PTS Update 23 - Feedback Thread for Multi-Bidding

anitajoneb17_ESO

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

Of course, the biggest issue overall is the lack of access to the economy for the vast majority of players and the burden the system places on buyers. If we presume that there are 9 MILLION players of ESO, and that those players are spread evenly across the platforms (I know they aren't, but for the sake of illustration...) that's 2.25 million players per platform. Currently, there is something like 218 kiosks per server, not including Cyrodiil keeps. If we presume NO player overlap (which again, is not the case), that means only 109,000 players can access the economy on any given week through the purchase of a guild trader. OUT OF OVER 2 MILLION.

^ Someone gets it.
I was roundly condemned as a liar for pointing this out 3 years ago.

It's just that the sentence "ONLY 109K players can access the economy through a guild trader" is a vast exaggeration. People not in trading guilds sell in trading guilds via their friends all the time. When they don't want to join a trading guild but have stuff to sell, they sell it to me and I sell it for them (usually with no profit) in my guild store. Simple, quick, easy. People do it all the time.
The trading system, like most systems in ESO, is pushing players towards socializing (because social bonds is what ultimately keeps players in the game). It's positive.

VaranisArano

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

Of course, the biggest issue overall is the lack of access to the economy for the vast majority of players and the burden the system places on buyers. If we presume that there are 9 MILLION players of ESO, and that those players are spread evenly across the platforms (I know they aren't, but for the sake of illustration...) that's 2.25 million players per platform. Currently, there is something like 218 kiosks per server, not including Cyrodiil keeps. If we presume NO player overlap (which again, is not the case), that means only 109,000 players can access the economy on any given week through the purchase of a guild trader. OUT OF OVER 2 MILLION.

^ Someone gets it.

I was roundly condemned as a liar for pointing this out 3 years ago.


All The Best

On the face of it, only 109,000 players per platform/server sounds terrible, assuming no duplicates, which is not the case.

But its hard to tell how much of an issue that actually is.

I'm on PC/NA, so YMMV depending on your platform/server. Every time I've gone looking for a new trading guild, I've found one that met my needs quickly - I'm looking for a reasonable fee with no dues, so I'm rather picky in the grand scheme of things. Every trading guild I'm in is constantly recruiting new members, while the members they let go are usually nonactive players or players who rarely used the trader. I often see trading guild recruiting messages in chat and a simple "Looking to join a trading guild" message in zone chat gets responses from major as well as minor trading guilds.

So in my experience, any player who wants to join a trading guild can find one to join if they try, and not just the little, out of the way trading guilds either. Again, YMMV on other servers and platforms.

In fact, we know from ZOS' statement about the Guild History issues that PC trading guilds weren't operating at peak capacity, because the addition of Guild Finder (making it easier for players to join trading guilds) increased the demand on Guild History to the breaking point! More players joining trading guilds and listing more items shows that there was room in the current system for new players to join trading guilds, even if ZOS' server clearly couldn't handle that greater capacity.


And that's not getting into the benefits ZOS gets from limiting participation, since we've seen them have issues on PC with Guild History when more players get added to the system. With 109,000 players able to list 30 items each, that caps ESO's trading system at around 3,270,000 listings at any given time, spread out across the whole game. We don't know exactly how well ZOS would handle adding lots more capacity to the trading system, but their issues with Guild History driven by an increase in players joining trading guilds indicates that they aren't currently set up for adding lots more trading capacity to ESO without a major redesign in how the servers handle that data.

Unless a redesign happens, I don't expect ZOS to increase trader capacity much beyond the new kiosks added with new zones. There's no point in greatly expanding access to the current system if the server infrastructure can't handle it.

Urigall

sylviermoone wrote: »

Apologize in advance for the wall of text to come....

Each week, hundreds of millions of gold is removed from circulation via kiosk bids. Altering the way the economy functions without introducing a new mechanism to sink this amount of gold would be unwise for the overall health of the game economy.

No need to apologise. Well articulated piece and many good points were made.

Your piece deserves more than my scant comment. I don't have the depth of knowledge to allow me comment on much of the content in any case, so I'll be brief.

My understanding of the proposed changes is the bidding system will lead to the same, gold sink effect as the current one. If it does not, there is likely to be a problem. However, I don't think ZoS intend to alter bidding in a way that diminishes the amount of gold sunk through weekly bids. Of course, I could be wrong.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

VaranisArano wrote: »

And that's not getting into the benefits ZOS gets from limiting participation, since we've seen them have issues on PC with Guild History when more players get added to the system. With 109,000 players able to list 30 items each, that caps ESO's trading system at around 3,270,000 listings at any given time, spread out across the whole game. We don't know exactly how well ZOS would handle adding lots more capacity to the trading system, but their issues with Guild History driven by an increase in players joining trading guilds indicates that they aren't currently set up for adding lots more trading capacity to ESO without a major redesign in how the servers handle that data.

ZOS having crap infrastructure is no excuse for excluding 90% of the game's population from what many players consider a key aspect of MMORPGs.

Please don't try and tell me ZOS don't have the funds to fix this, of course they do, they just choose not to.


All The Best

anitajoneb17_ESO

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Please don't try and tell me ZOS don't have the funds to fix this, of course they do, they just choose not to.

Not *everything* comes down to money. ESO's performance issues are so blatant that if they could solve it with money (even a lot of it), I believe they would. The problem is somewhere else.

Cubagaming

This is just going to hurt the smaller guilds more and more. For the whiners about ghosts, that’s what was going to keep prices fine, especially in ps4 NA. Now that the only safety net is the 10 other bids, good luck.

Dusk_Coven

VaranisArano wrote: »

3. The limited and decentralized trading system fits ZOS' intent for players acquiring items AND doesn't break their server with information demands.

Can someone with a specialized background comment on the "break the server" part?

SWTOR has a global auction house. Players can have literally dozens, if not scores of alts. You can bet serious traders there will, because EACH alt can have up to 100 sales slots.
On top of this, there is zero risk to throwing up a lot of items for sale because the listing time is maximum 3 days AND you get your fee back if the item expires.

I've never really experienced a huge lag when searching their Galactic Trade Network, even when the search returns hundreds of items and I immediately click to sort by unit price.

So... from an admittedly layman's perspective, I'd say server issues shouldn't be a problem?
(Tens of thousands of players using third-party addons requesting data from the server is a different problem, one that doesn't happen in SWTOR)

Gandrhulf_Harbard

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Please don't try and tell me ZOS don't have the funds to fix this, of course they do, they just choose not to.

Not *everything* comes down to money. ESO's performance issues are so blatant that if they could solve it with money (even a lot of it), I believe they would. The problem is somewhere else.

Name one thing that it could be that can't be fixed by money.

All The Best

sylviermoone

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

Of course, the biggest issue overall is the lack of access to the economy for the vast majority of players and the burden the system places on buyers. If we presume that there are 9 MILLION players of ESO, and that those players are spread evenly across the platforms (I know they aren't, but for the sake of illustration...) that's 2.25 million players per platform. Currently, there is something like 218 kiosks per server, not including Cyrodiil keeps. If we presume NO player overlap (which again, is not the case), that means only 109,000 players can access the economy on any given week through the purchase of a guild trader. OUT OF OVER 2 MILLION.

^ Someone gets it.
I was roundly condemned as a liar for pointing this out 3 years ago.

It's just that the sentence "ONLY 109K players can access the economy through a guild trader" is a vast exaggeration. People not in trading guilds sell in trading guilds via their friends all the time. When they don't want to join a trading guild but have stuff to sell, they sell it to me and I sell it for them (usually with no profit) in my guild store. Simple, quick, easy. People do it all the time.
The trading system, like most systems in ESO, is pushing players towards socializing (because social bonds is what ultimately keeps players in the game). It's positive.

218 kiosks * 500 members = 109,000 players that have access to list their items directly in a guild store. If someone is selling an item to you to sell in a guild store on their behalf, they aren't exactly accessing a guild store, now are they?

109,000, and that doesn't account for overlap, that presumes every player is in exactly one trading guild with a kiosk. Based on overlap percentages between my guild and others on my server, it's far more likely that the number is 3/4 of that 109k, or closer to 75-80k.

Less than 1% of the nine million players of ESO have regular access to a guild trader. That is a huge problem.

I don't discount that social bonds keep people playing the game longer at all, and that this is an important part of the guild system, I'm simply saying that it is far past time for the system to evolve in a way that is more inclusive to the rest of the player base.

Edit: spelling

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

So... from an admittedly layman's perspective, I'd say server issues shouldn't be a problem?
(Tens of thousands of players using third-party addons requesting data from the server is a different problem, one that doesn't happen in SWTOR)

And this is an issue that happens in ESO only because the native UI is so abysmally 20 years out of date (which itself is down to lazy game design principles).


All The Best

anitajoneb17_ESO

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Please don't try and tell me ZOS don't have the funds to fix this, of course they do, they just choose not to.

Not *everything* comes down to money. ESO's performance issues are so blatant that if they could solve it with money (even a lot of it), I believe they would. The problem is somewhere else.

Name one thing that it could be that can't be fixed by money.

All The Best

Ask the Beatles :-) Can't buy me love !
Just from the top of my head : Uncurable diseases, resurrection after death, travel to Mars (as of today), the current US presidency, infertility, climate change, anti personnel landmines, mosquito infestation, etc.
Not sayin' all of these problems are without any solution, but none of them are fixable with money alone.

Dusk_Coven

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

When they don't want to join a trading guild but have stuff to sell, they sell it to me and I sell it for them (usually with no profit) in my guild store. Simple, quick, easy. People do it all the time.

Can you elaborate on how this strategy is executed? I have never heard of anyone doing it nor recommending it to me.
Do they firesale it to you and you in turn firesale in the Guild Store with at least enough markup to cover the fees? And how do you keep your 30-150 sales slots clear, or do you have a strict limit on how many sales slots you devote to doing this favour?

Gandrhulf_Harbard

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Please don't try and tell me ZOS don't have the funds to fix this, of course they do, they just choose not to.

Not *everything* comes down to money. ESO's performance issues are so blatant that if they could solve it with money (even a lot of it), I believe they would. The problem is somewhere else.

Name one thing that it could be that can't be fixed by money.

All The Best

Ask the Beatles :-) Can't buy me love !
Just from the top of my head : Uncurable diseases, resurrection after death, travel to Mars (as of today), the current US presidency, infertility, climate change, anti personnel landmines, mosquito infestation, etc.
Not sayin' all of these problems are without any solution, but none of them are fixable with money alone.

Oh very funny.

I assume you respond this way because you know you can't name one thing on the issue of poor performance within ESO that can't be fixed with more money.

All The Best

anitajoneb17_ESO

sylviermoone wrote: »

218 kiosks * 500 members = 109,000 players that have access to list their items directly in a guild store. If someone is selling an item to you to sell in a guild store on their behalf, they aren't exactly accessing a guild store, now are they?

No, but they still have access to the market - through me. They can sell their stuff.
Moreover, should they want to access a guild store : all trading guilds are recruiting nearly 100% of the time ! And most of them aren't setting up any special requirements.
If the discrepancy between supply and demand was that high, wouldn't all trading guilds be swimming in applications ? That's not the case, though. That's a fact.
While the figures may stand (I doubt there are 9 millions active players but let's not get into that debate, it's irrelevant), it seems that most players simply aren't interested in trading at all. If they just want to get rid of excess inventory, they use NPC vendors, that's all.

sylviermoone wrote: »

Less than 1% of the nine million players of ESO have regular access to a guild trader. That is a huge problem.

Based on my above paragraph (and regardless of the actual figures which are subject to debate), we disagree on this. I'm not saying you're wrong when you say it's a (huge) problem, but my opinion is that it is not a problem at all. Else it would show in the trading guilds drowning in applications - or at least not constantly advertising for new members.
Not everyone is interested in trading, not everyone *needs* access to a guild trader - just like not everyone is meant to beat vSS HM.

VaranisArano

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

3. The limited and decentralized trading system fits ZOS' intent for players acquiring items AND doesn't break their server with information demands.

Can someone with a specialized background comment on the "break the server" part?

SWTOR has a global auction house. Players can have literally dozens, if not scores of alts. You can bet serious traders there will, because EACH alt can have up to 100 sales slots.
On top of this, there is zero risk to throwing up a lot of items for sale because the listing time is maximum 3 days AND you get your fee back if the item expires.

I've never really experienced a huge lag when searching their Galactic Trade Network, even when the search returns hundreds of items and I immediately click to sort by unit price.

So... from an admittedly layman's perspective, I'd say server issues shouldn't be a problem?
(Tens of thousands of players using third-party addons requesting data from the server is a different problem, one that doesn't happen in SWTOR)

Server issues shouldn't be a problem if ESO is properly designed for it.

Unfortunately, we've seen from the recent Guild History issues on PC that ESO really isn't properly designed for high demand on the current system. Higher demands on the system from new players joining trading guilds broke their current system (partly but not entirely in conjunction with PC trading addons).

So its one where, sure, ESO could redesign their current system to greatly expand trader access or an auction house. Other MMOs can do it.

But we've also seen that the current system can't handle greatly expanded access, so a redesign would be necessary. Which ZOS may or may not want to invest in doing.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Moreover, should they want to access a guild store : all trading guilds are recruiting nearly 100% of the time !

And that in an of itself is indicative that there is a massive problem with the current system.

Why are they recruiting 100% of the time?

Every reason you give why the system is "working fine" is, to someone with no vested interest in maintaining the status quo, a glaring example of yet another thing wrong with the current system.

But, as they say, there's none so blind as those who refuse to look.


All The Best

anitajoneb17_ESO

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Oh very funny.
I assume you respond this way because you know you can't name one thing on the issue of poor performance within ESO that can't be fixed with more money.

I'm no IT engineer. But I'm educated enough in IT to know that all performance issues are not solvable by simply throwing more hardware at them. I am admittedly not educated enough in those fields to get into details...
Now if you're suggesting that ZOS should be hiring 100+ IT researchers to solve their server issues... well, maybe that would do the trick... or maybe 1000... which in the end comes down to money... but come on... :-)

Nordic__Knights

With 10 bid system youll get the Mafia guilds owning 10 stores but only using 1 as main hub empty stores elsewhere is to high jack high prices for items in used stores and overall strengthening the stronghold that Mafia guilds have on the trade within the eso system as it is
Please make this move less impactful by limiting it down to 2 to 3 tops I mean that leaves some spots open for those common players and guilds to actually be able to sell in the stores

Gandrhulf_Harbard

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Oh very funny.
I assume you respond this way because you know you can't name one thing on the issue of poor performance within ESO that can't be fixed with more money.

I'm no IT engineer. But I'm educated enough in IT to know that all performance issues are not solvable by simply throwing more hardware at them. I am admittedly not educated enough in those fields to get into details...
Now if you're suggesting that ZOS should be hiring 100+ IT researchers to solve their server issues... well, maybe that would do the trick... or maybe 1000... which in the end comes down to money... but come on... :-)

So you are admitting you can't answer my question.

Just be honest enough to say so.

For the amount of money ZOS has invested in this game there is only ONE reason for such poor performance - inadequate management.

And that can easily be fixed by a little bit more money.

All The Best

Dusk_Coven

sylviermoone wrote: »

If we presume NO player overlap (which again, is not the case), that means only 109,000 players can access the economy on any given week through the purchase of a guild trader. OUT OF OVER 2 MILLION.

Theoretically they can access "the economy", albeit on a very small scale of up to 500 players -- you can sell to your own guild without having to bid on a trader.
Guild Stores wouldn't be so critical IF (VERY BIG IF) your guildies actually bought what you were listing.
BUT THEY DON'T -- at least not frequently enough.
(Which brings up the funny question of, "if my friends wouldn't buy it, why would anyone?"... but that's yet another discussion)

The WHY of this is another conversation, though I suspect a moot one because it won't change anything because economics is a pretty slippery fish to get a grip on.

I suspect ZOS intended for guild members to actually have reasonable sales to each other, possibly in lieu of guild bank management.
This "entry level" trading would then start to build a fund to move up to the next tier -- which is bidding on a Guild Store.
Can it be that Guild Stores are not meant to be so desperately important to have reasonable sales at all?

But with things as they are right now, I don't know if ZOS or anyone can steer the economy to that outcome.

Right now, if you are in a guild that has long NOT maintained a trader -- how are your sales?

anitajoneb17_ESO

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

When they don't want to join a trading guild but have stuff to sell, they sell it to me and I sell it for them (usually with no profit) in my guild store. Simple, quick, easy. People do it all the time.

Can you elaborate on how this strategy is executed? I have never heard of anyone doing it nor recommending it to me.
Do they firesale it to you and you in turn firesale in the Guild Store with at least enough markup to cover the fees? And how do you keep your 30-150 sales slots clear, or do you have a strict limit on how many sales slots you devote to doing this favour?

??
It's very easy. Imagine the scene on TS, Discord, ingame chat, whatever.

- Friend (F) : "sh*t, I have full bank and inventory, I should sell stuff but my guild slots are full and I don't want to join a trading guild. Furthermore, I don't know the market prices".
- Me : what is it you have to sell ?
- F : I have A, B, C, D and E
- Me : Okay, let me see. Forget A and B, worthless. Sell those to NPC vendor. C, D and E could sell well. I you like I can sell them for you.
- F : Fine, how do we do ?
- Me : Give them to me, I'll sell them through my trading guild and give you the income. Guild takes 7% but I'll give you all the rest. Of course, you'll have to trust me, I won't screenshot everything :-)
- F : Of course I trust you :-)
- Me : Okay, send the stuff over

I sell the stuff and give them the net income money (of course the 7% off are on them).

After a while of this, I switched to paying myself upfront to avoid all the bookkeeping. I evaluate the stuff at current market prices. If I make a loss, that's on me, if I make a profit, that's on me too, it tends to balance out.

Of course this requires trust and a personal bond - you don't do it for strangers. But in my opinion people who refuse to engage in personal relationships in MMOs shouldn't be there or at least shouldn't complain that they're a bit left out and shouldn't complain that the game design doesn't cater to them. It's an MMO after all.

As to your question regarding guild slots : stuff goes, quick. Correctly priced stuff goes quick. No matter where your guild trader is. Even at the very end of Hew's Bane or at the Baandari Remote Place (don't remember the exact name) , if your goods are priced properly, they go, and they go quick. As a result, sale slots are not much of an issue. There's always empty ones. And no, I don't have 5 trading guilds, just 2, that's 60 slots available at any given time.

Furthermore, should they need more than that and want to sell by themselves for a short while, I give them entry to my trading guilds. I say it upfront : "that guy's a friend of mine. He/She won't get involved much, nor won't stay long, but in the next 1 or 2 weeks, he/she's going to sell a lot and will not cause trouble. After that he/she'll leave". I've never ever met a refusal.

I am quite stunned that you've never come across such an arrangement. Everyone in my PvE or PvP guilds knows I'm into trading, and also who else in the guild is into trading, and they ask us for arrangements like that all the time. That's how healthy social groups work.

Could it be that people these days expect everything from "systems" and can't resort to normal, spontaneous, healthy human interaction ? Just asking.

EDIT 1 typos.

EDIT 2 : have you looked at some of the listings at the top traders ? Hundreds and hundreds of mats and tempers in big bulks... do you think they farm all this stuff legit by themselves ? I can tell you it's impossible. Those people represent literally armies of farmers (humans or bots). I'm not saying that's a good thing, but I'm saying it has to be taken into account when putting the "99% of players have no access to the markets" into some sort of perspective. One trader can represent and act for literally hundreds of players (or players' accounts).

ListerJMC

To agree with most people here, I think this is a terrible idea. I appreciate that you've responded and posted some rationale for this decision, but I don't agree that this is the way to go. I can't see how the increase in bidding capability for those who can afford it over the limited traders we have is going to decrease 'exorbitant bids' or help smaller/casual guilds at all.

Removing the ability for guild traders to be transferred through guild dissolution sounds like the better of your two plans to try and fix your system (though I'm still unsure that's going to fix the issue entirely). As a potential alternative or addition, I'd suggest adding more guild trader locations to keep up with the game's population growth.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

So you are admitting you can't answer my question.

I'm admitting that I trust ZOS when they say that the problem can't be reduced to hardware and they can't solve it with hardware alone. Because it makes sense.

You don't trust them on that, fine.

As to judging ZOS' decision regarding budget and money allocation... that's so out of our reach (and most certainly so far out of the reach of the people who communicate with us, like Rich or Gina) that's it's laughable, in my opinion, to even mention it.

VaranisArano

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Moreover, should they want to access a guild store : all trading guilds are recruiting nearly 100% of the time !

And that in an of itself is indicative that there is a massive problem with the current system.

Why are they recruiting 100% of the time?

Every reason you give why the system is "working fine" is, to someone with no vested interest in maintaining the status quo, a glaring example of yet another thing wrong with the current system.

But, as they say, there's none so blind as those who refuse to look.


All The Best

Don't go creating a Catch 22 where if trading guilds are full there must be a massive unmet demand for spots in guilds but if guilds are constantly recruiting there's some massive problem with the system.

Guilds recruit because they want active traders in order to fill their store and make their trader bids. Now, "active trader" varies from guild to guild. I've been in one trading guild that had no requirements beyond logging in every two weeks. Another one with higher requirements gave new members a grace period of a month and then started kicking. My most consistent guild in terms of sales had a sales requirement of 5k or 1k raffle ticket every week, which is not hard at all for any active player to do.

In my experience, most turnover was due to two factors.
1. Inactivity. If you aren't logging in or you aren't selling over a period of time, most trading guilds aren't going to keep dead weight around.
2. Not meeting clearly stated minimums. I'm a firm believer in joining guilds that suit your playstyle and I've never had an issue finding a guild with low requirements and a consistent trader.

So IME on PC/NA, moderate to lightly active players who actually want to trade can find and keep spots in trading guilds.

Players who join and then don't stay active or don't sell or don't contribute to the guild are the ones who get kicked, creating turnover for new players to join.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

VaranisArano wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Moreover, should they want to access a guild store : all trading guilds are recruiting nearly 100% of the time !

And that in an of itself is indicative that there is a massive problem with the current system.

Why are they recruiting 100% of the time?

Every reason you give why the system is "working fine" is, to someone with no vested interest in maintaining the status quo, a glaring example of yet another thing wrong with the current system.

But, as they say, there's none so blind as those who refuse to look.


All The Best

Don't go creating a Catch 22 where if trading guilds are full there must be a massive unmet demand for spots in guilds but if guilds are constantly recruiting there's some massive problem with the system.

Guilds recruit because they want active traders in order to fill their store and make their trader bids. Now, "active trader" varies from guild to guild. I've been in one trading guild that had no requirements beyond logging in every two weeks. Another one with higher requirements gave new members a grace period of a month and then started kicking. My most consistent guild in terms of sales had a sales requirement of 5k or 1k raffle ticket every week, which is not hard at all for any active player to do.

In my experience, most turnover was due to two factors.
1. Inactivity. If you aren't logging in or you aren't selling over a period of time, most trading guilds aren't going to keep dead weight around.
2. Not meeting clearly stated minimums. I'm a firm believer in joining guilds that suit your playstyle and I've never had an issue finding a guild with low requirements and a consistent trader.

So IME on PC/NA, moderate to lightly active players who actually want to trade can find and keep spots in trading guilds.

Players who join and then don't stay active or don't sell or don't contribute to the guild are the ones who get kicked, creating turnover for new players to join.

So we are looking at two varieties of inactivity here?
Not active at all.
Not active enough to meet minimum sales targets.

Guilds need active traders. Why?

Because it is bloody expensive to get a kiosk. Why?

Not enough kiosks in viable locations!

The constant turnover of players in trade guilds is therefore indicative of a deep seated problem with the financial viability of trade kiosks.

It isn't rocket science to figure this out, just basic logic and reasoning unclouded by a vested interest in maintaining the current system.

To solve any problem one must first be prepared to look at what it really is, dispassionately.

That is what I am doing.

The problem here isn't the number of bids required to secure a kiosk.

The problem is that even running at capacity, assuming no player overlaps, there's only enough Kiosks for 10% of the player population.

Factor in financially viable kiosks, and its even lower.

Anyone not able to see that as the BIGGEST problem is not a part of the solution, they are part of the problem.


All The Best

Gandrhulf_Harbard

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

So you are admitting you can't answer my question.

I'm admitting that I trust ZOS when they say that the problem can't be reduced to hardware and they can't solve it with hardware alone.

Who said anything about hardware?


All The Best

VaranisArano

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Moreover, should they want to access a guild store : all trading guilds are recruiting nearly 100% of the time !

And that in an of itself is indicative that there is a massive problem with the current system.

Why are they recruiting 100% of the time?

Every reason you give why the system is "working fine" is, to someone with no vested interest in maintaining the status quo, a glaring example of yet another thing wrong with the current system.

But, as they say, there's none so blind as those who refuse to look.


All The Best

Don't go creating a Catch 22 where if trading guilds are full there must be a massive unmet demand for spots in guilds but if guilds are constantly recruiting there's some massive problem with the system.

Guilds recruit because they want active traders in order to fill their store and make their trader bids. Now, "active trader" varies from guild to guild. I've been in one trading guild that had no requirements beyond logging in every two weeks. Another one with higher requirements gave new members a grace period of a month and then started kicking. My most consistent guild in terms of sales had a sales requirement of 5k or 1k raffle ticket every week, which is not hard at all for any active player to do.

In my experience, most turnover was due to two factors.
1. Inactivity. If you aren't logging in or you aren't selling over a period of time, most trading guilds aren't going to keep dead weight around.
2. Not meeting clearly stated minimums. I'm a firm believer in joining guilds that suit your playstyle and I've never had an issue finding a guild with low requirements and a consistent trader.

So IME on PC/NA, moderate to lightly active players who actually want to trade can find and keep spots in trading guilds.

Players who join and then don't stay active or don't sell or don't contribute to the guild are the ones who get kicked, creating turnover for new players to join.

So we are looking at two varieties of inactivity here?
Not active at all.
Not active enough to meet minimum sales targets.

Guilds need active traders. Why?

Because it is bloody expensive to get a kiosk. Why?

Not enough kiosks in viable locations!

The constant turnover of players in trade guilds is therefore indicative of a deep seated problem with the financial viability of trade kiosks.

It isn't rocket science to figure this out, just basic logic and reasoning unclouded by a vested interest in maintaining the current system.

To solve any problem one must first be prepared to look at what it really is, dispassionately.

That is what I am doing.

The problem here isn't the number of bids required to secure a kiosk.

The problem is that even running at capacity, assuming no player overlaps, there's only enough Kiosks for 10% of the player population.

Factor in financially viable kiosks, and its even lower.

Anyone not able to see that as the BIGGEST problem is not a part of the solution, they are part of the problem.


All The Best

You are assuming that your 10 % of the player population is equal to or exceeds the number of players who are actively playing and want to trade.

Which is an assumption, given that trading guilds are experiencing turnover of inactive players who aren't playing or inactive players who aren't trading enough to meet some pretty low minimums, AND that major and minor trading guilds are constantly recruiting.

I mean, if your goal is for every player to have access to trading, no matter how inactive or whether they sell less than 1k a week, sure, the current system is inadequate.

I'm not convinced that ZOS intends for every single player no matter how inactive to have access to trading, but rather has focused on making sure that active players who want to trade have access through trading guilds. The current situation on PC/NA, the variety of guild requirements, and the constant turnover of inactive players from guilds is indicative of a system where active players who want to trade have access to a variety of trading guilds that meet their needs.

If you've got a different experience, which platform are you on and how have you seen active players who want to trade shut out of having trader access?

Because if active players who want to trade are being shut out, there's reason for ZOS to expand. But if active players who want to trade have enough capacity to do so by joining existing trading guilds, there's no reason for ZOS to expand capacity for inactive players - that's just inefficient and not cost-effective. Sure, it would be nice for those players, but ZOS isn't going to add a bunch of capacity that will largely go unused.

silvereyes

VaranisArano wrote: »

But if active players who want to trade have enough capacity to do so by joining existing trading guilds, there's no reason for ZOS to expand capacity for inactive players

I totally agree that citing percentages of the total player base - many of whom are barely active in the game at all, let alone want to trade - isn't really a great way of determining if the guild trader system is at capacity.

However, we don't really need to make wild guesses about whether there is a supply problem for the current trader demand. All we need to do is look at bid prices.

Whether people believe GM's claims about high bid prices or not, @ZOS_PhilipDraven, one of the few authorities who has access to all bid price data, has said that enough of them are "exorbitant" to warrant ZOS investing development resources into trying to tackle the problem.

Unfortunately, multi-bidding doesn't really solve the supply issue or bid price issue. Nor does it solve all the bad behaviors unique to console (multiple alt accounts).

VaranisArano

silvereyes wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

But if active players who want to trade have enough capacity to do so by joining existing trading guilds, there's no reason for ZOS to expand capacity for inactive players

I totally agree that citing percentages of the total player base - many of whom are barely active in the game at all, let alone want to trade - isn't really a great way of determining if the guild trader system is at capacity.

However, we don't really need to make wild guesses about whether there is a supply problem for the current trader demand. All we need to do is look at bid prices.

Whether people believe GM's claims about high bid prices or not, ZOS_PhilipDraven, one of the few authorities who has access to all bid price data, has said that enough of them are "exorbitant" to warrant ZOS investing development resources into trying to tackle the problem.

Unfortunately, multi-bidding doesn't really solve the supply issue or bid price issue. Nor does it solve all the bad behaviors unique to console (multiple alt accounts).

Yeah, I have my concerns about multi-bidding. It seems intended to help guilds get "a trader, any trader". But in practice, it seems like the only guilds who will be able to take advantage of it is the guilds who make enough extra gold to place large backup bids, while guilds who depended on lower tier traders may be priced out in a market shuffle

It runs the risk of "to those who have, more will be given. Of those who have none, even what they have will be taken away."

Grimm13

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Moreover, should they want to access a guild store : all trading guilds are recruiting nearly 100% of the time !

And that in an of itself is indicative that there is a massive problem with the current system.

Why are they recruiting 100% of the time?

But, as they say, there's none so blind as those who refuse to look.
[/quote]

I am recruiting all the time as there is a constant stream of players that stop playing. I am up front about cutting inactives after 21 days, used to be 30 days but I still see about 10 - 16 players a week stop playing ESO. Past year I have had about 10 players come back after a 3+ month hiatus.

Why is there 60 - 80 players stop playing eso in a months time? I am not even counting on those that come in during free eso trials. I do see an increase of quits around updates first announced, tapers off then again when Updates released then tapers off again.

With the guild finder I now have hundreds of apps to instantly replace the attrition. I no longer have to go bug zone chat with ads for hours of my play time trying to be in the right place at the right time.

I would really love to see the game attrition rate and find out why ESO has a problem with player retention.