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A vast majority of players are asking to remove cast times

  • idk
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    .
    Edited by idk on January 22, 2020 11:43PM
  • Artorias24
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    Vast majority = "Someone said it in zone chat and I decided it made sense."

    Essentially what I'm hearing is:
    "I'm not very good at something, so instead of learning and practicing like everyone else, I'm going to go hit up the forums and flap my yapper, so everyone will know that I refuse to learn. CHANGE THE WHOLE WORLD TO FIT ME OR YOU'RE JUST IN IT FOR THE MONEY!"

    By this ZOS can also change ESO into my little pony world and you will also say "adapt and learn".

    As already stated most of the Feedback in Forum is negative about this feature and the Forum is here for players to discuss and give Feedback to the devs. And from what we can tell is that ZOS is just ignoring this feedback and some white Knights like you defending this stupid change that no one asked for.
  • Kalante
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    As a solo stamina nb player cast times was one of the worst things to happen to open world game play.
  • SnikerPKK
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    Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.

    We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/488917/cast-times-on-ultimates ... "are simply horrible" - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484409/cast-times-on-ultimates-should-not-go-live - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484920/cast-timed-ultimates-discussion - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492754/cast-time-utimates-need-to-go - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484238/cast-time-on-ultimates-feels-awful - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/500055/cast-times-so-when-are-they-bieng-removed-from-ultimates - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491990/remove-ultimate-cast-times-for-men-taller-than-173-centimeters - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/436792/cast-time-to-all-shields-not-just-specific-shields - neutral, asking for consistency.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/495644/cast-time-on-ultimates-worries-about-the-future-of-eso - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484572/cast-time-for-ultimates - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/501925/cast-time-on-ults - negative

    Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.

    Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"

    No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.

    I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."

    When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!

    THIS
  • nosecookie
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    Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.

    We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/488917/cast-times-on-ultimates ... "are simply horrible" - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484409/cast-times-on-ultimates-should-not-go-live - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484920/cast-timed-ultimates-discussion - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492754/cast-time-utimates-need-to-go - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484238/cast-time-on-ultimates-feels-awful - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/500055/cast-times-so-when-are-they-bieng-removed-from-ultimates - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491990/remove-ultimate-cast-times-for-men-taller-than-173-centimeters - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/436792/cast-time-to-all-shields-not-just-specific-shields - neutral, asking for consistency.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/495644/cast-time-on-ultimates-worries-about-the-future-of-eso - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484572/cast-time-for-ultimates - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/501925/cast-time-on-ults - negative

    Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.

    Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"

    No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.

    I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."

    When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!

    Alpha chad hitting with the truth bomb. Devs have no idea about their own game. 'Bout time they start listening to you guys.
  • MashmalloMan
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    Honestly, I main Stam Sorc in PvP with the 2H ult I have next to no problems with the cast time. I don't like bashing after abilities anyway and that's what the cast time really prevents here. I simply don't block/roll dodge after I cast the ultimate. It's only 0.4s.

    The crappy feeling is getting it canceled, but isn't that the entire point of the cast time? Counterplay..

    Idk, I'll take it either way, but with the 70-90 ping and stable frame rate I get, it hasn't bothered me too much yet. Perhaps this is why I don't notice a huge problem where others do.

    As a quick comparison, I play a lot of Battlerite which is a top down arena based fighting game with abilities, cooldowns and ultimates. There is no cc immunity whatsoever. Many abilities cast in 0.3 - 1s cast time animations that can be canceled by yourself (there is a button for it) or other players easily (many counters and stuns). The game feels extremely fun to play and I never feel cheated or clunky for losing an ability that has a cast time. Half the engagement is knowing when to use abilities so they don't get canceled by your enemy. I treat ESO the same way.

    Stun enemy first, then ultimate.. idk, 0.4s isn't huge to me. Don't kill me lol.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on January 22, 2020 10:17PM
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • MashmalloMan
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    @Joy_Division wow. Great comment. It must of been so frustrating for you and other reps to place so much time and dedication in to funneling community feedback to the devs just to hear them ask why sorcs didn't use dark exchange/deal in PvE. Lmao, what space first of all? If your a Stam Sorc you need bound armaments on both bars. If your a Mag Sorc pets are the strongest route and take up 2 slots, even non pet sorcs don't have room or a purpose to use their class execute.

    I have nothing but respect and admiration for you and the unpaid class reps that put in so much effort to go unheard. The reps in the beginning that held discussion after discussion on the forums only to leave the program later most likely because they felt it was a waste of time.

    Reading the old class rep meetings gave me so much hope. ZOS was 100% aware Stam Sorcs wanted their own class based ult, going as far to mention Air Atro in the notes yet here we are with a new set (Aegis Caller) that does pretty much what we were asking for!

    I'm currently in college for game development and I know for a fact that it isn't as difficult as it may seem to make some of these class identity changes that we've seemingly had to wait over 1-2 years for. I've given them a free pass because I believe fixing the game code and performance of the game along with standardizing abilities meant we may finally get spellcrafting and achieve a logical sense of balance.. yet I'm still waiting and the next chapter feels like more fluff to me.

    Anyway. Thanks for your work. You guys are awesome.
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    @Joy_Division wow. Great comment. It must of been so frustrating for you and other reps to place so much time and dedication in to funneling community feedback to the devs just to hear them ask why sorcs didn't use dark exchange/deal in PvE. Lmao, what space first of all? If your a Stam Sorc you need bound armaments on both bars. If your a Mag Sorc pets are the strongest route and take up 2 slots, even non pet sorcs don't have room or a purpose to use their class execute.

    I have nothing but respect and admiration for you and the unpaid class reps that put in so much effort to go unheard. The reps in the beginning that held discussion after discussion on the forums only to leave the program later most likely because they felt it was a waste of time.

    Reading the old class rep meetings gave me so much hope. ZOS was 100% aware Stam Sorcs wanted their own class based ult, going as far to mention Air Atro in the notes yet here we are with a new set (Aegis Caller) that does pretty much what we were asking for!

    I'm currently in college for game development and I know for a fact that it isn't as difficult as it may seem to make some of these class identity changes that we've seemingly had to wait over 1-2 years for. I've given them a free pass because I believe fixing the game code and performance of the game along with standardizing abilities meant we may finally get spellcrafting and achieve a logical sense of balance.. yet I'm still waiting and the next chapter feels like more fluff to me.

    Anyway. Thanks for your work. You guys are awesome.

    @MashmalloMan

    I appreciate the kind words. You should know I am no longer a rep, though the currents reps do embody the nice things that you say.

    I wouldn't say that the Rep feedback goes unheeded. In fact, I can say from personal experience that the devs do in fact listen, hear, and are aware of what we say. I would say the primary reason why this feedback does not get implemented is due to lack of resources or simply other things are prioritized. In any event, I wouldn't say the meetings were a waste of time. Even if there was disagreement, there was communication and sometimes tangible results.

    The sorcerer example was frustrating, but I will give ZOS credit. Some patches later they did adjust the skill such that the cast-time was shorter and the amount of resources returned was greater (if you didn;t spam it). It's still not optimal for DPS parsing, but it's a pretty good skill for PvP. In such an instance my verdict would be "good enough."

    Where there is disagreement, I would say this is mostly due to the devs just having a different vision. It's not that they aren;t listening, rather they have something in mind they really want to make a part of the game. And since it is their game, I can't say I blame them. If I was making a game and it went on my resume, I'd prioritize my vision too.

    Where I do think criticism is warranted, is why are the devs so insistent on cast-times being part of their vision? And if they insist on having them, there should be consistency and a legitimate reward for the player that uses it. In this case, I think they've dropped the ball. The feedback is clear and the vast majority of cast-times were and are not used in competitive game-play, which makes them gimmicks and traps for newer players. If cast-times serve a purpose beyond frustrating players who have to wonder why Incapacitating Strike has had a cast time put on it while Dragon Leap has not, I have not and do not see it playing the game.

    As for class identity, well that's a whole different issue
    Edited by Joy_Division on January 22, 2020 11:09PM
  • BohnT2
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    Honestly, I main Stam Sorc in PvP with the 2H ult I have next to no problems with the cast time. I don't like bashing after abilities anyway and that's what the cast time really prevents here. I simply don't block/roll dodge after I cast the ultimate. It's only 0.4s.

    The crappy feeling is getting it canceled, but isn't that the entire point of the cast time? Counterplay..

    Idk, I'll take it either way, but with the 70-90 ping and stable frame rate I get, it hasn't bothered me too much yet. Perhaps this is why I don't notice a huge problem where others do.

    As a quick comparison, I play a lot of Battlerite which is a top down arena based fighting game with abilities, cooldowns and ultimates. There is no cc immunity whatsoever. Many abilities cast in 0.3 - 1s cast time animations that can be canceled by yourself (there is a button for it) or other players easily (many counters and stuns). The game feels extremely fun to play and I never feel cheated or clunky for losing an ability that has a cast time. Half the engagement is knowing when to use abilities so they don't get canceled by your enemy. I treat ESO the same way.

    Stun enemy first, then ultimate.. idk, 0.4s isn't huge to me. Don't kill me lol.

    Don't get this wrong but then you probably haven't played pvp a lot.
    First of all you got a gcd of ~1 second before you can even start casting your ult.
    Those additional. 4 seconds in PvP get enhanced by lag to up to 1 second.

    That means the guy you CC'd has about 1.4-2 seconds time to break free, be healed by his hots or others or simply block/dodge your ult.

    Even if we take things into account like traveltime of the CC ability, human reaction time, CC break animation there's still an eternity from PvP standards to defend yourself or be saved by others.

    This gets worsened by the huge health pools that became normal due to numerous changes over the last year
  • usmguy1234
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    I request that Dk's need to play a mini game of flappy bird to their intended target.
    Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
    Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
    Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
    Eirius- Altmer Magdk
    Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar

    Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.

  • idk
    idk
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    While I am not a fan of the cast times that have been added I have to ask how OP quantifies a vast majority of players? I am pretty certain none of us can gleam into the minds of a majority of the player base and people make comments of such measurements either based on comments of a very small portion of the player base or suggest such things in order to inflate their opinion in a manner Zos can probably see through.

    All I am suggesting is make a reasonable well worded argument vs inflating it with suggestions Zos knows we have no way of knowing.

    You keep raising the same argument in every thread but you are completely missing the point in pretty much every single thread. The term vast majority is used to emphasize the actual point of the argument. In this case, that cast times need to go. Not to quantify the amount of players that support that argument.

    i think the point being made is that the term "vast majority" is being miss used. by using this term it is in fact quantifying an amount of players

    Exactly. Thanks.
    Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.
    We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/488917/cast-times-on-ultimates ... "are simply horrible" - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484409/cast-times-on-ultimates-should-not-go-live - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484920/cast-timed-ultimates-discussion - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492754/cast-time-utimates-need-to-go - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484238/cast-time-on-ultimates-feels-awful - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/500055/cast-times-so-when-are-they-bieng-removed-from-ultimates - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491990/remove-ultimate-cast-times-for-men-taller-than-173-centimeters - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/436792/cast-time-to-all-shields-not-just-specific-shields - neutral, asking for consistency.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/495644/cast-time-on-ultimates-worries-about-the-future-of-eso - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484572/cast-time-for-ultimates - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/501925/cast-time-on-ults - negative

    Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.

    Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"

    No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.

    I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."

    When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!

    And you make a brilliant point that what OP is likely trying to say is we have spoken in many threads that we do not like cast times. That would be a more logical approach to this discussion.

    Edit: and I certainly agree there is a serious disconnect between Zos and us. While they have grasped some things (cast time on shields) they seem to lack a basic fundamental understanding of combat in their game even though one used to raid at the highest levels and PvP and some do the group content in the game (and vMA) they are still separated form what we actually deal with.
    Edited by idk on January 22, 2020 11:47PM
  • Gnortranermara
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    I'm currently in college for game development and I know for a fact that it isn't as difficult as it may seem to make some of these class identity changes that we've seemingly had to wait over 1-2 years for. I've given them a free pass because I believe fixing the game code and performance of the game along with standardizing abilities meant we may finally get spellcrafting and achieve a logical sense of balance.. yet I'm still waiting and the next chapter feels like more fluff to me.

    I'd rather get mag weapon options (Spellsword+Focus, Alteration, Illusion, Conjuration staves) than spellcrafting, but otherwise yeah, I feel everything you're saying. The main attraction of spellcrafting is build flexibility, but it has so many risks. Confining the new skills to intentionally designed weapon lines would be a much safer and easier way to meet the same goal with fewer unpredictable externalities.
  • MashmalloMan
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    BohnT2 wrote: »
    Honestly, I main Stam Sorc in PvP with the 2H ult I have next to no problems with the cast time. I don't like bashing after abilities anyway and that's what the cast time really prevents here. I simply don't block/roll dodge after I cast the ultimate. It's only 0.4s.

    The crappy feeling is getting it canceled, but isn't that the entire point of the cast time? Counterplay..

    Idk, I'll take it either way, but with the 70-90 ping and stable frame rate I get, it hasn't bothered me too much yet. Perhaps this is why I don't notice a huge problem where others do.

    As a quick comparison, I play a lot of Battlerite which is a top down arena based fighting game with abilities, cooldowns and ultimates. There is no cc immunity whatsoever. Many abilities cast in 0.3 - 1s cast time animations that can be canceled by yourself (there is a button for it) or other players easily (many counters and stuns). The game feels extremely fun to play and I never feel cheated or clunky for losing an ability that has a cast time. Half the engagement is knowing when to use abilities so they don't get canceled by your enemy. I treat ESO the same way.

    Stun enemy first, then ultimate.. idk, 0.4s isn't huge to me. Don't kill me lol.

    Don't get this wrong but then you probably haven't played pvp a lot.
    First of all you got a gcd of ~1 second before you can even start casting your ult.
    Those additional. 4 seconds in PvP get enhanced by lag to up to 1 second.

    That means the guy you CC'd has about 1.4-2 seconds time to break free, be healed by his hots or others or simply block/dodge your ult.

    Even if we take things into account like traveltime of the CC ability, human reaction time, CC break animation there's still an eternity from PvP standards to defend yourself or be saved by others.

    This gets worsened by the huge health pools that became normal due to numerous changes over the last year

    No, I almost exclusively play BG pvps at this point and just because I don't have issue with the cast time doesn't mean I don't understand how it works. Hate to break it to you, but not everyone feels the same way. I understand what a GCD is, but it can be very difficult to break free from a stun in that 1.4s window, at least from MY experience. I use streak as my stun and it even displaces my character so if I don't position myself correctly, my range from my target can make or break hitting them with the .4s cast time so I understand it's shortcomings just fine. When I do use it with the proper spacing it guarantees the hit for me. Like when I'm near a wall.

    You can blame lag for a reason not to include it.. but I don't know. You could say that about any game really. So maybe ZOS considers it still viable because they're performance fixes are suppose to help improve the situation. Maybe it's just the wrong time to implement them.

    I said I could take it or leave it and I said I have a strong connection so maybe that's why it doesn't bother me. I'm neutral on the subject, but I can at least understand why they tried adding the .4s in the first place because I play other games that use them just fine with no immunity from stuns like this game has. They also have cooldowns that mean the ability that gets interrupted is completely wasted. That's a part of the dynamic of PvP in many games. Knowing when and not to cast something, perhaps ZOS is using the same mentality.

    Does it directly translate to this game perfectly? No maybe not, but to say cast times don't make sense, at least from the risk/reward aspect they may be using isn't really true.

    Maybe the cast time should at least be lowered to .3s or .2s to punish stupid decisions, but not making it so clunky to use. Certain abilities, much of them mentioned already, should have the cast time removed or added if they're sticking to their guns about ultimates and their short cast times.

    That being said. I hate anything that's 1s+. They just suck and I'm happy they've changed a lot of them to fit better within 1gcd.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on January 22, 2020 11:36PM
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • Gilvoth
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    Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.

    We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative

    .... a list of links cut for space ...

    Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.

    Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"

    No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.

    I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."

    When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!

    you list a long lengthy list of links that exist on this forum, and you use that as a basis for the false belief that this is the entire eso community speaking when infact, it is only the same small group of people creating the same threads, over, and over, and over, again and again for the past 6 months.

    However what was not included in the comment was that this is against the forum rules in that those are both ongoing petition threads of the same topic.
    not only are those threads considered Spam but they are also petition threads, which again Both are against the forum rules as no petition threads are allowed on this forum.

    in addition to that, those threads include answers in them repeatedly telling the reason Why the cast times were put on ultimates, including a link showing the developers comments and reasoning's why the cast times now exist.
    which bears being repeated here to show relevance.

    Quote:
    Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much. You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore. They are just too powerful.
    End Quote:

    source:
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/p1

    no one wants to die instantly in pvp, the developers decided to not allow players to kill others instantly with no counterplay
    and we all agree with them even if only a few on this forum spam these same threads over and over these facts still remain.

    people would go in stealth, sneak up behind other players and kill them instantly because the ability to cast Multiple damage skills including an ultimate would instantly kill 90% of players in pvp, they never had a chance to defend themselves, they never had a chance to even know they were in a fight, nothing, just death of their character, instantly.

    the developers agreed with the community that this was very annoying and they fixed the problem.
    i hope they keep this change and i know for a fact the community agrees with their decision, not just me.

    you also mentioned about not being able to ask everyone in the community what they want and that is also simply not true.
    if there was an email sent directly to all of the eso @accounts, and asked them directly if they want or do not want anything, not just ultimates cast times but anything in eso that would be the only true and accurate way to find out the actual numbers of who wants or does not want certain things in eso.

    yes at times we do see them mention they made or did not make a change based on what we asked for from multiple sources, but that did not come from spam nor petition threads, it seems to be based on when a large amount of people requesting the same thing, but that is not the case here on the cast time ultimates.
    i would put forward that in the T.O.S. at no time do i recall reading that eso is based on the wants and desires of the people playing, nor even the developers themselves, it looks as if based on a group of private individuals that make the decisions for eso and to my knowledge that is where it ends, and i hope that never changes.
  • Canned_Apples
    Canned_Apples
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ...and yet they continue to add them... even for non-ultimate abilities like Stonefist.
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    ...and yet they continue to add them... even for non-ultimate abilities like Stonefist.

    Yeah that's just a bad idea. Ultimates make sense. That doesn't, but I think everyone can agree on that at least.
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • jcm2606
    jcm2606
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.

    We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative

    .... a list of links cut for space ...

    Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.

    Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"

    No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.

    I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."

    When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!

    you list a long lengthy list of links that exist on this forum, and you use that as a basis for the false belief that this is the entire eso community speaking when infact, it is only the same small group of people creating the same threads, over, and over, and over, again and again for the past 6 months.

    However what was not included in the comment was that this is against the forum rules in that those are both ongoing petition threads of the same topic.
    not only are those threads considered Spam but they are also petition threads, which again Both are against the forum rules as no petition threads are allowed on this forum.

    in addition to that, those threads include answers in them repeatedly telling the reason Why the cast times were put on ultimates, including a link showing the developers comments and reasoning's why the cast times now exist.
    which bears being repeated here to show relevance.

    Quote:
    Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much. You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore. They are just too powerful.
    End Quote:

    source:
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/p1

    no one wants to die instantly in pvp, the developers decided to not allow players to kill others instantly with no counterplay
    and we all agree with them even if only a few on this forum spam these same threads over and over these facts still remain.

    people would go in stealth, sneak up behind other players and kill them instantly because the ability to cast Multiple damage skills including an ultimate would instantly kill 90% of players in pvp, they never had a chance to defend themselves, they never had a chance to even know they were in a fight, nothing, just death of their character, instantly.

    the developers agreed with the community that this was very annoying and they fixed the problem.
    i hope they keep this change and i know for a fact the community agrees with their decision, not just me.

    you also mentioned about not being able to ask everyone in the community what they want and that is also simply not true.
    if there was an email sent directly to all of the eso @accounts, and asked them directly if they want or do not want anything, not just ultimates cast times but anything in eso that would be the only true and accurate way to find out the actual numbers of who wants or does not want certain things in eso.

    yes at times we do see them mention they made or did not make a change based on what we asked for from multiple sources, but that did not come from spam nor petition threads, it seems to be based on when a large amount of people requesting the same thing, but that is not the case here on the cast time ultimates.
    i would put forward that in the T.O.S. at no time do i recall reading that eso is based on the wants and desires of the people playing, nor even the developers themselves, it looks as if based on a group of private individuals that make the decisions for eso and to my knowledge that is where it ends, and i hope that never changes.

    For the umpteenth time, if you're dying instantly in PvP, you're playing wrong and need to L2P. Cast times fix literally nothing, because the same combos that allow people to line up burst to hit all at once are just as effective, even though players can no longer cancel their ultimates.

    Cast times exist because people like you keep parroting the same nonsense, and refuse to accept that you're objectively wrong. With the exception of delayed skills, which are designed to be lined up, the GCD literally disallows multiple skills to be cast at the same time. What you're talking about is literally impossible for the vast majority of skills in the game.

    Stop regurgitating misinformation, jump in game, actually test, and come to the same conclusion we all have -- cast times are there purely because you and people like you would rather scream for nerfs, than learn from your mistakes.
  • TheFM
    TheFM
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Well if someone is running around Cyrodiil with 350 ping you’d never notice cast times. But let’s say you have a strong connection while playing a medium armor high precision build that requires a proper flawless rotation to execute you’d see how cast times effect the gameplay.

    I’ve yet to see an in game example of how this change helps new players.

    When you have a constant bad ping, ie, eu server, the cast times were a blessing, before hand you had players firing off ultis before you could see or hear them, and there was 0 counter play. In a perfect world with a perfect connection, sure, get rid of them, but not being able to respond to ultis is just ridiculous.
  • TheFM
    TheFM
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    BohnT2 wrote: »
    Honestly, I main Stam Sorc in PvP with the 2H ult I have next to no problems with the cast time. I don't like bashing after abilities anyway and that's what the cast time really prevents here. I simply don't block/roll dodge after I cast the ultimate. It's only 0.4s.

    The crappy feeling is getting it canceled, but isn't that the entire point of the cast time? Counterplay..

    Idk, I'll take it either way, but with the 70-90 ping and stable frame rate I get, it hasn't bothered me too much yet. Perhaps this is why I don't notice a huge problem where others do.

    As a quick comparison, I play a lot of Battlerite which is a top down arena based fighting game with abilities, cooldowns and ultimates. There is no cc immunity whatsoever. Many abilities cast in 0.3 - 1s cast time animations that can be canceled by yourself (there is a button for it) or other players easily (many counters and stuns). The game feels extremely fun to play and I never feel cheated or clunky for losing an ability that has a cast time. Half the engagement is knowing when to use abilities so they don't get canceled by your enemy. I treat ESO the same way.

    Stun enemy first, then ultimate.. idk, 0.4s isn't huge to me. Don't kill me lol.

    Don't get this wrong but then you probably haven't played pvp a lot.
    First of all you got a gcd of ~1 second before you can even start casting your ult.
    Those additional. 4 seconds in PvP get enhanced by lag to up to 1 second.

    That means the guy you CC'd has about 1.4-2 seconds time to break free, be healed by his hots or others or simply block/dodge your ult.

    Even if we take things into account like traveltime of the CC ability, human reaction time, CC break animation there's still an eternity from PvP standards to defend yourself or be saved by others.

    This gets worsened by the huge health pools that became normal due to numerous changes over the last year

    counter play is bad i guess.
  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I remember the week when cast times were introduced to the live server. Forum looked like that for quite some time.

    LRNKsm0.png
    That was possibly the most busy time that forum mods had with closing threads since awhile They were closing one every few minutes.
    Edited by Juhasow on January 23, 2020 2:32PM
  • yodased
    yodased
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cancel = good.
    Cast time = bad.
    Damage continuing after cancel = stupidest design.

    All fluid games allow you to cancel to react.

    What the "potatoes" have always complained about is chain combos where the damage portion of the animation continues after its cancelled.

    You should have to complete the animation for the damage to register and that appears what they are unsuccessfully attempting to do.

    Why was dawnbreaker given a cast time? Because you could cancel it so fast all you saw was a flash of light and you had better be reacting to it before it comes. That pushes people away because they are not trying to remember every combo of every spec in the game and have predictive combat. They want reactive combat and sorry if you got used to the predictive way of things they are moving into reactive.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.

    We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative

    .... a list of links cut for space ...

    Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.

    Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"

    No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.

    I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."

    When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!

    you list a long lengthy list of links that exist on this forum, and you use that as a basis for the false belief that this is the entire eso community speaking when infact, it is only the same small group of people creating the same threads, over, and over, and over, again and again for the past 6 months.

    However what was not included in the comment was that this is against the forum rules in that those are both ongoing petition threads of the same topic.
    not only are those threads considered Spam but they are also petition threads, which again Both are against the forum rules as no petition threads are allowed on this forum.

    in addition to that, those threads include answers in them repeatedly telling the reason Why the cast times were put on ultimates, including a link showing the developers comments and reasoning's why the cast times now exist.
    which bears being repeated here to show relevance.

    Quote:
    Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much. You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore. They are just too powerful.
    End Quote:

    source:
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/p1

    no one wants to die instantly in pvp, the developers decided to not allow players to kill others instantly with no counterplay
    and we all agree with them even if only a few on this forum spam these same threads over and over these facts still remain.

    people would go in stealth, sneak up behind other players and kill them instantly because the ability to cast Multiple damage skills including an ultimate would instantly kill 90% of players in pvp, they never had a chance to defend themselves, they never had a chance to even know they were in a fight, nothing, just death of their character, instantly.

    the developers agreed with the community that this was very annoying and they fixed the problem.
    i hope they keep this change and i know for a fact the community agrees with their decision, not just me.

    you also mentioned about not being able to ask everyone in the community what they want and that is also simply not true.
    if there was an email sent directly to all of the eso @accounts, and asked them directly if they want or do not want anything, not just ultimates cast times but anything in eso that would be the only true and accurate way to find out the actual numbers of who wants or does not want certain things in eso.

    yes at times we do see them mention they made or did not make a change based on what we asked for from multiple sources, but that did not come from spam nor petition threads, it seems to be based on when a large amount of people requesting the same thing, but that is not the case here on the cast time ultimates.
    i would put forward that in the T.O.S. at no time do i recall reading that eso is based on the wants and desires of the people playing, nor even the developers themselves, it looks as if based on a group of private individuals that make the decisions for eso and to my knowledge that is where it ends, and i hope that never changes.

    All righty....
    you list a long lengthy list of links that exist on this forum, and you use that as a basis for the false belief that this is the entire eso community speaking when infact, it is only the same small group of people creating the same threads, over, and over, and over, again and again for the past 6 months.
    1. It's not a lengthy list at all. Tip of the iceberg.
    2. "entire eso community" - I said no such thing, but nice try
    3. "same small group of people" - yes, because the group of people we actually have evidence for is ... smaller? ... than the group you contend exists that you do not provide evidence for or any indication of how large it might be.
    4. The threads have been made for the past 6 years, not 6 months.

    Just because something is against the rules, does not invalidate their opinions. They may not be expressing their opinions in a nice way or the way ZOS would like, but that does not make their opinions go away. In fact, dissent, protest, crime rates, and other sort of anti-establishment behavior is a very strong indicator of public opinion used by scholars, public commentators, and other reputable authorities on the subject.

    OK, ZOS provided a reason. And you point is what exactly? That I and others must be of the opinion that ZOS's reasoning is law, sacrosanct, Gospel, etc., and we must agree with it? No wonder you are struggling with the whole concept of public opinion, you seem to be of the belief that if an authority makes some sort of judgement, than public opinion is somehow not allowed to deviate from it.
    no one wants to die instantly in pvp, the developers decided to not allow players to kill others instantly with no counterplay
    and we all agree with them even if only a few on this forum spam these same threads over and over these facts still remain.

    Weren't you just chastising me and others for speaking for "the entire eso community" and yet here you are speaking for the entire eso community. I just love the whole double standard bit, do as I say, but not as I do line of argumentation. No "we all" do not agree. I'll be sure to disagree legally so you'll accept it.
    people would go in stealth, sneak up behind other players and kill them instantly because the ability to cast Multiple damage skills including an ultimate would instantly kill 90% of players in pvp, they never had a chance to defend themselves, they never had a chance to even know they were in a fight, nothing, just death of their character, instantly.

    LOL. Well, here you're only speaking for 90% of the community, so I guess this is progress. If a player is that bad to be killed in this hypothetical scenario where the target is wearing all divines, forgot their food buff, is half asleep, and skipped over the break free part of the tutorial, an extra few hundred milliseconds is not going to save them. The correct remedy to this scenario is to fix bugs that make it possible (such as the old Evil Hunter), reduce the amount of bonus damage from stealth (which ZOS has done), or just tone done the overall amount of damage / fast time-to-kill (which ZOS has also done. In excess actually).
    i hope they keep this change and i know for a fact the community agrees with their decision, not just me.

    That's fine that you do, but neither you nor a dev statement = "the community." The whole logic thing can be kind of tough, but if I, the OP, or these people making the same threads do not equate to the community than neither do you.
    you also mentioned about not being able to ask everyone in the community what they want and that is also simply not true.
    if there was an email sent directly to all of the eso @accounts, and asked them directly if they want or do not want anything, not just ultimates cast times but anything in eso that would be the only true and accurate way to find out the actual numbers of who wants or does not want certain things in eso.

    Wrong answer! People have multiple accounts, so they would be double counted. ZOS would have no way to know whether a non response was because an account no longer plays the game or because someone who does did not reply for whatever reason. And who is going to count the millions of potential replies? Why don;t you do a little experiment and literally go through a million emails and tell us when we might expect your "actual numbers" of people who were doubled counted or not even counted.

    The most amusing part of this whole episode is the very post you are quoting from ZOS says that you are wrong and I am right. Of course you chose not to include the juicy part:
    ZOS wrote:
    Adding cast times to Ultimates appears to be a change most people here have reacted negatively to. Why are these cast times being added? What issue is the team attempting to solve with this change?
    Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play ....

    What's this? It looks the the "entire community" does not feel the way that you do and ZOS knows this perfectly well, yet implemented the change anyway. They did not do it because
    yes at times we do see them mention they made or did not make a change based on what we asked for from multiple sources, but that did not come from spam nor petition threads, it seems to be based on when a large amount of people requesting the same thing, but that is not the case here on the cast time ultimates.

    Nope! "a large amount of people" lol. ZOS flat out admitted it made the change because it was something they believed was best, a change that they acknowledged that most have reacted negatively to.
    Edited by Joy_Division on January 23, 2020 6:02AM
  • Rikumaru
    Rikumaru
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.

    We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative

    .... a list of links cut for space ...

    Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.

    Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"

    No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.

    I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."

    When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!

    you list a long lengthy list of links that exist on this forum, and you use that as a basis for the false belief that this is the entire eso community speaking when infact, it is only the same small group of people creating the same threads, over, and over, and over, again and again for the past 6 months.

    However what was not included in the comment was that this is against the forum rules in that those are both ongoing petition threads of the same topic.
    not only are those threads considered Spam but they are also petition threads, which again Both are against the forum rules as no petition threads are allowed on this forum.

    in addition to that, those threads include answers in them repeatedly telling the reason Why the cast times were put on ultimates, including a link showing the developers comments and reasoning's why the cast times now exist.
    which bears being repeated here to show relevance.

    Quote:
    Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much. You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore. They are just too powerful.
    End Quote:

    source:
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/p1

    no one wants to die instantly in pvp, the developers decided to not allow players to kill others instantly with no counterplay
    and we all agree with them even if only a few on this forum spam these same threads over and over these facts still remain.

    people would go in stealth, sneak up behind other players and kill them instantly because the ability to cast Multiple damage skills including an ultimate would instantly kill 90% of players in pvp, they never had a chance to defend themselves, they never had a chance to even know they were in a fight, nothing, just death of their character, instantly.

    the developers agreed with the community that this was very annoying and they fixed the problem.
    i hope they keep this change and i know for a fact the community agrees with their decision, not just me.

    you also mentioned about not being able to ask everyone in the community what they want and that is also simply not true.
    if there was an email sent directly to all of the eso @accounts, and asked them directly if they want or do not want anything, not just ultimates cast times but anything in eso that would be the only true and accurate way to find out the actual numbers of who wants or does not want certain things in eso.

    yes at times we do see them mention they made or did not make a change based on what we asked for from multiple sources, but that did not come from spam nor petition threads, it seems to be based on when a large amount of people requesting the same thing, but that is not the case here on the cast time ultimates.
    i would put forward that in the T.O.S. at no time do i recall reading that eso is based on the wants and desires of the people playing, nor even the developers themselves, it looks as if based on a group of private individuals that make the decisions for eso and to my knowledge that is where it ends, and i hope that never changes.

    All righty....
    you list a long lengthy list of links that exist on this forum, and you use that as a basis for the false belief that this is the entire eso community speaking when infact, it is only the same small group of people creating the same threads, over, and over, and over, again and again for the past 6 months.
    1. It's not a lengthy list at all. Tip of the iceberg.
    2. "entire eso community" - I said no such thing, but nice try
    3. "same small group of people" - yes, because the group of people we actually have evidence for is ... smaller? ... than the group you contend exists that you do not provide evidence for or any indication of how large it might be.
    4. The threads have been made for the past 6 years, not 6 months.

    Just because something is against the rules, does not invalidate their opinions. They may not be expressing their opinions in a nice way or the way ZOS would like, but that does not make their opinions go away. In fact, dissent, protest, crime rates, and other sort of anti-establishment behavior is a very strong indicator of public opinion used by scholars, public commentators, and other reputable authorities on the subject.

    OK, ZOS provided a reason. And you point is what exactly? That I and others must be of the opinion that ZOS's reasoning is law, sacrosanct, Gospel, etc., and we must agree with it? No wonder you are struggling with the whole concept of public opinion, you seem to be of the belief that if an authority makes some sort of judgement, than public opinion is somehow not allowed to deviate from it.
    no one wants to die instantly in pvp, the developers decided to not allow players to kill others instantly with no counterplay
    and we all agree with them even if only a few on this forum spam these same threads over and over these facts still remain.

    Weren't you just chastising me and others for speaking for "the entire eso community" and yet here you are speaking for the entire eso community. I just love the whole double standard bit, do as I say, but not as I do line of argumentation. No "we all" do not agree. I'll be sure to disagree legally so you'll accept it.
    people would go in stealth, sneak up behind other players and kill them instantly because the ability to cast Multiple damage skills including an ultimate would instantly kill 90% of players in pvp, they never had a chance to defend themselves, they never had a chance to even know they were in a fight, nothing, just death of their character, instantly.

    LOL. Well, here you're only speaking for 90% of the community, so I guess this is progress. If a player is that bad to be killed in this hypothetical scenario where the target is wearing all divines, forgot their food buff, is half asleep, and skipped over the break free part of the tutorial, an extra few hundred milliseconds is not going to save them. The correct remedy to this scenario is to fix bugs that make it possible (such as the old Evil Hunter), reduce the amount of bonus damage from stealth (which ZOS has done), or just tone done the overall amount of damage / fast time-to-kill (which ZOS has also done. In excess actually).
    i hope they keep this change and i know for a fact the community agrees with their decision, not just me.

    That's fine that you do, but neither you nor a dev statement = "the community." The whole logic thing can be kind of tough, but if I, the OP, or these people making the same threads do not equate to the community than neither do you.
    you also mentioned about not being able to ask everyone in the community what they want and that is also simply not true.
    if there was an email sent directly to all of the eso @accounts, and asked them directly if they want or do not want anything, not just ultimates cast times but anything in eso that would be the only true and accurate way to find out the actual numbers of who wants or does not want certain things in eso.

    Wrong answer! People have multiple accounts, so they would be double counted. ZOS would have no way to know whether a non response was because an account no longer plays the game or because someone who does did not reply for whatever reason. And who is going to count the millions of potential replies? Why don;t you do a little experiment and literally go through a million emails and tell us when we might expect your "actual numbers" of people who were doubled counted or not even counted.

    The most amusing part of this whole episode is the very post you are quoting from ZOS says that you are wrong and I am right. Of course you chose not to include the juicy part:
    ZOS wrote:
    Adding cast times to Ultimates appears to be a change most people here have reacted negatively to. Why are these cast times being added? What issue is the team attempting to solve with this change?
    Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play ....

    What's this? It looks the the "entire community" does not feel the way that you do and ZOS knows this perfectly well, yet implemented the change anyway. They did not do it because
    yes at times we do see them mention they made or did not make a change based on what we asked for from multiple sources, but that did not come from spam nor petition threads, it seems to be based on when a large amount of people requesting the same thing, but that is not the case here on the cast time ultimates.

    Nope! "a large amount of people" lol. ZOS flat out admitted it made the change because it was something they believed was best, a change that they acknowledged that most have reacted negatively to.

    Press F to pay respects.
    Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.
  • IAVITNI
    IAVITNI
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    Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.

    We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/488917/cast-times-on-ultimates ... "are simply horrible" - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484409/cast-times-on-ultimates-should-not-go-live - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484920/cast-timed-ultimates-discussion - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492754/cast-time-utimates-need-to-go - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484238/cast-time-on-ultimates-feels-awful - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/500055/cast-times-so-when-are-they-bieng-removed-from-ultimates - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491990/remove-ultimate-cast-times-for-men-taller-than-173-centimeters - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/436792/cast-time-to-all-shields-not-just-specific-shields - neutral, asking for consistency.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/495644/cast-time-on-ultimates-worries-about-the-future-of-eso - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484572/cast-time-for-ultimates - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/501925/cast-time-on-ults - negative

    Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.

    Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"

    No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.

    I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."

    When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!

    People like this are the ones ZoS should be listening too. Logical arguments backed my empirical evidence presented in an intelligent and coherent manner. The above argument also addresses counter arguments and explains how those arguments are flawed in a logical manner without resorting to name calling.

    It would be great if ZoS would listen to feedback like this. Maybe have a select group of players proven to be knowledgeable of game mechanics that they can go to for credible feedback. Have discussions that address the real issues of the game with people who understand the vast majority of the player base and not just the loudest of the player base. These players could represent the vast majority and communicate what others want to say in a calm and precise manner.

    For people who complain about ani cancelling, it's part of many combat games and many developers in fact develop the game around those cancels and transitions as it adds an additional level of skilled gameplay and creates fluidity in combat.

    In fact ani cancelling actually emulates real life combat more than games with no ani cancelling. The simplest example is a punch. More experienced fighters do not telegraph their punches as much, and throw their punches with far less wasted movement. Similarly, more experienced players will cancel animations to reduce wasted downtime for command inputs.

    ESO was known for its fast paced combat. I understand that ZoS is related to Bethesda but turn based combat via VATs was never intended for ESO and cast times are slowly moving the game in that direction except the kill cams are far less cool
  • ThePhantomThorn
    ThePhantomThorn
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    I would say something bad about cast times.
    But everything I have has already been said

    @ZOS_GinaBruno
    @ZOS_BrianWheeler
    @ZOS_Gilliam
    The combat team doesn’t listen. They don’t have any clue as to how to balance game.
    If you pay any attention to this, then you will see that everyone hates cast times (with the exception of gilvoth) so just remove them
  • Zer0_CooL
    Zer0_CooL
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    The Majority? Do you have any valid data to prove your allegation?
  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
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    I support OP on this. No one asked for cast times.
  • Artorias24
    Artorias24
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    Zer0_CooL wrote: »
    The Majority? Do you have any valid data to prove your allegation?

    Maybe lets put it in another way. The vast majority of player who participate in PTS cycles and giving Feedback about the game to help and improve it are against cast times.
  • killingspreeb16_ESO
    killingspreeb16_ESO
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    Gilvoth wrote: »
    Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.

    We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative

    .... a list of links cut for space ...

    Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.

    Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"

    No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.

    I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."

    When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!

    you list a long lengthy list of links that exist on this forum, and you use that as a basis for the false belief that this is the entire eso community speaking when infact, it is only the same small group of people creating the same threads, over, and over, and over, again and again for the past 6 months.

    However what was not included in the comment was that this is against the forum rules in that those are both ongoing petition threads of the same topic.
    not only are those threads considered Spam but they are also petition threads, which again Both are against the forum rules as no petition threads are allowed on this forum.

    in addition to that, those threads include answers in them repeatedly telling the reason Why the cast times were put on ultimates, including a link showing the developers comments and reasoning's why the cast times now exist.
    which bears being repeated here to show relevance.

    Quote:
    Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much. You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore. They are just too powerful.
    End Quote:

    source:
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/p1

    no one wants to die instantly in pvp, the developers decided to not allow players to kill others instantly with no counterplay
    and we all agree with them even if only a few on this forum spam these same threads over and over these facts still remain.

    people would go in stealth, sneak up behind other players and kill them instantly because the ability to cast Multiple damage skills including an ultimate would instantly kill 90% of players in pvp, they never had a chance to defend themselves, they never had a chance to even know they were in a fight, nothing, just death of their character, instantly.

    the developers agreed with the community that this was very annoying and they fixed the problem.
    i hope they keep this change and i know for a fact the community agrees with their decision, not just me.

    you also mentioned about not being able to ask everyone in the community what they want and that is also simply not true.
    if there was an email sent directly to all of the eso @accounts, and asked them directly if they want or do not want anything, not just ultimates cast times but anything in eso that would be the only true and accurate way to find out the actual numbers of who wants or does not want certain things in eso.

    yes at times we do see them mention they made or did not make a change based on what we asked for from multiple sources, but that did not come from spam nor petition threads, it seems to be based on when a large amount of people requesting the same thing, but that is not the case here on the cast time ultimates.
    i would put forward that in the T.O.S. at no time do i recall reading that eso is based on the wants and desires of the people playing, nor even the developers themselves, it looks as if based on a group of private individuals that make the decisions for eso and to my knowledge that is where it ends, and i hope that never changes.

    Keep parroting the same thing over and over and over again.
    no one wants to die instantly in pvp, the developers decided to not allow players to kill others instantly with no counterplay
    and we all agree with them even if only a few on this forum spam these same threads over and over these facts still remain.

    So people that keep making thread and stuff are not the majority but you with no evidence at all say "WE ALL AGREE" if many people agree with you then why almost no one support what you say?
    Also how do you know that 90% of the player base die istantly?im one of the elite 10% all of sudden?

    Also if it possible to hit 3-4 skill at once(because in the game you play GCD is imaginary i guess)then log in the game record yourself killing people with 3-4 skill hitting at the same time(it's obvious but im going to add this anyway delayed skill do not count),because right now you can still do it just not with every ultimate but who need ultimate when you can hit people with 3-4 skill at once.
  • yodased
    yodased
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Since i guess you all just wanna argue about semantics and be pedantic lets circle back to the actual issue

    animation cancelling and instant cast abilities together should never continue the damage if the are cancelled.

    No other mmorpg or rpg or PvP or AvA has this where you are attacking something and the block, cancelling the animation of the attack to block and the attack still goes through.

    You know what has that? Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken (kinda) etc.

    These are because you are fighting 1 player and its expected for you to be predictive in combat. Eso is on paper a reactive game, sure you can be predictive and that will give you an advantage, but right now as it is the game punishes reactive gameplay and rewards predictive.

    Animation cancelling in all forms needs to exist, even those who don't understand it and call it cheating would probably not like this game if you couldn't stop your channel to block or dodge, BUT

    There is no reason that the damage portion of the skill should still go through when the animation is cancelled.

    If you are lobbying for this then you are lobbying for making this a fighting game like Street Fighter, not trying to make it a balanced experience for AvAvA or 4v4v4 or small scale v 30 whatever.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
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