouldnt even be considered at this point in game's lifespan. We used this system for years and it worked just fine. People that are struggling these days with LA rotations won't ever adapt to this change because they don't put any effort into ESO. That's pretty much the reason why there is such huge skill gap. Effort, not APM.

I'm trying to find silver lining in this entire shitsandwich but I just can't. Many of the people I play with are ready to throw the towel and as much as I don't want to, I will probably do the same. Quite literally the only thing that prevents me from quitting the game is

We’d like to emphasize the possibility of these changes never actually going into the game

Quite literally the only thing.

SilverKatz

After reading these feedbacks( 8 pages) so far.
Despite 95% negative , i think ZOS will live this anyway.

evoniee

they made this up so ppl forgot how horrible game performance right now, smh

code65536

I want to start off by saying that I am in complete 100% agreement with the "mission statement" of these PTS changes. Specifically, the following paragraph:

There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible. Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS, and can simply move around the battlefield better in both PVE and PVP. While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options. This is particularly evident in veteran content and PvP. Finally, the concept of using light attacks for damage and heavy attacks for restore is, quite simply, unintuitive – especially for less experienced players.

I agree with all of this, and I agree that something needs to be done, and I applaud ZOS for taking action. But I strongly dislike the solution that is being tried out here.

I consider that the two overall goals here are:

1. Reducing the effect of the skill gap. To be clear, it is good to have a skill gap. The amount by which that skill gap translates into power is the thing that needs some adjustment.
2. Making light and heavy attacks more intuitive.

PART 1: ADDRESSING THE POWER GAP

First, as a broad generalization, I like to think about players being put into three categories.

1. Players who mostly use their basic weapon attacks. The so-called "light-attack spammers" or "heavy-attack spammers".
   • Keep in mind that in most games, your basic weapon attacks--e.g., pointing and shooting your gun--is the primary way you do damage and that abilities are things that you cast every now and then to augment that damage or for utility. In ESO, abilities make up most of your damage and basic weapon attacks augment that damage, which can be counter-intuitive for someone who's used to, say, shooters, but is new to ESO, so it's perfectly understandable to see a new player just doing "light-attack spam" because that's kinda natural, if you think about it.
2. Players who use abilities and try to weave them, but aren't very good at it. This might be due to a lack of practice. Or, in many cases, people simply aren't able to; e.g., for older players, it can even be a little physically painful. When we look at people's DPS parses, the first thing we look at is their LA/s rate. And if it's something like 0.5, we'd say, "You need to light-attack more"; i.e., get better at weaving. I myself am only around 0.7 LA/s. I can't hit the 0.8 or 0.9+ LA/s that elite players can get, and I probably will never get there; I have my limits.
3. Elite players who have very high APM, whose rotations are fast and fluid and who don't miss their LA-weaves.

So how do the proposed changes affect each of these skill tiers?

Based on my testing on the PTS, someone who just spams heavy attacks will get a modest boost to their damage. Heavy attack damage has been increased by a modest amount, and the cast times have been reduced a little. The end result, based on some quick casual testing on the PTS is a small increase in the ballpark of around 10-20%. For someone spamming light attacks, well, it's not pretty. The fight duration tripled, so the DPS was cut by around 2/3 (less than the 78% nominal nerf because of damage from things like weapon enchantments).

I don't think that these changes help the proverbial "floor". On Live, both heavy-attack spam and light-attack spam does similar amounts of overall DPS. On the PTS, heavy-attack spam was mildly buffed, while light-attack spam was thrown into the gutter. I don't see how this helps the "floor". At all. If anything, I would argue that these changes hurt them more than it helps them, as it strips away combat options and forces these kinds of players into using only heavy attacks.

But what about the "middle class"? What about the people who try to weave abilities, but aren't able to do so that well? The amount of resource return from light attacks is immense. Without the CP buff, it's equivalent to about 400 regen for someone who weaves perfectly. Obviously, it's more once you figure in Tenacity. So while missing light attacks won't result in as much of a direct loss of damage, it still represents a significant indirect loss of damage because that sustain can be translated into damage. Choosing bi-stat food over regen food. Picking a "damage" race like Orc instead of a "sustain" race like Redguard. Using a "damage" set like New Moon Acolyte instead of a "sustain" set like Vicious Ophidian. But these kinds of shifts away from other sources of sustain will be available only to people who can weave well.

For the "upper class", yes, it's an outright nerf to power. That can be somewhat compensated for by shifting their builds further away from sustain.

But what does this do for the power gap between the "middle class" and the "upper class". Both groups will be hit hard by this, and it's not clear that they will be affected in a way that reduces the relative power gap.

And so I would like to take a moment now to talk about the Morrowind combat changes. Back when those changes were made, @ZOS_RichLambert said on ESO Live that they had two goals with the Morrowind combat changes. First, they wanted people to think about sustain again. And second, they wanted to reduce the power gap. Well, these changes seem to fly in the face of the notion that sustain should be relevant. But more importantly, the Morrowind combat changes increased the power gap between players. Yes, the sustain nerfs hit the power of the "upper class" hard. But it also hit the "middle class" even more. If you think about it, when resources are tight, then players who are more efficient at resource usage will have an advantage. Instead of using a dynamic rotation, are you using an easy static rotation that results in a couple of DoTs being recast a little early? That's wasted resources. Did you accidentally step into red and thus need to cast a self-heal to compensate for your mistake? That's wasted resources. Did you miss a light attack and thus miss out on its resource-free damage? That's less damage per resource spent.

Can you say, without any doubt, that these light/heavy attack changes will hurt the "upper class" more than it hurts the "middle class"? If not, then you're not actually closing the power gap, and this will be a repeat of the Morrowind fiasco.

But hey there's more to this game than just DPS! What about something like PvE tanking? A lot of tanking is about resource management. Wouldn't it be great if, as a tank, you could get stamina as you light-weave everything? It would trivialize resource management! Hooray! But oh wait, that means you have to drop block to weave every ability instead of block-casting, and if you're a new tank or even an experienced tank who's tanking new unfamiliar content, that's pretty darn risky. So what this means is that experienced tanks can get easy resource management, but beginner tanks who are told, "when in doubt, hold block" can't reap the benefits of this. And of course, if a tank needs an emergency injection of stamina, the old option of getting a burst of about 2.8K stamina from a single 0.8s heavy attack channel is gone. All of this simply punishes less experienced players and dramatically increase the effects of the skill gap.


PART 2: LIGHT/HEAVY ATTACKS SHOULD BE INTUITIVE

You're right: Heavy attacks restoring resources, while light attacks do not, is not intuitive. But... How on earth is the opposite intuitive?! A new player is going to be just as confused about light-attacks restoring resources as they are with the current arrangement on Live.

So what would be intuitive?

Simple: Stop treating light and heavy attacks differently!

Both light and heavy attacks should restore resources. A light attack should restore a very small, token amount (50?). And heavy attacks should restore the same amount as they do now. And medium attacks should restore somewhere between the two, scaled with the duration of the channel.

That's how you make intuitive mechanics. A heavy attack should just be a heavier, stronger light attack. Period. Don't have some silly nonsense where a light attack restores resources, but if a players holds onto the button for just a fraction of a second too long and it turns into a medium attack, then they get nothing. Don't have some silly nonsense where if someone is charging a heavy attack because they are out of resources, but if they let go of that attack just a fraction of a second too soon and it turns into a medium attack, then they get nothing.

Light attacks should do a modest amount of damage and return a small amount of resources. And heavy attacks should do the same, except more: more damage, more resource return. And medium attacks should scale between the two and do a medium amount of damage and return a medium amount of resources. This is the logical, straightfoward thing to do, and it bewilders me that it doesn't work like this.

A heavy attack is slow and requires a channel, so it should be more rewarding in all aspects. How does "hey, you do more damage as a tradeoff for this annoying channel, but oh no, you don't get any resources back" make any sense?


PART 3: WHAT I WOULD DO IF I WAS A COMBAT DESIGNER

1. Reduce light attack damage. Not by 78%. But by something more modest. 30%?
2. Increase the damage on consecutive (non-weaved) light/medium/heavy attacks.
3. All light attacks restore resources. Something small like 50. (So for someone weaving perfectly, this would be a modest 100 regen.)
4. Keep the current Live levels of heavy attack resource return.
5. Medium attack damage and resource return will be somewhere between that of a light attack and heavy attack, scaling with the duration of the channel.
6. Make Empower affect all basic weapon attacks: light/medium/heavy.
7. Edited to add: Increase the damage of spammable abilities by an amount comparable to the reduction to light attack damage. This would maintain the current power level for people who weave successfully (thus effectively shifting damage from the basic attack to the ability), while increasing the power level for those who miss weaves (they would still do less damage, but the gap would be smaller).

If you look at the current lower-APM options--what people hawk as "easy" builds--they're often light-attack-spam (werewolf) or heavy-attack-spam builds. Let's reinforce these options and make them more effective. That's why I propose increasing the damage from consecutive, non-weaved attacks. Of course, these things should not be too effective that they outclass "high-APM" options (we still want a skill gap!), but they should be more effective than they are now (thus lowering the effect of the skill gap). The increase for non-weaved attacks should more than compensate for the 30% nerf to light attack damage that I am proposing.

As for the "middle class" vs. "upper class", an outright nerf to light attack damage (without adding some secondary effect like a ridiculous 400 regen to perfect weavers) will slightly narrow the gap between the two because it will affect those with higher LA/s more than those with lower LA/s.

And finally, on the consistency/intuitiveness front, it makes no sense to apply a resource return to light attacks but not heavy attacks, just as it makes no sense to do the opposite. What makes sense, though, is for a heavy attack to just be a stronger light attack in every way--in both damage and resource return--as compensation for it being a slow channel.

Ultimately, the end result should be...

1. A raising of the bottom floor, in which people who just spam basic attacks are better off than they are on Live. A buff to consecutive, non-weaved damage will help with this (and should more than compensate for the LA damage nerf) and reinforce the current popular low-APM options. ZOS's proposal doesn't help the floor at all, since a severe nerf to LA damage with no compensation simply serves to deprive the "lower class" of combat options and forces them into only using heavy attacks.
2. A narrowing of the gap between the "middle" and "upper" classes. Reducing the damage of weaved light attacks is the key here. In contrast, ZOS's proposal just replaces the lost direct damage with indirect damage in the form of massive sustain.
3. A system where heavy attacks are more desirable, but not so desirable that people who prefer high APM feel compelled into sluggish heavy-attack rotations. While ZOS's current proposal doesn't quite push people into a HA-meta, it does come dangerously close with that insane 78% damage nerf to LAs.
4. Heavy and medium attacks should be rewarded for their cast times, which not only means more damage, but also more resource return. Be consistent.

Qbiken

Thanks @code65536 for wording things perfectly

Djiku

I am probabaly one of the players ZOS tries to cater to. I suck at attack weaving. Can't get it right. But you know what, I am fine with it because I know that if I would take time to practice, I can get better over time.
Please don't dumb things down and change a part of the game that doesn't need to be fixed. It is fine the way it is now.
Although you mentioned that the performance problems are your priority at the the moment, these changes are shedding a bad light on that statement. I know not everybody at ZOS can help with the performance fixes but releasing these ideas of yours to the PTS right now is horrible timing.
It seems out of touch with your community. I would prefer that you take the PTS down, scrap these ideas and we never mention that incident again but that won't happen.
As you can see all over the forums, the vast majority of the playerbase don't want these changes. Acknowledge that and concentrate on the real problems. Don't create new ones.

Vinterskald

Wholeheartedly agreed with everything @code65536 said, couldn't have worded it better. It's perfectly sensible, intuitive, and would definitely help bridge the gap between less and more experienced players without making absolutely illogical and counterintuitive changes to the combat system as it is suggested by the patch notes right now.

Please, consider not trying to change everything from the ground up every couple months - that's something players of all skill levels have grown tired of. Making the game more enjoyable for those players who aren't great at weaving or don't even know about it is a wonderful idea, but turning the system upside down will not do anything to aid that.

Seperatist

What about bringing more as you say identify to classes by reworking/adding sets like it happened with mag dk in elfbane. At this state it does bringing back mag serc shock staves ha weaving which was ridiculously easy and overperforming back in morrowind, same in line with stam dk ha weaving and dots build, if it's just another try to make game easier to play and dps for casuals then it's not, those who stuck belove 70k will be stuck belove even more, those who had more will loose again. These changes doesn't make any sense, unless like maybe forcing tanks use galenwe since buff, but again there is already lots of other supportive sets to use, not to mention casual pugs would rather take some plague + leeching anyway. Not to mention you reworking all this combat stuff non stop last patches. Would rather like to hear you gonna fix game crashes lag spikes bugs etc for next let's just say 6 months with 0 new content added and 0 game changes if this would really solve some.

Karmen

So, strong and immortal builds will have more sustain now in pvp.
GJ zenimax.

LuxiasCaelum13

I agree with making LA's restore resources and HA's deal more damage. In fact, it's more accurate to how Elder Scrolls games work.

But reducing LA damage to "reduce the gap between high APM players and low APM ones" is just lame.
You are basically encouraging mediocrity instead of pushing players to do their best, because some players cannot grasp the concept of doing combos in an action-based RPG game. Because some players can't understand the very same tooltips you gave to them in your loading screens. Because pressing two keys is too hard, you prefer to remove that option, and it really showcases your way of doing things.

Remember Mother Ciannait's set? Remember how you nerfed Iceheart to the ground only to make Mother Ciannait more attractive instead of buffing it? And now you want to nerf Light attacks to make sure people rely more on skills to deal damage instead of buffing them? I think i'm starting to see a trending here.

"Oh, but high APM players will still deal more damage" you might say. Yes, they will deal a negligible amout of extra damage. And i'm sure that veteran players will still use LA weave in their rotations. Because as we all know, if i have to use a combo A (LA+skill+LA+skill+LA+skill) to deal, let's say, 30k damage or a combo B (skill+skill+skill+HA+skill) to deal 25k damage, everyone knows that combo A is the obvious choice. It's not like if it would result in a strategic dominace issue.

Change the resource mechanic and increase HA damage, but don't change LA damage. And a side note: This game has specific core mechanincs attached to its combat. Changing one skill sporadically is fine, but changing the core of the game is not. You can't just swing the nerf sledgehammer when you don't know how to fix certain issues, because this doesn't fix anything. It only makes you look like if you don't know what to do with the game.

Sandman929

It's a pretty big change, but I'll adjust if it happens. I think it makes more sense. I'm certainly not going to cling to what I learned and rage that I might have to learn a new way.
My only question is, if this doesn't improve performance, why do it?

Skelfish

TBH if you guys want to go in this direction, a 50% nerf to light attack damage and proportionally lower resource return would be a more logical test than 78% damage reduction.

Not to mention, didn't you say around the time of Summerset (when light attack damage increased) that most of the playerbase doesn't actually use skills very much? That they mainly light attack and only sometimes use a skill? How does this damage nerf and sustain help the most casual of the playerbase who don't need the sustain and will find it more difficult to do content?
Those people are not the same folks who read the forums, join ESO Discord servers, or participate medium to higher group content very much. They won't know that they're supposed to heavy attack now for damage boosts, or why it's taking so much longer to kill stuff. They'll be frustrated and won't know why.

To be honest, if there wasn't a stunning lack of in-game tutorials presenting common scenarios such as light attack weaving, moving out of red stuff, potion usage, and even synergies then I think the skill floor wouldn't be quite as low. Inexperienced people find out about the stuff I mentioned by accident, or by other players explaining it to them because they're missing these (to experienced players) obvious cues.

As it stands, Elsweyr was the first tutorial area that actually explained interrupting, breaking free, and using a heavy attack to stun. I like to think that actually helped more people find their footing. Imagine if there was a tutorial starter dungeon with NPCs as team mates (who didn't suck) that showed people how to synergize, how to potion, how to light attack weave. I bet half the stuff you're trying to implement because of the skill gap could be softened to just a little nerf instead of a sledgehammer nerf.

colossalvoids

I'm really salty about one particular statement, about new players "didn't like the climb". It's so false that I can't even. I helped to lots of people through my gaming years, was it clears, trading or simple crafting requests and yet to meet one who wasn't enjoying his first vma/vmol clear, dungeon trifecta, first 40-50k on a dummy or first million gold they made all by themselves. There are surely people who dislike certain activities but aren't they same ones who hate ultimately everything? Weaving, animations, trading system, meta/non meta etc. Why should game cater to that kind of audience and not to ones who live in this ecosystem and knows it throughout? This supposed to be class representatives but it failed due to company wasn't really listening. And this now shows that nothing is changing.

Varana

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

I agree with making LA's restore resources and HA's deal more damage. In fact, it's more accurate to how Elder Scrolls games work.

Honestly, how exactly? As far as I can remember, resource return was never an effect of any kind of attack in any ES game.

Olauron

Olauron wrote: »

I like what I am reading in the patch notes. Needs a bit testing but overall seems good.

Tested it. It feels good but half-baked. Some additional thoughts wrote in the feedback thread.

LuxiasCaelum13

Varana wrote: »

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

I agree with making LA's restore resources and HA's deal more damage. In fact, it's more accurate to how Elder Scrolls games work.

Honestly, how exactly? As far as I can remember, resource return was never an effect of any kind of attack in any ES game.

Because in Elder scrolls games, Light attacks are the least resource-consuming attacks, while heavy attacks deplete your stamina bar in exchange for greater damage. Having light attacks restore resources and heavy attacks deal more damage is more close to this idea than having light attacks only for damage and heavy attacks for restoring resources

TheFM

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

I agree with making LA's restore resources and HA's deal more damage. In fact, it's more accurate to how Elder Scrolls games work.

Honestly, how exactly? As far as I can remember, resource return was never an effect of any kind of attack in any ES game.

Because in Elder scrolls games, Light attacks are the least resource-consuming attacks, while heavy attacks deplete your stamina bar in exchange for greater damage. Having light attacks restore resources and heavy attacks deal more damage is more close to this idea than having light attacks only for damage and heavy attacks for restoring resources

Except this isnt skyrim and it should never EVER play like it. -EVER-.

LuxiasCaelum13

TheFM wrote: »

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

I agree with making LA's restore resources and HA's deal more damage. In fact, it's more accurate to how Elder Scrolls games work.

Honestly, how exactly? As far as I can remember, resource return was never an effect of any kind of attack in any ES game.

Because in Elder scrolls games, Light attacks are the least resource-consuming attacks, while heavy attacks deplete your stamina bar in exchange for greater damage. Having light attacks restore resources and heavy attacks deal more damage is more close to this idea than having light attacks only for damage and heavy attacks for restoring resources

Except this isnt skyrim and it should never EVER play like it. -EVER-.

It's not skyrim and shouldn't be a copy of it, but is an Elder Scrolls game, and it should have at least some resemblances with the original products in the gameplay aspect of the game, not only via places, characters and references. That is the main reason for why FFXIV feels more like wow than a proper Final Fantasy, because besides names and jobs it doesn't have any resemblance with the actual FF franchise.

Also, who said SKyrim? That gameplay applies to Oblivion too, so...

Qbiken

TheFM wrote: »

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

I agree with making LA's restore resources and HA's deal more damage. In fact, it's more accurate to how Elder Scrolls games work.

Honestly, how exactly? As far as I can remember, resource return was never an effect of any kind of attack in any ES game.

Because in Elder scrolls games, Light attacks are the least resource-consuming attacks, while heavy attacks deplete your stamina bar in exchange for greater damage. Having light attacks restore resources and heavy attacks deal more damage is more close to this idea than having light attacks only for damage and heavy attacks for restoring resources

Except this isnt skyrim and it should never EVER play like it. -EVER-.

I mean, lets face it. The next chapter is basically Skyrim online, and these changes tries to mimic the combat that you´ve in Skyrim. The influx of skyrim fanbois will be immense with Greymore and from a business point of view it makes sense to mimic the skyrim combat system.

I´m not saying its good because it isnt, but it would make sense sadly....

naturebased

mpicklesster wrote: »

On a serious note, one alternative solution to the light attack nerfs would be to simply buff heavy attack builds to be as strong as light attack builds. That way, people with different preferences and/or motor skill restrictions can achieve the same DPS. It would also help ZOS more completely live up to their "play any way you want" mantra.

I see this solution as a win-win...win. 1) People who invested a lot of time perfecting light attack rotations don't have their efforts wasted 2) People who play heavy attack rotations because of physical limitations or limited practice time can still be competitive DPSs and 3) ZOS gets to add one more item to their list of reasons as to why their game lets you play how you want.

I personally like playing a light attack rotation because I enjoy the pace. To me, heavy attack rotations just feel slow and tedious. (I for one do NOT miss the heavy attack meta we had a while back. Remember when Sunderflame was the stamina meta?).

Imagine...if...I...wrote...this...whole...post...with...ellipses...between...every...word. That's...what...heavy...attack...rotations...feel...like...IMO.

However, I also recognize that some people might not have the time to learn a light attack rotation--or they might have a physical disability that prevents them from learning one. I don't think it's right that a physical disability could directly or indirectly bar someone from video game achievements. I know I'd feel awful if I couldn't enter a vet trial because my DPS was too low only because of a physical disability that prevented me from light attack weaving. I think buffing heavy attack builds--to match light attack builds--would help solve problems like this without completely upending the current meta.

Repost for agreement. A lot of peoples time around the world went into perfecting rotations... a change ZOS is proposing would *** a lot of people off, and especially their popular players

Mez

When I was just starting to play ESO, I almost exclusively light-attacked. Used maybe one skill every 10-20 seconds. I enjoyed the simplicity of just click to attack. I got by, leveled up, did some quests and eventually discovered how to use skills to participate in more challenging activities.

Heavy attacks are not fun and not fast paced. I'd imagine new players will just... experience a 70% Nerf to their dps. Will they stay long enough to learn skill rotation?

Troodon80

code65536 wrote: »

PART 3: WHAT I WOULD DO IF I WAS A COMBAT DESIGNER

1. Reduce light attack damage. Not by 78%. But by something more modest. 30%?
2. Increase the damage on consecutive (non-weaved) light/medium/heavy attacks.
3. All light attacks restore resources. Something small like 50. (So for someone weaving perfectly, this would be a modest 100 regen.)
4. Keep the current Live levels of heavy attack resource return.
5. Medium attack damage and resource return will be somewhere between that of a light attack and heavy attack, scaling with the duration of the channel.
6. Make Empower affect all basic weapon attacks: light/medium/heavy.

Like most of your posts, I agree. I wish I could do more than one reaction. I don't see how the changes ZOS propose come even close to lessening the gap in the way that they say they want to. I also like how you include other roles (such as tanking), which ZOS apparently hasn't thought about when making these changes. The changes all seem very DPS- centric and you're one of only a few people in this forum thread who have even brought this up.

Tanks and healers do exist. Most healers at the moment don't light attack weave. This can be for various reasons. For healers on the higher end of the spectrum, they weave because of sets like Z'en and Martial Knowledge. I also weave on my tank when possible. This won't affect them that much, or at all (in terms of damage, yes, but their use of those sets is primarily to buff the DD's DPS, not their own; that's just one side effect). But it's not something beginners do. Not only does it not lessen the gap in terms of DPS floor and ceiling, it poses new problems for those other roles such as tanks and healers, which seem to have been forgotten about when examining the changes. Beginner tanks or those who are moving to new or unfamiliar content either perma-block and heavy attack only as a last resort, or they don't bother blocking (or they don't block in time) and wonder why they got one-shot or knocked back. While it won't have much of an affect on the highest end of the spectrum, it will only cause the overall skill gap to widen. Contrary to what their proposed goal is.

Your proposals are, I believe, some of the best made so far.

naturebased

Personally, as a DPS I don’t want more sustain with LA, I can work that into my toon with different sets and enchants, what I want is MORE dps. Even with perfected false god, zaan, mothers sorrow (73.7% crit) and a rotation courtesy of xynode... I’m only hitting max 30k on a 6mil dummy and 45k on a trial atronach. No idea how some people are hitting 60k/90k respectively on it. I feel maxed out on damage.

Not to mention this change makes every build guide/video out there irrelevant... Just buff Heavy attack and call it a day (no high level player is using them at all)