PTS Combat Test - Discussion Thread

ZOS_GinaBruno

This is the official discussion thread for the Light and Heavy attack changes currently on the PTS. If you’d like to discuss these changes with other players, this is the place to do it! If you’ve tested these changes on the PTS and would like to provide feedback, please do so in-game via /feedback or use this forum thread.

Royaji

Time to dust off your heavy attack petsorcs, boys.

Sandman929

Pretty exciting changes actually. Not really because of what they are, but because they are dramatic.

Gnortranermara

As a console player, I can only PTS at my friend's house. I won't be able to provide feedback on the implementation for a few days, but the direction and the idea here is awesome, and long overdue.

It makes intuitive sense that light attacks should damage less, and heavies should damage more. (Finally!) This will make the game's behind-the-scenes mechanics more accessible for players to jump in and make intuitive sense of the combat system without resorting to online guides.

LA resource return is awesome (but completely removing it from heavies seems like an overstep). The new sustain boost from LA's allows for reallocating other aspects of a build (glyphs, sets, races, sustain skills) to boost damage from SKILLS instead of LA's. This is good.

If this is the beginning of a larger "make combat sensible" plan, it's a perfect first step. (Second step, I suppose, if you count cost:damage standardization - but that still hasn't been implemented properly. Fix the outliers!)

mpicklesster

With such a large nerf to light attack damage (78%!), I'm glad that you made sure to buff vMA destro staves in another way to compensate--given that their sole function was to buff light (and heavy attack) damage.

<Checks patch notes>

Wait...why was there no mention of vMA destro staves?...in a PTS about light attack nerfing and rebalancing?

Also--what about skills and classes that depend heavily on light attack damage? Like Elemental Weapon and Night Blades, respectively. I saw no mention of either in the patch notes.

martinhpb16_ESO

mpicklesster wrote: »

Also--what about skills and classes that depend heavily on light attack damage? Like Elemental Weapon and Night Blades, respectively. I saw no mention of either in the patch notes.

Don't expect any compensation for NBs its just nerf whatever they have

Varana

IF heavy attacks become more powerful, all staves should behave the same. Either all of them as channels, or none of them.
There is no inherent reason why they behave differently, and while it could be mostly ignored when heavy attacks aren't used widely, the channel is a huge advantage of lightning over the other destro ones. Especially in how the attack "feels", so to speak.

Royaji

mpicklesster wrote: »

Also--what about skills and classes that depend heavily on light attack damage? Like Elemental Weapon and Night Blades, respectively. I saw no mention of either in the patch notes.

We should probably argue objectively regardless how we feel about the change. I don't see how anything about this change specifically affects NB or Elemental Weapon. The incentive to weave a LA every skill and get your Grim Focus stacks is still there. 200 stam/mag every second is nothing to scoff at. For the same reason nothing changes for Elemental Weapon and its damage is completely unrelated to LA damage itself.

mav1234

Interesting change. I don't mind it. I was never in love with weaving. Will need to test more to see how it feels.

KurtAngle2

This feels like a joke

Gnortranermara

mpicklesster wrote: »

Wait...why was there no mention of vMA destro staves?...in a PTS about light attack nerfing and rebalancing?

The vMA staff gives a flat, fixed bonus to both LA's and HA's. Not a percentage, so there is literally no need to adjust it. It should work with similar effectiveness before and after these changes. Ele Weapon, same. The bonus damage it gives is flat, not a percentage of the LA. Should remain just as effective. I'm not up to date with current mechanics on NB/Grim Focus, so not sure about that one.

Solar Barrage, however, is a skill that really is disproportionately affected due to the change to Empower. This one needs a look.

mpicklesster

On a serious note, one alternative solution to the light attack nerfs would be to simply buff heavy attack builds to be as strong as light attack builds. That way, people with different preferences and/or motor skill restrictions can achieve the same DPS. It would also help ZOS more completely live up to their "play any way you want" mantra.

I see this solution as a win-win...win. 1) People who invested a lot of time perfecting light attack rotations don't have their efforts wasted 2) People who play heavy attack rotations because of physical limitations or limited practice time can still be competitive DPSs and 3) ZOS gets to add one more item to their list of reasons as to why their game lets you play how you want.

I personally like playing a light attack rotation because I enjoy the pace. To me, heavy attack rotations just feel slow and tedious. (I for one do NOT miss the heavy attack meta we had a while back. Remember when Sunderflame was the stamina meta?).

Imagine...if...I...wrote...this...whole...post...with...ellipses...between...every...word. That's...what...heavy...attack...rotations...feel...like...IMO.

However, I also recognize that some people might not have the time to learn a light attack rotation--or they might have a physical disability that prevents them from learning one. I don't think it's right that a physical disability could directly or indirectly bar someone from video game achievements. I know I'd feel awful if I couldn't enter a vet trial because my DPS was too low only because of a physical disability that prevented me from light attack weaving. I think buffing heavy attack builds--to match light attack builds--would help solve problems like this without completely upending the current meta.

Odysseus87

Ya know.... I love this game. I love the combat. I love the PVP. Like you have said, it is set apart from other games because of its unique combat, and how it allows for a higher skill ceiling. Hell, this game inspired me to become a content creator. But that skill ceiling has been lowered over time, and yet I have stayed since your open beta, despite constant skill changes, because the core mechanics have mostly stayed the same.

This change. This change will finally kill that skill ceiling, and will totally destroy those core mechanics that have kept me coming back. You are finally killing the one thing that has kept so many people in this game. Despite your near constant skill changes, decreased performance, and total lack of support to the pvp community, so many have stayed for the unique combat this game has to offer. You will have finally succeeded putting us out of our misery when you go through with this.

Because ultimately, you will. No matter our feedback, you will go through with this change. You’ve shown time and again that you’ll do what you damn well please despite the community giving you your “feedback” Well done, and goodbye.

xshatox

People laugh at xynode easy sorc build, now it will be king.

Also with elemental weapon + light attack people probably can sustain forever.

Screamo

So why are people flaming before testing again … or am i miss understanding the text. "High APM play is still rewarded as the absolute highest DPS and requires a mix of both Light and Heavy attacks."
All i'm getting out of this is that rotations will get more complex and not all this one fits all. So the gameplay should actually get more dynamic and faster as you have to react to stuff and not just play the same rotation over and over again.

PS: sry for my english ^^

oXI_Viper_IXo

What are you guys thinking? Smh this will be the nail in the coffin for me if this ever goes live.

majulook

The PTS Patch notes say this: Unarmed Heavy Attacks now deal approximately 24% more damage.

What is a Unarmed Heavy Attack?

Olauron

I like what I am reading in the patch notes. Needs a bit testing but overall seems good.

Schattenfluegel

majulook wrote: »

The PTS Patch notes say this: Unarmed Heavy Attacks now deal approximately 24% more damage.

What is a Unarmed Heavy Attack?

A Fist Heavy Hit....its still funny to play without weapon, and it can proc Bound Arnaments Stacks too...

DUTCH_REAPER

I am excited to Redownload the PTS and try these changes out and then give feedback. Thank you ZOS for your work and outside the box thinking.

majulook

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

The PTS Patch notes say this: Unarmed Heavy Attacks now deal approximately 24% more damage.

What is a Unarmed Heavy Attack?

A Fist Heavy Hit....its still funny to play without weapon, and it can proc Bound Arnaments Stacks too...

LOL Did not even know that was in the game, and been playing since beta.

Schattenfluegel

majulook wrote: »

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

The PTS Patch notes say this: Unarmed Heavy Attacks now deal approximately 24% more damage.

What is a Unarmed Heavy Attack?

A Fist Heavy Hit....its still funny to play without weapon, and it can proc Bound Arnaments Stacks too...

LOL Did not even know that was in the game, and been playing since beta.

I trolled with this in a learning raid a few weeks ago. Unarmed Fight is dealing direct dmg, it should be possible to proc some sets. But ive never testet it more...

I believe i was on 5-8k in combination with arnaments on it...not sure. But it counts as a normal LA or HA, without the weaponstats.

JadonSky

So is the goal to also buff all weapon/class skills damage as well to match the removal of weaving light attacks and keep the fast pace combat. I remember when it was originally HA did more then LA which it was reverted to LA do more damage then HA because the combat felt so slow and lame. I feel like we are just going backwards unless you buff all the skill damage to match the remove of LA damage.

jescerwin

If heavy attacks are supposed to do more damage, why was the trifocus passive nerfed so hard for lightning staves? Heavy attacks, even with a 10% increase in damage, will do significantly less damage to multiple enemies than it is on live. Really disappointed with these changes. Not sure why anyone there thought it was even appropriate to prioritize a dramatic change to combat when the number of bugs has made the game practically unplayable, literally playable for the numerous people who can't even log in because of crashes.

mpicklesster

Royaji wrote: »

mpicklesster wrote: »

Also--what about skills and classes that depend heavily on light attack damage? Like Elemental Weapon and Night Blades, respectively. I saw no mention of either in the patch notes.

We should probably argue objectively regardless how we feel about the change. I don't see how anything about this change specifically affects NB or Elemental Weapon. The incentive to weave a LA every skill and get your Grim Focus stacks is still there. 200 stam/mag every second is nothing to scoff at. For the same reason nothing changes for Elemental Weapon and its damage is completely unrelated to LA damage itself.

1) I agree that the LA changes won't change the motivation to weave for NBs. Grim Focus is too large of a chunk of their DPS. The LA nerf, however, will disproportionately affect their DPS because LAs make up a larger portion of their DPS than it does on other classes. (Except for maybe magplars?).
I wish ZOS had buffed NB's spammable to compensate for the inevitable DPS loss to LAs.

2) I understand that Ele Weapon adds a flat value, so its DPS in isolation won't change. However, with the substantial nerf to LA damage, it seems like there's little incentive to run Ele Weapon any more. Wouldn't another spammable be more powerful? So my qualm is essentially that Ele Weapon could likely become a dead skill. Which is a real shame for those of us that took the time to learn how to properly weave it.

Vevvev

majulook wrote: »

LOL Did not even know that was in the game, and been playing since beta.

Sometimes its fun to beat people in PVP by putting away your weapons, changing your skills, and trying to beat them with your fists. The light attacks still proc things like Kjalnar's Nightmare and a few other skills, which can make it very fun. The issue is you lose some weapon/spell damage, the enchantment, and obviously any weapon skills. Should try it sometime just for fun!

As for these changes I don't know what to really think until I've tested them. For all we know it might make the combat faster since light attacks restore resources so you're no longer having these pauses in long matches where both people heavy attack for resources before slugging it out again.

FirmamentOfStars

Ok lets first state, that our game is awesome and unique, because its fast paced and people love it like that. Then lets nerf the fast paced combat and make it slow, because people love fast pace....does this make any sense.

Ok a bit more in detail:

ESO is amazing and loved as a fast paced combat game, it feels like you really can achieve something to learn this fast pace. It is rewarding a lot to get used to light attack weaving, it is skillful to do so. On the other hand heavy attacks are slow and boring. Many people left back in the heavy attack meta, because it was boring to tuck down your left mouse button. It is not skillful to press one button down all the time and try to get one skill out right after the heavy attack finishes (because you automatically queue the skill right after and you dont have to time it). Basically players, who spent time learning and improving, get nerfed, meanwhile the boring mechanic, who pretty much everybody can learn very easely gets buffed. This discourages people to learn your game, it discourages old and new players, because either they get punished for being good or they have nothing to strive for after learning an easy game play.

In addition, light attacks restoring resources is not necessary: sustain is fine, good players can sustain in PvE without heavy attacks, because they know how to do it. If you want to see heavy attacks a bit more used, just reduce its channel time a bit and you would improve the game quite a bit.

Please leave heavy attacks and light attacks as they are for the sake of your game. Nobody wants a slow game, nobody wants their effort crushed, nobody wants easy game to be effective, because you lose the reason to improve.

DPS on the trial dummies at the moment peak around 95k dps and 13-17k of it is damage from light attacks. The nerf will make that go to 3-6k dps. This would be a joke for everybody, who actually put time into the game to learn it. It is just a big "*** you" to the people caring most for the game, loving the game the most. If you want to raise the floor, then please buff heavy attacks slightly and do a decent job at teaching the new players the game, so they dont get smashed in PvP and never try it again, so they dont get kicked from groups because their dps is low or they die all the time.

And please, before you do any big chances to the game, improve performance in PvP and fix your game.

Maxx7410

No hell no!!!!

danthemann5

I think it's fairly safe to assume these changes will go live exactly as they are written. Typically, when ZOS puts something out there to get "feedback", they've already made up their minds.

Her's my feedback for ZOS to ignore:

It makes sense for heavy attacks to do more damage from a risk versus reward standpoint. However, changing a core mechanic so drastically throws the entire game off balance. Why not leave light attacks alone and implement a sliding scale for heavy attack damage and resource restore based on charge time?

Not that it matters since the game is broken beyond repair anyway.

Dogzey

This seems an attempt to dodge dealing with the issue that cp has brought. This is the only mmo where I like the combat and how practice gets rewarded, it’s just going to turn into pressing keys without light attacking and still hitting close to somebody who is actually good at the game. Terrible move

Kadoozy

Please stop these radical combat changes ZOS. It has gotten so old and lots of people have been driven away by it, and I am starting to see why. Nobody wants unpredictable changes. We want stability and balance.

I really dont understand why every year there is some sort of attempt to completely overhaul gameplay.