A vast majority of players are asking to remove cast times

Nerftheforums

You say you started listening yo your player base after 5 years. Why won't you listen on basic stuff like NOT (NOT, i repeat, NOT) make combat clunkier? If so many people are asking to remove them, why the hell are you adding them to even more skills? Gosh we can't even ani cancel properly on pts! What the hell are doing guys?
Idk if you lost it in the process, but the goal here is to have people have more fun and improve the game so you get more money. Radically changing a 5yo product that people got so used to, will obtain the exact opposite.
See you in update 26, hopefully...

jcm2606

Their goal is not to listen to the playerbase, but to listen to those who'd rather throw a tantrum to get them to nerf whatever kills them. There's a very big difference.

Nerftheforums

I honestly think they listen to who generate revenue for them, and I can't believe they are ignoring such a core problem of the current combat mechanics just to attract some new players. I hope their retention numbers are high enough to justify the loss of the ogs..

Fur_like_snow

Well if someone is running around Cyrodiil with 350 ping you’d never notice cast times. But let’s say you have a strong connection while playing a medium armor high precision build that requires a proper flawless rotation to execute you’d see how cast times effect the gameplay.

I’ve yet to see an in game example of how this change helps new players.

mikemacon

Common mistake.

Equating “listening to” with “acquiescing to”.

The devs absolutely listen.

They also do not agree, and so do not implement.

MellowMagic

Yeah I cant stand cast times. My friend was a big wow player and when classic wow came out he demanded I play with him I tried it out for awhile but I just couldnt get over casting times. I want my *** to happen the instant I select it.

React

Cast times on ults are bad, they need to go.

MentalxHammer

Remove cast times, no one likes them. The noobs will still stand still even with the 0.4 second cast time.

Alienoutlaw

by vast you mean those who shout the loudest, i see the same names calling for nerfs all the time on these forums, cast times are fine learn to adapt your rotation, improve you situational awareness, delay your tower hugging groups ult dump for an extra 700ms

idk

While I am not a fan of the cast times that have been added I have to ask how OP quantifies a vast majority of players? I am pretty certain none of us can gleam into the minds of a majority of the player base and people make comments of such measurements either based on comments of a very small portion of the player base or suggest such things in order to inflate their opinion in a manner Zos can probably see through.

All I am suggesting is make a reasonable well worded argument vs inflating it with suggestions Zos knows we have no way of knowing.

Octopuss

Nerftheforums wrote: »

we can't even ani cancel properly

This shouldn't even exist in the first place. I am perplexed why didn't ZOS fix this bug years ago instead of proclaiming it a feature.

Also, stop speaking for others, you don't even seem to realize what "vast majority" means.

jcm2606

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Well if someone is running around Cyrodiil with 350 ping you’d never notice cast times. But let’s say you have a strong connection while playing a medium armor high precision build that requires a proper flawless rotation to execute you’d see how cast times effect the gameplay.

I’ve yet to see an in game example of how this change helps new players.

Other way round, actually. Higher ping only worsens the issues that cast times cause, because the game can't perform the skill through the cast time smoothly. It's why, even with the reduced cast time, Dizzy was just as impossible to land for me, an Aussie, as it was before they reduced it.

jcm2606

Octopuss wrote: »

"Nerftheforums wrote: »

"we can't even ani cancel properly

This shouldn't even exist in the first place. I am perplexed why didn't ZOS fix this bug years ago instead of proclaiming it a feature.

Also, stop speaking for others, you don't even seem to realize what "vast majority" means.

Because they literally can't without fundamentally redesigning combat as a whole. Animation cancelling is there to allow you to block, dodge, interrupt, or otherwise defend yourself against incoming attacks reliably, no matter what you were previously doing. Remove it, and I can guarantee you'll start dying to things that never gave you a hard time.

pieratsos

Octopuss wrote: »

This shouldn't even exist in the first place. I am perplexed why didn't ZOS fix this bug years ago instead of proclaiming it a feature.

Also, stop speaking for others, you don't even seem to realize what "vast majority" means.

Most definitely not the potatoes who still call animation canceling a bug and label everything animation canceling related as cheating even tho they have no clue what animation canceling is and how it works.

olsborg

Cast time just ruined alot of the fun in pvp combat for me, sadly. Im hoping they revert it one day.

pieratsos

idk wrote: »

While I am not a fan of the cast times that have been added I have to ask how OP quantifies a vast majority of players? I am pretty certain none of us can gleam into the minds of a majority of the player base and people make comments of such measurements either based on comments of a very small portion of the player base or suggest such things in order to inflate their opinion in a manner Zos can probably see through.

All I am suggesting is make a reasonable well worded argument vs inflating it with suggestions Zos knows we have no way of knowing.

(snip) The term vast majority is used to emphasize the actual point of the argument. In this case, that cast times need to go. Not to quantify the amount of players that support that argument.

(edited for baiting)

Octopuss

pieratsos wrote: »

Octopuss wrote: »

This shouldn't even exist in the first place. I am perplexed why didn't ZOS fix this bug years ago instead of proclaiming it a feature.

Also, stop speaking for others, you don't even seem to realize what "vast majority" means.

Most definitely not the potatoes who still call animation canceling a bug and label everything animation canceling related as cheating even tho they have no clue what animation canceling is and how it works.

Please enlighten me on the reason why animations exist in the first place when you can cancel them.
Also, why potatoes? That's an insult, right? Too bad noone understand what the heck does it mean.

Alienoutlaw

pieratsos wrote: »

idk wrote: »

While I am not a fan of the cast times that have been added I have to ask how OP quantifies a vast majority of players? I am pretty certain none of us can gleam into the minds of a majority of the player base and people make comments of such measurements either based on comments of a very small portion of the player base or suggest such things in order to inflate their opinion in a manner Zos can probably see through.

All I am suggesting is make a reasonable well worded argument vs inflating it with suggestions Zos knows we have no way of knowing.

You keep raising the same argument in every thread but you are completely missing the point in pretty much every single thread. The term vast majority is used to emphasize the actual point of the argument. In this case, that cast times need to go. Not to quantify the amount of players that support that argument.

i think the point being made is that the term "vast majority" is being miss used. by using this term it is in fact quantifying an amount of players

jcm2606

Octopuss wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Octopuss wrote: »

This shouldn't even exist in the first place. I am perplexed why didn't ZOS fix this bug years ago instead of proclaiming it a feature.

Also, stop speaking for others, you don't even seem to realize what "vast majority" means.

Most definitely not the potatoes who still call animation canceling a bug and label everything animation canceling related as cheating even tho they have no clue what animation canceling is and how it works.

Please enlighten me on the reason why animations exist in the first place when you can cancel them.
Also, why potatoes? That's an insult, right? Too bad noone understand what the heck does it mean.

Because looking at a character T-posing the entire time would get quite old very quickly, wouldn't it?

You realise literally every game with an active combat system has animation cancelling of some kind, right? It's the backbone of a responsive combat system, being able to cancel what you're doing so that you can react to incoming attacks as quickly as possible.

Again, remove it, and I can guarantee you'll start dying to *** you never had any trouble with.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

jcm2606 wrote: »

Octopuss wrote: »

"Nerftheforums wrote: »

"we can't even ani cancel properly

This shouldn't even exist in the first place. I am perplexed why didn't ZOS fix this bug years ago instead of proclaiming it a feature.

Also, stop speaking for others, you don't even seem to realize what "vast majority" means.

Because they literally can't without fundamentally redesigning combat as a whole. Animation cancelling is there to allow you to block, dodge, interrupt, or otherwise defend yourself against incoming attacks reliably, no matter what you were previously doing. Remove it, and I can guarantee you'll start dying to things that never gave you a hard time.

It should evolve into skill canceling
If you cancel your fireball it should not under any circumstance hurt the ennemy

Rianai

Octopuss wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Octopuss wrote: »

This shouldn't even exist in the first place. I am perplexed why didn't ZOS fix this bug years ago instead of proclaiming it a feature.

Also, stop speaking for others, you don't even seem to realize what "vast majority" means.

Most definitely not the potatoes who still call animation canceling a bug and label everything animation canceling related as cheating even tho they have no clue what animation canceling is and how it works.

Please enlighten me on the reason why animations exist in the first place when you can cancel them.
Also, why potatoes? That's an insult, right? Too bad noone understand what the heck does it mean.

Animation canceling does not remove animations, so animation canceling does not make animations useless.

(There have been a few cases of completely invisible animations caused by canceling, but those got fixed)

Araviel2

I quite like cast times IF the abilities that accompanies them are powerful.
Its something I think goes into the "risk vs reward" category of game-play.
And Im pretty sad that this type of game is disappearing from games today in order to cater to casuals.

Joy_Division

Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.

We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/488917/cast-times-on-ultimates ... "are simply horrible" - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484409/cast-times-on-ultimates-should-not-go-live - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484920/cast-timed-ultimates-discussion - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492754/cast-time-utimates-need-to-go - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484238/cast-time-on-ultimates-feels-awful - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/500055/cast-times-so-when-are-they-bieng-removed-from-ultimates - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491990/remove-ultimate-cast-times-for-men-taller-than-173-centimeters - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/436792/cast-time-to-all-shields-not-just-specific-shields - neutral, asking for consistency.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/495644/cast-time-on-ultimates-worries-about-the-future-of-eso - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484572/cast-time-for-ultimates - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/501925/cast-time-on-ults - negative

Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.

Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"

No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.

I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."

When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!

mav1234

Cast times are awful and not fun. I am on the fence on NO abilities should have cast times; I think they can be valuable, but they should be short and exist just to prevent repeated spamming of an ability in a short time frame, e.g. dizzying swing. Just adding cast times to everything does not make the game more fun.

It feels almost like the developers are wishing they could stop animation cancelling and the only way they know how is by gradually switching abilities to cast times.

killingspreeb16_ESO

Octopuss wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

we can't even ani cancel properly

This shouldn't even exist in the first place. I am perplexed why didn't ZOS fix this bug years ago instead of proclaiming it a feature.

Also, stop speaking for others, you don't even seem to realize what "vast majority" means.

Then it should have been fixed a long time ago not after 4/5 year and the combat system should have been updated.

The game evolved with AC in mind and most player are used to this type of gameplay which they love because is fluid and fun.

Try to play without animation cancel no weaving,no bash cancel,no roll cancel,bar swap and so on.

You will quickly find that the gameplay will be clunky slow and definitely not fun.

I guess some people don't even realize when they use animation cancel

Chelo

pieratsos wrote: »

idk wrote: »

While I am not a fan of the cast times that have been added I have to ask how OP quantifies a vast majority of players? I am pretty certain none of us can gleam into the minds of a majority of the player base and people make comments of such measurements either based on comments of a very small portion of the player base or suggest such things in order to inflate their opinion in a manner Zos can probably see through.

All I am suggesting is make a reasonable well worded argument vs inflating it with suggestions Zos knows we have no way of knowing.

You keep raising the same argument in every thread but you are completely missing the point in pretty much every single thread. The term vast majority is used to emphasize the actual point of the argument. In this case, that cast times need to go. Not to quantify the amount of players that support that argument.

By that logic, "the vast majority" could be just 1 guy looool hahahaha 🤣

ZombieMayhem

Vast majority = "Someone said it in zone chat and I decided it made sense."

Essentially what I'm hearing is:
"I'm not very good at something, so instead of learning and practicing like everyone else, I'm going to go hit up the forums and flap my yapper, so everyone will know that I refuse to learn. CHANGE THE WHOLE WORLD TO FIT ME OR YOU'RE JUST IN IT FOR THE MONEY!"

ZonasArch

Nerftheforums wrote: »

You say you started listening yo your player base after 5 years. Why won't you listen on basic stuff like NOT (NOT, i repeat, NOT) make combat clunkier? If so many people are asking to remove them, why the hell are you adding them to even more skills? Gosh we can't even ani cancel properly on pts! What the hell are doing guys?
Idk if you lost it in the process, but the goal here is to have people have more fun and improve the game so you get more money. Radically changing a 5yo product that people got so used to, will obtain the exact opposite.
See you in update 26, hopefully...

Even thout I want them gone too, you confused "majority of players" with majority of "forum dwellers". The majority of players, I promise you, don't even notice any difference with that 0.4s, and even more so, they probably don't even know that change happened.

Remember... The forums are mostly for people that really care, not the casual. And this game is for casuals... We, patch notes readers, are NOT the ones that matter for changes like that. And for the casuals... Well... That was a good change for them, even if they don't know why.

Sad? Yes. True? Also yes.

Nerftheforums

I honestly think they listen to who generate revenue for them, and I can't believe they are ignoring such a core problem of the current combat mechanics just to attract some new players. I hope their retention numbers are high enough to justify the loss of the ogs..

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just because we can't exactly measure what every single ESO player thinking on this issue does not mean we throw our hands in the air and proclaim that there is no way to measure public opinion.

We could do a search on cast times and see what comes out. Here are the first two pages:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508920/please-remove-cast-times-of-ultimates - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491407/cast-time-on-ultimates-is-garbage - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/488917/cast-times-on-ultimates ... "are simply horrible" - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484409/cast-times-on-ultimates-should-not-go-live - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484920/cast-timed-ultimates-discussion - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492754/cast-time-utimates-need-to-go - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484238/cast-time-on-ultimates-feels-awful - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/500055/cast-times-so-when-are-they-bieng-removed-from-ultimates - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/491990/remove-ultimate-cast-times-for-men-taller-than-173-centimeters - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/436792/cast-time-to-all-shields-not-just-specific-shields - neutral, asking for consistency.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/495644/cast-time-on-ultimates-worries-about-the-future-of-eso - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484572/cast-time-for-ultimates - negative

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/501925/cast-time-on-ults - negative

Don't need a advanced degree in public relations to see a trend here.

Now, people love to sprout out, "But, but, that's just a small percentage of the community! You still can't prove what the majority of the people think!"

No, I can't. This is just circular "logic" to get us back to the point where we just throw our hands in the air because we can't ask every single person. People who abide by this "logic" should delete their forum account, never participate in a public survey, and just burn every book and study ever that endeavored to assess public opinion because they place zero value in them and will never accept their outcome (unless, I am guessing, the outcome matches what they want to hear.) Seriously, if people are going to disregard forum feedback as a legitimate measure of public opinion, why do they offer their opinion on these forums and expect me to value it as representative? Either these forums are indicators of public opinion or they are not.

I mained a class once full of cast-times (templars) and because people associated me with them, they'd tell, ask, and beg me to get ZoS to get rid of them. Of the dozens and dozens of templars who gave me feedback, *not one* said, "Hey Joy, I know a lot of folks on the forums hate cast times, but I've got to say they add an interesting element to the game and I kind of like them."

When I sat in Rep meetings the amount of disconnect on this issue was alarming. I still remember one meeting when we were discussing sorcerer's (bad) resource management and the devs asking us point blank why sorcerers did not use their Dark Exchange skill in their rotations if they needed resources. If you have to ask why players aren't using a skill, that should be a pretty obvious indicator that the players either don't like it or it's sub-optimal choice!

Amazing answer, couldn't have done better. Can't wait to see the ooga booga answer this comment will receive.

Chelo

ZonasArch wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

You say you started listening yo your player base after 5 years. Why won't you listen on basic stuff like NOT (NOT, i repeat, NOT) make combat clunkier? If so many people are asking to remove them, why the hell are you adding them to even more skills? Gosh we can't even ani cancel properly on pts! What the hell are doing guys?
Idk if you lost it in the process, but the goal here is to have people have more fun and improve the game so you get more money. Radically changing a 5yo product that people got so used to, will obtain the exact opposite.
See you in update 26, hopefully...

Even thout I want them gone too, you confused "majority of players" with majority of "forum dwellers". The majority of players, I promise you, don't even notice any difference with that 0.4s, and even more so, they probably don't even know that change happened.

Remember... The forums are mostly for people that really care, not the casual. And this game is for casuals... We, patch notes readers, are NOT the ones that matter for changes like that. And for the casuals... Well... That was a good change for them, even if they don't know why.

Sad? Yes. True? Also yes.

This is my most successful MMO as a PvPer from all the other MMOs I've played from the last 15-20 years hahahaha

And the main reason for that is because this MMO is one of the most causals MMOs of all time hahaha sad but true...

Killing people here feels like been an adult fighting children 🤣 basically if you are a veteran MMO player, it's super easy to kill MMO beginners here...

Veinblood1965

I don't PVP but don't see the benefit for anyone by adding cast times even in PVE. Has ZoS released anything on why they made the change? I can't imagine there were any threads about anyone actually wanting cast times added.

BTW I agree with the OP, changing too much and making things clunkier IMO will cause people to just delete the game. I played WoW for many years and finally hit the last straw when they revamped the hunter class overnight, deleted the game, threw all my game discs in the trash and never came back. I quit ESO mid year last year due to some of the changes but just waited it out. If this starts again I'm gone, delete and trash it is, and you all can yes have my stuff.