PTS Combat Test - Discussion Thread

Seminolegirl1992

mpicklesster wrote: »

On a serious note, one alternative solution to the light attack nerfs would be to simply buff heavy attack builds to be as strong as light attack builds. That way, people with different preferences and/or motor skill restrictions can achieve the same DPS. It would also help ZOS more completely live up to their "play any way you want" mantra.

I see this solution as a win-win...win. 1) People who invested a lot of time perfecting light attack rotations don't have their efforts wasted 2) People who play heavy attack rotations because of physical limitations or limited practice time can still be competitive DPSs and 3) ZOS gets to add one more item to their list of reasons as to why their game lets you play how you want.

I personally like playing a light attack rotation because I enjoy the pace. To me, heavy attack rotations just feel slow and tedious. (I for one do NOT miss the heavy attack meta we had a while back. Remember when Sunderflame was the stamina meta?).

Imagine...if...I...wrote...this...whole...post...with...ellipses...between...every...word. That's...what...heavy...attack...rotations...feel...like...IMO.

However, I also recognize that some people might not have the time to learn a light attack rotation--or they might have a physical disability that prevents them from learning one. I don't think it's right that a physical disability could directly or indirectly bar someone from video game achievements. I know I'd feel awful if I couldn't enter a vet trial because my DPS was too low only because of a physical disability that prevented me from light attack weaving. I think buffing heavy attack builds--to match light attack builds--would help solve problems like this without completely upending the current meta.

@ZOS_GinaBruno this is a very good suggestion. I despise heavy attack builds vehemently. It would make more sense to buff heavy attacks and keep the mantra "play how you want." Rather than force players to completely change their playstyle to suit those who are learning. I also disagree with the idea that learning players don't like learning how to get better. I absolutely loved learning how to light attack weave and improve my gameplay. Achieving more and becoming better IS fun.

gabriebe

Instead of changing the whole system, can't they just rework it more gradually?

Like say 5 consecutive light attacks in the current system do 30k damage (6k Damage each) over 5 seconds, you could change it so that each gets weaker if they are cast within that time limit.

So you get something like:
LA1: 8k
LA2: 7K
LA3: 6k
LA4: 5k
LA5: 4K

You're frontloading it so the newbies can get a chance, and you don't really change the damage for experienced players. The structure also allows PvP players to time burst more effectively, while not changing the overall damage.

ZarkingFrued

This will undoubtedly be the last straw for every good PvP player in the game. Every streamer that promotes your game. Every player who understands your game. How in reality can you justify a player who is better at combos of skills not performing better? That is literally the base of how a video game works. If I'm more accurate and quick with my responses I win. If you're more accurate and quick you win. This literally boils down to pong my guys. This is not chess where you have unlimited time to move, it's a video game. No one will care about a slowed down version of ESO.

WildRaptorX

Bring back the ability to hold down a bow heavy attack

FakeFox

Arca94 wrote: »

So ZOS removed my meme on the quote from the notes:

"There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."

But my point stands.

What incentive is there for veteran players of this game if that^^ deluded, absurd statement is a "drawback" to your combat system?

What game doesn't want to reward players who master it?

This comment, along with the clearly neglected performance feels like ZOS is finally throwing down the gauntlet and telling vet players that they don't want us here anymore.

It's 2020 and mechanical difficulty is now officially a "drawback." That's just great.

Vajrak

I've been discussing how changes similar to this would impact the game and adjust the meta, with many individuals, since the combat update that made Light attacks so prevalent. While I appreciate the direction that is being explored, it is too far overtuned. What you have an option for here is a way to not just create a new meta, or reinforcing the current one where light-attack weaving is optimal choice, but also opening new playstyles WITHOUT requiring massive changes to sets and rebalancing.

Tune Light Attack base damage down by 40-45%, boost Heavy Attack damage by ~12 (so the current 10% approximate is close).

The resource restore change to light from heavy is fine, as is the Medium damage scaling with time held, but also add in a resource scaling so that medium attacks do an element of both -- some restore and some improved damage, with the ratio changing in relation to the time held. Improve the restored resource on LA by 33%, and get rid of the stacking boost to resources. Replace it with a 3/4/5% stacking damage done buff to class skills, on a 6 second cycle -- this rewards the high APM/practiced player while not overly punishing low APM players.

Make the change to resource restore based NOT on weapon type, but on players highest resource. Make the damage of light attack based NOT on highest resource, but scale on the combined average of both Magicka AND Stamina.

In regards to Empower -- untie it from specific attacks -- reduce the bonus to 20-25% instead of it's current, and have it apply to ALL abilities...actually empowering you for the usage.

This would allow Queen's Elegance, Molag Kena, and vMA staff boosts to be left basically untouched, open up LA/HA focused builds, but also re-orient class identity because there is more reward potential from using class skills. It also opens up what players have been asking for for a long time -- the ability to use multiple weapon types as different classes, without suffering for doing so, as your primary resource NOT your choice of weapon will determine if you are a magicka or stamina optimized performer.

I still say thank you for looking at the issues, but implore you to consider these suggestions or variances of them to improve combat for everyone, while retaining a gap between high and low APM but opening up more playstyles and possibilities.

ATreeGnome

Oh good, let's bring back the heavy attack meta. Everyone loved it so much last time that half the endgame community decided to quit because they were just having too damn much fun. Plus we all know that long term players LOVE when games make massive changes to core mechanics after 6 years.

Sarcasm aside, a heavy attack meta will be nice because it will give me time to reevaluate my life between abilities.

AScaryDinosaur

To begin, I do not post this to "bash" on the developers. Game balancing is extremely difficult and I imagine these changes were not made lightly. However, I feel I must voice just how misguided these changes are to light and heavy attacks.

I have played ESO for 6 years and still possess an immense love for this game. It took me a long time to master light attack weaving and even longer to master my DPS rotation. I recognize no everyone has the time to put into this game as I have, and they are at a disadvantage simply due to inexperience. However, is the solution really to invalidate my years of experience? Is the way I play the game now invalid simply because others are at a disadvantage against those of who have put in this amount of time? I know this was done to aid more casual players, but realistically the players who have yet to learn light attack weaving will not even notice this change unless someone tells them. Veteran players are likely to be in an uproar and new players will not even understand what is going on. Not to mention when one does begin to learn light attack weave it makes the player feel accomplished and shows growth. Would you rob new players of this experience?

I am also actively teaching new players (3 currently with 1 still trying out the game) how to DPS, light attack weave, make a proper build etc. Will it not be MORE confusing to have them disregard everything I have taught them and learn an entirely new system of resource management? This difference between the skill floor and ceiling may be too high. It took me years to reach where I am now, so I will not deny this argument. Would it not be better though, to attempt to raise the floor instead?

I do not plan to simply derail your attempts at balance without suggesting changes of my own. If your intentions are truly to aid players with lower APM then consider:

Revert set changes and keep resource return as they are on live.

Reducing Light attack damage by ~5-10% (or any % you feel comfortable with). Light attacks being less important means new players will not be at such a disadvantage before learning how to weave.

Increase damage of "spammable" skills by x% (not all spammables are created equally, so I left the value as "x"). New players often rely on spamming abilities to do damage. By raising ability damage and lowering light attack damage, new players will be doing more DPS and veterans will be virtually unaffected.

Increase damage of heavy attacks by x% (again, because heavy attack damage differs greatly depending on weapon type). This would help veterans in a PVP situation, however in a DPS situation this will aid new players much more than a veteran player. Veterans likely have a DPS setup which accounts for their resource needs so they rarely run out of stat. New players do not have this knowledge yet and, as I've noticed, tend to rely mainly on heavy attacks for resource return. Increasing the damage of heavy attacks will allow new players to keep up on DPS while learning to manage their resources. \

I hope this post finds you all well, and I hope I have made my case clear. The skill gap likely ought to be addressed, but not at the expense of discrediting everything veterans have worked to achieve. Do not punish your long-time players for loving and learning your game mechanics. Please consider the points I have raised, and please do not let let these go to live as is.

Thank you for your time and I hope you are having a great day @ZOS_GinaBruno and staff!

Letho2469

Successive Light attacks grant a stacking resource buff, up to 3 consecutive attacks maxing out the benefit (without weaving abilities).

Don't like this one bit. Combat has always consisted of light attack + ability, that is mouse click + button press. My recent Molag Kena tests showed that breaking this will feel extremely odd and clunky. Please keep mouse + button pairs.

Crixus8000

Please fix performance instead of spending time doing huge changes like this. The game isn't even playable right now, and I'm sure this will just add to the issues.

Arca94

Sharee wrote: »

Pushing buttons fast =/= mastering a game.

@Sharee

Correct.

Pushing buttons fast is bad in this game. It shows you don't know how global cooldowns work. The fact that ZOS says this is currently rewarded is sadly comical.

Pushing buttons efficiently however IS mastering the game.

In fact being good at any game boils down to pushing buttons efficiently.

StShoot

Sharee wrote: »

Arca94 wrote: »

So ZOS removed my meme on the quote from the notes:

"There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible."

But my point stands.

What incentive is there for veteran players of this game if that^^ deluded, absurd statement is a "drawback" to your combat system?

What game doesn't want to reward players who master it?

Pushing buttons fast =/= mastering a game.

he didnt said "pushing buttons fast" he said "pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible", which means using skills/movement as effectiv as possible. And thats actual mastering a game

Hymzir

Well this is going to be a doozy.

Also, that's a lot to digest, so will have to think about it before really saying anything definitive about it.

However, there are couple of points I do like to say right off the bat:

The bad - Another radical redesign. Six years and counting in open beta. When will this thing finally solidify and reach maturity as a game?

Also - this is gonna *** of a bunch of people. Some of them will be those who have spent tons of time conditioning their motor reflexes to do finger jiggles on mouse buttons for that feelign of awesome leetnes. But a lot of them will be just people who are too exhausted to learn the game from scratch again.

The good - This will make things a lot more sensible to new players. Heavy attacks actually hit hard? Gee, what a revolutionary concept.

Lessening the impact of weaving is definitely a plus and something I certainly welcome to the game. Light attack weaving should be something extra that one can do, if one wants to invest the time and effort to learn it, and not be an assumed SOP required for baseline competence.

So while I am disheartened with the thought of the game changign once again in a radical manner, I'm fine with the proposed changes and happy with the concept of lessenign the impact of perfected weaving.

That's just me and my 2 cents. I'll leave it to ZOS to figure out what the actual concensus among the player base is, and whether or not going ahead with these changes is a good idea.

I do however want to note, that I do not like the item set changes. You should not change a damage set to a sustain set and vice versa. It is really irksome to realize that the thing you invested so heavily in and went ahead and golded it, no longer does the thing why you invested in it. So do re-think those item set chages okay.

diegoe0626

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Soo less potential dps but more sustain.

People will hit dummies not as hard but in any actual pve setting it wont make much of a difference.

lol light attacks are 20% of our dmg in trials, you must rp a lot.

siddique

Someone in the other thread suggested something and I think it's a brilliant idea.

Let the developers live stream Nahvii portals on hardmode on pts with the new changes. That should be enough "feedback".

SosRuvaak

i just did a test between PTS and live with my warden werewolf
i wanted to see the difference between basic attack damage, only using basic attacks no buffs or anything.

the first test was on the live server using kena and i got 16k dps
the second test was on pts and i got 5.3k dps

in werewolf form, no buffs, other than the kena.

thats pretty bad, i shouldve tested with another helm set but i think id be still just as disappointed



DO NOT LET THESE CHANGES HAPPEN. NOT EVEN THE EQUIPMENT CHANGES. ITS REALLY REALLY BAD.
why did zenimax waste time on this... this is soo frustrating when theres soo many other things that can be worked on to make the game better.

BaiterOfZergs

I’m not understanding these changes , you lower the skill level and at the same time create infinite resources scenarios.

And why did you touch Kena? I just don’t get it .

Runefang

I'll test it out on the PTS later but initial thoughts:

• The change is intuitive, heavy attacks doing more damage than light attacks makes sense
• The objective of the change seems to be to reduce the skill gap (I agree that its massive) but this change will do absolutely nothing to achieve this. Buff skill damage and nerf LA damage, you'll find that works a lot better. Add action duration reminder to the base game and this will do a TON to improve dps for the casuals who overcast dots/buffs.
• You've openly acknowledged people like the fast paced combat but then actively decided to go with this change anyway. It's like when you said you like that Iceheart is used for no-death runs but you nerfed the shield anyway.
• DPS is clearly nerfed by this change, I understand this test is primarily about how the change feels but you'll need to do something to buff DPS back to current levels.
• Heavy attacks are boring....this is the main argument against this change. End-game players will do whatever is needed to be optimal, we switch classes, races, gear, skills, rotations every single patch if needed while knowing that it only lasts 3 months. What won't change is that we want to have fun. This change is not fun!

Make heavy attacks interesting and fun to use and nobody will complain other than people who complain about change for the sake of it.

wylievc

Hmmm, interesting. I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment of the change however some of my criticisms are as follows:

Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM ... While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide

Fair, but it's important to remain that players who try harder will perform better. Closing the gap should be fine, but it should not be eliminated. Balancing in such a way to force heavy attacks for optimal damage output will feel clunky.

over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving)

Agree that light attack weaving feels forced, however, these changes aren't really addressing the necessity of light attack weaving, in fact they introduce a need for heavy attack weaving.

Finally, the concept of using light attacks for damage and heavy attacks for restore is, quite simply, unintuitive

I agree that heavy attacks should be thought of as something that does more damage, but that doesn't really mean light attacks are specifically intuitive to restore resources.

Light attacks now restore resources, and resource restore is removed from Heavy attacks.

Okay, sure, so far that sounds alright.

Successive Light attacks grant a stacking resource buff, up to 3 consecutive attacks maxing out the benefit (without weaving abilities).

I really do not like this part. This sounds like the Molag Kena set, but even more exhausting, and now forced on a core mechanical level. Consecutive light attacking feels like a complete waste of energy and time, and completely confuses/counteracts the rhythmic feeling of combat. At very least please don't balance resource management around the fact that this can be done, so it can be safely ignored by veteran players. Perhaps instead of consecutive non-woven light attacks, the resource stacks could be slightly increased with a flat value, or perhaps make consecutive light attack weaving count toward the resource stacking but have their values adjusted/decreased.

Non-fully charged Heavy Attacks (also known as Medium Attacks) now have a scaling amount of damage based on how long you hold the attack (up to a full Heavy, then it counts as a Heavy attack).

So now there is an introduced risk with medium attacks. If you don't charge them to a full heavy you are getting less damage without any additional resource regeneration. Light attacks doing significantly less damage and heavy attacking doing significantly more damage means the range of damage for medium attacks is very large. If you hold a light attack for a split second too long, you will do next to no damage as well as lose any resource regeneration (and resource stacks - which previously I mentioned I disagree with). Perhaps making medium attacks increase in damage and decrease in resource regeneration would be a solution, or perhaps making the damage range increase non-linearly to offset the resource loss at low charge-time medium attacks.

All weapon-based Light Attacks will restore 200 Stamina or Magicka per hit, depending on their type. ... Using Light Attacks in quick succession increases the resources restored by its base value, up to a maximum of 3 times. This means normal weapons' Light Attacks restore up to 1000

Firstly, is this a math error? A maximum of 3 times 200 more than a base value of 200 is 800? Secondly, further to my point above, I feel that integrating consecutive light attacks as a core mechanic will interrupt the flow and rhythm of combat as we know it. I recommend having this as an adjusted flat value, or allowing the stacking to occur through the normal use of abilities, and adjust the resource stacks return values. At very least reduce the number of required consecutive hits as they interrupt the flow of combat.

Martial weapons (Bows, Dual Wield, Two Hand, Unarmed, One Hand and Shield) return Stamina, while magical weapons (Staves) return Magicka.

Assuming a balance pass to resource management in general due to these changes, this is effectively removing the ability for Magicka builds to use "martial weapons". This would be fine if the magical weapon passive skill lines were adjusted to make them more competitive with damage output, etc.

Partially Charged Heavy Attacks (also called Medium Attacks) now start scaling at the same damage as Light Attacks, and scale up to a maximum of their respective cap, to ensure they always deal more damage than a Light Attack but never more than a fully-charged Heavy Attack.

Again, see my above point regarding medium attacks. This introduces risk in medium attacks as they do at best the damage of a heavy attack and at worst the damage of a light attack, without any scaling down of resources returned. Maye the scaling up of damage should be non-linear to compensate.

Heavy Attacks now do varying damage based upon their cast time, and are built to always deal approximately 10% more DPS when weaving them with abilities when compared to Light Attack weaving.

This is essentially forcing a player to use a "low APM" build to maximize damage, this fundamentally goes against my first point which is that you are closing a skill gap for players who want to try harder to output more damage and slowing down the fun fast-paced combat as we know it. It will force players to use heavy attack weaving to maximize damage and will fundamentally change the pace of combat. I don't think the overall damage should be increased beyond what is possible with light attack weaving even if it is balanced around long boss fights where resource regeneration will be needed. In PvP, I fear this will ruin the combat we have come to love. At best heavy attacks should allow for higher damage burst combos than light attacks, but not higher DPS.

Below are the adjustments to damage and cast times

I like the adjustments to cast times and movement speeds.

Light Attacking Off Balanced enemies adds 5 stacks to your restore, bypassing the natural 4 cap. This means Light Attacking an Off Balanced enemy restores 1200 resources immediately, and goes up to 2000 if you Light Attack in quick succession.

Again, is this a math error? 1 base stack and 3 additional stack makes up the natural 4 stack cap which would previously be shown to be 800, not 1000, or now 1200?? and adding 5 stacks (presumably to the 1 base stack) would be 1200 resources, not 2000?? Further to my above points, I feel that Off-Balance could just be a multiplier on the resource value regeneration I recommend above, making hitting someone off balance double the resources returned.

Sorcerer - Bound Armaments: This ability no longer increases the damage of your Light Attacks by 10% while slotted, since the ability already provides a strong bonus and active.

If this is an intended change, I believe that the bound armaments ability should no longer require activation in order to start accruing towards its 4 maximum and instead should remain a passive ability that can be fired off at any time when stacks (of 1, 2, 3, or 4) are gained, at the expense of not accruing stacks when it is not slotted on the current bar (since it is meant to be used on your primary bar anyways).


Overall I think there are some interesting changes proposed, but I find them currently to be needing adjustment as shown above. I've played this game for years and feel that the combat is always touted to be a fun fast-paced experience and I see the current iteration of these changes to contradict that.

Iphoites

"Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM"

This is one of, if not the most infuriating explanations as to why a change is being made.
Instead of "just accepting" the things as they are, and sugarcoating the fact that the game(and sometimes the servers) performs horribly, how about trying to figure out WHY most players STILL get low APM even on their high-end PCs after 6 years???
This whole "oh, we are aware of your performance issues and looking into them" charade is truly getting sickening.

This just sounds like another way of saying
"Yeah, here, take this, we're not actually working on hardware issues; in the meantime we'll stall you(once more) by seemingly balancing combat by what makes a difference due to lag&optimization." Gosh

diegoe0626

siddique wrote: »

Someone in the other thread suggested something and I think it's a brilliant idea.

Let the developers live stream Nahvii portals on hardmode on pts with the new changes. That should be enough "feedback".

i love this. Development team, go do nahvi portals on hardmode livestream on your pts "
efficiently"

Kittytravel

SosRuvaak wrote: »

in werewolf form, no buffs, other than the kena.

@SosRuvaak
Do you want to read the rest of the patch notes too?...

Blood Moon:

This set now increases damage of your Light Attacks by 5738, rather than 55%.
Increased the duration to 10 seconds, up from 5.
Increased the cooldown to 20 seconds, up from 15.
While active, this set reduces the amount of resources restored from your Light Attacks by 50%.

Molag Kena: This set now grants Conductor, which reduces the cost of your abilities by 20% while active, but also reduces your Weapon and Spell Damage by 511 rather than granting Overkill, which increased the cost of your abilities by 8% and increased your Weapon and Spell Damage by 516. The proc condition still remains using two Light Attacks in a row, which are now used to generate resources, so the identity of the set has flipped to accommodate that play style.

Seriously... how about read your stuff before doing testing...

@KurtAngle2 Forums bugging I guess, no idea why it quoted your name on someone else but I fixed it now.

KurtAngle2

? I didn't say that, you've got the wrong quote ahahhaha

ImGru

I love the changes.
Combat becomes newbie friendlier and slower by each patch to the point that there will be no better players, just fights between groups of 12+ spamming regeneration, snipes, HA and full cast crystal shards with 3 pets.

ESO Community can clearly see that you are going for the casual player base by lowering skill ceiling since slower combat benefits servers and slower players which is the most of the player base. Even if this won't go through, after few patches we will get same s*** in different plate. (More cast times, slower game mechanics).

I really do hope that these changes can pass through the PTS and I can finally let go of my addiction.

Dubhliam

I have already cancelled my 6 month sub a long time ago.

It expires this April.

This will come as a welcome excuse for many to finally stop playing this game for good.

Nord_Raseri

I already lost 20k+ dps during the last rounds of nerfs on my werewolf, now nerfing LA dmg I won't even bother running dlc dungeons on normal after that. Please just remove werewolves from the game, there's no purpose to them anymore. Also the HUGE nerf to moleg kena and bound armaments, my stamsorc werewolf (which I've been running Db because ww is trash) is completely, utterly, rendered useless. I have lost any last shreds of hope I had left for this game reading those patch notes.

Wyrd88

Okay, and I thought that nothing can be worse then Morrowind patch lol.
At this moment I'm not even sure..
Is this an out of season april fools joke? ©

FlawlessXD

Sustain seems to be fine right now so I'm not sure why LA's are now returning resources.

Also when you talk about these changes in terms of APM, what you're really doing is disguising the fact that you're trying to bridge the skill gap between players who spent time learning how to weave and players who don't want to do that.

SosRuvaak

Kittytravel wrote: »

SosRuvaak wrote: »

in werewolf form, no buffs, other than the kena.

@SosRuvaak
Do you want to read the rest of the patch notes too?...

Blood Moon:

This set now increases damage of your Light Attacks by 5738, rather than 55%.
Increased the duration to 10 seconds, up from 5.
Increased the cooldown to 20 seconds, up from 15.
While active, this set reduces the amount of resources restored from your Light Attacks by 50%.

Molag Kena: This set now grants Conductor, which reduces the cost of your abilities by 20% while active, but also reduces your Weapon and Spell Damage by 511 rather than granting Overkill, which increased the cost of your abilities by 8% and increased your Weapon and Spell Damage by 516. The proc condition still remains using two Light Attacks in a row, which are now used to generate resources, so the identity of the set has flipped to accommodate that play style.

Seriously... how about read your stuff before doing testing...

@KurtAngle2 Forums bugging I guess, no idea why it quoted your name on someone else but I fixed it now.

NO U


read my post more

unbuffed, with just kena -511 attack damage and 5k is still really poor in any case.
sure, i couldve put on another set, but i wanted to test how much of a nerf molag kena took. its pretty big, the extra resources are useless when theres no damage.

regime211

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for the Light and Heavy attack changes currently on the PTS. If you’d like to discuss these changes with other players, this is the place to do it! If you’ve tested these changes on the PTS and would like to provide feedback, please do so in-game via /feedback or use this forum thread.

I'm not trying to be mean, but ALL these cha ges absolutely will do nothing to help the game because the performance is beyond unplayable at times. I used to be able to play for hours and despite load screens and blue screens still play, but your guys focus is completely not on fixing the game. And I feel like you guys go and Nerf things that have no reason to be nerfed. Molag Kena gets a buff and then you nerf it? Half of the time when I play in pvp I never notice any of this so called over powered sets/Builds. I don't know how you guys collect your data on making these changes but half the time it seems completely inaccurate and not even reasonable. The only thing I agree on is that Heavy attacks should do more damage, but everything else I'm at a lost I hardly care to play this game anymore.