A vast majority of players are asking to remove cast times

iJuacob

Shaggygaming wrote: »

WOW has the best end game raiding still to this day and there’s no animation cancelling. ZOS needs to redesign their whole combat system so they can better design end game trials. The majority of people complaining are those who strive for end game PvP and PvE and both end games are trash.

But this is not wow [snip], elderscrolls is all about play as you want. Eso actually was made and brought up for mainly pvp so.

Don't [snip] because you can't animation cancel and still can't do stuff, learn to play the game instead of asking for these kind of absurd things.

Minor edit for bait.

Sanguinor2

Quoted post has been removed.

There actually were no Trials on release. They only got added with craglorn, launch Trailer was an alliance war Trailer and campaigns could hold much more People than now and were still full (also with more campaigns than exist now). While it wasnt solely made for pvp pvp was the endgame at the start.

Xvorg

Eraldus wrote: »

The very fact this topic has "vast majority of players" in is title is already a massive huge red flag for devs to not even take this topic seriously, because they know the OP has no actual valid data to back up his claim, lmao!

And linking a few threads related to the same topic hardly counts as anything meaningful (one of the topics had a whooping 75 agrees! OH WOW! THAT'S THE ENTIRE ESO PLAYERBASE, RIGHT GUYS??), because we all know that main reason people post in this board, is to complain about anything, so they'll just flock into whatever topic with negativity they see and make it look like there's a "vast majority of players" that wants something removed/added to the game.

Well, when people like you will realize that the vast majority agreed with the fact that cast time on skills are bad... it will be too late for this game.

ZoS is cornering his most loyal player base into stay playing a game that's no longer fun to play, or leave... and leaving at this point seems like the right option

Anotherone773

iJuacob wrote: »

Shaggygaming wrote: »

WOW has the best end game raiding still to this day and there’s no animation cancelling. ZOS needs to redesign their whole combat system so they can better design end game trials. The majority of people complaining are those who strive for end game PvP and PvE and both end games are trash.

But this is not wow [snip], elderscrolls is all about play as you want. Eso actually was made and brought up for mainly pvp so.

Don't [snip] because you can't animation cancel and still can't do stuff, learn to play the game instead of asking for these kind of absurd things.

Minor edit for bait.

Except it isnt a pvp game. 95% of the content is PVE based and nearly as much of the explorable area is pve based. Even the PVP zones are full of PVE. PVP in ESO is nothing more than an after thought so ZOS can say " we have that too!" just like housing, fishing, group finder, etc.

ESO is an interactive story with "perks"

Drdeath20

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Certain skills should have cast times when its merited.

Which is never.

So a hard hitting ranged ability that defiles its opponent should not have a cast time?

Arrodisia

Please, for goodness sake, don't implement cast times for ultimates. Combat is already too clunky for such a simple system of only 12 abilities in total. If you want to generate money by making the player base happy, fix the laggy servers and bugs. Please, put the nerf hatchet away this patch. Instead, do some minor buffing and fixes on underperforming and poorly animated class and weapon skills. Then and only then will the players be happy.

Btw, the crown store would be way more appealing, and if the game performed well and if so many of the items weren't so darn ugly. There are so few outfits, homes, mounts, and pets that actually look nice. Larger homes have way too little slots in them. Also, the crown store should be more in the background. Make the little icon a little bigger or shinier but get rid of the huge panel every time we log on. Showing it once, for the first log on per day, is already more than enough. Having an option to suppress it would be nice too.

Best Regards and have fun all

Ragnaroek93

Cast times on ultimates, the meme continues...

Lucky28

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

by vast you mean those who shout the loudest, i see the same names calling for nerfs all the time on these forums, cast times are fine learn to adapt your rotation, improve you situational awareness, delay your tower hugging groups ult dump for an extra 700ms

No they're not. there is a reason people play this game over WoW or others. fast combat is one of them, it doesn't help that they decided to tack cast times on NB's who are supposed to be 'fast' it's counter intuitive.

makes combat clunky, half the time my ult doesn't even go off even tho the full animation plays. it's objectively a bad change that caused more problems than it could have ever hoped to fix.

Qbiken

As someone mentioned earlier regarding Sypher, who's been away from the game for quite some time, I remember his initial reaction when he realised some ultimates had cast times. Even though ZOS payed him a hefty amount to promote their game, it was quite obvious what his thoughts about cast times were (hint = they were not positive)

holden_caulfield

Nerftheforums wrote: »

You say you started listening yo your player base after 5 years. Why won't you listen on basic stuff like NOT (NOT, i repeat, NOT) make combat clunkier? If so many people are asking to remove them, why the hell are you adding them to even more skills? Gosh we can't even ani cancel properly on pts! What the hell are doing guys?
Idk if you lost it in the process, but the goal here is to have people have more fun and improve the game so you get more money. Radically changing a 5yo product that people got so used to, will obtain the exact opposite.
See you in update 26, hopefully...

I dont know why wo casting times the game woyuld be better. In my understanding everything is subjects to 1s GCD. If so the rhythm of your rotation is deterrmined by this Gcd nothing else. But I may be waaay wrong here.

Anyway can I see your data that proves your 'vast majority' statement?

Nerftheforums

holden_caulfield wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

You say you started listening yo your player base after 5 years. Why won't you listen on basic stuff like NOT (NOT, i repeat, NOT) make combat clunkier? If so many people are asking to remove them, why the hell are you adding them to even more skills? Gosh we can't even ani cancel properly on pts! What the hell are doing guys?
Idk if you lost it in the process, but the goal here is to have people have more fun and improve the game so you get more money. Radically changing a 5yo product that people got so used to, will obtain the exact opposite.
See you in update 26, hopefully...

I dont know why wo casting times the game woyuld be better. In my understanding everything is subjects to 1s GCD. If so the rhythm of your rotation is deterrmined by this Gcd nothing else. But I may be waaay wrong here.

Anyway can I see your data that proves your 'vast majority' statement?

Your understanding is not correct, I am kinda surprised. Are you new?
Anyhow, yes, skills can be casted every GCD, but the block and bash canceling that follows it does not respect this rule. The rhythm of your rotation is determined by both gcds and canceling. In pvp, it's mostly determined by canceling, especially on squishy classes who need to get in, deal damage fast, and get out. Cast times remove the possibility to cancel ult almost completely and makes combat uber clunky.

I will post the info tonight, hoping I remeber.

wastelandexplorer1

I disagree and agree at the same time I understand why the6 added cast times but at the same time it’s too long cast time on soul harvest for example should be .3 seconds cuz adding the global cooldown that’s still.4 seconds to react right now they are just way too long

holden_caulfield

Ok maybe now i understand. The problem with skills with casting time is that they cant be cancelled by either block or bash ( and i suppose also Dodge roll and weapon switch) leaving de facto the player open to every attack against him.

Is this the problem at hand?

Nerftheforums

holden_caulfield wrote: »

Ok maybe now i understand. The problem with skills with casting time is that they cant be cancelled by either block or bash ( and i suppose also Dodge roll and weapon switch) leaving de facto the player open to every attack against him.

Is this the problem at hand?

Basically. The problem tho isn't the fact that the player is left open to attacks, but that the combat is slow down considerably for anyone who plays at an average level or higher (canceling is pretty much fundamental to not perform badly tbh).

holden_caulfield

Nerftheforums wrote: »

holden_caulfield wrote: »

Ok maybe now i understand. The problem with skills with casting time is that they cant be cancelled by either block or bash ( and i suppose also Dodge roll and weapon switch) leaving de facto the player open to every attack against him.

Is this the problem at hand?

Basically. The problem tho isn't the fact that the player is left open to attacks, but that the combat is slow down considerably for anyone who plays at an average level or higher (canceling is pretty much fundamental to not perform badly tbh).

That I dont understand.
Whatever u do u Can only squeeze 1la 1skill 1bash or block in every given second.
If the casting time of the skill is lower of 1s the same apply.
Im an healer so maybe I dont know every aspect.
Can someone explain to me why wo casting time the combat would be faster?

Nerftheforums

holden_caulfield wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

holden_caulfield wrote: »

Ok maybe now i understand. The problem with skills with casting time is that they cant be cancelled by either block or bash ( and i suppose also Dodge roll and weapon switch) leaving de facto the player open to every attack against him.

Is this the problem at hand?

Basically. The problem tho isn't the fact that the player is left open to attacks, but that the combat is slow down considerably for anyone who plays at an average level or higher (canceling is pretty much fundamental to not perform badly tbh).

That I dont understand.
Whatever u do u Can only squeeze 1la 1skill 1bash or block in every given second.
If the casting time of the skill is lower of 1s the same apply.
Im an healer so maybe I dont know every aspect.
Can someone explain to me why wo casting time the combat would be faster?

Try do light attack, ult, bash/block. You'll see that bash/block will prevent the ultimate to fire off.

holden_caulfield

Nerftheforums wrote: »

holden_caulfield wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

holden_caulfield wrote: »

Ok maybe now i understand. The problem with skills with casting time is that they cant be cancelled by either block or bash ( and i suppose also Dodge roll and weapon switch) leaving de facto the player open to every attack against him.

Is this the problem at hand?

Basically. The problem tho isn't the fact that the player is left open to attacks, but that the combat is slow down considerably for anyone who plays at an average level or higher (canceling is pretty much fundamental to not perform badly tbh).

That I dont understand.
Whatever u do u Can only squeeze 1la 1skill 1bash or block in every given second.
If the casting time of the skill is lower of 1s the same apply.
Im an healer so maybe I dont know every aspect.
Can someone explain to me why wo casting time the combat would be faster?

Try do light attack, ult, bash/block. You'll see that bash/block will prevent the ultimate to fire off.

Oh ok. Ultimates are the problem. Then I am all for uniformity. U have my vote for what is worth

azjuwelz

I don't like cast times on ultimates either. It really does wreck the flow. On console it's hard enough already to trigger an ultimate.

Alchimiste1

Cast times and unnecessary delays needs to go. Leap is getting a cast time because they feel overperforming but in reality its that other ults are underperforming. Take away the cast time from incap/soul harvest/tether and DB and the gap between them will close.
Also, give clench back its stun, and give magnecro a stun that's actually viable since they will have none next patch.
People need to feel they are punished when they make mistakes and rn you have what seems like a large amount of time to get right back to full health. Which is one of the reasons everyone feels like a tank

Starlock

WARNING - UNPOPULAR COMMENT FOLLOWS

If nobody had told me certain ultimates got a cast time, I wouldn't even know it had happened. Even knowing it has happened, the characters I have who have some cast time ultimates are... working exactly the same as they did before. I'm not noticing any difference. Which means the impact this has on my gameplay is somewhere around zero.

Granted, some of this is likely because there is often a half second lag between when I do anything in this game and stuff happens on the screen anyway. There's nothing to notice because it's business as usual. But even if this game was super smooth, I doubt I could find myself caring about not even a half second delay. I'm just not that twitchy.

Alchimiste1

Starlock wrote: »

WARNING - UNPOPULAR COMMENT FOLLOWS

If nobody had told me certain ultimates got a cast time, I wouldn't even know it had happened. Even knowing it has happened, the characters I have who have some cast time ultimates are... working exactly the same as they did before. I'm not noticing any difference. Which means the impact this has on my gameplay is somewhere around zero.

Granted, some of this is likely because there is often a half second lag between when I do anything in this game and stuff happens on the screen anyway. There's nothing to notice because it's business as usual. But even if this game was super smooth, I doubt I could find myself caring about not even a half second delay. I'm just not that twitchy.

No they are not working anything like they were before. Cast times are detrimental to nightblade. Imagine playing a class that suppose to focus on burst and has no real dots(given that cripple, poison injection, and Degen all do miniscule damage now) and then telling them that all their burst cast cast times or delays. Try landing an incap into a bow combo on anyone even with a fear in between. you can cc break fear and roll dodge the bow proc intime. you can heal/block/roll the incap and then you can heal/bloc/roll the bow. what burst ?

Xvorg

Starlock wrote: »

WARNING - UNPOPULAR COMMENT FOLLOWS

If nobody had told me certain ultimates got a cast time, I wouldn't even know it had happened. Even knowing it has happened, the characters I have who have some cast time ultimates are... working exactly the same as they did before. I'm not noticing any difference. Which means the impact this has on my gameplay is somewhere around zero.

Granted, some of this is likely because there is often a half second lag between when I do anything in this game and stuff happens on the screen anyway. There's nothing to notice because it's business as usual. But even if this game was super smooth, I doubt I could find myself caring about not even a half second delay. I'm just not that twitchy.

What ultis are you using?

Alchimiste1

I need to proofread my comments, well I'm sure people will understand my points

exeeter702

Nerftheforums wrote: »

holden_caulfield wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

You say you started listening yo your player base after 5 years. Why won't you listen on basic stuff like NOT (NOT, i repeat, NOT) make combat clunkier? If so many people are asking to remove them, why the hell are you adding them to even more skills? Gosh we can't even ani cancel properly on pts! What the hell are doing guys?
Idk if you lost it in the process, but the goal here is to have people have more fun and improve the game so you get more money. Radically changing a 5yo product that people got so used to, will obtain the exact opposite.
See you in update 26, hopefully...

I dont know why wo casting times the game woyuld be better. In my understanding everything is subjects to 1s GCD. If so the rhythm of your rotation is deterrmined by this Gcd nothing else. But I may be waaay wrong here.

Anyway can I see your data that proves your 'vast majority' statement?

Your understanding is not correct, I am kinda surprised. Are you new?
Anyhow, yes, skills can be casted every GCD, but the block and bash canceling that follows it does not respect this rule. The rhythm of your rotation is determined by both gcds and canceling. In pvp, it's mostly determined by canceling, especially on squishy classes who need to get in, deal damage fast, and get out. Cast times remove the possibility to cancel ult almost completely and makes combat uber clunky.

I will post the info tonight, hoping I remeber.

Actually you are also a bit confused. The cast time on ults is .4 seconds which is exactly half way into the GCD refresh and the cast time ends right when you reach that .5 second buffer (there is a .5 second ability queue buffer in eso). Block canceling the recovery animations of instant cast ultimates amounts to nothing on the system side, and it fundamentally never has. Instant cast abilities, ultimates included, always resolved instantly server side regardless of the animation you saw client side.

Block canceling for the sake of canceling a superfluous recovery animation that animates during the GCD refresh only ever serves to potentially stunt your stamina regen and does nothing for ability use frequency or gaining any type of control of your character sooner than someone that doesnt.

Now...if you know you are on the receiving end of damage from another source ie a warden throwing birds at you while you are distracted with your primary target, then yes, ideally you want to keep block up as much as possible, doing this will passively result in cutting off the recovery animation of every instant cast skill.

It's for this reason that the ult cast times suck - you are more vulnerable than before in situations where you are outnumbered and would otherwise be able to outplay the odds, of which ultimates always were the key to helping you achieve that. But zos as they traditionally do, tend to balance the game around groups. There reasons here that isntant cast ults were too oppressive in a group environment where someone on the recieving end of multiple isntant cast abilites from x amount of players, having one of those instant cast skills that hit you be an ultimate,l was too much in their eyes which is wack.

Coppes

I think people in this thread are throwing out clunky baselessly. If you think ESO combat is clunky (even with cast times) you haven’t seen clunky combat.

Coppes

exeeter702 wrote: »

It's for this reason that the ult cast times suck - you are more vulnerable than before in situations where you are outnumbered and would otherwise be able to outplay the odds, of which ultimates always were the key to helping you achieve that.

That’s the risk/reward. You expose yourself for a few moments to deal massive damage, in turn, the enemy can commit a sort of riposte against you.

There’s no feeling of that when you can just roll dodge or shield halfway through the animation.

Lucky28

Spaceroamer wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

It's for this reason that the ult cast times suck - you are more vulnerable than before in situations where you are outnumbered and would otherwise be able to outplay the odds, of which ultimates always were the key to helping you achieve that.

That’s the risk/reward. You expose yourself for a few moments to deal massive damage, in turn, the enemy can commit a sort of riposte against you.

There’s no feeling of that when you can just roll dodge or shield halfway through the animation.

or you could argue that the risk/reward for stacking your ass inside a massive zerg is maybe someone will pick you off because you never l2ped. i like that interpretation better. seriously, the main PvP aspect of ESO in Cyrodiil not 1v1 fights it's a terrible mistake to balance it like that.

Coppes

Lucky28 wrote: »

Spaceroamer wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

It's for this reason that the ult cast times suck - you are more vulnerable than before in situations where you are outnumbered and would otherwise be able to outplay the odds, of which ultimates always were the key to helping you achieve that.

That’s the risk/reward. You expose yourself for a few moments to deal massive damage, in turn, the enemy can commit a sort of riposte against you.

There’s no feeling of that when you can just roll dodge or shield halfway through the animation.

or you could argue that the risk/reward for stacking your ass inside a massive zerg is maybe someone will pick you off because you never l2ped. i like that interpretation better. seriously, the main PvP aspect of ESO in Cyrodiil not 1v1 fights it's a terrible mistake to balance it like that.

I’m not talking about 1v1s, Im talking about in general.

IAVITNI

Joy_Division wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

React from prediction isn't reacting it's predicting and "knowing the game" is now required to anticipate every specs combos?

So barrier of entry to PvP is you must memorize the combos of every possible burst, how they line up that burst and recognize that before they begin since as you all have stated a potato isnt getting out of the burst window if its lines up already.

Good luck selling that to a developer who wants to lower the ceiling and raise the floor.

Just because you put in 4+ years of practice in something doesnt make that the best way to do it.

I personally dont care either way although I've been poked in this thread like im advocating something.

If they change things i will adapt or i will stop playing. It's not that big of a deal in the end.

Every spec combo? Nothing so dramatic.

The reality of this game since 2015 is that if your character is under 50% health, you're in danger of dying in a single global cooldown to an opponent that knows what they are doing. It's less about predicting exactly what is coming and more about taking a defensive posture and trying to limit the numerous ways you can die in that single global cooldown. I will dodge-roll, vamp mist, block cast a heal/shield, stun, do something such that my opponent is incapable of killing me in that one global cooldown. This does not require physic abilities or 4 years of PvP experience. Most people who are moderately self-reflexive figure this out pretty quickly when they PvP in just about any format aside from Stack on Crown.

Most games I have played do not require my opponent to play with their cards face down on the table so I know exactly what their next move will be. I'm not sure why all of a sudden this is some prerequisite for strategy or fantasy games to be "fair." The original Dawnbreaker had a cast-time and ZOS got rid of it because it was terrible. Now all of a sudden it needs one? This isn't vision, it isn't direction, it's just indecision and trying to appease complaints, many of them based on ignorance by people who think macros and animation canceling allow players to override the global cooldown in the game.

What the "lower the ceiling, raise the floor" crowd does not understand is that changes do not effect players equally. Whenever ZOS does something to make it more difficult to kill and easier to survive, the more experienced and skilled players are going to be able to take advantage of them more than the potatoes. A potato would be better served with an instant cast dawnbreaker because the only way their going to beat a better player is by a lucky combo and that's much more likely to happen by restricting the time and ability the better player has to avoid that Dawnbreaker. The end result of all this lower the floor "logic" is to make it such that we're right back to where we were pre-Morrowind, when ZOS was flooded with complaints about players who are unkillable who can shrug off a dozen potatoes hacking away at them. How is this direction? Now the dozen potatoes are spamming overnerfed offensive abilities and ultimates that are easier to avoid, and walk away feeling the player must have Cheat Engine installed.

Spaceroamer wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

It's for this reason that the ult cast times suck - you are more vulnerable than before in situations where you are outnumbered and would otherwise be able to outplay the odds, of which ultimates always were the key to helping you achieve that.

That’s the risk/reward. You expose yourself for a few moments to deal massive damage, in turn, the enemy can commit a sort of riposte against you.

There’s no feeling of that when you can just roll dodge or shield halfway through the animation.

The argument here is that there is no risk for good players and no reward for bad players. Good players will still close the better strategic reaction because 1. those good players already knew the ultimate was coming anyways and 2. on top of knowing burst is coming they now have time to get up, discuss possible reactions with their friends, come back and react in that cast time. /hyperbole

If you don't feel cast time changes (not you specifically, just in general) you simply were not at the minimum skill level to do so, and not to sound elitist, but shouldn't be arguing considering you lack the necessary knowledge.

As a mag sorc main cast times barely affect me since we have no ultimate affected by this anyways. But hearing from my friends and having played other classes both before and after cast times, the difference in combat is staggering. It went from "I have to be careful because there is an ultimate coming" to "oh look an ultimate, let me block".

Arguably, for myself and players better than me, cast times do not add any "risk". I still know the difference between a good offensive window and a bad one. All the cast time does is slow down combat and make fights between good players longer, when for reference they would already last upwards of 10 minutes pre cast times.

For the players that get "x'd" on, I can still beat them 1v1 and 1vx. It just takes longer (though bulk of that is due to something separate from cast times). In fact, cast times work in my favour because I have more time to react to the x-able player ultimates. There is no change for those x-able players because if they can't anticipate an ultimate then they aren't going to react in the additional 0.4 seconds because it is pure reactionary.

People are acting like a cast time makes it easier to react but nobody is going to react in 0.4 seconds. All it does is benefit players that anticipate ultimates. Except its the good players that anticipate the ultimates and not the x-ables. So the x-ables aren't going to notice any change because it doesn't affect their gameplay defensively and is actually detrimental to their offensive gameplay.

So if a change like cast times doesn't affect gameplay on one end and negatively impacts gameplay on another, the only reason to argue against reverting the change is ignorance or masochism.

The real complain isn't that it makes combos impossible to land or even harder. The complaint is that it makes everything slower.

If I wanted to play slow paced combat I would have invested more into Fallout and used VATS.

And for those who argue that ani-cancels don't belong in MMO's, that's just incorrect. Plenty of games actually balance around ani-cancels. ESO is a game that is favoured for its fast paced combat and ofc franchise history. Those 2 factors are what sells ESO in relation to other games such as WoW.

I don't play WoW precisely because of cast times. Most of the people I play with are of the same mind in both PvE and PvP. Nobody in either camp enjoys cast times because ESO is supposed to be fast paced, not bogged down by cast times

pieratsos

If they are so hell bend on holding people's hands through everything then just integrate old Miats in the game. Seriously it would be much better to just tell them that they are about to get incaped than screwing incap itself. That actually gives room for reaction without making combat clunky.

And the biggest of irony of all. It still won't change nothing for those potatoes. They will still get hit anyway cause the issue isn't that there is no time for reaction but simply that they need to l2p and holding their hand isn't going to change that.