ZombieMayhem wrote: »Vast majority = "Someone said it in zone chat and I decided it made sense."
Essentially what I'm hearing is:
"I'm not very good at something, so instead of learning and practicing like everyone else, I'm going to go hit up the forums and flap my yapper, so everyone will know that I refuse to learn. CHANGE THE WHOLE WORLD TO FIT ME OR YOU'RE JUST IN IT FOR THE MONEY!"
Joy_Division wrote: »Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.
We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/488917/cast-times-on-ultimates ... "are simply horrible" - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484409/cast-times-on-ultimates-should-not-go-live - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484920/cast-timed-ultimates-discussion - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492754/cast-time-utimates-need-to-go - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484238/cast-time-on-ultimates-feels-awful - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/500055/cast-times-so-when-are-they-bieng-removed-from-ultimates - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491990/remove-ultimate-cast-times-for-men-taller-than-173-centimeters - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/436792/cast-time-to-all-shields-not-just-specific-shields - neutral, asking for consistency.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/495644/cast-time-on-ultimates-worries-about-the-future-of-eso - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484572/cast-time-for-ultimates - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/501925/cast-time-on-ults - negative
Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.
Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"
No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.
I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."
When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!
Joy_Division wrote: »Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.
We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/488917/cast-times-on-ultimates ... "are simply horrible" - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484409/cast-times-on-ultimates-should-not-go-live - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484920/cast-timed-ultimates-discussion - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492754/cast-time-utimates-need-to-go - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484238/cast-time-on-ultimates-feels-awful - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/500055/cast-times-so-when-are-they-bieng-removed-from-ultimates - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491990/remove-ultimate-cast-times-for-men-taller-than-173-centimeters - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/436792/cast-time-to-all-shields-not-just-specific-shields - neutral, asking for consistency.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/495644/cast-time-on-ultimates-worries-about-the-future-of-eso - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484572/cast-time-for-ultimates - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/501925/cast-time-on-ults - negative
Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.
Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"
No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.
I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."
When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!
MashmalloMan wrote: »@Joy_Division wow. Great comment. It must of been so frustrating for you and other reps to place so much time and dedication in to funneling community feedback to the devs just to hear them ask why sorcs didn't use dark exchange/deal in PvE. Lmao, what space first of all? If your a Stam Sorc you need bound armaments on both bars. If your a Mag Sorc pets are the strongest route and take up 2 slots, even non pet sorcs don't have room or a purpose to use their class execute.
I have nothing but respect and admiration for you and the unpaid class reps that put in so much effort to go unheard. The reps in the beginning that held discussion after discussion on the forums only to leave the program later most likely because they felt it was a waste of time.
Reading the old class rep meetings gave me so much hope. ZOS was 100% aware Stam Sorcs wanted their own class based ult, going as far to mention Air Atro in the notes yet here we are with a new set (Aegis Caller) that does pretty much what we were asking for!
I'm currently in college for game development and I know for a fact that it isn't as difficult as it may seem to make some of these class identity changes that we've seemingly had to wait over 1-2 years for. I've given them a free pass because I believe fixing the game code and performance of the game along with standardizing abilities meant we may finally get spellcrafting and achieve a logical sense of balance.. yet I'm still waiting and the next chapter feels like more fluff to me.
Anyway. Thanks for your work. You guys are awesome.
MashmalloMan wrote: »Honestly, I main Stam Sorc in PvP with the 2H ult I have next to no problems with the cast time. I don't like bashing after abilities anyway and that's what the cast time really prevents here. I simply don't block/roll dodge after I cast the ultimate. It's only 0.4s.
The crappy feeling is getting it canceled, but isn't that the entire point of the cast time? Counterplay..
Idk, I'll take it either way, but with the 70-90 ping and stable frame rate I get, it hasn't bothered me too much yet. Perhaps this is why I don't notice a huge problem where others do.
As a quick comparison, I play a lot of Battlerite which is a top down arena based fighting game with abilities, cooldowns and ultimates. There is no cc immunity whatsoever. Many abilities cast in 0.3 - 1s cast time animations that can be canceled by yourself (there is a button for it) or other players easily (many counters and stuns). The game feels extremely fun to play and I never feel cheated or clunky for losing an ability that has a cast time. Half the engagement is knowing when to use abilities so they don't get canceled by your enemy. I treat ESO the same way.
Stun enemy first, then ultimate.. idk, 0.4s isn't huge to me. Don't kill me lol.
Alienoutlaw wrote: »While I am not a fan of the cast times that have been added I have to ask how OP quantifies a vast majority of players? I am pretty certain none of us can gleam into the minds of a majority of the player base and people make comments of such measurements either based on comments of a very small portion of the player base or suggest such things in order to inflate their opinion in a manner Zos can probably see through.
All I am suggesting is make a reasonable well worded argument vs inflating it with suggestions Zos knows we have no way of knowing.
You keep raising the same argument in every thread but you are completely missing the point in pretty much every single thread. The term vast majority is used to emphasize the actual point of the argument. In this case, that cast times need to go. Not to quantify the amount of players that support that argument.
i think the point being made is that the term "vast majority" is being miss used. by using this term it is in fact quantifying an amount of players
Joy_Division wrote: »Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/488917/cast-times-on-ultimates ... "are simply horrible" - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484409/cast-times-on-ultimates-should-not-go-live - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484920/cast-timed-ultimates-discussion - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492754/cast-time-utimates-need-to-go - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484238/cast-time-on-ultimates-feels-awful - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/500055/cast-times-so-when-are-they-bieng-removed-from-ultimates - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491990/remove-ultimate-cast-times-for-men-taller-than-173-centimeters - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/436792/cast-time-to-all-shields-not-just-specific-shields - neutral, asking for consistency.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/495644/cast-time-on-ultimates-worries-about-the-future-of-eso - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484572/cast-time-for-ultimates - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/501925/cast-time-on-ults - negative
Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.
Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"
No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.
I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."
When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!
MashmalloMan wrote: »I'm currently in college for game development and I know for a fact that it isn't as difficult as it may seem to make some of these class identity changes that we've seemingly had to wait over 1-2 years for. I've given them a free pass because I believe fixing the game code and performance of the game along with standardizing abilities meant we may finally get spellcrafting and achieve a logical sense of balance.. yet I'm still waiting and the next chapter feels like more fluff to me.
MashmalloMan wrote: »Honestly, I main Stam Sorc in PvP with the 2H ult I have next to no problems with the cast time. I don't like bashing after abilities anyway and that's what the cast time really prevents here. I simply don't block/roll dodge after I cast the ultimate. It's only 0.4s.
The crappy feeling is getting it canceled, but isn't that the entire point of the cast time? Counterplay..
Idk, I'll take it either way, but with the 70-90 ping and stable frame rate I get, it hasn't bothered me too much yet. Perhaps this is why I don't notice a huge problem where others do.
As a quick comparison, I play a lot of Battlerite which is a top down arena based fighting game with abilities, cooldowns and ultimates. There is no cc immunity whatsoever. Many abilities cast in 0.3 - 1s cast time animations that can be canceled by yourself (there is a button for it) or other players easily (many counters and stuns). The game feels extremely fun to play and I never feel cheated or clunky for losing an ability that has a cast time. Half the engagement is knowing when to use abilities so they don't get canceled by your enemy. I treat ESO the same way.
Stun enemy first, then ultimate.. idk, 0.4s isn't huge to me. Don't kill me lol.
Don't get this wrong but then you probably haven't played pvp a lot.
First of all you got a gcd of ~1 second before you can even start casting your ult.
Those additional. 4 seconds in PvP get enhanced by lag to up to 1 second.
That means the guy you CC'd has about 1.4-2 seconds time to break free, be healed by his hots or others or simply block/dodge your ult.
Even if we take things into account like traveltime of the CC ability, human reaction time, CC break animation there's still an eternity from PvP standards to defend yourself or be saved by others.
This gets worsened by the huge health pools that became normal due to numerous changes over the last year
Joy_Division wrote: »Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.
We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative
.... a list of links cut for space ...
Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.
Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"
No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.
I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."
When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!
Canned_Apples wrote: »...and yet they continue to add them... even for non-ultimate abilities like Stonefist.
Joy_Division wrote: »Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.
We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative
.... a list of links cut for space ...
Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.
Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"
No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.
I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."
When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!
you list a long lengthy list of links that exist on this forum, and you use that as a basis for the false belief that this is the entire eso community speaking when infact, it is only the same small group of people creating the same threads, over, and over, and over, again and again for the past 6 months.
However what was not included in the comment was that this is against the forum rules in that those are both ongoing petition threads of the same topic.
not only are those threads considered Spam but they are also petition threads, which again Both are against the forum rules as no petition threads are allowed on this forum.
in addition to that, those threads include answers in them repeatedly telling the reason Why the cast times were put on ultimates, including a link showing the developers comments and reasoning's why the cast times now exist.
which bears being repeated here to show relevance.
Quote:
Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much. You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore. They are just too powerful.
End Quote:
source:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/p1
no one wants to die instantly in pvp, the developers decided to not allow players to kill others instantly with no counterplay
and we all agree with them even if only a few on this forum spam these same threads over and over these facts still remain.
people would go in stealth, sneak up behind other players and kill them instantly because the ability to cast Multiple damage skills including an ultimate would instantly kill 90% of players in pvp, they never had a chance to defend themselves, they never had a chance to even know they were in a fight, nothing, just death of their character, instantly.
the developers agreed with the community that this was very annoying and they fixed the problem.
i hope they keep this change and i know for a fact the community agrees with their decision, not just me.
you also mentioned about not being able to ask everyone in the community what they want and that is also simply not true.
if there was an email sent directly to all of the eso @accounts, and asked them directly if they want or do not want anything, not just ultimates cast times but anything in eso that would be the only true and accurate way to find out the actual numbers of who wants or does not want certain things in eso.
yes at times we do see them mention they made or did not make a change based on what we asked for from multiple sources, but that did not come from spam nor petition threads, it seems to be based on when a large amount of people requesting the same thing, but that is not the case here on the cast time ultimates.
i would put forward that in the T.O.S. at no time do i recall reading that eso is based on the wants and desires of the people playing, nor even the developers themselves, it looks as if based on a group of private individuals that make the decisions for eso and to my knowledge that is where it ends, and i hope that never changes.
Fur_like_snow wrote: »Well if someone is running around Cyrodiil with 350 ping you’d never notice cast times. But let’s say you have a strong connection while playing a medium armor high precision build that requires a proper flawless rotation to execute you’d see how cast times effect the gameplay.
I’ve yet to see an in game example of how this change helps new players.
MashmalloMan wrote: »Honestly, I main Stam Sorc in PvP with the 2H ult I have next to no problems with the cast time. I don't like bashing after abilities anyway and that's what the cast time really prevents here. I simply don't block/roll dodge after I cast the ultimate. It's only 0.4s.
The crappy feeling is getting it canceled, but isn't that the entire point of the cast time? Counterplay..
Idk, I'll take it either way, but with the 70-90 ping and stable frame rate I get, it hasn't bothered me too much yet. Perhaps this is why I don't notice a huge problem where others do.
As a quick comparison, I play a lot of Battlerite which is a top down arena based fighting game with abilities, cooldowns and ultimates. There is no cc immunity whatsoever. Many abilities cast in 0.3 - 1s cast time animations that can be canceled by yourself (there is a button for it) or other players easily (many counters and stuns). The game feels extremely fun to play and I never feel cheated or clunky for losing an ability that has a cast time. Half the engagement is knowing when to use abilities so they don't get canceled by your enemy. I treat ESO the same way.
Stun enemy first, then ultimate.. idk, 0.4s isn't huge to me. Don't kill me lol.
Don't get this wrong but then you probably haven't played pvp a lot.
First of all you got a gcd of ~1 second before you can even start casting your ult.
Those additional. 4 seconds in PvP get enhanced by lag to up to 1 second.
That means the guy you CC'd has about 1.4-2 seconds time to break free, be healed by his hots or others or simply block/dodge your ult.
Even if we take things into account like traveltime of the CC ability, human reaction time, CC break animation there's still an eternity from PvP standards to defend yourself or be saved by others.
This gets worsened by the huge health pools that became normal due to numerous changes over the last year
Joy_Division wrote: »Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.
We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative
.... a list of links cut for space ...
Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.
Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"
No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.
I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."
When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!
you list a long lengthy list of links that exist on this forum, and you use that as a basis for the false belief that this is the entire eso community speaking when infact, it is only the same small group of people creating the same threads, over, and over, and over, again and again for the past 6 months.
However what was not included in the comment was that this is against the forum rules in that those are both ongoing petition threads of the same topic.
not only are those threads considered Spam but they are also petition threads, which again Both are against the forum rules as no petition threads are allowed on this forum.
in addition to that, those threads include answers in them repeatedly telling the reason Why the cast times were put on ultimates, including a link showing the developers comments and reasoning's why the cast times now exist.
which bears being repeated here to show relevance.
Quote:
Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much. You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore. They are just too powerful.
End Quote:
source:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/p1
no one wants to die instantly in pvp, the developers decided to not allow players to kill others instantly with no counterplay
and we all agree with them even if only a few on this forum spam these same threads over and over these facts still remain.
people would go in stealth, sneak up behind other players and kill them instantly because the ability to cast Multiple damage skills including an ultimate would instantly kill 90% of players in pvp, they never had a chance to defend themselves, they never had a chance to even know they were in a fight, nothing, just death of their character, instantly.
the developers agreed with the community that this was very annoying and they fixed the problem.
i hope they keep this change and i know for a fact the community agrees with their decision, not just me.
you also mentioned about not being able to ask everyone in the community what they want and that is also simply not true.
if there was an email sent directly to all of the eso @accounts, and asked them directly if they want or do not want anything, not just ultimates cast times but anything in eso that would be the only true and accurate way to find out the actual numbers of who wants or does not want certain things in eso.
yes at times we do see them mention they made or did not make a change based on what we asked for from multiple sources, but that did not come from spam nor petition threads, it seems to be based on when a large amount of people requesting the same thing, but that is not the case here on the cast time ultimates.
i would put forward that in the T.O.S. at no time do i recall reading that eso is based on the wants and desires of the people playing, nor even the developers themselves, it looks as if based on a group of private individuals that make the decisions for eso and to my knowledge that is where it ends, and i hope that never changes.
you list a long lengthy list of links that exist on this forum, and you use that as a basis for the false belief that this is the entire eso community speaking when infact, it is only the same small group of people creating the same threads, over, and over, and over, again and again for the past 6 months.
no one wants to die instantly in pvp, the developers decided to not allow players to kill others instantly with no counterplay
and we all agree with them even if only a few on this forum spam these same threads over and over these facts still remain.
people would go in stealth, sneak up behind other players and kill them instantly because the ability to cast Multiple damage skills including an ultimate would instantly kill 90% of players in pvp, they never had a chance to defend themselves, they never had a chance to even know they were in a fight, nothing, just death of their character, instantly.
i hope they keep this change and i know for a fact the community agrees with their decision, not just me.
you also mentioned about not being able to ask everyone in the community what they want and that is also simply not true.
if there was an email sent directly to all of the eso @accounts, and asked them directly if they want or do not want anything, not just ultimates cast times but anything in eso that would be the only true and accurate way to find out the actual numbers of who wants or does not want certain things in eso.
ZOS wrote:Adding cast times to Ultimates appears to be a change most people here have reacted negatively to. Why are these cast times being added? What issue is the team attempting to solve with this change?
Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play ....
yes at times we do see them mention they made or did not make a change based on what we asked for from multiple sources, but that did not come from spam nor petition threads, it seems to be based on when a large amount of people requesting the same thing, but that is not the case here on the cast time ultimates.
Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.
We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative
.... a list of links cut for space ...
Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.
Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"
No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.
I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."
When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!
you list a long lengthy list of links that exist on this forum, and you use that as a basis for the false belief that this is the entire eso community speaking when infact, it is only the same small group of people creating the same threads, over, and over, and over, again and again for the past 6 months.
However what was not included in the comment was that this is against the forum rules in that those are both ongoing petition threads of the same topic.
not only are those threads considered Spam but they are also petition threads, which again Both are against the forum rules as no petition threads are allowed on this forum.
in addition to that, those threads include answers in them repeatedly telling the reason Why the cast times were put on ultimates, including a link showing the developers comments and reasoning's why the cast times now exist.
which bears being repeated here to show relevance.
Quote:
Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much. You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore. They are just too powerful.
End Quote:
source:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/p1
no one wants to die instantly in pvp, the developers decided to not allow players to kill others instantly with no counterplay
and we all agree with them even if only a few on this forum spam these same threads over and over these facts still remain.
people would go in stealth, sneak up behind other players and kill them instantly because the ability to cast Multiple damage skills including an ultimate would instantly kill 90% of players in pvp, they never had a chance to defend themselves, they never had a chance to even know they were in a fight, nothing, just death of their character, instantly.
the developers agreed with the community that this was very annoying and they fixed the problem.
i hope they keep this change and i know for a fact the community agrees with their decision, not just me.
you also mentioned about not being able to ask everyone in the community what they want and that is also simply not true.
if there was an email sent directly to all of the eso @accounts, and asked them directly if they want or do not want anything, not just ultimates cast times but anything in eso that would be the only true and accurate way to find out the actual numbers of who wants or does not want certain things in eso.
yes at times we do see them mention they made or did not make a change based on what we asked for from multiple sources, but that did not come from spam nor petition threads, it seems to be based on when a large amount of people requesting the same thing, but that is not the case here on the cast time ultimates.
i would put forward that in the T.O.S. at no time do i recall reading that eso is based on the wants and desires of the people playing, nor even the developers themselves, it looks as if based on a group of private individuals that make the decisions for eso and to my knowledge that is where it ends, and i hope that never changes.
All righty....you list a long lengthy list of links that exist on this forum, and you use that as a basis for the false belief that this is the entire eso community speaking when infact, it is only the same small group of people creating the same threads, over, and over, and over, again and again for the past 6 months.
- It's not a lengthy list at all. Tip of the iceberg.
- "entire eso community" - I said no such thing, but nice try
- "same small group of people" - yes, because the group of people we actually have evidence for is ... smaller? ... than the group you contend exists that you do not provide evidence for or any indication of how large it might be.
- The threads have been made for the past 6 years, not 6 months.
Just because something is against the rules, does not invalidate their opinions. They may not be expressing their opinions in a nice way or the way ZOS would like, but that does not make their opinions go away. In fact, dissent, protest, crime rates, and other sort of anti-establishment behavior is a very strong indicator of public opinion used by scholars, public commentators, and other reputable authorities on the subject.
OK, ZOS provided a reason. And you point is what exactly? That I and others must be of the opinion that ZOS's reasoning is law, sacrosanct, Gospel, etc., and we must agree with it? No wonder you are struggling with the whole concept of public opinion, you seem to be of the belief that if an authority makes some sort of judgement, than public opinion is somehow not allowed to deviate from it.no one wants to die instantly in pvp, the developers decided to not allow players to kill others instantly with no counterplay
and we all agree with them even if only a few on this forum spam these same threads over and over these facts still remain.
Weren't you just chastising me and others for speaking for "the entire eso community" and yet here you are speaking for the entire eso community. I just love the whole double standard bit, do as I say, but not as I do line of argumentation. No "we all" do not agree. I'll be sure to disagree legally so you'll accept it.people would go in stealth, sneak up behind other players and kill them instantly because the ability to cast Multiple damage skills including an ultimate would instantly kill 90% of players in pvp, they never had a chance to defend themselves, they never had a chance to even know they were in a fight, nothing, just death of their character, instantly.
LOL. Well, here you're only speaking for 90% of the community, so I guess this is progress. If a player is that bad to be killed in this hypothetical scenario where the target is wearing all divines, forgot their food buff, is half asleep, and skipped over the break free part of the tutorial, an extra few hundred milliseconds is not going to save them. The correct remedy to this scenario is to fix bugs that make it possible (such as the old Evil Hunter), reduce the amount of bonus damage from stealth (which ZOS has done), or just tone done the overall amount of damage / fast time-to-kill (which ZOS has also done. In excess actually).i hope they keep this change and i know for a fact the community agrees with their decision, not just me.
That's fine that you do, but neither you nor a dev statement = "the community." The whole logic thing can be kind of tough, but if I, the OP, or these people making the same threads do not equate to the community than neither do you.you also mentioned about not being able to ask everyone in the community what they want and that is also simply not true.
if there was an email sent directly to all of the eso @accounts, and asked them directly if they want or do not want anything, not just ultimates cast times but anything in eso that would be the only true and accurate way to find out the actual numbers of who wants or does not want certain things in eso.
Wrong answer! People have multiple accounts, so they would be double counted. ZOS would have no way to know whether a non response was because an account no longer plays the game or because someone who does did not reply for whatever reason. And who is going to count the millions of potential replies? Why don;t you do a little experiment and literally go through a million emails and tell us when we might expect your "actual numbers" of people who were doubled counted or not even counted.
The most amusing part of this whole episode is the very post you are quoting from ZOS says that you are wrong and I am right. Of course you chose not to include the juicy part:ZOS wrote:Adding cast times to Ultimates appears to be a change most people here have reacted negatively to. Why are these cast times being added? What issue is the team attempting to solve with this change?
Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play ....
What's this? It looks the the "entire community" does not feel the way that you do and ZOS knows this perfectly well, yet implemented the change anyway. They did not do it becauseyes at times we do see them mention they made or did not make a change based on what we asked for from multiple sources, but that did not come from spam nor petition threads, it seems to be based on when a large amount of people requesting the same thing, but that is not the case here on the cast time ultimates.
Nope! "a large amount of people" lol. ZOS flat out admitted it made the change because it was something they believed was best, a change that they acknowledged that most have reacted negatively to.
Joy_Division wrote: »Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.
We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/488917/cast-times-on-ultimates ... "are simply horrible" - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484409/cast-times-on-ultimates-should-not-go-live - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484920/cast-timed-ultimates-discussion - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492754/cast-time-utimates-need-to-go - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484238/cast-time-on-ultimates-feels-awful - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/500055/cast-times-so-when-are-they-bieng-removed-from-ultimates - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491990/remove-ultimate-cast-times-for-men-taller-than-173-centimeters - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/436792/cast-time-to-all-shields-not-just-specific-shields - neutral, asking for consistency.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/495644/cast-time-on-ultimates-worries-about-the-future-of-eso - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484572/cast-time-for-ultimates - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/501925/cast-time-on-ults - negative
Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.
Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"
No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.
I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."
When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!
Joy_Division wrote: »Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.
We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative
.... a list of links cut for space ...
Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.
Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"
No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.
I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."
When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!
you list a long lengthy list of links that exist on this forum, and you use that as a basis for the false belief that this is the entire eso community speaking when infact, it is only the same small group of people creating the same threads, over, and over, and over, again and again for the past 6 months.
However what was not included in the comment was that this is against the forum rules in that those are both ongoing petition threads of the same topic.
not only are those threads considered Spam but they are also petition threads, which again Both are against the forum rules as no petition threads are allowed on this forum.
in addition to that, those threads include answers in them repeatedly telling the reason Why the cast times were put on ultimates, including a link showing the developers comments and reasoning's why the cast times now exist.
which bears being repeated here to show relevance.
Quote:
Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much. You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore. They are just too powerful.
End Quote:
source:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/p1
no one wants to die instantly in pvp, the developers decided to not allow players to kill others instantly with no counterplay
and we all agree with them even if only a few on this forum spam these same threads over and over these facts still remain.
people would go in stealth, sneak up behind other players and kill them instantly because the ability to cast Multiple damage skills including an ultimate would instantly kill 90% of players in pvp, they never had a chance to defend themselves, they never had a chance to even know they were in a fight, nothing, just death of their character, instantly.
the developers agreed with the community that this was very annoying and they fixed the problem.
i hope they keep this change and i know for a fact the community agrees with their decision, not just me.
you also mentioned about not being able to ask everyone in the community what they want and that is also simply not true.
if there was an email sent directly to all of the eso @accounts, and asked them directly if they want or do not want anything, not just ultimates cast times but anything in eso that would be the only true and accurate way to find out the actual numbers of who wants or does not want certain things in eso.
yes at times we do see them mention they made or did not make a change based on what we asked for from multiple sources, but that did not come from spam nor petition threads, it seems to be based on when a large amount of people requesting the same thing, but that is not the case here on the cast time ultimates.
i would put forward that in the T.O.S. at no time do i recall reading that eso is based on the wants and desires of the people playing, nor even the developers themselves, it looks as if based on a group of private individuals that make the decisions for eso and to my knowledge that is where it ends, and i hope that never changes.
no one wants to die instantly in pvp, the developers decided to not allow players to kill others instantly with no counterplay
and we all agree with them even if only a few on this forum spam these same threads over and over these facts still remain.