PTS Update 23 - Feedback Thread for Multi-Bidding

O-Los_Zulis

So, my question sorta related to the threads question - is the 500 member limit on guilds ever going to be raised?

SantieClaws

O-Los_Zulis wrote: »

So, my question sorta related to the threads question - is the 500 member limit on guilds ever going to be raised?

This one asked this long, long ago on ESO Live and they answered in the tone of never, ever, ever no etc.

They thought a larger member limit would make some guilds too powerful or something this one thinks.

Also it might hurt the servers a lot perhaps.

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

rsantijw13

Dolgubon wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

I think GMs will know exactly what I am saying here.

GMs... GMs... GMS...
Starts sounding like "me me me" even if I'm sure that not your intention. Just sayin'...

I know every analogy is doomed to fall apart when pushed too hard, but I'll still give it a try... Do you think world market regulations should be left in the hands of CEO and chairmen of Dow Jones companies... ?

A lot of people think being a trade guild GM is a lucrative position to have, but it couldn't be further from the truth. Trade guild GMs and officers are volunteers. Rather than making money from running a trade guild, they pour in hundreds of hours to run it, run auctions, raffles, and farm for the guild.

Regardless of your thoughts on it, the trader system is the one we have, and GMs are not out to scam you or their guild members. GMs are the ones complaining, because they're generally the ones who know how it'll impact the economy, and moreover, the average player.

It's more like asking a charity how much taxes they should pay rather than CEOs and chairmen of Dow Jones companies.

Yo never heard back from you on esoui.Was curious if you were able to find out if the addon I thought about was possible? Also thanks again for LWC

OrphanHelgen

Treat wrote: »

Personally, as an officer in 2 of these major trade guilds, I'm super against this multi-bidding. I don't think it will help at all. I am pretty sure it will backfire, cause far more stress for leadership and members both. We already need to bring in a huge amount of gold every week to be safe and make our bids. We sit every Sunday night clenching our cheeks for *one* bid, I can't imagine how we're going to feel when we don't even know *where* we will be and if our 10 enormous bids will be enough. I can feel my stomach dropping just thinking about it.

I fail to see how this will help smaller guilds - all the big guilds were built *over time*. We all will occupy the same spots more or less. If a small guild can't make one very large bid they aren't going to be able to make 10. They need to play the long game just like we did.

We are friendly with our neighbors and many of us are in more than one of our neighboring guilds. It will cause unrest and make people feel like they need to choose a guild to support. This is one of the very best communities within ESO - it's competitive, yes, but on the whole very civil. We all, at the end of the day, enjoy trading in ESO. Does it suck to lose your spot? Sure! It's kinda fun to win it back, too.

I'm not discussing because I have experience with trading, but because I'm interested in the subject so have that in mind
But wouldn't this new system cause less stress? I know it's bidding on 10 instead of one, but you might not need to overbid. You can bid whatever amount suits you, and you get the trader that fits for your bid. Sounds to me it's more fair this way for everyone.

Dont_do_drugs

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Treat wrote: »

Personally, as an officer in 2 of these major trade guilds, I'm super against this multi-bidding. I don't think it will help at all. I am pretty sure it will backfire, cause far more stress for leadership and members both. We already need to bring in a huge amount of gold every week to be safe and make our bids. We sit every Sunday night clenching our cheeks for *one* bid, I can't imagine how we're going to feel when we don't even know *where* we will be and if our 10 enormous bids will be enough. I can feel my stomach dropping just thinking about it.

I fail to see how this will help smaller guilds - all the big guilds were built *over time*. We all will occupy the same spots more or less. If a small guild can't make one very large bid they aren't going to be able to make 10. They need to play the long game just like we did.

We are friendly with our neighbors and many of us are in more than one of our neighboring guilds. It will cause unrest and make people feel like they need to choose a guild to support. This is one of the very best communities within ESO - it's competitive, yes, but on the whole very civil. We all, at the end of the day, enjoy trading in ESO. Does it suck to lose your spot? Sure! It's kinda fun to win it back, too.

I'm not discussing because I have experience with trading, but because I'm interested in the subject so have that in mind
But wouldn't this new system cause less stress? I know it's bidding on 10 instead of one, but you might not need to overbid. You can bid whatever amount suits you, and you get the trader that fits for your bid. Sounds to me it's more fair this way for everyone.

Since the hubs have different amount of people visiting it, guilds want specific hubs based on their ability and their traders. This grew together. So no, most don't don't mind where their guilds ends, but most want specific hubs. And bids there will increase, bcs more people will try their luck. There is nothing which would make it less painful.

OrphanHelgen

.

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Treat wrote: »

Personally, as an officer in 2 of these major trade guilds, I'm super against this multi-bidding. I don't think it will help at all. I am pretty sure it will backfire, cause far more stress for leadership and members both. We already need to bring in a huge amount of gold every week to be safe and make our bids. We sit every Sunday night clenching our cheeks for *one* bid, I can't imagine how we're going to feel when we don't even know *where* we will be and if our 10 enormous bids will be enough. I can feel my stomach dropping just thinking about it.

I fail to see how this will help smaller guilds - all the big guilds were built *over time*. We all will occupy the same spots more or less. If a small guild can't make one very large bid they aren't going to be able to make 10. They need to play the long game just like we did.

We are friendly with our neighbors and many of us are in more than one of our neighboring guilds. It will cause unrest and make people feel like they need to choose a guild to support. This is one of the very best communities within ESO - it's competitive, yes, but on the whole very civil. We all, at the end of the day, enjoy trading in ESO. Does it suck to lose your spot? Sure! It's kinda fun to win it back, too.

I'm not discussing because I have experience with trading, but because I'm interested in the subject so have that in mind
But wouldn't this new system cause less stress? I know it's bidding on 10 instead of one, but you might not need to overbid. You can bid whatever amount suits you, and you get the trader that fits for your bid. Sounds to me it's more fair this way for everyone.

Since the hubs have different amount of people visiting it, guilds want specific hubs based on their ability and their traders. This grew together. So no, most don't don't mind where their guilds ends, but most want specific hubs. And bids there will increase, bcs more people will try their luck. There is nothing which would make it less painful.

I understand if they want one specific yes that this can be a negative effect. Just trying to see the whole picture. If 100 people would be happy but 2 people wouldn't, I guess they favor those 100.

Dont_do_drugs

I don't think it's only 2 vs100. Even guilds in evermore or skywatch or glenumbra are happy and want to stay there. They aren't top Hubs but pretty good and okay for their communities, as well as a rawl or belkarth guild doesn't want to leave its nr1 hub depending on server. But the pressure on all hubs will increase bcs one troll can hit 10 guilds and make them bid higher.

OrphanHelgen

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

I don't think it's only 2 vs100. Even guilds in evermore or skywatch or glenumbra are happy and want to stay there. They aren't top Hubs but pretty good and okay for their communities, as well as a rawl or belkarth guild doesn't want to leave its nr1 hub depending on server. But the pressure on all hubs will increase bcs one troll can hit 10 guilds and make them bid higher.

Ah ok I wasn't aware of that

anitajoneb17_ESO

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

But the pressure on all hubs will increase bcs one troll can hit 10 guilds and make them bid higher.

No, one troll cannot hit ten guilds. One troll can try and hit 10 guilds but will only ever hit a maximum of one guild. Just like they can now.
I do understand your anxiety, but the confusion between 10x more bids (true) and 10x more bidders leads to some people becoming irrational.

Dont_do_drugs

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

But the pressure on all hubs will increase bcs one troll can hit 10 guilds and make them bid higher.

No, one troll cannot hit ten guilds. One troll can try and hit 10 guilds but will only ever hit a maximum of one guild. Just like they can now.
I do understand your anxiety, but the confusion between 10x more bids (true) and 10x more bidders leads to some people becoming irrational.

One troll always can hit 10 guilds due to the ripple down effect. Guild outbid kicks another guild, guild kicks another guild and so on. In best case it's only one, if the outbid guild also loses all other backup bids. But most guilds care for a spot in a specific hub, even if it's in malabal Tor, and will start to bid higher as soon as they got hit by that effect.

Sorcery

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

But the pressure on all hubs will increase bcs one troll can hit 10 guilds and make them bid higher.

No, one troll cannot hit ten guilds. One troll can try and hit 10 guilds but will only ever hit a maximum of one guild. Just like they can now.
I do understand your anxiety, but the confusion between 10x more bids (true) and 10x more bidders leads to some people becoming irrational.

What will happen if these guilds want to troll is they'll place lets say a 1M bid on 10 traders one week to figure out where that zone is at with bidding. Next week 1.5M..then 2M all the way up till those guilds start to lose their bids. That'll happen not only from trolls but from other guilds as well that are trying to move up in location...so overall i do reckon requirements will further increase, bids will increase, more will be purged from guilds trying to keep the location they want etc.

There's no longer any risk when you can bid 10 times, so musical chairs could become the norm if only a few guilds wanted it that way. This would mean a larger gold sink, but also many guilds will be pushed out entirely, more casual the guild the less chance you stand.

I've already noticed guilds in lower cities having requirements like 5k+ contributions weekly, and this will only continue to spread as things heat up. Overall i'm against this whole requirement thing, but honestly if you don't do it it's much harder to compete for any location, those guilds without them in good locations will soon find that out if multi bidding goes live.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

One troll always can hit 10 guilds due to the ripple down effect. Guild outbid kicks another guild, guild kicks another guild and so on. In best case it's only one, if the outbid guild also loses all other backup bids. But most guilds care for a spot in a specific hub, even if it's in malabal Tor, and will start to bid higher as soon as they got hit by that effect.

If you're referring to the ripple effect, why use the number 10 ? It could ripple up to 210+ guilds then. It can also ripple sidewards, or upwards. Using the number 10 in that context only adds to the confusion.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Sorcery wrote: »

What will happen if these guilds want to troll is they'll place lets say a 1M bid on 10 traders one week to figure out where that zone is at with bidding. Next week 1.5M..then 2M all the way up till those guilds start to lose their bids. That'll happen not only from trolls but from other guilds as well that are trying to move up in location...so overall i do reckon requirements will further increase, bids will increase, more will be purged from guilds trying to keep the location they want etc.

That's most likely what will happen in the short term - yes, but you don't know about mid term and long term. When the general level of bids becomes higher than the guilds are willing or able to fund (which is what you're forecasting and I agree with that), prices will go down again. And smaller guilds will return.

Sorcery

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

But the pressure on all hubs will increase bcs one troll can hit 10 guilds and make them bid higher.

No, one troll cannot hit ten guilds. One troll can try and hit 10 guilds but will only ever hit a maximum of one guild. Just like they can now.
I do understand your anxiety, but the confusion between 10x more bids (true) and 10x more bidders leads to some people becoming irrational.

One troll always can hit 10 guilds due to the ripple down effect. Guild outbid kicks another guild, guild kicks another guild and so on. In best case it's only one, if the outbid guild also loses all other backup bids. But most guilds care for a spot in a specific hub, even if it's in malabal Tor, and will start to bid higher as soon as they got hit by that effect.

Wow, just realized when i read this..it would be a trolls dream to knockout some of the top locations..they could just watch the chaos from the ripple down effect it could have. Just imagine outbidding an entire major zone and watching everyone else lose because of one troll.

In a way if i was a troll i'd almost enjoy this update more, you can bid 10 times and find out exactly what point 10 various guilds are bidding each week by placing 1M>1.5>2m weekly bids on 10 till you knock them down. Bonus points if you have 5 ghost guilds that you can do this 50 times with!

Dont_do_drugs

Sorcery wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

But the pressure on all hubs will increase bcs one troll can hit 10 guilds and make them bid higher.

No, one troll cannot hit ten guilds. One troll can try and hit 10 guilds but will only ever hit a maximum of one guild. Just like they can now.
I do understand your anxiety, but the confusion between 10x more bids (true) and 10x more bidders leads to some people becoming irrational.

What will happen if these guilds want to troll is they'll place lets say a 1M bid on 10 traders one week to figure out where that zone is at with bidding. Next week 1.5M..then 2M all the way up till those guilds start to lose their bids. That'll happen not only from trolls but from other guilds as well that are trying to move up in location...so overall i do reckon requirements will further increase, bids will increase, more will be purged from guilds trying to keep the location they want etc.

There's no longer any risk when you can bid 10 times, so musical chairs could become the norm if only a few guilds wanted it that way. This would mean a larger gold sink, but also many guilds will be pushed out entirely, more casual the guild the less chance you stand.

I've already noticed guilds in lower cities having requirements like 5k+ contributions weekly, and this will only continue to spread as things heat up. Overall i'm against this whole requirement thing, but honestly if you don't do it it's much harder to compete for any location, those guilds without them in good locations will soon find that out if multi bidding goes live.

Not only that, you can also force guilds to bid loss based with ghost guilds and lose gold with that kind of troll bidding,without any intention to win that bid. Before that u needed one guild for one bid. Now u can cover full hubs, if it's specific group of guilds, cover that group, trying to drain down their goldbackups.

Dont_do_drugs

Sorcery wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

But the pressure on all hubs will increase bcs one troll can hit 10 guilds and make them bid higher.

No, one troll cannot hit ten guilds. One troll can try and hit 10 guilds but will only ever hit a maximum of one guild. Just like they can now.
I do understand your anxiety, but the confusion between 10x more bids (true) and 10x more bidders leads to some people becoming irrational.

One troll always can hit 10 guilds due to the ripple down effect. Guild outbid kicks another guild, guild kicks another guild and so on. In best case it's only one, if the outbid guild also loses all other backup bids. But most guilds care for a spot in a specific hub, even if it's in malabal Tor, and will start to bid higher as soon as they got hit by that effect.

Wow, just realized when i read this..it would be a trolls dream to knockout some of the top locations..they could just watch the chaos from the ripple down effect it could have. Just imagine outbidding an entire major zone and watching everyone else lose because of one troll.

In a way if i was a troll i'd almost enjoy this update more, you can bid 10 times and find out exactly what point 10 various guilds are bidding each week by placing 1M>1.5>2m weekly bids on 10 till you knock them down. Bonus points if you have 5 ghost guilds that you can do this 50 times with!

OH no worries, the anarchist side in me also gets wet every now and then thinking about all that troll options.

martinhpb16_ESO

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

But the pressure on all hubs will increase bcs one troll can hit 10 guilds and make them bid higher.

No, one troll cannot hit ten guilds. One troll can try and hit 10 guilds but will only ever hit a maximum of one guild. Just like they can now.
I do understand your anxiety, but the confusion between 10x more bids (true) and 10x more bidders leads to some people becoming irrational.

No a troll guild can multi bid on 10 guilds meaning that the 10 guilds have to bid high to fend off the troll.

At the moment the troll can only bid on one so the ratio of risk is one in ten and the troll guild have to try and guess who will be unsuspecting and low-balling that week.

The ratio of risk will go up to ten in ten. As in whoever of those ten guilds bids the lowest will loose. So no-on can afford to low ball.

Consequently they will also bid higher on backups and all be competing for those backups.

The med size guilds will have to bid higher to fend off the backups bid. At the moment the mid size guilds doesn't have to fear being knocked off by a top guild but that will change.

Its just basic probability and logic.

silvereyes

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

The med size guilds will have to bid higher to fend off the backups bid.

This is an excellent reason why limiting bids to only 2-3 instead of 10 is important. It forces guilds to be more strategic about their backups. They can't blanket all of preferred tier and next-best tier with bids, funded with loans from their personal wealth. 10 bids just gives way too much power to disrupt to those with access to large piles of gold.

Even with a 2-bid limit, though, alliances are still a problem. If one member of an alliance has a grudge, they could convince all the others in the alliance to target specific guilds with their backup bids. Just one more example of how no-risk backup bids enable new bad behavior.

Edit: To be honest, I'm not sure the alliance thing would be a big problem, but it could be a problem. A 2-bid limit would be much better than a 3-bid limit for limiting this behavior. An alliance member is probably much more likely to target a strong guild with one backup bid if they know they still have another backup bid to target a weak spot as a safety net.

agegarton

This is actually a great idea and, with the additional step in a later patch of stopping guild dissolution for the purposes of having another guild step into a trade spot mid-week, it will really help ensure that smaller guilds have a fair bite of the cherry without adversely impacting larger guilds.

I can't see why some are saying that the ability to bid in multiple locations will overall raise bid rates across the game. That doesn't make logical sense. If only one bid is counted and all others are disregarded, there's no reason to assume that overall trader kiosk bids will rise. In fact, if ghost and "backup" guilds cease to exit, or at least cease to take up trade spots, it should overall start to reduce guild trader paces.

martinhpb16_ESO

agegarton wrote: »

This is actually a great idea and, with the additional step in a later patch of stopping guild dissolution for the purposes of having another guild step into a trade spot mid-week, it will really help ensure that smaller guilds have a fair bite of the cherry without adversely impacting larger guilds.

I can't see why some are saying that the ability to bid in multiple locations will overall raise bid rates across the game. That doesn't make logical sense. If only one bid is counted and all others are disregarded, there's no reason to assume that overall trader kiosk bids will rise. In fact, if ghost and "backup" guilds cease to exit, or at least cease to take up trade spots, it should overall start to reduce guild trader paces.

increased risk of snipes = higher bids, less risk = lower bids

silvereyes

agegarton wrote: »

I can't see why some are saying that the ability to bid in multiple locations will overall raise bid rates across the game.

I had the same initial reaction, but it's a little more complicated than that.

Introducing no-risk backup bids increases the chances of being targeted by new kinds of bids:

• Backup bids from a higher tier
• Probe bids with ever increasing amounts each week
• Troll/grief bids with ever increasing amounts each week
• Bids from lower tiers that can only afford to win higher tiers periodically by saving up

It only takes a week or two of loosing your preferred kiosk to these kind of bids before you start increasing your primary bid, or move elsewhere.

Most of these behaviors could be mitigated somewhat by:

• decreasing the number of bids to 2-3
• not refunding the full amount of the backup bid.

The benefits of such an approach:

• Reduces or eliminates probe bids of expensive kiosks. If a guild knows that it's going to lose a sizable chunk of gold every time it places a backup bid, it makes it less likely that they will just fund the backups with personal loans.
• Higher tiers target much lower tiers to reduce their losses
• Spreads backup bids out among a much larger set of kiosks
• Reduces the domino/ripple effects of higher tier guilds displacing others.

Even with above changes, though, there are still problems with the whole concept of multi-bidding:

• It doesn't eliminate troll bids. They don't value gold as much, funding it with crown sales or less legit means.
• Significantly increases demand for the "just-good-enough" kiosks. The ones that aren't too hidden, but still relatively inexpensive for a large guild to win and eat the losses when they don't get the full amount refunded. That may not be a huge problem for the guilds located at those lower-tiered kiosks, though, if they can afford to have a backup in the wilderness or something. If they don't get bumped too often, they may not need to increase their bids at all to compensate.

reoskit

silvereyes wrote: »

Even with a 2-bid limit, though, alliances are still a problem. If one member of an alliance has a grudge, they could convince all the others in the alliance to target specific guilds with their backup bids. Just one more example of how no-risk backup bids enable new bad behavior.

To devil's advocate, the next logical step in that tree is that the targeted guild's backup bid would need to be placed strategically, where no one would expect. In that way, the one extra bid provides a level of security against targeting because, though everyone may know where you normally bid, they wouldn't know where you backup bid.

I'm still very much on the fence about the concept of one backup, but I can see the benefits. As already mentioned here, most guilds should be able to borrow (and then return) the funds for one backup; that seems broadly achievable. One backup also allows you to get out of a mistake bid on a kiosk. If you're unable to secure a kiosk with one of two bids, sit out a week; you'll have an idea of what you need to do to try again next week... Hm. Again, still processing the concept.

Anything more than one backup bid, though, seems likely to introduce chaos and instability to the whole system.


Edit - missing word.

Fiktius

agegarton wrote: »

I can't see why some are saying that the ability to bid in multiple locations will overall raise bid rates across the game. That doesn't make logical sense. If only one bid is counted and all others are disregarded, there's no reason to assume that overall trader kiosk bids will rise. In fact, if ghost and "backup" guilds cease to exit, or at least cease to take up trade spots, it should overall start to reduce guild trader paces.

It's actually pretty simple when you think about it:

Imagine medium tier Guild X. They are very satisfied of their current spot and they have a location which they intend to keep at the next week.

What they have to consider, when placing a bid for their own current spot:

- What kind of guilds are on higher tier and how likely they're interested to use Guild X spot as back up and therefore how much they might bid on such spot
- What kind of guilds have been competing with that spot earlier and how much they are estimated to shoot on top of this spot
- How many troll guilds have been shooting before to the same zone, where guild X is located and how many neighbors have been loosing a bid against such guilds in the same zone. If more of them did, there might be a chance that bid values on their own spot increased and possible snipe might be ahead, if guild X estimate the bid value wrong.

--> As a result this guild X is higher likely gonna increase the bid and try to keep it as high that it might have a possibility to block others out. But even then this is never 100 % guaranteed due blind bidding system.

And then comes the consideration of back up bids of the guild X:

- What kind of zones are considered to be worthy of bidding
- What kind of guilds are currently holding those trader spots
- How much competition those spots had before
- How high current guilds there might be willing to bid for their spot
- How much other guilds might value that zone as their back up spot and how much they might be willing to bid

--> Guild X take funding they can afford for bidding and they place as many as they can with amounts they saw worthy.

Merlight

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

But the pressure on all hubs will increase bcs one troll can hit 10 guilds and make them bid higher.

No, one troll cannot hit ten guilds. One troll can try and hit 10 guilds but will only ever hit a maximum of one guild. Just like they can now.
I do understand your anxiety, but the confusion between 10x more bids (true) and 10x more bidders leads to some people becoming irrational.

No a troll guild can multi bid on 10 guilds meaning that the 10 guilds have to bid high to fend off the troll.

At the moment the troll can only bid on one so the ratio of risk is one in ten and the troll guild have to try and guess who will be unsuspecting and low-balling that week.

The ratio of risk will go up to ten in ten. As in whoever of those ten guilds bids the lowest will loose. So no-on can afford to low ball.

So the problem is that established guilds won't be able to keep their spot while bidding way below market value of that spot?

Dont_do_drugs

We shouldn't even discus 2 or 3 backup bids. This whole idea is nonsense. The strategically part till now was already to check neighborhood, check performance and decide what a spot might be worth. Every backup bid is too much. If someone hasn't even the time to do a bit of homework each week by checking a guilds listings and assuming how it might perform or getting an idea of what a spot might be worth I don't think he even deserves a spot in trading. Scouting out and checking competition is the least u'd expect in a competitive game. Every backup bid gives chances on Yolo brain dead decisions instead of strategical decision. The more bids, the more brain dead. Do I play fair or use every exploit for a guilds success. Next to that theres also a karma aspect and how u treat ur neighborhood, also a part of strategy. Do I hate mail someone who dared to bid my guild, or will I react mature. All those things are part of strategy. There are more than enough strategic aspects about gming a trade guild. Backups won't add anything to it. They just remove it.

martinhpb16_ESO

silvereyes wrote: »

[*] decreasing the number of bids to 2-3

I agree with absolutely everything you said apart from this. I think 3 bids will have the same effect as 10

Fiktius

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

[*] decreasing the number of bids to 2-3

I agree with absolutely everything you said apart from this. I think 3 bids will have the same effect as 10

^This.

Everyone can think about their own platforms and count how many jumpers usually are going around and pushing established big guilds out of their primary spots.
That's approx how many domino chains will be going forwards every week and the amount will increase if multiple guilds joins to the "jumper guild" type.

martinhpb16_ESO

Merlight wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

But the pressure on all hubs will increase bcs one troll can hit 10 guilds and make them bid higher.

No, one troll cannot hit ten guilds. One troll can try and hit 10 guilds but will only ever hit a maximum of one guild. Just like they can now.
I do understand your anxiety, but the confusion between 10x more bids (true) and 10x more bidders leads to some people becoming irrational.

No a troll guild can multi bid on 10 guilds meaning that the 10 guilds have to bid high to fend off the troll.

At the moment the troll can only bid on one so the ratio of risk is one in ten and the troll guild have to try and guess who will be unsuspecting and low-balling that week.

The ratio of risk will go up to ten in ten. As in whoever of those ten guilds bids the lowest will loose. So no-on can afford to low ball.

So the problem is that established guilds won't be able to keep their spot while bidding way below market value of that spot?

Market value is set by supply and demand. One of the principles of supply and demand is this:

If demand increases and supply remains unchanged, then it leads to higher equilibrium price

lordhakai

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

so if not enough people posted here, you will say, nobody complained? there are already 2 threads for it:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6194230#Comment_6194230

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6194563#Comment_6194563


nobody cares, wether the system is working right. most of the gm just dont want it and i am pretty sure, most think its a huge mistake.

sincerely yours

you forum is some good advice for the devs

silvereyes

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

[*] decreasing the number of bids to 2-3

I agree with absolutely everything you said apart from this. I think 3 bids will have the same effect as 10

Personally, I would prefer the changes never make it to live as well, but I don't have any realistic expectations that will happen.

I'm not saying 3 bids wouldn't experience the similar kind of effects as 10. But the degree is lessened, and the risks change.

For example, if a tier 1 guild has 10 bids, they can place very strong bids for almost every single tier 2 kiosk. And all 6 top tier guilds can do this.

That situation has a very different risk profile for the tier 2 guilds than a situation with only 2-3 bids. With only 2-3 bids, tier 2 guilds may not even lose their kiosks often enough to backup bids to feel like they need to raise bid prices.

Of all the bad options, in my opinion, a 2-bid limit would be the best. The dynamic changes significantly if each guild has to decide whether to take a risk on locating their single backup bid in a strong hub, or target a weaker hub. The chances of rippling disruptions are also significantly reduced.