PTS Combat Test - Discussion Thread

Thevampirenight

MyPrist wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Got to thinking about some of the replies here, maybe the changes are indeed them attempting to make the game feel more like the single player tes games. I mean they want to build on what made those games so successful in a way this is a theme park mmorpg.

So maybe these current changes are not because they are just wanting to change things. But are part of a much bigger vision and ambition to align combat with the Single Player games while mixing it with the fast paced combat that Eso players like. Thus mixing together both worlds so to speak. Some people here were talking about this and to me it made sense and there is that chance for this being an actual possibility.

I would not mind them doing these changes if it was for that reason. Because to have the game be more a Tes style game then an mmo/mmorpg would be neat if they do more to align with that and make it feel more like Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. When it comes to the combat well not Morrowind's except more more weapon skill line possibilities. However mixing Oblivion and Skyrim combat with the unique combat that Eso Players enjoy would be nice. The nostalgia levels would rise for sure and it might attract some of those players back if they did this and have stopped playing because it was to much like an mmo.

I think it already will be solo player game, or may be 2 players will be online some times.

Do not put too much hope in them.

For example some skills did not work correct 9-10 month !!! I spam about it too each ZOS pm i found every day !!! After 1 say - ok we will fix i stop BUT:

Even after they fix it (it was broken 3 times !!! In this 9 month and had different bugs !!!), they fix it but made WRONG patch notes info.

Can you just imagin it ?

It is magick, even do not know what you are fixing, when do patch notes !!!

Nah its likely what would happen is those players that do leave get replaced by those that would enjoy a more Tes feel to the gameplay. Tes has a big fandom just like other ips out there and Skyrim really put it on the map. If Eso becomes more like Oblivion and Skyrim mechanically while keeping the unique Eso Mechanics like the faced paced game play those players would likely start to flock to the game.

So yeah I disagree as people leave people will come in. That is if they leave and are not just blowing steam. So in a way a revived Eso with Tes Style gameplay that is less mmoish could be a good benefit for the game and the Ip and that could draw players in to the door as people exist the building. As they could start selling to Hard Core Elder Scrolls Fans. Many players might just see it as another mmo but well Zenimax could make it to be more then a simple Mmo/Mmorpg. If they put work into it going direction could benefit the servers because with those types of I must be god tier fast game play min max a with that demand this nerf demand they don't do this or else I don't give you money types will leave and Hard core Tes fans and typically single player players that want an online single player styled game experience only just multiplayer come in and fill up their shoes and well that could get Zenimax a lot of money and subscriptions if they got these types of players as they wait for Tes Six. So the direction could be beneficial to Zenimax and Bethesda as they could sell it off as actually being more like the Single player experience but with friends.

I think The Secret World Mmo was converted to be this basically and rebranded Secret World Legends. They could convert Eso to be similar but mechanically using single player elements while keeping animation canceling and making this the new selling point. But not doing the changes that funcom did to their mmo and thus Zenimax should allow players to still have the freedom Eso has now and not doing the limiting instance thing Funcom did to Secret world. I didn't get the chance to actually play the mmo version but I did play the Secret world legends for a little bit then stopped playing it. So Zenimax has many options if they go the Secret World Route and go the Tes with Friends route while making it feel more like a single player rpg game without reducing the number of players per instance nor locking questlines to unlock other questlines.

Anthony_Arndt

My life is a bit busy, so I haven't had time for the PTS since... Summerset? I honestly can't remember. But these LA/HA changes caught my eye and I am torn. I think they're actually an interesting and logical change from the point of view of realistically representing a fight. But I think the changes are going to be horribly punishing and just unfun for rookie and younger players.

First, why I don't like the changes.

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Noobs don't weave light attacks, true enough...they SPAM light attacks. How will the changes help noobs at all?

Mez wrote: »

When I was just starting to play ESO, I almost exclusively light-attacked. Used maybe one skill every 10-20 seconds. I enjoyed the simplicity of just click to attack. I got by, leveled up, did some quests and eventually discovered how to use skills to participate in more challenging activities.

Heavy attacks are not fun and not fast paced. I'd imagine new players will just... experience a 70% Nerf to their dps. Will they stay long enough to learn skill rotation?

code65536 wrote: »

I consider that the two overall goals here are:

1. Reducing the effect of the skill gap. To be clear, it is good to have a skill gap. The amount by which that skill gap translates into power is the thing that needs some adjustment.
2. Making light and heavy attacks more intuitive.

PART 1: ADDRESSING THE POWER GAP

1. Players who mostly use their basic weapon attacks. The so-called "light-attack spammers" or "heavy-attack spammers".
   • Keep in mind that in most games, your basic weapon attacks--e.g., pointing and shooting your gun--is the primary way you do damage and that abilities are things that you cast every now and then to augment that damage or for utility. In ESO, abilities make up most of your damage and basic weapon attacks augment that damage, which can be counter-intuitive for someone who's used to, say, shooters, but is new to ESO, so it's perfectly understandable to see a new player just doing "light-attack spam" because that's kinda natural, if you think about it.
   
   For someone spamming light attacks, well, it's not pretty. The fight duration tripled, so the DPS was cut by around 2/3 (less than the 78% nominal nerf because of damage from things like weapon enchantments).
   
   I don't think that these changes help the proverbial "floor". On Live, both heavy-attack spam and light-attack spam does similar amounts of overall DPS. On the PTS, heavy-attack spam was mildly buffed, while light-attack spam was thrown into the gutter. I don't see how this helps the "floor". At all. If anything, I would argue that these changes hurt them more than it helps them, as it strips away combat options and forces these kinds of players into using only heavy attacks.

This is why this changes are going to be horrible for some players. My son has been playing with my wife and I for 3 years. He's done dungeons with us. We have him on DPS with absolutely no ability to taunt. He's 5.

We've been teaching him to use his skills more. But his main is a pet sorcerer, so 2 of his 6 slots on each bar are taken by pets. Leaving 3 skills and his ult. He mostly LA spams and moves around to NOT STAND IN THE FIRE. And he can do that. Since he's been playing literally as long as he can remember, we'll be able to teach him to switch to be HA spamming, when in ESO. But this will drastically raise the skill level needed to start playing ESO effectively. And since Day 1 of early release, I've met a number of parents who play ESO with their kids (a number of the Devs even) and our son wasn't the only 2-year-old running around Tamriel. We used ESO as an MMO trainer, and now our son can comfortably play SWTOR and is starting to play CoH.

These changes will make it more difficult for new players, especially players new to MMOs to get started. Rookies players will need more help than before. Help from either other real-world people (friends, parents, guildmates, etc.) or out of game meta-knowledge (websites, combat add-ons, etc.).

If these changes go live, I really think they should redo all of the intro quests to include a section where combat mechanics are trained.

(And then give us a chance to pick up any of the intro quests that we have missed with our existing characters. I'm maxed out on my character slots but after escaping from Coldharbour three times, I always skipped the intros. Then my son created a new character after Elsweyr launched... and his intro was in Elsweyr? What the heck? How many intros are there now?)

Anthony_Arndt

Here's the part I like about the changes, even if I don't think they're necessarily a good idea for a game, and why I disagree a bit with Code.

code65536 wrote: »

PART 2: LIGHT/HEAVY ATTACKS SHOULD BE INTUITIVE

You're right: Heavy attacks restoring resources, while light attacks do not, is not intuitive. But... How on earth is the opposite intuitive?! A new player is going to be just as confused about light-attacks restoring resources as they are with the current arrangement on Live.

So what would be intuitive?

Simple: Stop treating light and heavy attacks differently!

Both light and heavy attacks should restore resources. A light attack should restore a very small, token amount (50?). And heavy attacks should restore the same amount as they do now. And medium attacks should restore somewhere between the two, scaled with the duration of the channel.

That's how you make intuitive mechanics. A heavy attack should just be a heavier, stronger light attack. Period. Don't have some silly nonsense where a light attack restores resources, but if a players holds onto the button for just a fraction of a second too long and it turns into a medium attack, then they get nothing. Don't have some silly nonsense where if someone is charging a heavy attack because they are out of resources, but if they let go of that attack just a fraction of a second too soon and it turns into a medium attack, then they get nothing.

Light attacks should do a modest amount of damage and return a small amount of resources. And heavy attacks should do the same, except more: more damage, more resource return. And medium attacks should scale between the two and do a medium amount of damage and return a medium amount of resources. This is the logical, straightfoward thing to do, and it bewilders me that it doesn't work like this.

A heavy attack is slow and requires a channel, so it should be more rewarding in all aspects. How does "hey, you do more damage as a tradeoff for this annoying channel, but oh no, you don't get any resources back" make any sense?

I've been doing some form of martial arts or fighting sports since 1987. I appreciate a certain amount of realism in my games. Which is why I still love AoC's combat more than just about any other MMO's that I can think of (though LOTRO's has excellent foley effects, SWTOR's has remarkably visible skill progression, and ESO's can have a beautiful flow to it depending on your rotation).

Since 2005 I've mostly been involved with early medieval historical combat in Russia (and have been on a break since moving to Germany).

In a fight, light attacks are often feints, to control distance, to give yourself time, a breath. Your medium attacks are your normal attacks that are your bread and butter. Your heavy attacks are... heavy. They're slow, they're often telegraphed, they're mostly used after your opponent has screwed up and left themselves open, and if you screw it up, you're done. I've found this to be true in everything from fencing, to boxing, to being in a shieldwall in Russia.

So to me, and for players like me, it is perfectly intuitive.
Light attacks: low damage, gives yourself time and mobility (distance), resource restore.
Medium attacks: standard damage, no risk, no restore.
Heavy attacks: High damage, easy to see coming, high risk, no restore.

But being realistic does not necessarily make it fun.

LuxiasCaelum13

TheFM wrote: »

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

I agree with making LA's restore resources and HA's deal more damage. In fact, it's more accurate to how Elder Scrolls games work.

Honestly, how exactly? As far as I can remember, resource return was never an effect of any kind of attack in any ES game.

Because in Elder scrolls games, Light attacks are the least resource-consuming attacks, while heavy attacks deplete your stamina bar in exchange for greater damage. Having light attacks restore resources and heavy attacks deal more damage is more close to this idea than having light attacks only for damage and heavy attacks for restoring resources

Except this isnt skyrim and it should never EVER play like it. -EVER-.

It's not skyrim and shouldn't be a copy of it, but is an Elder Scrolls game, and it should have at least some resemblances with the original products in the gameplay aspect of the game, not only via places, characters and references. That is the main reason for why FFXIV feels more like wow than a proper Final Fantasy, because besides names and jobs it doesn't have any resemblance with the actual FF franchise.

Also, who said SKyrim? That gameplay applies to Oblivion too, so...

No. They made it clear when the game was released this is not skyrim, it will never be skyrim, and if you are looking for an TES game like skyrim, this is not your game. It is an mmo with fast paced combat, and dumbing it anywhere near where skyrim is, is just suicide. No one wants to just swing light and heavy attacks all day with 0 variety.

Did you actually read anything i said? Who is saying the game has to be a Skyrim replica? Stop with this straw man because no one here is asking for ESO to be like Skyrim, the only thing i pointed is the fact that the game, in order to be called "Elder Scrolls" should have at least ONE resemblance with any of the gameplay mechanics of the franchise, in this case, being that resemblance the core combat mechanic of ES games.

By your logic i assume that you would be absolutely fine if this game was a "point and click" MMO, as long as it's called "Elder Scrolls" who cares if the product actually lives up to its name, right?

That's a massive assumption on your part. I have been playing since beta, and people like you have been there from the get go saying " it's need to have more in common with skyrim.", And if that's your view, this is , nor was , nor will it ever be the game for you. And that's a good thing.

Yes, you definetely didn't read not only my previous threads, but my posts here too.
The only one assuming i want the game to be like Skyrim here is you, despite the fact i already explained why the changes may make a little sense, not because "sKyrIm", but because Elder Scrolls as a whole. Elder Scrolls, not Skyrim. Got it memorized?.

The only one making straw man fallacies here is you, so if you don't know how to discuss without putting words i didn't say in my mouth is your problem, not mine, nor the other users who legitimately justify their opinions.

And bout the "duh, i play since beta". Are you aware that all the people complaining here, including myself are veterans right? You are just like everyone else, not more, not less.

TheFM

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Got to thinking about some of the replies here, maybe the changes are indeed them attempting to make the game feel more like the single player tes games. I mean they want to build on what made those games so successful in a way this is a theme park mmorpg.

So maybe these current changes are not because they are just wanting to change things. But are part of a much bigger vision and ambition to align combat with the Single Player games while mixing it with the fast paced combat that Eso players like. Thus mixing together both worlds so to speak. Some people here were talking about this and to me it made sense and there is that chance for this being an actual possibility.

I would not mind them doing these changes if it was for that reason. Because to have the game be more a Tes style game then an mmo/mmorpg would be neat if they do more to align with that and make it feel more like Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. When it comes to the combat well not Morrowind's except more more weapon skill line possibilities. However mixing Oblivion and Skyrim combat with the unique combat that Eso Players enjoy would be nice. The nostalgia levels would rise for sure and it might attract some of those players back if they did this and have stopped playing because it was to much like an mmo.

This isn't Skyrim, it shouldn't be like Skyrim, it was never like Skyrim and people that want it like that are in the wrong place! This game is massively successful on its own, with the current design, wedo not need a fekkin Skyrim style boring potato style system! No one wants to have to heavy attack all the time again. And judging from the overwhelming negative response I am right.

Hanokihs

Every person annoyed by these potential changes because they don't want to take time to relearn the system & use it to their advantage, is exactly the same as a new player who thinks the combat system is tedious and doesn't want to be bothered in the first place. Just saying.

I say go ahead with the changes. Then the guys in PUGs who stand in the back only heavy-attacking can suck a bit less, and all the people clearly capable of maximizing their performance can go remaximize their performance (once their knees stop jerking, anyway).

ricklaverd

uhm that will not close the gap btwn good n bad players imo.In dept tutorials would help alot thou.When you start the game it looks very complicated. Alot of new players when they reach lvl 10 ; if they do go to pvp they get killed so fast they might be scared to even go back. Nerfing la attacks would be a huge nerf to magplars so you would have to buff empower to compensate for the dps lose in pve.

ricklaverd

mpicklesster wrote: »

With such a large nerf to light attack damage (78%!), I'm glad that you made sure to buff vMA destro staves in another way to compensate--given that their sole function was to buff light (and heavy attack) damage.

<Checks patch notes>

Wait...why was there no mention of vMA destro staves?...in a PTS about light attack nerfing and rebalancing?

Also--what about skills and classes that depend heavily on light attack damage? Like Elemental Weapon and Night Blades, respectively. I saw no mention of either in the patch notes.

you forgot magplars bro the skill that gives them empower is pretty much gonna empower nothing lol

Caelc

there is so many skills that still need to change. I am not sure how they know how much more of a rework is needed.

Nyqwont

Radically changing how the core combat works in a game is going to discourage a lot of people at first no matter how that core mechanic ends up.
Especially because ESO certainly doesn't teach players these specific mechanics in-game. I went to (had to) seek outside help and I'm still not great at LA weaving.

Now the core mechanics of combat are changing - do all the players who've spent weeks/months/years learning the combat in a game have the time /energy to invest to re-learn?

Is ESO going to offer tutorials in game to cut down on the time it will take to unlearn old muscle memory /learn new? Likely not.
Likely, the game and the minds behind it will rely on largely known players to invest time into testing and then compose guides for the majority of players that don't have the time to invest to do it themselves.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with in depth mechanic guides, they're a large part of almost any game. But it takes time to read, to learn and to practice. And I imagine telling a large portion of the player base that the practice they invested in the game so far is worth a lot less than it used to be isn't a positive experience, and that if they want to maintain the level of play they now have to invest that same practice time over again...
Well... Maybe push up the patch date so we can all practice in quarantine while we have the time 😉

LuxiasCaelum13

Hanokihs wrote: »

Every person annoyed by these potential changes because they don't want to take time to relearn the system & use it to their advantage, is exactly the same as a new player who thinks the combat system is tedious and doesn't want to be bothered in the first place. Just saying.

I say go ahead with the changes. Then the guys in PUGs who stand in the back only heavy-attacking can suck a bit less, and all the people clearly capable of maximizing their performance can go remaximize their performance (once their knees stop jerking, anyway).

Actually not. Veterans are always the most affected by these changes, because while new players only have to learn once, since they start from 0, veterans have to learn each time a patch changes skills or mechanics. Veterans had to learn when they were new, they had to learn when their skills change, they had to learn when ZoS overhauled classes and they will have to learn when this change hits the live version. It's not the same, because one player has to do the job one time, and the other player has to do it multiple times.

Hanokihs

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Every person annoyed by these potential changes because they don't want to take time to relearn the system & use it to their advantage, is exactly the same as a new player who thinks the combat system is tedious and doesn't want to be bothered in the first place. Just saying.

I say go ahead with the changes. Then the guys in PUGs who stand in the back only heavy-attacking can suck a bit less, and all the people clearly capable of maximizing their performance can go remaximize their performance (once their knees stop jerking, anyway).

Actually not. Veterans are always the most affected by these changes, because while new players only have to learn once, since they start from 0, veterans have to learn each time a patch changes skills or mechanics. Veterans had to learn when they were new, they had to learn when their skills change, they had to learn when ZoS overhauled classes and they will have to learn when this change hits the live version. It's not the same, because one player has to do the job one time, and the other player has to do it multiple times.

Technically, it's been this way before - this "Heavy Attacks do all the real damage and Light Attacks give resources" system isn't new. So the most Veteran of Vet players should feel right at home with these changes, since it's what they initially learned in the first place.

TheFM

Hanokihs wrote: »

Every person annoyed by these potential changes because they don't want to take time to relearn the system & use it to their advantage, is exactly the same as a new player who thinks the combat system is tedious and doesn't want to be bothered in the first place. Just saying.

I say go ahead with the changes. Then the guys in PUGs who stand in the back only heavy-attacking can suck a bit less, and all the people clearly capable of maximizing their performance can go remaximize their performance (once their knees stop jerking, anyway).

People standing in the back do not heavy attack, they la spam. Dunno what game you are playing. Those players are still going to get clobbered by mechanics and by good players in pvp. Now instead of having lower damage and high sustain, we are going to have absurd damage, and unlimited sustain, still clobbering new players. xD

LuxiasCaelum13

Hanokihs wrote: »

LuxiasCaelum13 wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Every person annoyed by these potential changes because they don't want to take time to relearn the system & use it to their advantage, is exactly the same as a new player who thinks the combat system is tedious and doesn't want to be bothered in the first place. Just saying.

I say go ahead with the changes. Then the guys in PUGs who stand in the back only heavy-attacking can suck a bit less, and all the people clearly capable of maximizing their performance can go remaximize their performance (once their knees stop jerking, anyway).

Actually not. Veterans are always the most affected by these changes, because while new players only have to learn once, since they start from 0, veterans have to learn each time a patch changes skills or mechanics. Veterans had to learn when they were new, they had to learn when their skills change, they had to learn when ZoS overhauled classes and they will have to learn when this change hits the live version. It's not the same, because one player has to do the job one time, and the other player has to do it multiple times.

Technically, it's been this way before - this "Heavy Attacks do all the real damage and Light Attacks give resources" system isn't new. So the most Veteran of Vet players should feel right at home with these changes, since it's what they initially learned in the first place.

The problem isn't the resource restore mechanic, is the LA damage nerf. Making LA's restore resources is a buff, and making heavies deal more damage instead of restoring resources is way more intuitive (in fact it's okay for me), but that's not the problem.

The problem comes when the devs decide it would be a good idea to nerf LA damage by 80% to make players with studied rotations and training be on par with people who don't want to learn a mechanic as simple as LA weaving. Because the results will be the same, low APM players won't care, as long as they have to work in their rotations and invest some time they won't see much improvement, while vets will have to re-learn their rotations again and adapt them to the new attacking mechanic.

ketsparrowhawk

All Light, Medium, and Heavy Attacks now scale with your highest offensive stats.

Ooooh spellsword build here I come!

All weapon-based Light Attacks will restore 200 Stamina or Magicka per hit, depending on their type.

Aww

TheFM

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

All Light, Medium, and Heavy Attacks now scale with your highest offensive stats.

Ooooh spellsword build here I come!

All weapon-based Light Attacks will restore 200 Stamina or Magicka per hit, depending on their type.

Aww

They are really good at getting us excited about something, and then pulling the rug out from underneath us.

dontpickmeimbad

Why don't we just remove all resource return from light/medium/heavy attacks (later just referred to as 'attacks')?

The benefits:

• Attacks become non-crucial for the functionality of your rotation as not doing either wouldn't affect your resource gain
• It would be easier to balance them against each other as it would be a simple numbers game. Increased activation time and damage of MA/HA would only have to make up for the decreased amount of skills that could be used alongside them. -> If done correctly, this opens up more possible builds, thus more variety which is something that eso's current combat lacks.
• Weaving would still be important in order to maximize DPS. This is important as ESO rotations are so simple that the game kind of needs the difficulty layer added by weaving. However, the gap between people who weave and those who don't could be adjusted more easily.
• Choosing the attack type or the combination of different ones would still influence your sustain as they affect the number of skills that you can use per rotation.

Some other thoughts about the idea of narrowing (not closing) the gap between players of different skill levels

• Magicka sustain needs to be changed/reworked in a way that ele drain either procs of attacks AND skills (but keep internal cd) or it needs to be removed and the sustain put somewhere else, if your goal is to improve the sustain of people who aren't good at weaving.
• It might be a good idea to nerf/rework Relequen for similar reasoning.
• The people at the very bottom wont be saved by nerfing the damage of LAs as their abysmal damage is a combination of many things and one of those things is that they simply don't use enough skills and too many light attacks. If you want to help them, your game needs to better at explaining its combat and how to make a good build.
• Another thing that would help inexperienced people (who most likely don't have addons like srendarr) as well as console players is a less awful user interface, which shows the duration of dots (similar to how cool downs are visible in other games) so people stop overcasting them relentlessly or forgetting them for extended periods of time.
• A DPS gap between better and worse players will exist regardless of the importance of weaving. Even if it was removed completely, more experienced players would outperform the less experienced ones. No need to be butt hurt or anxious about being less 'special'.
• Overall dps is so high that almost all older content (including hard modes) is trivialized for good players. As such, a dps nerf might be a good idea in general as it would help to make older content a bit more interesting again. Would be best if this affected mostly the higher end though, so the players who already struggle with it aren't discouraged.

5cript

I will kick auto attack bow players from dungeons now.
I usually drag these stones, but nah ah. not with them being an empty slot.
Good way to learn right? </sarcasm>

Beginners (<CP160) will do even less damage with this change.
And I think this increases the pressure for dps again with this nerf.
And it becomes harder to carry low DPS players through dungeons resulting in more toxicity.

EDIT: Also I would love to test it, if I could create a max level character on PTS and maybe not get kicked every 1 minute from the server because an error occured.

Qbiken

Overall dps is so high that almost all older content (including hard modes) is trivialized for good players. As such, a dps nerf might be a good idea in general as it would help to make older content a bit more interesting again. Would be best if this affected mostly the higher end though, so the players who already struggle with it aren't discouraged.

I can assure you, that there´s is nothing you can do to make older content interesting again. Once you´ve done every single vet dungeon 300 times or every vtrial a few hundred times, it becomes boring regardless, and lowering the overall damage so it takes longer time to do will just make more people do that kind of content even less. Newer players will find the content intersting due to the fact that it´s new.

LadyNalcarya

5cript wrote: »

I will kick auto attack bow players from dungeons now.
I usually drag these stones, but nah ah. not with them being an empty slot.
Good way to learn right? </sarcasm>

Beginners (<CP160) will do even less damage with this change.
And I think this increases the pressure for dps again with this nerf.
And it becomes harder to carry low DPS players through dungeons resulting in more toxicity.

EDIT: Also I would love to test it, if I could create a max level character on PTS and maybe not get kicked every 1 minute from the server because an error occured.

This is a really good point I think.
The more they nerf overall dps, the harder it would be to carry newer players, and if veterans are gonna rage quit the game, there will be less people willing to teach these newbies.
Not to mention that it would make bash weaving more important, just to squeeze that extra dps. Which means that those who don't have good reaction time and/or ping will have even less chances to do good dps.

JohnOfMarkarth

TLDR: Dont do it. Not that way. I endorse the base idea behind it but not when performed that way. Dont change LA or HA. Instead give all damaging abilities bonus % damage the longer no light attack was used. Percentage high enough to make the massive gap much smaller ... But not so big as to make weavers = nonweavers. This opens options for: Weaverism, Hybridism (using bits of waving as well as sometimes not at all) and ... what i would call Barbarism (heavy handed approach) and makes em all viable

I am not gonna read the ten pages of comments here
1) its mostly people whom have standard light-meta oriented vet status. Trying to convince any 70+ old grandpa to use iphone is useless. And this is the same situation.
Why? cus what will someone say if they took years to learn weaving, no matter how utterly *** weaving is? That they dont want it changed. Cus they sinked time into it. Understandable. But product degrading
2) am kinda lazy to


REASONING:

But here are my two cents:

I like the initial thought behind the changes. After all the "must be fast in fingers on level of hacker in movies to even enjoy the game" made me move on to a different game. Heck even Morkal Tombat is more rewarding for the effort put into it then ESO (and am saying that despite the fact i broke my laptop's screen over MK11). So the thought behind it? I applaud and want to keep it living


How is it resolved? not the most elegant notion (pretty *** actually).

Since it doesnt make people with lower action frequency feel any more like Doomslayer from feeling like an imp... like they felt before. They still will be just imps, with this change.


Instead:
Make people whom arent 'matrix hacker-speed boys' have some benefit of their choice. If they choose to go slower. Make it go heavy (not heavy attack. i mean metaphorically).

Make speed and weight both rewarding.
If you wanna light attack weave. Go for it. If you wanna do the heavy bludgeoning, up ya go!
Of course keep a small gap for the fasties to keep. While i hate it. The Elderly do need something to keep em interested.

So my solution:


SCRATCH THAT WHOLE IDEA YOU HAD. And. Instead.

Give all damaging abilities, by default, higher damage by certain percentage if they arent made as a followup to light attack. Or based on how long wasnt a light attack used. Just enough to close the gap. But not so much as to remove it. There is magic-mikes-with-harry-potter-wands math magicians here that could calculate the exact percentage for me.

But if the gap is 20k dps? close it to 5-3k at best.
Keep em elde--- vets feelin good and keep on doin what they do. And give us, the more heavy handed lads... a tool to enjoy our barbarism.

Vevvev

code65536 wrote: »

I want to start off by saying that I am in complete 100% agreement with the "mission statement" of these PTS changes. Specifically, the following paragraph:

There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible. Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS, and can simply move around the battlefield better in both PVE and PVP. While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options. This is particularly evident in veteran content and PvP. Finally, the concept of using light attacks for damage and heavy attacks for restore is, quite simply, unintuitive – especially for less experienced players.

I agree with all of this, and I agree that something needs to be done, and I applaud ZOS for taking action. But I strongly dislike the solution that is being tried out here.

I consider that the two overall goals here are:

1. Reducing the effect of the skill gap. To be clear, it is good to have a skill gap. The amount by which that skill gap translates into power is the thing that needs some adjustment.
2. Making light and heavy attacks more intuitive.

PART 1: ADDRESSING THE POWER GAP

First, as a broad generalization, I like to think about players being put into three categories.

1. Players who mostly use their basic weapon attacks. The so-called "light-attack spammers" or "heavy-attack spammers".
   • Keep in mind that in most games, your basic weapon attacks--e.g., pointing and shooting your gun--is the primary way you do damage and that abilities are things that you cast every now and then to augment that damage or for utility. In ESO, abilities make up most of your damage and basic weapon attacks augment that damage, which can be counter-intuitive for someone who's used to, say, shooters, but is new to ESO, so it's perfectly understandable to see a new player just doing "light-attack spam" because that's kinda natural, if you think about it.
2. Players who use abilities and try to weave them, but aren't very good at it. This might be due to a lack of practice. Or, in many cases, people simply aren't able to; e.g., for older players, it can even be a little physically painful. When we look at people's DPS parses, the first thing we look at is their LA/s rate. And if it's something like 0.5, we'd say, "You need to light-attack more"; i.e., get better at weaving. I myself am only around 0.7 LA/s. I can't hit the 0.8 or 0.9+ LA/s that elite players can get, and I probably will never get there; I have my limits.
3. Elite players who have very high APM, whose rotations are fast and fluid and who don't miss their LA-weaves.

So how do the proposed changes affect each of these skill tiers?

Based on my testing on the PTS, someone who just spams heavy attacks will get a modest boost to their damage. Heavy attack damage has been increased by a modest amount, and the cast times have been reduced a little. The end result, based on some quick casual testing on the PTS is a small increase in the ballpark of around 10-20%. For someone spamming light attacks, well, it's not pretty. The fight duration tripled, so the DPS was cut by around 2/3 (less than the 78% nominal nerf because of damage from things like weapon enchantments).

I don't think that these changes help the proverbial "floor". On Live, both heavy-attack spam and light-attack spam does similar amounts of overall DPS. On the PTS, heavy-attack spam was mildly buffed, while light-attack spam was thrown into the gutter. I don't see how this helps the "floor". At all. If anything, I would argue that these changes hurt them more than it helps them, as it strips away combat options and forces these kinds of players into using only heavy attacks.

But what about the "middle class"? What about the people who try to weave abilities, but aren't able to do so that well? The amount of resource return from light attacks is immense. Without the CP buff, it's equivalent to about 400 regen for someone who weaves perfectly. Obviously, it's more once you figure in Tenacity. So while missing light attacks won't result in as much of a direct loss of damage, it still represents a significant indirect loss of damage because that sustain can be translated into damage. Choosing bi-stat food over regen food. Picking a "damage" race like Orc instead of a "sustain" race like Redguard. Using a "damage" set like New Moon Acolyte instead of a "sustain" set like Vicious Ophidian. But these kinds of shifts away from other sources of sustain will be available only to people who can weave well.

For the "upper class", yes, it's an outright nerf to power. That can be somewhat compensated for by shifting their builds further away from sustain.

But what does this do for the power gap between the "middle class" and the "upper class". Both groups will be hit hard by this, and it's not clear that they will be affected in a way that reduces the relative power gap.

And so I would like to take a moment now to talk about the Morrowind combat changes. Back when those changes were made, @ZOS_RichLambert said on ESO Live that they had two goals with the Morrowind combat changes. First, they wanted people to think about sustain again. And second, they wanted to reduce the power gap. Well, these changes seem to fly in the face of the notion that sustain should be relevant. But more importantly, the Morrowind combat changes increased the power gap between players. Yes, the sustain nerfs hit the power of the "upper class" hard. But it also hit the "middle class" even more. If you think about it, when resources are tight, then players who are more efficient at resource usage will have an advantage. Instead of using a dynamic rotation, are you using an easy static rotation that results in a couple of DoTs being recast a little early? That's wasted resources. Did you accidentally step into red and thus need to cast a self-heal to compensate for your mistake? That's wasted resources. Did you miss a light attack and thus miss out on its resource-free damage? That's less damage per resource spent.

Can you say, without any doubt, that these light/heavy attack changes will hurt the "upper class" more than it hurts the "middle class"? If not, then you're not actually closing the power gap, and this will be a repeat of the Morrowind fiasco.

But hey there's more to this game than just DPS! What about something like PvE tanking? A lot of tanking is about resource management. Wouldn't it be great if, as a tank, you could get stamina as you light-weave everything? It would trivialize resource management! Hooray! But oh wait, that means you have to drop block to weave every ability instead of block-casting, and if you're a new tank or even an experienced tank who's tanking new unfamiliar content, that's pretty darn risky. So what this means is that experienced tanks can get easy resource management, but beginner tanks who are told, "when in doubt, hold block" can't reap the benefits of this. And of course, if a tank needs an emergency injection of stamina, the old option of getting a burst of about 2.8K stamina from a single 0.8s heavy attack channel is gone. All of this simply punishes less experienced players and dramatically increase the effects of the skill gap.


PART 2: LIGHT/HEAVY ATTACKS SHOULD BE INTUITIVE

You're right: Heavy attacks restoring resources, while light attacks do not, is not intuitive. But... How on earth is the opposite intuitive?! A new player is going to be just as confused about light-attacks restoring resources as they are with the current arrangement on Live.

So what would be intuitive?

Simple: Stop treating light and heavy attacks differently!

Both light and heavy attacks should restore resources. A light attack should restore a very small, token amount (50?). And heavy attacks should restore the same amount as they do now. And medium attacks should restore somewhere between the two, scaled with the duration of the channel.

That's how you make intuitive mechanics. A heavy attack should just be a heavier, stronger light attack. Period. Don't have some silly nonsense where a light attack restores resources, but if a players holds onto the button for just a fraction of a second too long and it turns into a medium attack, then they get nothing. Don't have some silly nonsense where if someone is charging a heavy attack because they are out of resources, but if they let go of that attack just a fraction of a second too soon and it turns into a medium attack, then they get nothing.

Light attacks should do a modest amount of damage and return a small amount of resources. And heavy attacks should do the same, except more: more damage, more resource return. And medium attacks should scale between the two and do a medium amount of damage and return a medium amount of resources. This is the logical, straightfoward thing to do, and it bewilders me that it doesn't work like this.

A heavy attack is slow and requires a channel, so it should be more rewarding in all aspects. How does "hey, you do more damage as a tradeoff for this annoying channel, but oh no, you don't get any resources back" make any sense?


PART 3: WHAT I WOULD DO IF I WAS A COMBAT DESIGNER

1. Reduce light attack damage. Not by 78%. But by something more modest. 30%?
2. Increase the damage on consecutive (non-weaved) light/medium/heavy attacks.
3. All light attacks restore resources. Something small like 50. (So for someone weaving perfectly, this would be a modest 100 regen.)
4. Keep the current Live levels of heavy attack resource return.
5. Medium attack damage and resource return will be somewhere between that of a light attack and heavy attack, scaling with the duration of the channel.
6. Make Empower affect all basic weapon attacks: light/medium/heavy.
7. Edited to add: Increase the damage of spammable abilities by an amount comparable to the reduction to light attack damage. This would maintain the current power level for people who weave successfully (thus effectively shifting damage from the basic attack to the ability), while increasing the power level for those who miss weaves (they would still do less damage, but the gap would be smaller).

If you look at the current lower-APM options--what people hawk as "easy" builds--they're often light-attack-spam (werewolf) or heavy-attack-spam builds. Let's reinforce these options and make them more effective. That's why I propose increasing the damage from consecutive, non-weaved attacks. Of course, these things should not be too effective that they outclass "high-APM" options (we still want a skill gap!), but they should be more effective than they are now (thus lowering the effect of the skill gap). The increase for non-weaved attacks should more than compensate for the 30% nerf to light attack damage that I am proposing.

As for the "middle class" vs. "upper class", an outright nerf to light attack damage (without adding some secondary effect like a ridiculous 400 regen to perfect weavers) will slightly narrow the gap between the two because it will affect those with higher LA/s more than those with lower LA/s.

And finally, on the consistency/intuitiveness front, it makes no sense to apply a resource return to light attacks but not heavy attacks, just as it makes no sense to do the opposite. What makes sense, though, is for a heavy attack to just be a stronger light attack in every way--in both damage and resource return--as compensation for it being a slow channel.

Ultimately, the end result should be...

1. A raising of the bottom floor, in which people who just spam basic attacks are better off than they are on Live. A buff to consecutive, non-weaved damage will help with this (and should more than compensate for the LA damage nerf) and reinforce the current popular low-APM options. ZOS's proposal doesn't help the floor at all, since a severe nerf to LA damage with no compensation simply serves to deprive the "lower class" of combat options and forces them into only using heavy attacks.
2. A narrowing of the gap between the "middle" and "upper" classes. Reducing the damage of weaved light attacks is the key here. In contrast, ZOS's proposal just replaces the lost direct damage with indirect damage in the form of massive sustain.
3. A system where heavy attacks are more desirable, but not so desirable that people who prefer high APM feel compelled into sluggish heavy-attack rotations. While ZOS's current proposal doesn't quite push people into a HA-meta, it does come dangerously close with that insane 78% damage nerf to LAs.
4. Heavy and medium attacks should be rewarded for their cast times, which not only means more damage, but also more resource return. Be consistent.

I agree with everything code65536 has said. It is a very well thought out idea that actually makes sense for the game.

newtinmpls

Varana wrote: »

IF heavy attacks become more powerful, all staves should behave the same. Either all of them as channels, or none of them.
.

I massively disagree. I really LIKE different things working different ways (okay, I hate the taunt on the ice staff) ... mostly.

seerevaloc

ESO Combat Team:
> Buff A,B,C,D by 50%-70% (they're aware and noting this to be fixed 2 patches later)
1 month later:
> Buff E,F,G,H by 50%-70%
2 months later:
> Hammer A,B,C,D by 50/70%
1.5 months later:
> Buff P,N,R,T by 50-70%
1.5 months later:
> Hammer E,F,G,H by 50-70%
...
...
and so on.


ESO Combat Team meeting with Managing Board:
> Yes Sir, we're constantly working & keeping up to date in accordance with community to make sure incomes are stable & increasing.

Fact:
> They're actually creating their very own job need to secure their very own future to be able to tell "there is a roadmap" to higher echelons.
> The only real workers are "Lore team, dungeon designers, text-writers, community managers" etc.

My Message to the Combat Team:
> There is no such approach called "Buff 50% to Nerf 50% 2 months later" it's not tweaking. It's destructing. It's proof of you don't have any idea over what the f... you are simply doing, proof of "No vision" at all.
> There is a somehow ticking combat system, more or less satisfying. Fine tune it, 5-10-15% and within 6-7 months you can find sweet spot of skills/abilities in the harmony.

> But I know you guys doing this "intentionally". This way you will have something to do (hammer or rework need is obvious if you take this change to live, like Dragonhold times, and like all the way before it.) You are creating the need, to supply later.

This is simply what I think.

Bowser

These changes suck. Scrap 'em.

trymi

I agree, the ice staff being the only one with a taunt is bad. All staves should have taunts. This mechanic is very intuitive for new players.

/sarcasm

parpin

SavageChain wrote: »

Ok lets first state, that our game is awesome and unique, because its fast paced and people love it like that. Then lets nerf the fast paced combat and make it slow, because people love fast pace....does this make any sense.

Ok a bit more in detail:

ESO is amazing and loved as a fast paced combat game, it feels like you really can achieve something to learn this fast pace. It is rewarding a lot to get used to light attack weaving, it is skillful to do so. On the other hand heavy attacks are slow and boring. Many people left back in the heavy attack meta, because it was boring to tuck down your left mouse button. It is not skillful to press one button down all the time and try to get one skill out right after the heavy attack finishes (because you automatically queue the skill right after and you dont have to time it). Basically players, who spent time learning and improving, get nerfed, meanwhile the boring mechanic, who pretty much everybody can learn very easely gets buffed. This discourages people to learn your game, it discourages old and new players, because either they get punished for being good or they have nothing to strive for after learning an easy game play.

In addition, light attacks restoring resources is not necessary: sustain is fine, good players can sustain in PvE without heavy attacks, because they know how to do it. If you want to see heavy attacks a bit more used, just reduce its channel time a bit and you would improve the game quite a bit.

Please leave heavy attacks and light attacks as they are for the sake of your game. Nobody wants a slow game, nobody wants their effort crushed, nobody wants easy game to be effective, because you lose the reason to improve.

DPS on the trial dummies at the moment peak around 95k dps and 13-17k of it is damage from light attacks. The nerf will make that go to 3-6k dps. This would be a joke for everybody, who actually put time into the game to learn it. It is just a big "*** you" to the people caring most for the game, loving the game the most. If you want to raise the floor, then please buff heavy attacks slightly and do a decent job at teaching the new players the game, so they dont get smashed in PvP and never try it again, so they dont get kicked from groups because their dps is low or they die all the time.

And please, before you do any big chances to the game, improve performance in PvP and fix your game.

totally agree with u man, i am playing as healer and started playing 3 years ago, i learnt how to heal by learning boss fight mechanics and learning when to use my heal skills and which skills, rather than casting heal skills mindlessly and use LA to get magika/resources back, like what ZOS suggesting, basically changing combat system to cater to those who want to play without thinking, despite that if you play smartly as healer, you do not need to constantly attack to get resources back, healers who need to get resources back constantly are players who do not pay attention and they cast healing skill too much without thinking that they run out of resources fast, and ZOS is suggesting to change combat so those people will get resources back with LA, basically catering to those king of people, having 1100 magika/stamina recovery minimum and casting HA smartly is more than enough to get resources back and not run out of it, and top of all learn the boss fight mechanism.
so from healer perspective current combat is totally fine and easy to learn, this massive changes to combat will have bad effect on the game and they are unnecessary, ZOS please do not change combat, it is fine.

StormBDragon

I've been playing ESO since release. I remember reading the Patch Notes for every update with great excitement. My favourite MMO was constantly improving, it was just getting better and better.

When One Tamriel came, the game changed drastically, and combat was heavily modified. At first, I was concerned, but then I thought "These are dramatic changes, but I guess ZOS know what they're doing." I adapted, modified my playstyle and remained a faithful player.

Then Morrowind came, and for the first time, I experienced fear. The horrible sustain nerfs that accompanied said update were huge. I remember struggling with combat, revising my every build on every character, until I eventually adapted. At this point, I was now doubting the people at ZOS.

Then came Nerfmire, and the feeling of dread within me intensified. I remember reading the Patch Notes and coming across the damage shield nerfs. I couldn't believe what was happening. I remember pinching my arm, for I thought I was having a nightmare.

By now, everything was clear to me. With every update, ZOS would modify the game by adding Quality of Life improvements, while degrading combat. I decided to stay, just to see how bad it could get. By this point, most of my playing time consisted of crafting, trading, gathering materials, furnishing homes, and playing the fashion endgame.

And then, we had Skillbreaker. I remember my stomach turning when I opened the Patch Notes. I really didn't want to read them, for I was now familiar with the feelings that would ensue. I then considered the fact that the people at ZOS rarely listen to player feedback. I felt even worse, to the point of taking a week-long break from ESO, which I had never done before.

I live in a small town, and I have crap Internet. I usually avoid things like Cyrodiil and trials, since the lag kills the enjoyment for me. Light Attack weaving is impossible, as my LAs usually won't register. Instead of weaving, I add Heavy Attacks to my rotations. I haven't been able to cross the 50k DPS barrier, but I really don't care, as I can do most content just fine.

This, however, is the nail in the coffin for me, the drop that spilled the cup. If this goes live, I'll have to finally quit. This "change" would force many of us to rely on LAs for sustain. And those of us who have crap Internet and can't LA effectively? Yeah, totally screwed.

They say there's a real possibility of these changes not making it to the live servers, but most of us know that is not true. We can only revert these changes if we make a big racket, but then again, a lot of players will like this, so...

CleymenZero

code65536 wrote: »

I want to start off by saying that I am in complete 100% agreement with the "mission statement" of these PTS changes. Specifically, the following paragraph:

There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible. Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS, and can simply move around the battlefield better in both PVE and PVP. While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options. This is particularly evident in veteran content and PvP. Finally, the concept of using light attacks for damage and heavy attacks for restore is, quite simply, unintuitive – especially for less experienced players.

I agree with all of this, and I agree that something needs to be done, and I applaud ZOS for taking action. But I strongly dislike the solution that is being tried out here.

I consider that the two overall goals here are:

1. Reducing the effect of the skill gap. To be clear, it is good to have a skill gap. The amount by which that skill gap translates into power is the thing that needs some adjustment.
2. Making light and heavy attacks more intuitive.

PART 1: ADDRESSING THE POWER GAP

First, as a broad generalization, I like to think about players being put into three categories.

1. Players who mostly use their basic weapon attacks. The so-called "light-attack spammers" or "heavy-attack spammers".
   • Keep in mind that in most games, your basic weapon attacks--e.g., pointing and shooting your gun--is the primary way you do damage and that abilities are things that you cast every now and then to augment that damage or for utility. In ESO, abilities make up most of your damage and basic weapon attacks augment that damage, which can be counter-intuitive for someone who's used to, say, shooters, but is new to ESO, so it's perfectly understandable to see a new player just doing "light-attack spam" because that's kinda natural, if you think about it.
2. Players who use abilities and try to weave them, but aren't very good at it. This might be due to a lack of practice. Or, in many cases, people simply aren't able to; e.g., for older players, it can even be a little physically painful. When we look at people's DPS parses, the first thing we look at is their LA/s rate. And if it's something like 0.5, we'd say, "You need to light-attack more"; i.e., get better at weaving. I myself am only around 0.7 LA/s. I can't hit the 0.8 or 0.9+ LA/s that elite players can get, and I probably will never get there; I have my limits.
3. Elite players who have very high APM, whose rotations are fast and fluid and who don't miss their LA-weaves.

So how do the proposed changes affect each of these skill tiers?

Based on my testing on the PTS, someone who just spams heavy attacks will get a modest boost to their damage. Heavy attack damage has been increased by a modest amount, and the cast times have been reduced a little. The end result, based on some quick casual testing on the PTS is a small increase in the ballpark of around 10-20%. For someone spamming light attacks, well, it's not pretty. The fight duration tripled, so the DPS was cut by around 2/3 (less than the 78% nominal nerf because of damage from things like weapon enchantments).

I don't think that these changes help the proverbial "floor". On Live, both heavy-attack spam and light-attack spam does similar amounts of overall DPS. On the PTS, heavy-attack spam was mildly buffed, while light-attack spam was thrown into the gutter. I don't see how this helps the "floor". At all. If anything, I would argue that these changes hurt them more than it helps them, as it strips away combat options and forces these kinds of players into using only heavy attacks.

But what about the "middle class"? What about the people who try to weave abilities, but aren't able to do so that well? The amount of resource return from light attacks is immense. Without the CP buff, it's equivalent to about 400 regen for someone who weaves perfectly. Obviously, it's more once you figure in Tenacity. So while missing light attacks won't result in as much of a direct loss of damage, it still represents a significant indirect loss of damage because that sustain can be translated into damage. Choosing bi-stat food over regen food. Picking a "damage" race like Orc instead of a "sustain" race like Redguard. Using a "damage" set like New Moon Acolyte instead of a "sustain" set like Vicious Ophidian. But these kinds of shifts away from other sources of sustain will be available only to people who can weave well.

For the "upper class", yes, it's an outright nerf to power. That can be somewhat compensated for by shifting their builds further away from sustain.

But what does this do for the power gap between the "middle class" and the "upper class". Both groups will be hit hard by this, and it's not clear that they will be affected in a way that reduces the relative power gap.

And so I would like to take a moment now to talk about the Morrowind combat changes. Back when those changes were made, @ZOS_RichLambert said on ESO Live that they had two goals with the Morrowind combat changes. First, they wanted people to think about sustain again. And second, they wanted to reduce the power gap. Well, these changes seem to fly in the face of the notion that sustain should be relevant. But more importantly, the Morrowind combat changes increased the power gap between players. Yes, the sustain nerfs hit the power of the "upper class" hard. But it also hit the "middle class" even more. If you think about it, when resources are tight, then players who are more efficient at resource usage will have an advantage. Instead of using a dynamic rotation, are you using an easy static rotation that results in a couple of DoTs being recast a little early? That's wasted resources. Did you accidentally step into red and thus need to cast a self-heal to compensate for your mistake? That's wasted resources. Did you miss a light attack and thus miss out on its resource-free damage? That's less damage per resource spent.

Can you say, without any doubt, that these light/heavy attack changes will hurt the "upper class" more than it hurts the "middle class"? If not, then you're not actually closing the power gap, and this will be a repeat of the Morrowind fiasco.

But hey there's more to this game than just DPS! What about something like PvE tanking? A lot of tanking is about resource management. Wouldn't it be great if, as a tank, you could get stamina as you light-weave everything? It would trivialize resource management! Hooray! But oh wait, that means you have to drop block to weave every ability instead of block-casting, and if you're a new tank or even an experienced tank who's tanking new unfamiliar content, that's pretty darn risky. So what this means is that experienced tanks can get easy resource management, but beginner tanks who are told, "when in doubt, hold block" can't reap the benefits of this. And of course, if a tank needs an emergency injection of stamina, the old option of getting a burst of about 2.8K stamina from a single 0.8s heavy attack channel is gone. All of this simply punishes less experienced players and dramatically increase the effects of the skill gap.


PART 2: LIGHT/HEAVY ATTACKS SHOULD BE INTUITIVE

You're right: Heavy attacks restoring resources, while light attacks do not, is not intuitive. But... How on earth is the opposite intuitive?! A new player is going to be just as confused about light-attacks restoring resources as they are with the current arrangement on Live.

So what would be intuitive?

Simple: Stop treating light and heavy attacks differently!

Both light and heavy attacks should restore resources. A light attack should restore a very small, token amount (50?). And heavy attacks should restore the same amount as they do now. And medium attacks should restore somewhere between the two, scaled with the duration of the channel.

That's how you make intuitive mechanics. A heavy attack should just be a heavier, stronger light attack. Period. Don't have some silly nonsense where a light attack restores resources, but if a players holds onto the button for just a fraction of a second too long and it turns into a medium attack, then they get nothing. Don't have some silly nonsense where if someone is charging a heavy attack because they are out of resources, but if they let go of that attack just a fraction of a second too soon and it turns into a medium attack, then they get nothing.

Light attacks should do a modest amount of damage and return a small amount of resources. And heavy attacks should do the same, except more: more damage, more resource return. And medium attacks should scale between the two and do a medium amount of damage and return a medium amount of resources. This is the logical, straightfoward thing to do, and it bewilders me that it doesn't work like this.

A heavy attack is slow and requires a channel, so it should be more rewarding in all aspects. How does "hey, you do more damage as a tradeoff for this annoying channel, but oh no, you don't get any resources back" make any sense?


PART 3: WHAT I WOULD DO IF I WAS A COMBAT DESIGNER

1. Reduce light attack damage. Not by 78%. But by something more modest. 30%?
2. Increase the damage on consecutive (non-weaved) light/medium/heavy attacks.
3. All light attacks restore resources. Something small like 50. (So for someone weaving perfectly, this would be a modest 100 regen.)
4. Keep the current Live levels of heavy attack resource return.
5. Medium attack damage and resource return will be somewhere between that of a light attack and heavy attack, scaling with the duration of the channel.
6. Make Empower affect all basic weapon attacks: light/medium/heavy.
7. Edited to add: Increase the damage of spammable abilities by an amount comparable to the reduction to light attack damage. This would maintain the current power level for people who weave successfully (thus effectively shifting damage from the basic attack to the ability), while increasing the power level for those who miss weaves (they would still do less damage, but the gap would be smaller).

If you look at the current lower-APM options--what people hawk as "easy" builds--they're often light-attack-spam (werewolf) or heavy-attack-spam builds. Let's reinforce these options and make them more effective. That's why I propose increasing the damage from consecutive, non-weaved attacks. Of course, these things should not be too effective that they outclass "high-APM" options (we still want a skill gap!), but they should be more effective than they are now (thus lowering the effect of the skill gap). The increase for non-weaved attacks should more than compensate for the 30% nerf to light attack damage that I am proposing.

As for the "middle class" vs. "upper class", an outright nerf to light attack damage (without adding some secondary effect like a ridiculous 400 regen to perfect weavers) will slightly narrow the gap between the two because it will affect those with higher LA/s more than those with lower LA/s.

And finally, on the consistency/intuitiveness front, it makes no sense to apply a resource return to light attacks but not heavy attacks, just as it makes no sense to do the opposite. What makes sense, though, is for a heavy attack to just be a stronger light attack in every way--in both damage and resource return--as compensation for it being a slow channel.

Ultimately, the end result should be...

1. A raising of the bottom floor, in which people who just spam basic attacks are better off than they are on Live. A buff to consecutive, non-weaved damage will help with this (and should more than compensate for the LA damage nerf) and reinforce the current popular low-APM options. ZOS's proposal doesn't help the floor at all, since a severe nerf to LA damage with no compensation simply serves to deprive the "lower class" of combat options and forces them into only using heavy attacks.
2. A narrowing of the gap between the "middle" and "upper" classes. Reducing the damage of weaved light attacks is the key here. In contrast, ZOS's proposal just replaces the lost direct damage with indirect damage in the form of massive sustain.
3. A system where heavy attacks are more desirable, but not so desirable that people who prefer high APM feel compelled into sluggish heavy-attack rotations. While ZOS's current proposal doesn't quite push people into a HA-meta, it does come dangerously close with that insane 78% damage nerf to LAs.
4. Heavy and medium attacks should be rewarded for their cast times, which not only means more damage, but also more resource return. Be consistent.

I was somewhat fine with the proposed changes because, although I weave well enough, I'm somewhat inconsistent where I will sometimes get high ratio and sometimes abysmal ratios (due to a combination of reasons namely lag, stutters and of course l2p) but I have to say that CodeFFFF+1's proposition is much better.

Most of the feedback so far has been based on emotions (both people rejoicing and hating the changes) but, having played at a reasonably high level, I can say just by reading his post that there's a lot of insight in it.

I'm glad the Devs have acknowledged you.

Hanokihs

TheFM wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Every person annoyed by these potential changes because they don't want to take time to relearn the system & use it to their advantage, is exactly the same as a new player who thinks the combat system is tedious and doesn't want to be bothered in the first place. Just saying.

I say go ahead with the changes. Then the guys in PUGs who stand in the back only heavy-attacking can suck a bit less, and all the people clearly capable of maximizing their performance can go remaximize their performance (once their knees stop jerking, anyway).

People standing in the back do not heavy attack, they la spam. Dunno what game you are playing. Those players are still going to get clobbered by mechanics and by good players in pvp. Now instead of having lower damage and high sustain, we are going to have absurd damage, and unlimited sustain, still clobbering new players. xD

Lol the sorc masses with staves do pretty much nothing but heavy attack, even more likely if it's a lightning staff. And apparently people with ice staves have been relying a bit much on heavy attacks too, because people keep running into newbs stealing taunts in dungeons.

PVP won't change because the majority of players hate it anyway. This combat change won't matter there.