PTS Combat Test - Discussion Thread

MusCanus

the concept of using light attacks for damage and heavy attacks for restore is, quite simply, unintuitive

The concept of any attack restoring resources is unintuitive. The intuitive concept would be increasing regen overall and making light attacks just do less damage than heavies.

Alendrin

These changes do not address the problem you stated

Lets review:

--Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS...

Your new system will not change this. From what I have seen, low APM players are either light attack spammers or only spam 1 or 2 skills. The people who spam light attacks in overland content will be ruined. The people who use only a few skills or use them slowly will see no change, or possibly a negative change to sustain if they used to heavy attack (usually with a cannot miss lightning staff) because they are not good at weaving. Now they will have sustain issues because you tied their sustain to the challenging mechanic.

Medium APM players and High APM players see less damage for no other benefit because they can already sustain.

The current light attack system is much superior - right now perfecting weaving gives you that last amount of damage. The new system will offer nothing because people can already sustain, and if you change that then the slightly less skilled players won't be able to sustain a rotation any more which hardly improves the game for them. END RESULT - the challenging mechanic (weaving) should give players something they can live without (extra damage) vs. something they need (sustain, and that is only if you change other parts of the game which I pray you do not)

--we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options.

This is true but the problem is there no way for players to learn the game in the game. I have helped plenty of people and forget light attack weaving, they don't even know what a skill rotation is. How would they learn unless someone teaches them or they decide to watch a video?

--This is particularly evident in veteran content and PvP. Finally, the concept of using light attacks for damage and heavy attacks for restore is, quite simply, unintuitive – especially for less experienced players.

This is true, but the new system is equally unintuitive.

Alendrin

TheFM wrote: »

If these six pages are not enough indication that people DO NOT want this, and the feedback to how it actually effects the game isnt enough within the first day, I dont know what to say. Its obvious the only people that want this is people who refuse to learn basic mechanics. I didnt like ani cancelling, but you could get around it, but weaving, come on, it is so easy it is ridiculous, THERE IS EVEN A LOADING SCREEN EXPLAINING HOW TO WEAVE!

People have already left because the abysmal performance
People have already left because of the block mishap

And then you spring this on us? Do you have any idea how much of a pain in the rear it is to LAND a heavy attack as a magicka player in pvp? Do you have any idea how unreliable light attacks are in this game? You are slowing down combat and making us rely on light attacks for regen...when light attacks hardly ever register. I dont even know at this point.

Every ESO discord I have seen hates these changes.

GeorgeBlack

Now that is trully meaningful combat changes.
Go ahead and do it.

In every other game "normal atks" have some short of FUNCTION instead of extra glitched looking dps.

And ESO has both light and charged atks.

Beautiful.
There are going to be so many new builds.
Maybe the glitched looking combat will look better.

Go ahead zos. This is beautiful.
I hope that SOMEHOW it will affect performance for the better as well.

stevenyaub16_ESO

There's a lot of problems with these changes

1. Damage nerf across the board, 15-20% for magicka, 10% for stamina.

2. It doesn't change the need to weave at all. Stam classes require to light attack to proc relequen, stam sorcerors and nightblades require light attacks to proc their abilities. Not to mention for procing monster helms and other proc sets.

3. There will still be the same % gap between top speed weavers and slower ones.

4. Bash weaving will now be utilitised to maximise damage. Increasing the ceiling even further.

The only benefit I see from these changes is that is more forgiving if you miss occasional light attacks.

Runefang

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Now that is trully meaningful combat changes.
Go ahead and do it.

In every other game "normal atks" have some short of FUNCTION instead of extra glitched looking dps.

And ESO has both light and charged atks.

Beautiful.
There are going to be so many new builds.
Maybe the glitched looking combat will look better.

Go ahead zos. This is beautiful.
I hope that SOMEHOW it will affect performance for the better as well.

Weaving (or "glitched looking dps" as you call it) is not going away with this change!

Now what will happen is we hold down the left mouse button for longer and then hit our skill button, cancelling the end of the heavy attack animation while still doing a full heavy.

Madhatten512

Mudguard wrote: »

I think the combat in ESO is really a weak point. I personally find it very "spammy" with the light attack weaving and cancelling. I always remember reading a description of ESO combat that likened it to your character having some kind of fit.

I think I wouldn't mind if they just added in some kind of auto-attack like in WOW.

This isn't wow if you want turn based combat go play that game. This is action based combat, and that's why the majority of us are here.

Anhedonie

Make skills cost 0, let heavy and light attacks become cosmetic effects, and when you use any skill your bar gets locked till the animation is over. This should bring everyone to the same level.

igormaxbr03

Wow some changes to light attack and heavy that is the last thing that we need now ,Zos want broke this ,because block now because "is just works" , i dont know how many times i got kill in pvp because my block dont ,work swap bar takes forever now ,i got cc and i cant cc break especial when get dyzzing swing ,char only got on my death recap dyzzing swing many times i can be block and sprint also must of the times too my char will block forever is like wierd i can spring while block anymation lol plus we cant sprint then block 2 things got better on xbox game got smaller 69 load are realy better i think got some fps max 5 fps in some content but need more work
Zos fix your game perfomarce first them think about nerf classes ,make some bad changes to broken the game even more ,list more the feedback we get her just dont ignore, the focus should be on veteran players who is still play this games for year then stop focus on new player ,me still here play this game since december of 2015, there were many times i want quit this game but i still here last stop for few days was in 2018 to play red dead redemption 2 ,but i dont know how much reasons to stay here , if nothing get better time to move on for another game,a important thing on near feature when server got better perfomace too , add crossplay with ps 4 that should make the game better and alive if possible bring addons to console when xbox series x ,ps 5 come then bring pc player to

LeHarrt91

Anhedonie wrote: »

Make skills cost 0, let heavy and light attacks become cosmetic effects, and when you use any skill your bar gets locked till the animation is over. This should bring everyone to the same level.

This it literally what they dont want. It was said in the Patch Notes and it the key to ESO's fast combat.

If you want that go play WoW.

Stevie6

I read the new patch notes and

1. The changes to heavy attack are going in the right direction.
2. Sustain needs to be changed. LA get smallest return while HA gets largest resource return. No stacks. Just sustain on each hit. Keep it simple.
3. LA damaged needs to be reduced but not to 78%. Probably more like 50%.
4. WW is pretty much DOA just like Iceheart. WW needs to be redone at this point. It’s all messed up.

Mudguard

Madhatten512 wrote: »

Mudguard wrote: »

I think the combat in ESO is really a weak point. I personally find it very "spammy" with the light attack weaving and cancelling. I always remember reading a description of ESO combat that likened it to your character having some kind of fit.

I think I wouldn't mind if they just added in some kind of auto-attack like in WOW.

This isn't wow if you want turn based combat go play that game. This is action based combat, and that's why the majority of us are here.

Actually, I did take a break from this game for a year and played classic Wow for some of that time.

And, my counter is that this game has a lot of strengths, but it has never been a good action-based combat game.

I think they are proposing these changes to help fix the performance problems, and if we get better performance that'll be worth it to lose the light attack/animation cancel stuff which makes the combat feel bad anyway.

StShoot

TheFM wrote: »

If these six pages are not enough indication that people DO NOT want this, and the feedback to how it actually effects the game isnt enough within the first day, I dont know what to say. Its obvious the only people that want this is people who refuse to learn basic mechanics. I didnt like ani cancelling, but you could get around it, but weaving, come on, it is so easy it is ridiculous, THERE IS EVEN A LOADING SCREEN EXPLAINING HOW TO WEAVE!

People have already left because the abysmal performance
People have already left because of the block mishap

And then you spring this on us? Do you have any idea how much of a pain in the rear it is to LAND a heavy attack as a magicka player in pvp? Do you have any idea how unreliable light attacks are in this game? You are slowing down combat and making us rely on light attacks for regen...when light attacks hardly ever register. I dont even know at this point.

But this wont even help the players who refuse to learn the game, infact these changes will make it harder for them:

Now, the dd have to la weave in order to get the best outcome, but while tanks healer and pvp player should use LA weave for the best outcome, it is still possible for them to play the game without it, if one of those three run out of resources they do a heavy for sustain and keep going.

So after the patch goes live HA ressource return will be gone how will it affect the roles ?

DD: Still needs to weave LAs because its the most dps and helps sustain (replacing false god, or reg food) etc

Tank: Well the good tanks i know curently manage their ressources without HAs, but the unexpirienced tanks use it to gain ressources back, after this patch that option is gone, in order to get their ressources back they have to LA weave now and thats a pain in the ass on a tank

Healers: pretty mutch the same as for tanks instead of doing one HA here, they will have to LA weave in order to sustain.

PvP: You will have to LA weave for the sustain and thats nearly impossible because of the lag. As long as Zos dont gives oneshot HAs to the "low apm players", they will keep dieing.

Zos managed to do the one thing that hurts every single player.
Their changes are way to complicated. The easiest way to fix the over performing LAs would have been to reduce their dmg SLIGHTLY and buff some skills, so the classes wont suffer dps losses

xaraan

One major thing I'm seeing in people testing this is it looks like it makes resource management unnecessary. Which makes any race that gets resource management buffs worthless. Also will make sets that help with resources like false gods, worm cult, hircine, useless or support running stuff like ele drain worthless.

So the resource return part of the change is definitely broken.

mague

The damage loss on LA is slightly to much, just as the sustain seems to much. Idea sounds good but there should more finetuning on balance.
Overland will be more fun. PvP heal will see a huge nerf in sustain.
It is nice that damage scales from bigger resource
Regen should be a mix. It should be like 80% mag/20% stam on staff and 80% stam/20% mag on weapons

tymojamson

Overall, I didn't like the latest changes with combat, tho I really enjoyed the ability to restore resources with LA.
My opinion is, we need a mix of two.
We need the ability to regain resources with LA, but we don't need to devalue the damage of the light attacks.
I think it would be pretty balanced if we had an opportunity to restore the normal amount of resources after dealing 3 consecutive light attacks. 3 consecutive LA should be equal as the 1 heavy attack right now. Heavy attacks should restore resources as well, but only when you hit an off-balance opponent.

Also, I would like to point out that those latest changes ruin gameplay for hybrid users, for example, Magicka chars with stamina weapons. It is even harder for them to deal damage, and restoring resources is not that important for them. I was able to deal enough damage while having my Enpower buff on my templar, but now it's almost useless.
That is why I also think that ZOS need to reconsider the Enpower buff. Perhaps, Enpower should consider Light Attacks as Heavy Attacks, with equal stats and mechanics.

And last but not least, light attacks now don't deal damage anymore. Well, I felt that 78% decrease. I think, that you need to reduce this number up to 30-40% tops.
Anyway, will be waiting for more changes!

Starlock

Some thoughts from a console player who doesn't have access to PTS.

The team is spot on when they note how the concept of using light attacks for damage and heavy attacks for restore is not intuitive. Or rather, it's something I strongly agree with and have felt is the case for a very long time. Heavy attacks look like they require more effort on the part of our characters, yet they restore resources. Light attacks look like they would be 'quick breather' attacks and yet they don't restore resources. It's just weird, and has always been weird. But as the team is well aware, changing how light/heavy attacks function is a significant change that will really alter how the game plays for many people.

Overall, I think the proposed changes sound very exciting. This thing here I saw that looked particularly awesome:

Light/Medium/Heavy attacks scaling with highest offensive stat. This is, put simply, huge for hybrid characters or any character who uses the "wrong" weapon type for their stat allocation. One of my characters is stated as a magicka DK but uses stamina weapons. That's a challenge for many reasons, one of which is the utterly pathetic LA/MA/HA damage. This by itself would fix that issue for him and any other character I have who uses the "wrong" weapon types. Granted, the issue of being unable to restore your main resource with your weapon is retained, unfortunately, but hey, this is still a huge plus.

The only criticisms I might have delve into number crunching that I neither particularly care about or have the capacity to test myself, so I will leave that to others.

FrancisCrawford

Some quick thoughts:

• Weaving will still be important, just now for sustain rather than damage. So what's the point of all this?
• Where does this leave Maelstrom destro staffs?

FrancisCrawford

mpicklesster wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

mpicklesster wrote: »

Also--what about skills and classes that depend heavily on light attack damage? Like Elemental Weapon and Night Blades, respectively. I saw no mention of either in the patch notes.

We should probably argue objectively regardless how we feel about the change. I don't see how anything about this change specifically affects NB or Elemental Weapon. The incentive to weave a LA every skill and get your Grim Focus stacks is still there. 200 stam/mag every second is nothing to scoff at. For the same reason nothing changes for Elemental Weapon and its damage is completely unrelated to LA damage itself.

1) I agree that the LA changes won't change the motivation to weave for NBs. Grim Focus is too large of a chunk of their DPS. The LA nerf, however, will disproportionately affect their DPS because LAs make up a larger portion of their DPS than it does on other classes. (Except for maybe magplars?).
I wish ZOS had buffed NB's spammable to compensate for the inevitable DPS loss to LAs.

2) I understand that Ele Weapon adds a flat value, so its DPS in isolation won't change. However, with the substantial nerf to LA damage, it seems like there's little incentive to run Ele Weapon any more. Wouldn't another spammable be more powerful? So my qualm is essentially that Ele Weapon could likely become a dead skill. Which is a real shame for those of us that took the time to learn how to properly weave it.

• Leeching/Siphoning also means that NBs will still have to weave.
• Critical Surge means that many sorcs will still want to weave.
• Lotus means that many wardens (especially more casual ones) will still want to weave.
• Briarheart and Burning Spellweave wearers will still want to weave, and I'm sure that goes for many other sets as well.
• And that's even before we consider the sustain benefits of weaving, which will ensure that everybody still wants to weave.

phoenixkungfu

Ok first I want to say good job to eso. The changes are amazing. The gameplay should be the way from day 1.

Fruity_Ninja

Light attack damage is way too low now...

And ZOS has always claimed "play how you want". What about if we enjoy playing fast paced combat, with high actions per minute? That's my preferred playstyle... Does that mean I can't actually play how I want, because you're now making it a less effective playstyle?

Also, cast your memories back to Morrowind sustain changes, where heavy attacks became a big part of combat (out of necessity because sustain was absolutely gutted). Do you remember the huge amounts of complaints about the slow paced combat that nobody enjoyed? Well you're heading down the same path...again.

And why the big huge swings and changes? Haven't we learned that smaller incremental changes are better and break less things!

I love this game. Please reconsider these changes, and listen to our feedback.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Quaffio

So I'm going to have to add my view to this as there might not be many people with the issue I run into with light attack weaving that are going to come to this forum to state their opinion.

Forcing light attack weaving to regen resources in order to maintain any kind of sustained damage output will only serve to punish those people that play this game that do not have the dexterity in their hands to handle light attack weaving.

People who suffer from arthritis, nerve damage and any other complications that make precise finger movements difficult in order to light attack weave have spent years learning how to min max their builds in order to put out the best amount of dps they can without having to light attack weave. These same kind of people who tank and heal can not sit there and be expected to light attack weave between their abilities to sustain resources as well.

This change is just a horrible idea entirely. There is nothing wrong with how light attacks and heavy attacks operate to warrant any kind of change. There are plenty of other problems with this game that need immediate addressing that are clearly broken and you can just go look in these forums to see what I mean.

The dexterous players have built their characters around light attack weaving cause they can. The people with less dexterity have built their characters around heavy attacks. The system works perfectly fine for both types of players.

JusticeSouldier

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert
Heavy attacks restoring of resourses is intuitive thing for eso.
Light attacks damage-garnish function is also intuitive thing for eso.
U created in the past beautiful system. It's an uniq and interesting part of it.
And u need to understand that such change can drastically ruin exactly PvP combat feeling.

PvE is secondary envinronment for combat mechanics because PvE in eso is fight vs dumb frosen mechanics without any AI.
Every step is programmed. Every trial, dungeon etc is always the same set of actions, again and again.
It's like series of customized target skeletons...

PvP in eso is real high end content.
Huge part of comunity never grow up to it with different reasons and that's their choice.
They or don't play pvp at all or playing it inside huge zergball groups only without any learning or creating process.
Just for feeling of teamwork or idk friendly interaction.
I'm not a judge, they like what they like.
But they are not active high end core of eso.

U need to think about PvP first.
Think about that. Please.

pma_pacifier

Proposing ideas, solutions and feedbacks with all that theory crafting is wrong here IMHO. I like that passion. But we are all playing into the false premise from ZOS that LA and HA NEEDs to be changed, critically.

The IRONY? Assuming it was an issue and a major one with the context of what they stated. Assuming it needs to be changed for their stated reasons whether justified or not. Their suggested solutions does not even tackle the problem at all. At worse, create more issues and does the opposite.

notvenousdrake

I’m afraid you posted this about 7 or so days to early 🙁

Dracane

I wish to inform them how inexperienced and new players (pugs) ACTUALLY play.
They do not spam heavy attacks, they spam light attacks. With these changes you will drive away every single high end pver and remove what little dps new players had in dungeons.

Your statistics certainly show you how many people spam bow light attacks in dungeons to do their damage. Right now this results in a decent enough amount of damage and it is easy for those people. Charging heavy attacks instead is boring, stupid and not rewarding.

Nobody likes heavy attacks even now. People rather use spell symmetry to restore ressources and a mere 12% damage increase to some weapons changes nothing. If you wish to change something, feel free to just buff heavy attacks to make everything viable. There is really no need for any of these changes.

[Edit to remove bashing]

Kinnahz

I am not in a position to jump onto the PTS in order to test these potential changes out.

I will say however, it's these constant drastic changes to game play that pushed me to take a few extended breaks. I have just returned to the game after being away since Wolfhunter/Murkmmire.

Currently, i am enjoying the game once again. But seeing these proposed changes leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I understand you say these will not make the live server necessarily in this form but an iteration bearing the same direction will and it irks me.

When i've watched livestreams of even the devs playing its like they are the casuals that they are catering for... we need VET endgame players making the changes to the Combat Systems... I get there is something for everyone in this game but, the combat does not need to be flip floped around like this to 'raise the floor, lower the ceiling'


EDIT:
If Sustain is the end goal here, why don't you revert the CP changes you made in Morrowind?

cguiao

I think the changes are good, specially agree with this: "Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options. This is particularly evident in veteran content and PvP. Finally, the concept of using light attacks for damage and heavy attacks for restore is, quite simply, unintuitive – especially for less experienced players."
And i also would like to suggest to make jumps cost, even a little stamina, so we don´t get bunny hoppers too, and make the combat even more realistic.
ps: i'm being serious, at least make constant jumping stop the stamina recovery, bunny hopers are such an imersion break.

Faulgor

1. I like that under-performing heavy attack rotations are finally addressed. While I'm perfectly capable to perform light attack rotations, I don't want to be pressured into them any more than HA-haters want to be forced into HA rotations. Variety and choice should be key here.
2. Likewise, it's great that medium attacks are considered in this new spectrum.
3. I'm happy beyond reason that ZOS finally acknowledges it never made sense for HAs to return resources. This used to be a unique effect for Restoration staffs due to their ... restoring and magical nature.
4. Light attacks have occupied a disproportionate amount of our DPS for a long time, so a readjustment is very welcome.

Now, these are big changes, and there are also quite a few concerns...

1. A 78% decrease on LA damage seems excessive. This is a massive DPS loss even for inexperienced players who were either mainly spamming light attacks or just getting the hang of weaving. I'm unsure this can be compensated with HA rotations, but will need to test. Coupled with DPS nerfs over the last year, many players will see their performance regress for the second year in a row, which is terrible.
2. 200+ resource return per second seems excessive, too. Light attack rotations in end-game settings like Trials do not have massive sustain issues right now. It's not like there is much room to forego sustain bonuses for more damage bonuses to offset these changes: Everyone is already maxing out damage bonuses!
3. This will also mean already overperforming races with damage bonuses (Orc) will be even more desirable over sustain races like Redguard and Bosmer.

I don't think I covered everything that came to mind, but in summary I'd first adjust light and heavy attack damage in the direction suggested in the patch notes, but mainly by buffing HAs instead of nerfing LAs. Furthermore, I'm unconvinced that any basic attack should return resources - if anything it should be ultimate (remember dynamic ulti gen? I do), which is already partially the case and could be expanded upon.
If resource gain remained on light attacks, I think even half as much (100 per hit) would be generous, and heavy attacks should return a small amount of ultimate while dealing about the same amount of DPS (get rid of the 10% higher DPS bar for HA rotations). This would better fit the concept of LA rotations as continuous fast-paced onslaughts versus slower, heavy-hitting knock-out HA rotations.

These are just my immediate thoughts, but I'm looking forward to test this on the PTS once I finish patching.

Thevampirenight

SosRuvaak wrote: »

snoozy wrote: »

so you killed werewolves entirely huh

and just now that i had farmed molag kena

they HATE

let me say that again...

they H A T E werewolves.

check the werewolf feedback thread, count how many replies since the last patch that people have complained its lacking healing or is too focused on DoT. zenimax doesnt care, they make the face of their DLC a wolf and tarnish the werewolf class more and more.

this game is becoming more and more a shadow of what zenimax used to be good at.


and idk what this molag kena change is for, its absolutely redundant and truly out of the blue.

who wants less damage and more resources... thats SOO backwards..... you use LESS resources the more damage your abilities do. If the enemy is dead, you dont have to use as many resources plain and simple. more damage, takes out more HP. of course theres a blance, but what is this change to molag kena going to do but make people stop using the set.

theres soo much evidence that zenimax doesnt know their own game.
i dont believe they play the game the same as everyone, they have their streams... but they cant even think the same as a regular player. its impossible. i experienced this as a server owner for minecraft, i couldn't experience the server the same as a player. thats why theres beta testing phases.
they truly dont understand their player base, these changes are just further proof.
soo unprofessional, i wouldn't hire any of zenimax employees under my company.

Maybe they are team Vampire and prefer vampires. Even in the single player elder scrolls games four of them added vampires as a playable option and only three added werewolves.