Benemime wrote: »

I would change this to:

Imperial Insight: Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.

Imperial Mettle: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.

Red Diamond: Increases your Max Health by 2000. When you deal Direct Damage you have a 10% chance to heal for 1500.

That's a lot of stats! Are you ok with only potential health sustain and no magicka or stamina sustain?

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

I'm concerned about the effect immunity passive. Specifically, the Chill immunity. I play a support build Frost Magden in PvP. I make no effort to deal dmg, but focus on Immobilizes, Stuns, Buff/Debuffs.

My Bars are loaded up with Frost skills. Chill gives Immobilize and Minor Main.

If a Breton has Chill immunity he strolls without a care in the world right through my Frost Blockade. 100% immunity to my Minor Maim debuff.

I don't know, what is the percentage of Bretons in EP? Say 30-50% of all EP players basically laugh at my Frost Mag and stroll right through my Blockade? I would literally have to avoid ever fighting EP altogether and limit myself to contending against DC only.

It's Nords and they are just as immune already. Bretons could use frost glyphs though and achieve the same effect...

GildedSun wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

I would change this to:

Imperial Insight: Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.

Imperial Mettle: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.

Red Diamond: Increases your Max Health by 2000. When you deal Direct Damage you have a 10% chance to heal for 1500.

That's a lot of stats! Are you ok with only potential health sustain and no magicka or stamina sustain?

yes, i don't think we are outshining the other races at all.they got plenty of other useful things on their hands.

Revokus wrote: »

Would be cool for Imperials to get some magicka bonuses since many imperials are necromancers and mages. It would also fit with the theme of Elsweyr story wise.

this. We have The Prophet (Varen Aquilarios) as a skilled imperial "mage", we have Abnur Tharn as a skilled sorcerer, and many sorcerers related to imperial culture, so unfair that we got nothing.

---

I would also change this:

"Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain"

to this:

"Increases Experience gain with any weapon Skill Line by 3%, extra 1% Gold gain"

We are suppose to be the jack-of-all-trades after all.



.

So will there be no further adjustments to racial passives based on the given feedback or is an adjustment to racial passives coming in a future PTS week? Because I see nothing in this weeks PTS notes.

DeathStalker wrote: »

So will there be no further adjustments to racial passives based on the given feedback or is an adjustment to racial passives coming in a future PTS week? Because I see nothing in this weeks PTS notes.

Read the beginning.

"You’ll notice that we haven’t made any changes to the racial passives in this patch; we are planning to add a few adjustments in next week’s PTS patch. "

Benemime wrote: »

yes, i don't think we are outshining the other races at all.they got plenty of other useful things on their hands.
---
I would also change this:
"Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain"
to this:
"Increases Experience gain with any weapon Skill Line by 3%, extra 1% Gold gain"
We are suppose to be the jack-of-all-trades after all.

To me, if you are pushing hybrid that hard then you should change your suggestion of "When you deal Direct Damage you have a 10% chance to heal for 1500" to something like what Silver_Strider suggested: "Restore 300 Health, Magic and Stamina upon activation of a Weapon ability. 5 second CD." Or at least something that gives you sustain in health, magicka, and stamina and not just the health chance proc.

To those worried about the implications for Bosmer thieves of losing their bonus to sneaking, keep in mind that there are sets to give the same exact bonus:

https://eso-sets.com/set/night-mothers-embrace
https://eso-sets.com/set/night-terror

Thieving doesn't exactly involve a lot of fighting, either, so giving up a 3 or 5 piece bonus isn't unreasonable, if you like that play-style. The speed boost is actually a huge buff to thieves, since you can outrun any guards you want.

Throw in a level 4 vampire passive or Night's Silence set for faster sneaking, and you got yourself a pretty unstoppable thief.

Not saying I'm happy about the Bosmer changes, but the impact on thieving shouldn't be bad.

Edit: This is assuming a stamina Bosmer, of course. If you are running magicka, then those sets will loose you a ton of stats from not wearing Light Armor. So ... don't play a magicka Bosmer thief I guess.

silvereyes wrote: »

To those worried about the implications for Bosmer thieves of losing their bonus to sneaking, keep in mind that there are sets to give the same exact bonus:

https://eso-sets.com/set/night-mothers-embrace
https://eso-sets.com/set/night-terror

Thieving doesn't exactly involve a lot of fighting, either, so giving up a 3 or 5 piece bonus isn't unreasonable, if you like that play-style. The speed boost is actually a huge buff to thieves, since you can outrun any guards you want.

Throw in a level 4 vampire passive or Night's Silence set for faster sneaking, and you got yourself a pretty unstoppable thief.

Not saying I'm happy about the Bosmer changes, but the impact on thieving shouldn't be bad.

Edit: This is assuming a stamina Bosmer, of course. If you are running magicka, then those sets will loose you a ton of stats from not wearing Light Armor. So ... don't play a magicka Bosmer thief I guess.

Yes, has used this sets on magic builds then with +magic enchants for the DB and TG dailies, later who I farmed for some time.
Only has to remember to swap them out before trying to heal in dungeons

Imperials still need to be looked at; I was very disappointed to see no change in today’s patch notes. Posted this in another thread.

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

They 1000% need to rethink their Imperial changes. Imperial was a good Tank and a good Stam DPS. What they’ve done thus far is uninspired and ruins the race for anything other than mediocre Tanking. I think ZOS really needs to think back to Imperial history, in how they should be shaped.

General:
Imperials, in Lore, are known for their civility, diplomacy, order, and wealth. They are inspired by RL Romans.

Morrowind:
- +10 Speechcraft
- +10 Mercantile
- +10 Long Blade
- +5 Blunt Weapon
- +5 Light Armor
- +5 Hand-to-hand
- Absorb Fatigue 200 pts on target
- Charm 25 to 50 pts for 15 seconds on target

Oblivion:
- +10 Mercantile
- +10 Speechcraft
- +10 Heavy Armor
- +5 Blade
- +5 Blunt
- +5 Hand to Hand
- Absorb Fatigue 100 points on Touch, once per day
- Charm 30 points for 30 seconds on Target, once per day

Skyrim
- +10 Restoration
- +5 Block
- +5 Destruction
- +5 Enchanting
- +5 Heavy Armor
- +5 One-handed
- Anywhere gold coins might be found, Imperials always seem to find a few more, constant
- Calms nearby people for 60 seconds, once per day

The consistent bonuses are to various weapon types, fatigue (stamina), military background, and speech/charming. Therefore, I think a better approach to Imperial, that respects both their lore and utility in ESO, and their place as a paid race that is available to all alliances would be:

Imperial:
- Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain → Increases Experience gain in any Melee Skill Line* by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain
- 12% Max Health + 10% Max Stamina → Increases your Max Health and Max Stamina by 2000.
- New Passive → Increase Melee Weapon Damage by 258
- 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → When you deal Direct Damage you have a 15% chance to heal for 1750 and restore 950 Stamina.

*Two-Handed, Dual-Wield, and One Hand and Shield

The change to passive one highlights their consistent military excellence and RL inspiration. The change to passive two highlights their consistent armor expertise, and their fatigue bonuses. The change to passive three again highlights their weapon expertise. The change to passive four is a nod to their charming in that they’re metaphorically sapping away at them, and once more speaks to the historical fatigue bonuses.

Only in Skyrim were there any real nods to magic from a player POV, and I would genuinely hate to see Imperial turned into some weird hybrid race so that they could be both crappy Magicka and Stamina DPS. Likewise, while a passive that applied to group members would be neat (e.g. Increases your and up to 11 members Max Health and Max Stamina by 2000), I would only want it if it didn’t lead to the removal of something else. That would be a huge nod to Imperials’ roles as diplomats and traders, however, I’d rather maintain solo potential if it meant losing something.

Eiron77 wrote: »

Wood Elf
Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10% → No changes
Y’ffre’s Endurance: Gain 21% Stamina Recovery → Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258.
Resist Affliction: Gain 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

Developer Comment:
Spoiler
Previously, if you weren’t able to utilize Stealth you lost a large portion of effectiveness that Wood Elves provided, so we’ve reworked this passive. Since Wood Elves are natural born hunters, we gave them a unique movement speed boost so they could hunt their targets better, or reposition to a more favorable position. Additionally, since the Khajiiti race deals much with adeptness for the shadows, we’ve repurposed the Stealthy passive to be an anti-stealth one.

As a Wood Elf Nightblade main since Beta and beyond, I am happy with "Y'ffre's Endurance" and "Resist Affliction", but am completely against the changes to "Stealthy/Hunter's Eye". Hunter's Eye is not very well thought out at all and it is definitely not, "unique" as you say. It's nearly a copy/paste of the Bow passive ability, Hasty Retreat.

I would suggest the following instead:
(though I'd rather keep my stealthiness, I'm trying to keep in line with your concept)


Hunter's Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. Increases Damage Done in Stealth and to Stealthed/Invisible targets by %. Critical Damage increased by %.

I feel this is more in-line with your concept of the "anti-stealth" and "hunter" race, maintains some of its original identity; and provides some kind of boost when not in stealth or dealing with hidden targets. Also, the ability does not step on the toes of the Khajit revisions.



Additionally, please don't take away boosted stealth damage. If you must take it away from Wood Elves and Khajits, please add it to one/some/all of the following skill lines: Legerdemain, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood.
My main enjoyment out of the game is sneaking, thieving, and killing from the shadows. Please don't take away skills that improve those abilities.

As a Woodelf DK main since beta and on nearly all my characters. No, please get rid of almost entirely useless passives tied to stealth/ganking. These passives barely benefit gankers and questing and mislead players as to their actual value.

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

Imperials didn't have Sustain before, although with their 10% stamina bonus they had the highest damage potential as Stamina dps together with Redguards. So you could rationalize "oh, I don't have the sustain, but at least I am hitting as strong as a Redguard". However, now Orcs, Bosmers and Dunmers got buffed stam-dps-wise and Imperials went a places down in the hierarchy. That is sad. If ZOS doesn't want to give them sustain, they should give something else, be it a vaste amount of stats.

Yeah I get that they didn't have it before but if people are wanting it to move into a hybrid role it just sorta makes sense to me to give it a sustain passive for tri stats; that is totally just my opinion though.

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

I don't like the idea of Imperials buffing everyone with 1k health which is going around here for two reasons:
1. It won't stack (else it'd be OP), so in raids it will be: 1 Imperial is ok (or even wanted), but a second Imperial can stay at home... Compared to that, how many Dunmers, Altmers or Bretons will you have in your raid?
2. It's a very tanky ability, not making dps any better dps.

I'm not sure that I read that anywhere exactly but I do kind of like the idea of a group buff of some kind, it seems very interesting and is at least cool in concept to me. What kind of buff it should be though, I'm not sure...

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

That is similar to something I suggested earlier. Just add sustain to Red Diamond. Tanks are using weapon abilities (at least Puncture, Low Slash), Healers use it (Combat Prayer, Healing Springs), DPS use it (Stam more than Magicka, but Imperials were favoring Stamina before anyway)... It just needs to be weaker than a Redguard's Sustain, I guess similar to Bosmer's Sustain would be a good fit.

I'm not up with all of the lore but is there any lore specific to imperials and Red Diamond or are people just attached to the name? Just curious to me...

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

Imperials still need to be looked at; I was very disappointed to see no change in today’s patch notes. Posted this in another thread.

Me too. I don't think they are reading this thread either, we are talking for ages about imperials but what do they say about it on patch notes? This:

We were relatively happy with the performance of the Imperial races previously

I don't think they intend to make imperials a jack-of-all-trades at all.

I did some testing on PTS to compare the speed bonuses/sprint cost reduction of Orcs Swift Warrior passive vs Bosmer's Hunter's Eye roll dodge speed boost passive, to see how they handled and which I preferred.

Test Setup

• The test course ran in a mostly straight line in Rawl'ka, from the well in the middle of town just over the second bridge leading out of town.
• No speed sets or swift jewelry were used.
• The test run was short enough for each to complete in under 30 seconds, but long enough to simulate a longish PvP pursuit, or a run between farming nodes.
• I repeated the test runs 10 times for Orc and 10 times for Bosmer
• Both characters were Nightblades with all class passives.
• Additionally, both characters had all passives for the following skill lines:
  • Racial
  • Bow
  • Undaunted
  • Medium Armor
• Both characters used the exact same gear
• All attribute points in stamina.
• All gear was gold.
• All armor was medium, impen, with all passives taken
• All armor had tri stat prismatic glyphs
• All jewelry was robust.
• Sets consisted of a cookie-cutter PvP setup:
  • 2 Bloodspawn
  • 5 pc Bone Pirate
  • 3 pc Spriggans
  • 2 pc Masters Bow
• Same blue max stam+health food on both.
• Warrior mundus stone

Champion Points

With the Bosmer passive being activated by roll dodging, I found it best to use different Champion point distributions for each race:

Bosmer:

• 72 Tumbling + 3 Shade (The Shadow)
• 120 points in The Lover tree for the Windrunning bonus (2% movement speed increase)
• 71 Sprinter (The Tower)

Orc:

• 120 points in The Lover tree for the Windrunning bonus (2% movement speed increase)
• 100 Sprinter (The Tower)
• The rest makes no speed or endurance difference and can be distributed however you like.

Race Results

• Orc time: 18 seconds, every time
  https://youtu.be/to3IgbWbqkk
• Bosmer time: 17 seconds, every time
  https://youtu.be/69rHrFwxVdY

Edit: I previously reported that Orc might be faster due to a new test, but I double-checked, and that test was faulty because I accidentally had on some swift jewelry from my farming sets.

Stamina Burn Rate

Bosmer

With Champion Points

• Stamina Used: 36.5k-22.4k = 14.1k (38.6%)
• Time Elapsed: 17 seconds
• Stamina Burn: 14.2k stamina / 17 seconds ~ 830 stamina / second

No CP

• Stamina Used: 31.6k-1k = 30.6k (96.8%)
• Time Elapsed: 17 seconds
• Stamina Burn: 30.6k stamina / 17 seconds = 1800 stamina / second

Orc

With Champion Points

• Stamina Used: 35k - 23.8k = 11.2k (32%)
• Time Elapsed: 18 seconds
• Stamina Burn: 11.2k / 18 seconds ~ 620 stamina / second

No CP

• Stamina Used: 30k - 12.3k = 17.7k (59%)
• Time Elapsed: 18 seconds
• Stamina Burn: 17.7k / 18 seconds ~ 980 stamina / second

Observations

• Without any speed gear on, the speed advantage of Hunter's Eye is noticable.
• I did a separate test with node farming gear on (Jailbreaker, Fiords) and Major Expedition up (rapids), and the difference completely disappeared. Both races were at speed cap.
• There's a skill component to taking full advantage of Hunters-Eye. I had to practice a bit before I got consistent enough to start recording data.
  • Mapping roll dodge to mouse up helps immensely.
  • The trick is to wait just past the 4 second mark from the start of the dodge roll.
  • If you roll again before 4 seconds, you are hit with a 33% extra cost penalty
  • If you roll again too long after 4 seconds, then you lose uptime on Hunter's Eye and the Bow passive Hasty Retreat.
    Edit: As Adenoma notes below, Hasty Retreat lasts a bit longer than Hunter's Eye or the dodge roll fatigue debuff, due to it's 4 seconds starting at the *end* of the roll, and Hunter's Eye's 4 seconds starting at the *beginning* of the roll. I would personally prefer it if Hunter's Eye started at the end as well.
• Since the Orc's speed boost is activated by sprinting, it's easy to achieve 100% speed efficiency with zero thought. Just hold down Shift + Up.
• Both felt very fast, but the extra graphical effects on the Bosmer made me feel superhumanly fast.
• With all the dodge rolling, the Bosmer was much more evasive. Not only was there the dodging itself, but the immunity to snares and the Phase passive's added resistance.

Edit: See Stamina Burn Rate section for stamina figures.

Conclusions

Which is better for farming?

Orcs wearing Fiords, Jailbreaker and three Swift jewelry are objectively best for farming.

• They reach 193% of base run speed while sprinting, just 7% shy of the 200% cap.
  That's 100% for base run speed + 40% for sprint + 10% Swift Warrior + (3 * 6%) Swift Jewelry + 10% Jailbreaker + 15% Fiords.
  If they use Rapid Maneuver whenever mounted to travel between far nodes, any leftover Major Expedition buff will basically put them at speed cap.
• Bosmers only get their speed boost 75% of the time, since 1 out of every 4 seconds, at best, is spent dodge rolling.
• Bosmers will never achieve even 75% uptime on their speed boost, since many nodes are closer than 4 seconds apart while sprinting.
• Bosmer wearing only Jailbreaker or two Swift jewels will reach the +100% speed cap (Sprinting (+40%) + Hunter's Eye (+20%) + Bow Hasty Retreat (+30%) + Jailbreaker (+10%)). No further Swift traits or sets can make them go any faster.

Which is better for PVE?

I'm not really certain.

For sustain, and for flexibility with Champion Points, I prefer Orc's Swift Warrior passive. Most mechanics that involve needing to get somewhere fast involve sprinting, and you'll appreciate having the extra stamina once you get there, as well as not needing to roll dodge to activate your speed.

That said, it's hard to overestimate the value of being able to move quickly and dodge in the same fluid motion. You probably won't need to dodge roll more than twice to get where you are going, so if your stamina pool can take that hit, it's a very nice passive indeed.

Hunter's Eye is objectively better for damage-dealing combat itself, because if you are doing damage, then you aren't sprinting. But you also can't afford to roll dodge every 4 seconds and hope to sustain your damage, so it's more of a situational perk.

Which is better for PvP?

I haven't tested this out in real-world scenarios, and I'm not particularly good at PvP in any case, so it's hard to say, but I have some thoughts.

My main worry about Hunter's Eye is all that dodge rolling. It seems like you could run out of stamina pretty quickly in a prolonged fight.

It probably depends on a lot of factors. Ironically enough, if you are playing a ranged, hit-and-run style, Orc might be better. Not needing to track a 4 second timer and being able to run longer without running out of resources is a huge advantage.

However, I can also easily see the evasiveness and speed of Hunter's Eye being the difference between being able to get to a safe place to stealth and dying.

For a melee brawler style, the Hunter's Eye passive would allow you to dodge and then tactically reposition very quickly when needed.

For both styles, however, Nightblades already have Shadow Image, Vampires have Elusive Mist, Sorcs have Streak, everyone has Shuffle, etc. There are plenty of evasion tools in the kit already. The main advantage of Hunter's Eye, then, becomes freeing up a slot on your bar.

Edit: After doing some no-CP tests, the difference is pretty stark. The built-in cost reduction with Orc makes a big difference, as well as not dodge rolling. For No CP, Orc is far superior in my opinion.

Final Thoughts on Hunter's Eye

Pros:

• Hunter's Eye's speed bonus is very powerful for a second-tier racial passive.
• Suited to a fast, evasion-oriented play style
• Fun way to feel mobile without needing to take up a slot for a mobility skill.

Cons:

• I worry that it will be too powerful for PvP CP campaigns.
• Without any Steed mundus or Swift jewelry, a Bosmer can now outrun anyone, at least for about 30-40 seconds.
• For no-CP campaigns and Battlegrounds, Hunter's Eye is too expensive to use for escape. It's usefulness is limited to repositioning quickly.
• Getting into a rhythm with roll-dodging can be difficult if there are any interruptions to the flow.
• Orc and Bosmer's non-stat-based racial passives are too similar to give them enough racial identity. The fact that I had to run tests to determine which of the "speed" bonuses was better for what kind of proves that.