PTS Combat Test - Discussion Thread

ZarkingFrued

JumpmanLane wrote: »

coradaelu wrote: »

I hope this never go to live server, "Your movement speed is no longer reduced while channeling" keep this and buff heavy attack, that's all, but dam they even change Sets, CP and everything.. I doubt they will reverse this.

They CODED it. It’s going live. They’ve put a lot of time, effort, THOUGHT into this and it’s going live. Feedback or not.

I was thinking of quitting but I got THREE mothballed BROKEN AF builds I can run off THESE proposed mechanics. And they already golded out lol.

Same same. This is set in stone, don't ever think that feedback will change anything. The people they are making this change for don't understand the game enough to give relevant feedback. The players who know enough to give relevant feedback are the players they intend to nerf. I can't comprehend why a game would be balanced around low tier gamers? I'm not trying to be mean. I'm being honest. There are only a handful of people who are good at ESO, to the point of being able to consistently X in PvP and beat the hardest modes of pve. That isn't a problem ZoS, these players are only that good from years of training their ESO reflexes, and they make content that other players watch CONSTANTLY to try to emulate them. This encourages people to play, and makes you money in turn. Seeing that high tier level of gameplay is what makes people WANT to play and get good at ESO. I'm not interested in any game that does everything in their power to prevent a top tier player base. It seems that ZOS does not want players to be good at ESO, they want for the worst player to be able to beat players who know this game in and out 1v1 based around chance.

The very basis of gaming is your reflexes and consistently nailing combos. This concept that a game should not be capable of allowing high APM makes no sense.

Maybe you should be worried about the fact that 24 players can easily team up, go around chasing down single players and small groups, kill them, and stand there doing squats over their head for 15 minutes. These are the players you're listening to. They don't want to play the game ZoS. They want hang out in voice chat, take empty keeps for AP, and only win by sheer numbers.

kalunte

Absolutely no need to test it in a PvE perspective:

if heavy attack weaving does 10% more dmg than light attack weaving the best dps will turn into a DoT/HA setup.

1) DoTs do more dmg per cast than spammable.

2) HA weaving is much slower than LA and therefor:
-gives more times for DoT to end before refresh
-makes you use less ressources for your spell
-gives more time for you ressources to fullfil themselves

combine those two facts and you are simply back to the DoT meta we had, the same meta many of us hated, but slower...

As a PvE DD this would be the very end of any possible fun.


Now in a PvP pov, well, it could be interesting but bringing a lot of unhealthy setups. if weaving LA+skills becomes weaker than tanking + HA + ULT things are going to become boring AF. Still it could be tested.


N.B: it is funny to see how unbalanced HA are between each weapons... i mean wtf? some are getting silly "cast time" reduction, or dmg or whatever.. ZoS signature about streamlining i guess...

Drdeath20

The "honk" is strong for whoever thunk up this beauty!

YandereGirlfriend

Honestly, I have no idea what these comparisons to "TES combat" are on about.

I love the mainline games as much as (or more) than anyone, but an amazing combat experience is definitely not the reason why most people enjoy playing those games (remember Morrowind???). It's the FUS-ROH-DAH off the cliff or spamming Fireballs or one-shotting a dragon from stealth, which, sadly, are all impossible within the confines of an MMO.

If we want to turn ESO into something that more closely resembles mainline TES games, it should start with eschewing the wonky kludge classes and allowing players to choose their own skills again, like you do in literally every TES game.

If that is not possible, it should restore the primacy of individual skill lines such as Conjuration, One-Handed, Unarmored, Destruction, Acrobatics, Alteration, etc. rather than laundering these traditional skills through the nonsensical Weapon and Guild lines.

Do those things and you have come closer to bringing an authentic Elder Scrolls experience to ESO than any buff to Heavy Attacks will ever accomplish.

Thannazzar

Really excited for these changes. All weapon attacks scaling of highest stat is a amazing. And the fluidity of the rotation will be vastly improved by this.

Locking forward to testing this and to the changes making it to live.

fred4

I'm sure I posted this before, but let's give ZOS the benefit of the doubt. Maybe my memory is deceiving me or there was a computer glitch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F57ZSU11UTI

RaunHunter

I have only returned to the game a couple months ago after leaving when the game got off the subscription model a long while back. So, I don't have much experience with the ongoing combat rotations, nor have I tested these changes in the PTS (still downloading it). I suppose I'll qualify as a casual player, and here are my thoughts on these supposed damage nerf:

Yes, the skill gap (or rather the damage gap) is wide. By quite a bit, in fact. Some of the long-time players I know kill dungeon bosses so fast that we don't even get to see the mechanics, while there are others who deal far lesser damage despite having played for equally long. I have seen CP500 players deal more damage than CP810s. So, I can get onboard with the desire to reduce that gap. People login to play and have fun, and them having to spend hours and hours to master a rotation to even be considered to enter a vet trial can be frustrating. Some people just don't have the time, and some people hit their hard limits. They shouldn't be punished for that.

IMHO, perfect rotation high-dps does not equate skilled execution. It equates dedicated practice and a passion to push the numbers, and there is nothing wrong with that. If anything, high-dps monotonous rotations makes things easier. Take vMA for example. When I initially struggled with the CremGuard at the last boss, one of the biggest advice I got from many of the vet players was to 'get more damage'. "Get enough damage that the CremGuard doesn't even spawn," one said. "Get enough damage that you kill the CremGuard before he begins to breathe fire," another said. I finally learnt how to handle him without doing more damage from a YouTube video; to circle him. Was it more fun and rewarding for me to actually learn that mechanic and execute that perfectly? Yes. Would it have been more fun if I had just skipped that mechanic by doing more damage? Not for me, personally.

People who want to hit the high numbers will still do; they will find the new meta and roll it out. Others will copy and succeed to varying degrees. The real question is how big the spectrum of this variation going to be. Is this going to be smaller? If so, then these changes will achieve the intended goal. If not, it's a failure. Only thoroughly tested numbers can answer that. But... it is not only about closing the gap. Is the meta after this shift fun? That's the ultimate question. If not, there is no point to the changes at all because no one is going to stick to something that's not fun.

With all that said... ZOS, what are you doing with these changes NOW?! Please fix the performance. The lag is terrible.

YandereGirlfriend

RaunHunter wrote: »

People login to play and have fun, and them having to spend hours and hours to master a rotation to even be considered to enter a vet trial can be frustrating. Some people just don't have the time, and some people hit their hard limits. They shouldn't be punished for that.

With respect, perhaps a Veteran trial isn't the venue for a casual player? That is what normal mode is intended for, after all.

RaunHunter wrote: »

IMHO, perfect rotation high-dps does not equate skilled execution. It equates dedicated practice and a passion to push the numbers, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Would we say this with regard to any other pursuit?

Are basketball players who have high 3-point percentages not "skilled" at shooting the basketball? Are baseball players with high batting averages not skilled at playing baseball? Is a master orator and debater not skilled at that pursuit as well? Of course they are. A DPS rotation is no different from these things and it requires skill accordingly.

RaunHunter wrote: »

With all that said... ZOS, what are you doing with these changes NOW?! Please fix the performance. The lag is terrible.

Now this I completely agree with.

RaunHunter

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

With respect, perhaps a Veteran trial isn't the venue for a casual player? That is what normal mode is intended for, after all.

Fair enough. There is a normal version and people who cannot/do not improve are soft-locked out of the veteran version. It's a hard pill to swallow considering this is a video game, but reasonable with the context that there are hardcore players out there who wants to be challenged.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Would we say this with regard to any other pursuit?

Are basketball players who have high 3-point percentages not "skilled" at shooting the basketball? Are baseball players with high batting averages not skilled at playing baseball? Is a master orator and debater not skilled at that pursuit as well? Of course they are. A DPS rotation is no different from these things and it requires skill accordingly.

But these sports are not just about those statistics, are they? Let me take tennis as an example, because that's a sport I'm more familiar with. Let's assume I can serve the fastest, hit the hardest. But tennis is more than just hitting fast and hard. Is hitting hard and fast important? Absolutely. Do I need to practice every day to improve and keep in shape? Definitely. But despite all that, if I don't read my opponent during the game, all my effort will be for nothing. Similarly, I'm not saying getting a DPS rotation down is not important. It is a part of the game. Not the only essential bit. And saying those who are a bit lacking in that department shouldn't be competitive is like saying 'You cannot play professional tennis if you cannot serve at least at the speed of 160mph'.

dannv

I've seen some comments here that I don't agree with. This change would mostly effect low to mid skill players. Their DPS will drop a little until sustain issues set in then it will drop while they try to get LAs to hit. Top end players will adappt rapidly and it will have little effect on them.

Heavy attacks to regain resources makes no logical sense and I wouldn't mind seeing it go, but light attacks to do the same thing doesn't make much more sense.

Beyond the logical disconnect, I'm not sure what problem they're really trying to solve. If it's too much DPS from top end players, this isn't going to do what they want. If they want to make sustain harder for low to mid level players, they'll succeed.

Trashasaurus

I appreciate the mentality that was stated in the original PTS post. I've always disliked weaving/animation cancelling in any game (not just ESO). It isn't fun, it just feels like an abuse of the combat system that should've been done away with a long time ago, before it became a requirement to achieve top DPS. And non-attack animation cancels like bash weaving, etc. should have never been a thing and should be gutted completely.

I will also say I'm not the gamer I once was. There was a time in my life where I had an extremely high APM playing RTS and MOBA games. However, I had significant surgery on my left (WASD) wrist that drove me to making use of multi-button mouses for my MMO skills with my right hand and just using my left for movement and CD skills (potions, ultimates, interrupt/roll, etc). I don't think having to do more stuff (ie: requiring more APM) in combat equates to having more skill. There are plenty of other factors in the game that play into it, and ESO is one of the more challenging MMOs I've played.

Granted, I understand that ESO is a very different MMO in terms of how combat works, and I do like ESO's combat. But let me just draw from personal experienced here: I never knew I had to weave in a light attack between all my skill uses, until I was told to do that by other players either in-game or on video/written guides. There was no "attack weaving" tutorial in the various Tutorial scenarios. Not only do you have to unlearn habits you might have formed from just playing ESO normally, but it is also undoing (in my case) over a decade of MMO conditioning that "skills do damage" and basic attacks were just fluff. There was a reason that those filler attacks were auto-attacks in other MMOs: It isn't that engaging to have to constantly think about this fraction of your overall DPS, even if it is as high as 20% in ESO. It feels more like a chore than fun.

Even without LA weaving, I feel that ESO still has a high-paced fast combat style. You're constantly flipping between bars, reapplying buffs and DOTs, and even with your build's "spammable" main damage skill, you're only ever using it a few times before you slip back to the rotation. I'll say I appreciate weaving when applying buffs/dots, as you're able to put out bits of damage while you're not using your core damage skill. But that doesn't mean I enjoy doing it. There has always been skill involved in MMO rotations. ESO having LA weaving doesn't make it more or less skilled than other notable titles. Nor does it mean that people will no longer need to practice their rotations.

With the change though I worry about two things:
1. Shifting the focus to HA - Heavy attacks in PVE content are slow in every sense: they are visually slow and they're slow in terms of DPS, which slows down the pace of combat. Don't force people to rely on them for top DPS and in turn slowing down combat.

2. Gutting builds that rely on consecutive LAs - Werewolf is the first one that comes to mind. I know there are a few other builds that rely on consecutive LAs for damage. Those should not be harmed at the expense of this change. So maybe only the first LA does less damage, but the second and third scale back up.

I agree with most of Code's post, I hope the devs take that into consideration if anything.

Skullstachio

Personally, I am all for it, but resource restore shouldn’t be removed from heavy attacks, maybe let heavy attacks restore a little bit of resources, but probably just not as much as light attacking, like maybe if heavy attacks were to restore resources akin to half that of light attacks or less, then it may be worthwhile.

TheFM

Hanokihs wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Every person annoyed by these potential changes because they don't want to take time to relearn the system & use it to their advantage, is exactly the same as a new player who thinks the combat system is tedious and doesn't want to be bothered in the first place. Just saying.

I say go ahead with the changes. Then the guys in PUGs who stand in the back only heavy-attacking can suck a bit less, and all the people clearly capable of maximizing their performance can go remaximize their performance (once their knees stop jerking, anyway).

People standing in the back do not heavy attack, they la spam. Dunno what game you are playing. Those players are still going to get clobbered by mechanics and by good players in pvp. Now instead of having lower damage and high sustain, we are going to have absurd damage, and unlimited sustain, still clobbering new players. xD

Lol the sorc masses with staves do pretty much nothing but heavy attack, even more likely if it's a lightning staff. And apparently people with ice staves have been relying a bit much on heavy attacks too, because people keep running into newbs stealing taunts in dungeons.

PVP won't change because the majority of players hate it anyway. This combat change won't matter there.

Most players hate it thats why its always locked even with the abysmal performance. OK buddy. Second, these combat changes will absolutely NEUTER builds in pvp that weave in order to deal with tank builds,and will absolutely make their heavy attacks ridiculous. Pretty much shoe horning everyone into either playing a tank, or going home. You are being petty and not objective at all.

VaxtinTheWolf

Im going to keep this short and simple. Not all of the proposed changes are any good, but lets pretend that this was going to be implemented with some adjustments. Focus on light and heavy attacks first then evaluate what further adjustments should be made to blend the changes more smoothly. Do not change gear sets yet at this point, but some of the adjustments suggested seem okay for later testing.


- Reduce light attack damage by x%, Increase heavy attack damage by x%, keep the increased scaling for medium attacks.
- The weapon specific damage seems fine, but dodging a restoration heavy channeled attack doesn't make sense to me.
- Remove resource restore from heavy attacks. light attacks do not restore resources either.
- Increase the values of class specific resource return abilities and jewelry glyphs to compensate.
- Increase the damage of some class abilities slightly to retain potential power output.
- Remove the self snare from heavy attacks, and reduce the charge time to complete a full heavy attack
- Simplify the 'off balance' effect. Just leave it at increasing incoming damage, and stun players when hit by a charged heavy.


With the changes above, you would have light attacks used for sustained damage and heavies for burst damage opportunities from the increased damage. Also, this would make restoring resources on light and heavy attacks more unique to the nightblade class due to the effect of Siphoning Strikes. A Restoration Heavy attack would also still restore a chunk of resources due to the passive by having it grant a set value instead when completed. There are other abilities that augment Light/heavy attacks to grant resources too, let them continue to do so.

Drako_Ei

I have purchased every single DLC and renewed my ESO+ since i discovered this game, even with their stupid changes to combat, especially to nightblade.

This is just too much.

MusCanus

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

Im going to keep this short and simple. Not all of the proposed changes are any good, but lets pretend that this was going to be implemented with some adjustments. Focus on light and heavy attacks first then evaluate what further adjustments should be made to blend the changes more smoothly. Do not change gear sets yet at this point, but some of the adjustments suggested seem okay for later testing.


- Reduce light attack damage by x%, Increase heavy attack damage by x%, keep the increased scaling for medium attacks.
- The weapon specific damage seems fine, but dodging a restoration heavy channeled attack doesn't make sense to me.
- Remove resource restore from heavy attacks. light attacks do not restore resources either.
- Increase the values of class specific resource return abilities and jewelry glyphs to compensate.
- Increase the damage of some class abilities slightly to retain potential power output.
- Remove the self snare from heavy attacks, and reduce the charge time to complete a full heavy attack
- Simplify the 'off balance' effect. Just leave it at increasing incoming damage, and stun players when hit by a charged heavy.


With the changes above, you would have light attacks used for sustained damage and heavies for burst damage opportunities from the increased damage. Also, this would make restoring resources on light and heavy attacks more unique to the nightblade class due to the effect of Siphoning Strikes. A Restoration Heavy attack would also still restore a chunk of resources due to the passive by having it grant a set value instead when completed. There are other abilities that augment Light/heavy attacks to grant resources too, let them continue to do so.

It makes too much sense for ZOS to consider. Only idiotic proposals/changes are allowed.

SmukkeHeks

I would like some information regarding what issue that would be fixed with this? What is it the team perceives as the problem, so this is the solution?

Because it isn’t going to fix the stability, which for the Eu side also includes the servers themselves. It isn’t going to fix the issues with the meta. It isn’t going to fix the portion of “I’m just playing like I want *stomp-in-the-ground*” players. It sure as hell isnt going to fix the zerg/ballgroup in cyrodiil.

Is it a test based on data from game, is it a test based on teams own playtime? Where did you get this idea?

Because you are creating something entirely different and it doesn’t seem to be connected to the issues I’m, many others, are describing?

Kesstryl

I have been primarily tanking and healing because I can't LA weave on my DD toons, and I don't want to have to leave the game because I can't play those roles anymore. I have carpal tunnel which means I can't do fast, dynamic rotations, so I became proficient at what I could do which is heal and tank. If I now have to light attack weave to get resources, especially for tanking which is a resource heavy using role, I can't continue to play period. I think these changes need to take into account how it will effect tanking and healing roles, and also people who have hand problems like Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and other hand disabilities. I don't want every role in game needing to light attack weave as that means I need to find another game I can play that won't hurt my hands.

Skorro

I would also love to see how this change will be communicated in game. I can almost guarantee the newish players you're doing this for, that just pew-pew their way through life, are just gonna chalk their attacks suddenly doing no more damage up to more bugs in an ever buggy game.

hashsnob

While I have had issue's with certain changes in the past, none of them irked me enough to actually submit a ticket and request a forum code, until now.

Yes, the skill gap in eso is vast, but what game doesn't have a large skill gap between its casual and higher skill player base? If your goal here is to reduce this gap, and help lower tier players become more competitive, don't lower the ceiling by nerfing light attacks and introducing a mandatory slow/boring attack format that will undoubtedly cause players to quit, simply raise the floor. Increase the damage of heavy attacks a little bit, and do nothing else. Casual players with heavy attack rotations become more relevant, and veteran players get to keep their harder, but more rewarding fast paced light attack rotations that they love. Boom, everyone's happy, win win.

The state of the game has been in a downward spiral for the last several patches, be it the ever growing performance issues (which have grown even worse after the performance update), or the irrationally large buffs and nerfs to in game ability's. Your player base told you dots were too strong, the patch still went live. Your player base told you aoe costs were too high, the patch still went live. Don't let this be yet another time the overwhelming majority of players have told you something was bad, do it anyways, then have to revert it again later. In my opinion this pts is a waste of time and resources that could be better spent elsewhere, most specifically your software team having to code up this terrible pts, instead of working on fixing what went wrong with the performance updates.

TheFM

SmukkeHeks wrote: »

I would like some information regarding what issue that would be fixed with this? What is it the team perceives as the problem, so this is the solution?

Because it isn’t going to fix the stability, which for the Eu side also includes the servers themselves. It isn’t going to fix the issues with the meta. It isn’t going to fix the portion of “I’m just playing like I want *stomp-in-the-ground*” players. It sure as hell isnt going to fix the zerg/ballgroup in cyrodiil.

Is it a test based on data from game, is it a test based on teams own playtime? Where did you get this idea?

Because you are creating something entirely different and it doesn’t seem to be connected to the issues I’m, many others, are describing?

Its not going to fix crap. Players that didnt weave before for damage will not weave after for sustain and w ill be left horribly behind in sustain, and then they will come RIGHT back on the forums and whine that their sustain went through the floor. And in pvp they will be right back here whining that my heavy attacks are hitting for 8-10 k on no cp weaved into my burst combos melting the bad players even more. Its just absolutely HILARIOUS people think this will decrease the skill gap. its mostly people who are spiteful about having to actually practice that are advocating for these changes.

nameless420

im loving it!!! please put in game!!!!!

TheFM

nameless420 wrote: »

im loving it!!! please put in game!!!!!

Thanks that you love the fact that our playstyle is being completely and utterly gutted. Maybe be a little more objective.

RusevCrush

"Today I will do what others won't, so tomorrow I can do what others can't."

Inspiring for most things, just don't apply it to ESO.

TheFM

RusevCrush wrote: »

"Today I will do what others won't, so tomorrow I can do what others can't."

Inspiring for most things, just don't apply it to ESO.

This is the only game i have ever seen where the devs think practice shouldnt be rewarded.

Squeaky_Clean

This is just change for the sake of change ..

I am still searching for the phrase "what the vision for the game is" in the patch notes. If you're still having visions, dear developers, after 5 years into the game, then go see a doctor ..

Nord_Raseri

@ZOS_BrianWheeler please don't nerf LA, Bound Armaments, AND Molag Kena. My Stamsorc werewolf main has already been gutted pretty severely (30% Dps loss), it doesn't need any more nerfs, let alone dropping my dps to effectively nothing.

karekiz

I wonder what the response would have been if they straight up said:

People are doing too much damage top end, we are reducing LA damage to bring it back down before we release the chapter that will raise it back up once players re-gear/rebuild.

I think this whole Skill gap conversion in itself is silly. Its a nerf to damage just like any other nerf to damage. Just like ALL nerfs to damage.

katorga

They are going to regret the "low APM" term.

Some tool in a PUG undaunted run was calling people "low apm" and starting kick votes last night. Lol.

fred4

It's 6:30pm. Just ventured into Cyro on my DK. Never have I seen so many positional desyncs as today, with my character dodge rolling in curves or floating through the air unpredictably. I am now in IC. My ping is around 100, there, which is really good for where I live. In other words: My Internet is not the problem.

Why do I bring it up in this thread? Because ZOS' proposals and this thread are a colossal waste of time. One paragraph spent on lip service to performance, followed by endless column inches on this pointless change, this does not convince me ZOS have made performance their top priority. I can understand them rolling out more DLC for casuals, however I don't even see the sense of this change from a business perspective. I do not agree with their stated goals, but neither do I believe these proposed changes will achieve them. At best this is a cluster-f of miscommunication. At worst it's one all round.

I've been unsubscribed since last summer and am not giving ZOS one more cent. That I'm still here is a testamenet to how fundamentally good the combat in this game is, but the only thing that will convince me to invest more money is ZOS demonstrating that they are actually able to fix performance. Judging by their record with bugs and performance, not least recent bugs related to block, piling on more combat changes, ones to core mechanics that have far reaching implications, moves us in the wrong direction entirely.