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PTS Update 23 - Feedback Thread for Multi-Bidding

  • reoskit
    reoskit
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    To help ZOS see what their community is saying, I figured I’d consolidate some feedback.

    These quotes are extracted from only the first 5 pages of ~21 pages of feedback on multibidding.

    (Please don’t quote this post in its entirety or we may break the forums.)

    This Section: Impact to Small/Mid-tier Guilds:
    This will only help the biggest trading guilds out there to ensure a trader each week. What small or medium sized guild has tens or even hundreds of millions on their bank account, letting them bid on 10 locations at once?
    SirAndy wrote: »
    How is this going to help anyone except the large trading guilds?
    Gariele wrote: »
    All it does is empower big trade guilds to have a 99.9999% chance of getting a trader. Small guilds will suffer in the long run
    This only benefits guilds/alliances with a lot of gold. Where's the benefit for the smaller guilds?
    Starlock wrote: »
    Only the large multi-guild consortiums will have the funds to plop down multiple competitive bids.
    Tandor wrote: »
    So a restrictive trading system becomes an even more restrictive one, probably even an elitist one.
    reoskit wrote: »
    As one of the big guilds, I absolutely agree. This does nothing to help smaller guilds get a kiosk.
    My small guild cant afford this!
    Flaminir wrote: »
    This is undoubtedly an overall benefit for the top tier trading guilds, but even then I see the potential for disruptive market behaviour which many may not like.
    Rushinator wrote: »
    I 100% agree this is favors big guilds over small guilds and I say this as a GM of a large guild who'll be able to afford throwing out tons of gold if necessary.
    SirAndy wrote: »
    Again, those changes will only benefit the large trading guilds with deep pockets.
    Everyone else has already been pushed to the edge of the guild trader system, and this may very well push most of us mid/smaller sized guilds completely out of the system.
    [...]
    There simply isn't enough gold for us to maintain more than one bid that has any chance of actually winning.
    The very rich guilds will all bid against each other for the best spots and some of the lower tier spots for "back up" and the guilds in those tiers are just making ends meet to hold on to their own spot. They can't really afford to make a bunch of bids all over the place except maybe a few bids in much worse spots.
    This does nothing but further empower large established trading guilds, and screw everyone else in the process. It doesn't solve any of the problems I've seen people complain about, it just makes things worse. I'm worried about what this ultimately means for the future of trading for anyone not in one of these super-rich trading guilds.
    OsManiaC wrote: »
    the chance of new guilds? the chance of low-tier trading guilds? do they have money to bid on 10 spots? really?
    Fiktius wrote: »
    Now rich guilds which can afford for multiple bids will continue spreading their bids for increasing their chances to get a trader. Smaller guilds have to pray that bigger guilds actually do win their primary bids, because there's no need to be a Sherlock to guess where these bigger guilds will find their back up spot if bids on major cities are lost.
    Because there are going to be rich guilds who can afford to bid big on their first and second traders, and a "low" amount on out-of-the-way backups...and "low" is entirely relative. Or those out-of-the-way traders are going to be the 2nd or 3rd backup bids for the moderately wealthy guilds.

    So if your guild regularly uses out-of-the-way traders as your primary trader...the trader swaps have the potential to trickle down to that level much more than they did before.
    jainiadral wrote: »
    So much for accomodating new players and the rise in population :( This is going to drive more people out of trading and exclude a larger percentage of the player base.
    And this murders any chance of small guilds from getting spots........
    Vicinia wrote: »
    If this goes through, my heart goes out to mid/small trading guilds. Getting a capital city will be near impossible. I feel terrible for the new players/casual players who will be subjected to this nonsense.
    Eyllora wrote: »
    As member of big guilds, I totally agree with people who say that this system is very bad and unfair for small-medium guilds who don't have enough income to secure many bids.
    This just gives the biggest and richest guilds an even bigger hold on traders and does nothing to address the most fundamental issue in the trading system - there are far too few traders and a greatly increasing number of guilds trying to get them.

    It's not about getting a "good" spot for most guilds these days, apart from the exclusive few. It's about getting any spot at all.
    I wish. They had considered the repercussions of this change to smaller and newer guilds before they proposed it. [...] Unfortunately, the system change, they're proposing, seems to have more cons than pros. I'm not insulting ZOS or the dev team, but imho, they should look at some other solutions/suggestions, and opt for something more beneficial and stable for all.
    OsManiaC wrote: »
    I cannot fight against chain reaction losers of big fights
    Gariele wrote: »
    I run three Social Guilds with over 1300 active members and I get Traders for them. I never have requirements such as mins or donations. All this does is try to push GMs like me out of trading and get guilds in that bet everything for one week and then go broke cause they don’t understand how much Traders cost and return.
    All this does is crush the little guy.
    Neelanna48 wrote: »
    I run a medium sized guild. We have a trader almost every week. [...] I love running my guild even at times when it can be stressful and like to make sure all my members are catered for. I cant even begin to tell you how much my stress level has gone up this morning reading about this upcoming update.
  • reoskit
    reoskit
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    To help ZOS see what their community is saying, I figured I’d consolidate some feedback.

    These quotes are extracted from only the first 5 pages of ~21 pages of feedback on multibidding.

    (Please don’t quote this post in its entirety or we may break the forums.)

    This Section: Ramifications. The links point to longer lists; you’ll need to click to read.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6177956/#Comment_6177956

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6177921/#Comment_6177921

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6178026/#Comment_6178026
    Pevey wrote: »
    ZOS somehow managed to increase the level of stress for trade guild GMs higher than it already was. I would call that quite a feat, but I don’t think I would call it a quality of life update. Some GMs just won’t want to deal with it.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6178220/#Comment_6178220

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6178194/#Comment_6178194
    How the *** am I supposed to hold my tiny guild a trader each week if the price increases even more. It is hard as it is. I am telling it aint gonna work.

    Im a trader, 85% of the time ingame I trade. the other 15% I manage my guild. Ive done this since beta. Now ZOS has managed to destroy all of my occupations in the game within a month. Even if Guild History is somewhat back, but still not the same as before. More work now.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6178254/#Comment_6178254

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6178710/#Comment_6178710
    what you are going to do is create mega guilds with warring factions that will ultimately lock out new new guilds, new players, and cause a stagnate economy.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6178762/#Comment_6178762

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6178797/#Comment_6178797

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6178811/#Comment_6178811

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6179174/#Comment_6179174

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6179357/#Comment_6179357
  • kojou
    kojou
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    I support the change. I hope it goes live as well.
    Playing since beta...
  • Grimm13
    Grimm13
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    10 bids a majority of GM's from large to small guilds alike believe is too many. What if the number was adjusted? Would it become palatable for many that oppose it?

    1) Lower the multi-bids to 3
    2) Traders locked from purchase when guild disbands ((removing incentive to disband) This is a deal breaker, must be done)
    3) On Guild UI add in sub-section (Guild Bank: Bid History) to give one window to view bids and bid returns, allows easy
    screen shot to use in tickets if need be.
    4) Allow bids to be removed, solves accidental bids and adjustments.

    5) On forums add in Guild Discussion section. Be it Crafting and Guilds or Guilds and Housing. Either makes
    sense as those interests crossover. Guilds probably would be low traffic since a lower number number would post.
    Keep in mind each of those posters represent up to 500 players or more (x1-x5'ish).


    What is thought of this? It's a limited back up, limited added tracking/work, limited additional funds needed, limited chain reaction.
    If multi-bids is a ZOS deal breaker, then compromising on the amount makes sense. IMHO 2) is a deal breaker for guilds, must be done.

    6) PTS bid cycle needs to be permanently adjusted to add in Wednesday and Friday bid processing so it speeds up the test cycle from a weekly. Allows testing effects to be viewed more in PTS, hopefully caught and fixed easier.

    I would think having a lower number of bids would encourage more GM's to use PTS. But expect it to behave differently as most GM's will not bid on their usual traders nor with what they do on live. No body wants to reveal trader secrets, why trader costing are not talked amount with hard numbers.
    Have you Voted on Update 23?
    I Voted with my $, canceled ESO+

    PC-NA
  • wenchmore420b14_ESO
    wenchmore420b14_ESO
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    Grimm13 wrote: »
    10 bids a majority of GM's from large to small guilds alike believe is too many. What if the number was adjusted? Would it become palatable for many that oppose it?

    1) Lower the multi-bids to 3
    2) Traders locked from purchase when guild disbands ((removing incentive to disband) This is a deal breaker, must be done)
    3) On Guild UI add in sub-section (Guild Bank: Bid History) to give one window to view bids and bid returns, allows easy
    screen shot to use in tickets if need be.
    4) Allow bids to be removed, solves accidental bids and adjustments.

    5) On forums add in Guild Discussion section. Be it Crafting and Guilds or Guilds and Housing. Either makes
    sense as those interests crossover. Guilds probably would be low traffic since a lower number number would post.
    Keep in mind each of those posters represent up to 500 players or more (x1-x5'ish).


    What is thought of this? It's a limited back up, limited added tracking/work, limited additional funds needed, limited chain reaction.
    If multi-bids is a ZOS deal breaker, then compromising on the amount makes sense. IMHO 2) is a deal breaker for guilds, must be done.

    6) PTS bid cycle needs to be permanently adjusted to add in Wednesday and Friday bid processing so it speeds up the test cycle from a weekly. Allows testing effects to be viewed more in PTS, hopefully caught and fixed easier.

    I would think having a lower number of bids would encourage more GM's to use PTS. But expect it to behave differently as most GM's will not bid on their usual traders nor with what they do on live. No body wants to reveal trader secrets, why trader costing are not talked amount with hard numbers.

    I vote lowering it to 2... :)
    But agree on PTS!
    As I have said, there is now way PTS can replicate the Live Trading System and it wont be reflective of how it will impact the Live Server. Bugs and such, yes it will be kinda useful, but, how bout they just not do it? Lol..
    Maybe we need a poll to show just how many GM's don't want this...
    Huzzah!
    Drakon Koryn~Oryndill, Rogue~Mage,- CP 1150+
    NA / PC Beta Member since Nov 2013
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  • Runefang
    Runefang
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    All I know is that my two Mournhold guilds have almost doubled their minimum weekly charge since this change was announced. And what do I get out of the increased charge? Virtually nothing except some slight assurance that if we lose our trader spot (which rarely happens) then we'll still have a trader elsewhere.
  • SammiSakura
    SammiSakura
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    The guild trader system is a cornerstone of the in-game economy in ESO, but over time the enormous pressure on trading guilds to have a guild trader every single week has led to behaviors which reduce competition and negatively impact trader customers. Tactics employed to ensure guild trader ownership each week, such as the generation of alternate “shadow” guilds to bid on additional locations as well as guild trader speculation and resale through guild dissolution, often lead to fewer traders populated with goods and massive amounts of wasted gold.

    The multi-bidding feature is part of an initiative to provide in-game supported methods for players to have fallback trader bidding options without the associated drawbacks for both guilds and their customers. In addition to multi-bidding, we are also removing the ability for guild traders to be transferred through guild dissolution in an upcoming PTS update for Update 23. We avoided making that change prior to the multi-bidding feature because we wanted to ensure trading guilds weren’t entirely dependent on winning their one single bid each week, which puts even more pressure on them to place exorbitant bids.

    We appreciate the concerns being raised regarding this change and we are absolutely committed to monitoring the impact of this feature, as well as potentially making additional adjustments as necessary to ensure the ongoing health of the in-game economy.

    DEAR GOD THANK YOU. Finally removing the backups. Also, thank you for communicating with us. It's really important to all us GM's to feel heard.
    Also thanks to @reoskit for those summaries, nice work
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  • Dont_do_drugs
    Dont_do_drugs
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    cool, they responded. 10 bids are fine now. we are happy. good thing. done.

    Get Stuff like this (but not this stuff)

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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  • Dusk_Coven
    Dusk_Coven
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    The guild trader system is a cornerstone of the in-game economy in ESO

    It would be nice to have some transparency around this. "Cornerstone" in what way? What are the objectives behind the design? Competition? Gold sink? Immersion?
    And what is the desired outcome of the system? We have been told what symptoms are NOT desired. But what is considered acceptable?
  • Nordic__Knights
    Nordic__Knights
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    1st off i aint no GM but found my guild's trader each week with 100's of k each week because dues are just 5k per but traders being at war on ps4 na millions go out to get our spots and even still big guilds takes over our spot some weeks leaving us without but thats ok but once this system go's into play my 100's of k will need to be a few million and dues up to 15 k just in hopes of getting an spot someplace and UNFORTUNATELY im not willing to give that output each week nor will i involve myself with an guild that has high dues to line GMs bank too
    2nd this as an QOL patch your saying you want players to have an bad QOL by letting big guilds run market solo because med/small guilds might as will stop even trying to bid they wont win old guilds have the extra gold to bid millions at every spot and push the lil guilds out full time with no harm to them
    3rd this opens ghost guilds up 100 times more then is now so you just killed trade for anyoe who aint in an big guild paying others way in game gg zos keep pushing 1 day players with 1000's of real money invested into your game away
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