PTS Update 21 - Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Changes

waitwhat

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

^ ZOS decided Nords are tanks, you will receive second horn several seconds earlier.
Also there is one important detail about resistance. This 4k sums with other resistances, while previous 6% were extracted as 6% from already mitigated damage.. so you may invest less in resistances as tank and spent on something useful for dps of your groupmates ^^

Agreed. Nords come out really well this update as tanks.

If we're having a problem with Nords being shoehorned into the thanking role, that is actually a separate discussion, namely: should combat passives be coupled with racial status at all?

XomRhoK

So many feedback threads in different forum categories, so i just leave this link here, to my suggestions thread.

twing1_

Urvoth wrote: »

Altmer now have no real racial identity or uniqueness compared to Dunmer, and there really is no reason to pick Altmer over Dunmer. Compared to live where picking one over the other is a trade off and both are viable, the pts changes are terrible.


The Altmer 5% dmg reduction while casting or channeling is also only useful on magplars.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457727/lowest-resource-restore-belongs-to-the-dunmer#latest

I address exactly this in my post. These are my proposed changes. Give it a look through, lmk what u think in the comments.

Stx

I feel the imperial racials are quite weak compared to other races from a numerical standpoint. I like the direction you are taking with red diamond being a hybrid recovery passive, it opens up the race to the possibility of a stamina dps or a better pvp option. I also like the shield cost reduction because imperials are known for their skills with shields. But cost reduction alone is pretty weak.

My suggestion would be to boost the recovery of red diamond by a bit, from 333 up to 500. This would bump imperials closer to other races from a numerical standpoint, and make the recovery actually appealing.

I also think the 5% shield cost reduction should also include 5% damage mitigation from blocking. 5% is small enough to not force tanks to play imperial but it's a lot more noticable than just cost reduction, which is basically nothing.

technohic

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

^ ZOS decided Nords are tanks, you will receive second horn several seconds earlier.
Also there is one important detail about resistance. This 4k sums with other resistances, while previous 6% were extracted as 6% from already mitigated damage.. so you may invest less in resistances as tank and spent on something useful for dps of your groupmates ^^

So tanks are not going to push the armor cap anyway? Then why lower health than "DPS" races?

How long does it take for warhorn to come up now? It will take 10 seconds to even see a return of 5 so I say roughly 83 seconds for warhorn without any other ultimate buff at 3 ultimate a second. Nord passive makes this 3.5 a second ASSUMING you get hit right at 10 seconds so it would be 71 seconds if you have a second after cooldown, it could be as long as 78 seconds.

Now say you wanted to run DBOS in PVP. 40 seconds normal. 34 seconds for nord best case. 37 seconds worst case.

Or if we look at a cheaper ultimate in say empowering sweeps to be tanky. 25 seconds without nord. 21 seconds best case. 23 seconds worse case.

You are not going to be hit every second right in cooldown, but maybe close also maybe you go a lot longer than 1 second I assumed as worse case. Point is, it's completely situational and really loses value the cheaper the ultimate. If diversity is the goal, Nords only being tanks who only use warhorn is not very good. Never mind the less built in resources in health or stam or sustain to support blocking and sponging.

Nox_Noir

PVP bosmers want the stealth back, PVE bosmers wanna be en par with the other stam dps races. None of these groups are happy with the current situation.

CurvedSwords123

I think the Redguard snare reduction is going to amount to no real world effect in PvP. I love the idea of our utility passive being anti CC, but this falls flat.

The WEP reduction passive for Redguards is way too limiting, it should be expanded to Fighters Guild as well at the very least. Either that or just make it a Stam ability reduction.

Orcs I think are awesome (versatile,defense/speed/all the dmg stats/life tap) as is, Redguards and Bosmers need to be brought up to their PvP performance in PTS before this goes live.

blackdragons27

Oh Hunter's Eye.... you still make the rage flames high...

Its not the roll dodge part, we all knew that was going to take a nerf... Don't even mind the increase to penetration (though kinda wish it was a bit longer than 4 sec, cause you know... small elf... roll fast... world spins... sometimes takes 2-3 secs to figure out where in Nirn I landed...by then the passive will have passed...)

Its the stealth detection that....UGH!!!.... The only thing I can think of is that ZOS wants to hold true to telling us they're keeping part of the stealth passives for both bosmer and khajiit, but they don't want to change their "new" vision for the bosmer...meaning us bosmers will be stuck with part of a passive that's beyond useless in the majority of the games content by their own definition of the many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about... I find myself vexed as to how this seems to be a balance in any way shape or from...

BlueRaven

Nox_Noir wrote: »

PVP bosmers want the stealth back, PVE bosmers wanna be en par with the other stam dps races. None of these groups are happy with the current situation.

Well PvE bosmers want their stealth back as well. :-)

EDIT: Bosmers not Boosters. Sorry spell check error.

Silver_Strider

zaria wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Personally not a fan of these changes.

Altmer was fine before and didn't really need to be nerfed (if anything, a slight buff to Spell Recharge from 575 to 590 would've been the wiser decision) but the current form of it isn't particularly useful nor does it make much sense. Revert the change entirely.

Dunmer, I feel, is now too front loaded. With only 125 less resources than Altmer and Orc, while having both their 258 Weapon/Spell Damage buff, Dunmer just feels like they received too much of a buff and now sort of overstep the boundaries of being a solid Dual Spec role as the difference in Altmer's Damage and Dunmer is almost non existent while also having 2k extra stamina and Fire Resistance. I'd like to see their Max Stats brought down to 1500 each, while also giving them some slight regen buff of 75 to Magic and Stamina regen on their Fire Resistance passive so that they aren't completely powerless.

Orc changes just sort of feel off. They're a bit overloaded in Racial Passives, which I'm fine with adjusting but their current iteration feels a lot less unique than it once was. I could've seen a Health increase to 1000-1500 in exchange for losing the 4% healing received, while also slightly lowering their resource return from 380 down to 300 Health and Stamina but the current iteration just feels like an old version of Imperial with slightly better damage.

Speaking of Imperial, the Red Diamond change is exactly what I wanted to see be done with Imperial, although I kind of wish that they would have gotten a magic buff to go alone with it to complement Imperial Battlemages more. Just giving Imperial an even split of 1k Magic+Stamina would satisfy me entirely with Imperial as a whole.

Khajiit did not need a buff, like at all. It's damage is already among the highest of all DPS races and coupled with the Shadow Mundus Buff, I don't see this being a good change in terms of balance. It should just be reverted.

I honestly wish you'd stop Shoehorning Argonians into Healers. For the love of god, it's among the weakest bits of lore for Argonians but instead of augmenting their rich lore as Shadowscales (which is constantly flaunted in our faces in game) or their mastery of Guerilla Warfare, we just get more of the same Overhealing crap as always. Cut the Max Magic in half, to make room for some Stamina, reduce Healing done to 3% and give us a conditional Weapon/Spell Damage upon healing or consuming a potion. Just something to help out Argonian DPS and make it more lore friendly.

Bosmer change I'm on the fence. I don't think its bad but I don't think its good either. If ZOS is worried about Bosmer being too OP, how about giving the 1500 Penetration to Bow abilities only. It's lore friendly, not overtly powerful but still useful to a point that it gives a unique flare to Bosmer and makes it so that their DPS does get a mild boost to help Bosmer keep up. I'm still of the mindset that the speed buff shouldn't be a thing and would've preferred that Bosmer got the snare reduction Redguard got instead since it would make more sense. I've no opinion on the Stealth Detection passive but would like to see Bosmer retain some of their own stealth based gameplay so maybe change it to a sneak speed buff instead so that Bosmer are quicker to steal vs a Khajiit being harder to detect.

Redguard didn't really need the snare reduction personally but it's a minor thing overall.

Agree 100% outside the Khajiit part, undo the shadow mundus change solves it.
Perhaps also Piercing Spear change down the line, and it probably come they don't want the race=class setup.

The Shadow Mundus is long since overdue for a buff. It's inferior in every way to every other DPS related Mundus, even on Khajiit, and needs this buff to be even remotely worth running. The same cannot be said of Khajiit however, whom have exceeded beyond practically all other magic race BEFORE being buffed further, creating an even larger performance gap; It's just not balanced otherwise.

dodgehopper_ESO

ToRelax wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I am concerned about Nord. How is it other classes get more stamina and just as much health, then something like resource or health return, and speed, and weapon damage? If we say just for the sake of argument more armor = weapon damage and Ultimate gain = resource return, and movement buffs = chilled resist, then the stats are definitely lower. Id argue that those are not equal but there it is anyway

Then the ultimate gen is 10 seconds while most returns are at around 5 seconds. I'd rather it be like 3 ultimate every 5 seconds than 5 every 10 seconds.

I am also concerned how do we test this? Seems like it would be hard to get a practical sample of how much chilled resist actually does or if ultimate is actually generating better to substantiate the performance.

That ult regen is far superior to Orc's measly health return. That's more comparable to the frost resistance.
Races that get stamina or magicka returns don't get as many max stats.

They're both better than Imperial.

VyPR

These changes have been all over the place and seem to be causing a lot of stress to the player base. What's the point of all this?

majulook

VyPR wrote: »

These changes have been all over the place and seem to be causing a lot of stress to the player base. What's the point of all this?

Changing the game so players will have a new goal to chase, be it new gear, changing a existing character, or making a new character. Studies show that games need to make more content or make changes to the game be cause players will get bored with the same old thing over and over. New content is expensive to create so that happens a couple of time a year, changes like this are cheaper.

Most of the players have ESO+ on a multiple month plan, this is a player investment, that will keep most player in the game. Even if they do not like the changes at first. When the did the change with light and heavy attack, everyone got upset, and cried that "The game was going too be horrible". but in the end a vast majority of the players excepted the changes and continued with the game.

Marketing depts are a much more important part of businesses now days. Have you noticed how stores change the locations of items periodically. They do this so you will spend more time in the store, because the longer you are in the store the more likely you will buy something. Changes to the game like this racial change is sort of the same idea. Make a change to the game that makes the player have to change the way they play, makes the players stay with the game.

Will they lose some players maybe a few (IMHO a very, very few), but not anywhere close to enough to make any difference to the bottom line. And with the new class coming out, this change will keep the end game players moving to getting gear for the characters they create for that class. So that when they get the new class character to end game level, they have most of the gear already for them.

Basically changes like this keep the player mass playing the game....

sionIV

Imperial is the worst race at the moment, with Nord coming in on a close second. I would prefer something like this instead of the changes that we have now.

Imperial

1500 Magicka
1500 Stamina
1000 Health
Red Diamond: When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 400 Health, Magicka, Stamina and you gain 1500 Physical and Spell Resistance for 5 seconds. This effect has a 5 second cooldown.

soynegroyque

I have a proposal for a system that could be implemented to benefit all parties and allow for more freedom for future changes to racials.

One of the main concerns about racials is whether they will keep changing in the future.
Races as well have them are not easily changeable unlike gear sets, attribute points and skill points. Choosing a race fit for a certain role and then have it become a whole different thing is concerning when the only way to correct it is via that cash shop.

My suggestion is to have a system similar account crafting style account unlock.

How will it work?
Leveling a character to lv50 will unlock the characters race as a permanent account bound unlock.
A player may change their current character's racial passives for any other set of racial passives that have been unlocked in the account.
Example:
Player levels up a breton to lv 50.
Unlock the ability for other characters to opt into using the bretons' passives.
Later they create a dunmer.
The dunmer may now reject or touggle off all dunmer passives and use all passives of the breton race while still being a dunmer.

Things to note.
-This swap will NOT change the characters physical appearance. You may still need to purchase a race change token to completely change your race and appearance.
-You may NOT mix racials, You either have all the passives for race A or all the passives for race B. No in betweens in other to keep balance between races rather than the tailored selection of their specific passives.

The process
The ability to change passives should be more difficult than changing CP. And should stay in line with other types of respecs like skillpoint. It should not be something that can be changed on the go or inexpensive enough for people to be swapping then every time.
Suggestion:
A Shrine or table which will require gold or a premium currency (Passive Change Tokens?) working like the outfit station.


How can ZoS profit out of such system?
People who want to take shortcuts through this system instead of leveling a whole character to lv50 may purchase the racial passives in the store individually or in discounted packs.
Example:
1500 crowns individual races
3500 for a whole alliance
8500 for all 9 base races

Additionally possible new currency similar to outfit tokens.

Other Benefits
ZoS may now make drastic changes to races without having to give race changes for free as the player base can change it using gold or passive change tokens

Min/Maxers may fine tune their builds as they see fit.

Casual/New players are given an incentive to level up more characters, buy more characters slots, or buy the races.

Players can experiment with other races, allowing them to find racial passives that better fit them.

Less player performance discrimination based on looks alone. That guy is a *insert race* *insert class* DPs, kick him.

Role players may change passives and stay in character. And similar fashion driven players don't have to give up function over form.

This game has evolved to the point where looks don't actually match the function (style change)
Given the vestige is a soulless shell, it doesn't seem too far fetched for them to be linked with the other characters they share their CP with on a different level.

Vapirko

sionIV wrote: »

Imperial is the worst race at the moment, with Nord coming in on a close second. I would prefer something like this instead of the changes that we have now.

Imperial

1500 Magicka
1500 Stamina
1000 Health
Red Diamond: When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 400 Health, Magicka, Stamina and you gain 1500 Physical and Spell Resistance for 5 seconds. This effect has a 5 second cooldown.

Get it through your head that not every race is based on top DPS parses. People like to play Tanks and healers as well. How is Nord one of the worst races? As far as I know a lot of PvPers and tanks are quite happy with the Nord changes. Imperials need work yes, but is ZOS going to make them a top DPS race? I doubt it.

BlueRaven

majulook wrote: »

VyPR wrote: »

These changes have been all over the place and seem to be causing a lot of stress to the player base. What's the point of all this?

Changing the game so players will have a new goal to chase, be it new gear, changing a existing character, or making a new character. Studies show that games need to make more content or make changes to the game be cause players will get bored with the same old thing over and over. New content is expensive to create so that happens a couple of time a year, changes like this are cheaper.

Most of the players have ESO+ on a multiple month plan, this is a player investment, that will keep most player in the game. Even if they do not like the changes at first. When the did the change with light and heavy attack, everyone got upset, and cried that "The game was going too be horrible". but in the end a vast majority of the players excepted the changes and continued with the game.

Marketing depts are a much more important part of businesses now days. Have you noticed how stores change the locations of items periodically. They do this so you will spend more time in the store, because the longer you are in the store the more likely you will buy something. Changes to the game like this racial change is sort of the same idea. Make a change to the game that makes the player have to change the way they play, makes the players stay with the game.

Will they lose some players maybe a few (IMHO a very, very few), but not anywhere close to enough to make any difference to the bottom line. And with the new class coming out, this change will keep the end game players moving to getting gear for the characters they create for that class. So that when they get the new class character to end game level, they have most of the gear already for them.

Basically changes like this keep the player mass playing the game....

This only works if the players in question have not developed an emotional attachment to their characters. Five years with their main, they develop an attachment. If they wanted a "change" they could have just rolled a new toon at any time. Being "forced" into a change is not a terrific way of making these players stay.

Marketing departments will tell you that people don't like change. (For further reference look up "New Coke" or "Crystal Pepsi".) And just upending the tables and thinking people will start saying "Oh! It's like a whole new game! I think I will become a tank!" is not realistic.

What is more realistic is that these people, who have put a lot of time and money into this game, will resent having their gameplay disrupted in this way. A way that is outside of their control.

Change like adding a new class is a nice change. They have a freedom of falling back to whats known, a safe space if you will. That is a positive. A place of comfort. If they don't like the necromancer they can go back to their main.

A change in which their favorite toon no longer plays like they like is a bad change. It's like having your house burn down and someone saying that you will like your new house much better. They will resent it and long for their old home.

If players feel they are being forced into a new race, they will resent it. If players are presented with the "opportunity" to try a new race they may like it.

Right now this is a forced change, and you are seeing the resentment on the forums. Keep in mind only a small faction of the player base visits these forums. Players in general have no idea what is coming. And when this change gets thrown at them they will be truly upset. Just like finding their house burning down.

zaria

Silver_Strider wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Personally not a fan of these changes.

Altmer was fine before and didn't really need to be nerfed (if anything, a slight buff to Spell Recharge from 575 to 590 would've been the wiser decision) but the current form of it isn't particularly useful nor does it make much sense. Revert the change entirely.

Dunmer, I feel, is now too front loaded. With only 125 less resources than Altmer and Orc, while having both their 258 Weapon/Spell Damage buff, Dunmer just feels like they received too much of a buff and now sort of overstep the boundaries of being a solid Dual Spec role as the difference in Altmer's Damage and Dunmer is almost non existent while also having 2k extra stamina and Fire Resistance. I'd like to see their Max Stats brought down to 1500 each, while also giving them some slight regen buff of 75 to Magic and Stamina regen on their Fire Resistance passive so that they aren't completely powerless.

Orc changes just sort of feel off. They're a bit overloaded in Racial Passives, which I'm fine with adjusting but their current iteration feels a lot less unique than it once was. I could've seen a Health increase to 1000-1500 in exchange for losing the 4% healing received, while also slightly lowering their resource return from 380 down to 300 Health and Stamina but the current iteration just feels like an old version of Imperial with slightly better damage.

Speaking of Imperial, the Red Diamond change is exactly what I wanted to see be done with Imperial, although I kind of wish that they would have gotten a magic buff to go alone with it to complement Imperial Battlemages more. Just giving Imperial an even split of 1k Magic+Stamina would satisfy me entirely with Imperial as a whole.

Khajiit did not need a buff, like at all. It's damage is already among the highest of all DPS races and coupled with the Shadow Mundus Buff, I don't see this being a good change in terms of balance. It should just be reverted.

I honestly wish you'd stop Shoehorning Argonians into Healers. For the love of god, it's among the weakest bits of lore for Argonians but instead of augmenting their rich lore as Shadowscales (which is constantly flaunted in our faces in game) or their mastery of Guerilla Warfare, we just get more of the same Overhealing crap as always. Cut the Max Magic in half, to make room for some Stamina, reduce Healing done to 3% and give us a conditional Weapon/Spell Damage upon healing or consuming a potion. Just something to help out Argonian DPS and make it more lore friendly.

Bosmer change I'm on the fence. I don't think its bad but I don't think its good either. If ZOS is worried about Bosmer being too OP, how about giving the 1500 Penetration to Bow abilities only. It's lore friendly, not overtly powerful but still useful to a point that it gives a unique flare to Bosmer and makes it so that their DPS does get a mild boost to help Bosmer keep up. I'm still of the mindset that the speed buff shouldn't be a thing and would've preferred that Bosmer got the snare reduction Redguard got instead since it would make more sense. I've no opinion on the Stealth Detection passive but would like to see Bosmer retain some of their own stealth based gameplay so maybe change it to a sneak speed buff instead so that Bosmer are quicker to steal vs a Khajiit being harder to detect.

Redguard didn't really need the snare reduction personally but it's a minor thing overall.

Agree 100% outside the Khajiit part, undo the shadow mundus change solves it.
Perhaps also Piercing Spear change down the line, and it probably come they don't want the race=class setup.

The Shadow Mundus is long since overdue for a buff. It's inferior in every way to every other DPS related Mundus, even on Khajiit, and needs this buff to be even remotely worth running. The same cannot be said of Khajiit however, whom have exceeded beyond practically all other magic race BEFORE being buffed further, creating an even larger performance gap; It's just not balanced otherwise.

Khajiit is only ahead on templars because of piercing spear +10% crit damage, change this passive if needed.
The latest buff was to compensate for nerf to stealth and low base stats who will not benefit so much from the new +20% from cp.

Agree on Altmer, unneeded nerf, revert it perhaps even buff them

Dunmer look decent perhaps a bit sustain as you say.

Argonians, agree not shoehorn into healer role. 3-4% healing done or received.

Agree on Bosmer its the other race who is an mess now, static penetration would work.

Silver_Strider

zaria wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Personally not a fan of these changes.

Altmer was fine before and didn't really need to be nerfed (if anything, a slight buff to Spell Recharge from 575 to 590 would've been the wiser decision) but the current form of it isn't particularly useful nor does it make much sense. Revert the change entirely.

Dunmer, I feel, is now too front loaded. With only 125 less resources than Altmer and Orc, while having both their 258 Weapon/Spell Damage buff, Dunmer just feels like they received too much of a buff and now sort of overstep the boundaries of being a solid Dual Spec role as the difference in Altmer's Damage and Dunmer is almost non existent while also having 2k extra stamina and Fire Resistance. I'd like to see their Max Stats brought down to 1500 each, while also giving them some slight regen buff of 75 to Magic and Stamina regen on their Fire Resistance passive so that they aren't completely powerless.

Orc changes just sort of feel off. They're a bit overloaded in Racial Passives, which I'm fine with adjusting but their current iteration feels a lot less unique than it once was. I could've seen a Health increase to 1000-1500 in exchange for losing the 4% healing received, while also slightly lowering their resource return from 380 down to 300 Health and Stamina but the current iteration just feels like an old version of Imperial with slightly better damage.

Speaking of Imperial, the Red Diamond change is exactly what I wanted to see be done with Imperial, although I kind of wish that they would have gotten a magic buff to go alone with it to complement Imperial Battlemages more. Just giving Imperial an even split of 1k Magic+Stamina would satisfy me entirely with Imperial as a whole.

Khajiit did not need a buff, like at all. It's damage is already among the highest of all DPS races and coupled with the Shadow Mundus Buff, I don't see this being a good change in terms of balance. It should just be reverted.

I honestly wish you'd stop Shoehorning Argonians into Healers. For the love of god, it's among the weakest bits of lore for Argonians but instead of augmenting their rich lore as Shadowscales (which is constantly flaunted in our faces in game) or their mastery of Guerilla Warfare, we just get more of the same Overhealing crap as always. Cut the Max Magic in half, to make room for some Stamina, reduce Healing done to 3% and give us a conditional Weapon/Spell Damage upon healing or consuming a potion. Just something to help out Argonian DPS and make it more lore friendly.

Bosmer change I'm on the fence. I don't think its bad but I don't think its good either. If ZOS is worried about Bosmer being too OP, how about giving the 1500 Penetration to Bow abilities only. It's lore friendly, not overtly powerful but still useful to a point that it gives a unique flare to Bosmer and makes it so that their DPS does get a mild boost to help Bosmer keep up. I'm still of the mindset that the speed buff shouldn't be a thing and would've preferred that Bosmer got the snare reduction Redguard got instead since it would make more sense. I've no opinion on the Stealth Detection passive but would like to see Bosmer retain some of their own stealth based gameplay so maybe change it to a sneak speed buff instead so that Bosmer are quicker to steal vs a Khajiit being harder to detect.

Redguard didn't really need the snare reduction personally but it's a minor thing overall.

Agree 100% outside the Khajiit part, undo the shadow mundus change solves it.
Perhaps also Piercing Spear change down the line, and it probably come they don't want the race=class setup.

The Shadow Mundus is long since overdue for a buff. It's inferior in every way to every other DPS related Mundus, even on Khajiit, and needs this buff to be even remotely worth running. The same cannot be said of Khajiit however, whom have exceeded beyond practically all other magic race BEFORE being buffed further, creating an even larger performance gap; It's just not balanced otherwise.

Khajiit is only ahead on templars because of piercing spear +10% crit damage, change this passive if needed.
The latest buff was to compensate for nerf to stealth and low base stats who will not benefit so much from the new +20% from cp.

Khajiit is getting buffed just by getting Max resources in the 1st place since its never had them before, to say nothing of the added Spell Crit its getting and tri-stat regen. The stealth nerf was more a reversion to the current Live version so hardly a nerf at all. Khajiit is currently ahead on both Templars and NBs, the 2 most powerful DPS classes so coupling with the improved Shadow Mundus AND the recent buffs, Khajiit will be far and away the best DPS race and the only race we'll be seeing in end game trials. Nerfing Piercing Spear just downgrades Templars as a whole, making NB the uncontested best DPS class again, while doing nothing to suppress Khajiit's prominence in that class as well. The 4.3.2 changes on Khajiit need to be reverted.

Cinbri

Cinbri wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

1. So incase of dunmers ZOS decided to push offensive Shacklebreaker hybrid set stat over original tanking Trainee hybrid set stat, right decision to achieve for Dunmers its lore-wise and in some cases RP state of versatile raw disruptive power. No need changes here unless races will be buffed again next pts.

2. Imperials new Red Diamond looks balanced for its effect - 333stats over 5sec is 333/5=66.6*2=133 regen of hybrid tristats with 2k hp and stamina. While argonians have 4k/45=8.8.*2=178 regen of hybrid tristats(that can be pushed in cost of max stats) with 1k hp and mana. And both have additional bonuses. So, Imperial is more raw stat and less regen, while Argonians is more regen with less raw stats. However argonians have not just disease resistance but also immunity to Diseased effect, if on CP it can be averagely equal to max stat scaling of Imperials, but on noCP pvp there is no CP scaling and Imperials outshined by lizards, need to be done something here. Another reason why noCP and CP can't coexist.

3. Redguards snare resistance - its very risky to put such passive. Right now it is already not "small reduction to snare potency" because it copy of entire 2nd level passive of warden - Icy Aura and thus its strength equal to entire passive. But main risk is that if/when in future zos will address snare problem and as part of it will overhaul how snares and snare resistances calculating and interact with each other - this already strong passive might become overpowered and will need race adjustment again. Need to decrease its effectiveness to 1st level of Icy Aura and make it "Reduce the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 7%" similar to how Bretons new bonus to armor is half the potency of major buff.

Agreed. Good feedback here. What do you want to see on imperial?

I don't think zos will bother with it since noCP pvp is too minor part of game (yet more healthy ) as most content is CP-enabled and with their plans to rebalance CP they might as well delete it in distant future.

Actually I know what to do - undo one of the argonians boosts. They were buffed on both passives to equalize them on CP with its scaling, but there is no CP scaling in noCP pvp. That means while they should be equal to others on CP, they also pushed to automatically overperform any other race on noCP, i.e. same status quo as they now.

Gnortranermara

Probably beating a dead horse, but count me among those objecting to the High Elf sustain nerf. I seriously hope you're considering reverting that change and giving us a proper main-stat passive.

One way to fix this mess is to add Disease Resistance as a utility passive to High Elf. It fits with lore (Oblivion) and it would be quite useful for PvP. You clearly think that High Elf values are too high, so you could attach this to one of them and lower it accordingly without rendering it completely useless to us. We don't want an off-stat passive!

zaria

Silver_Strider wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Personally not a fan of these changes.

Altmer was fine before and didn't really need to be nerfed (if anything, a slight buff to Spell Recharge from 575 to 590 would've been the wiser decision) but the current form of it isn't particularly useful nor does it make much sense. Revert the change entirely.

Dunmer, I feel, is now too front loaded. With only 125 less resources than Altmer and Orc, while having both their 258 Weapon/Spell Damage buff, Dunmer just feels like they received too much of a buff and now sort of overstep the boundaries of being a solid Dual Spec role as the difference in Altmer's Damage and Dunmer is almost non existent while also having 2k extra stamina and Fire Resistance. I'd like to see their Max Stats brought down to 1500 each, while also giving them some slight regen buff of 75 to Magic and Stamina regen on their Fire Resistance passive so that they aren't completely powerless.

Orc changes just sort of feel off. They're a bit overloaded in Racial Passives, which I'm fine with adjusting but their current iteration feels a lot less unique than it once was. I could've seen a Health increase to 1000-1500 in exchange for losing the 4% healing received, while also slightly lowering their resource return from 380 down to 300 Health and Stamina but the current iteration just feels like an old version of Imperial with slightly better damage.

Speaking of Imperial, the Red Diamond change is exactly what I wanted to see be done with Imperial, although I kind of wish that they would have gotten a magic buff to go alone with it to complement Imperial Battlemages more. Just giving Imperial an even split of 1k Magic+Stamina would satisfy me entirely with Imperial as a whole.

Khajiit did not need a buff, like at all. It's damage is already among the highest of all DPS races and coupled with the Shadow Mundus Buff, I don't see this being a good change in terms of balance. It should just be reverted.

I honestly wish you'd stop Shoehorning Argonians into Healers. For the love of god, it's among the weakest bits of lore for Argonians but instead of augmenting their rich lore as Shadowscales (which is constantly flaunted in our faces in game) or their mastery of Guerilla Warfare, we just get more of the same Overhealing crap as always. Cut the Max Magic in half, to make room for some Stamina, reduce Healing done to 3% and give us a conditional Weapon/Spell Damage upon healing or consuming a potion. Just something to help out Argonian DPS and make it more lore friendly.

Bosmer change I'm on the fence. I don't think its bad but I don't think its good either. If ZOS is worried about Bosmer being too OP, how about giving the 1500 Penetration to Bow abilities only. It's lore friendly, not overtly powerful but still useful to a point that it gives a unique flare to Bosmer and makes it so that their DPS does get a mild boost to help Bosmer keep up. I'm still of the mindset that the speed buff shouldn't be a thing and would've preferred that Bosmer got the snare reduction Redguard got instead since it would make more sense. I've no opinion on the Stealth Detection passive but would like to see Bosmer retain some of their own stealth based gameplay so maybe change it to a sneak speed buff instead so that Bosmer are quicker to steal vs a Khajiit being harder to detect.

Redguard didn't really need the snare reduction personally but it's a minor thing overall.

Agree 100% outside the Khajiit part, undo the shadow mundus change solves it.
Perhaps also Piercing Spear change down the line, and it probably come they don't want the race=class setup.

The Shadow Mundus is long since overdue for a buff. It's inferior in every way to every other DPS related Mundus, even on Khajiit, and needs this buff to be even remotely worth running. The same cannot be said of Khajiit however, whom have exceeded beyond practically all other magic race BEFORE being buffed further, creating an even larger performance gap; It's just not balanced otherwise.

Khajiit is only ahead on templars because of piercing spear +10% crit damage, change this passive if needed.
The latest buff was to compensate for nerf to stealth and low base stats who will not benefit so much from the new +20% from cp.

Khajiit is getting buffed just by getting Max resources in the 1st place since its never had them before, to say nothing of the added Spell Crit its getting and tri-stat regen. The stealth nerf was more a reversion to the current Live version so hardly a nerf at all. Khajiit is currently ahead on both Templars and NBs, the 2 most powerful DPS classes so coupling with the improved Shadow Mundus AND the recent buffs, Khajiit will be far and away the best DPS race and the only race we'll be seeing in end game trials. Nerfing Piercing Spear just downgrades Templars as a whole, making NB the uncontested best DPS class again, while doing nothing to suppress Khajiit's prominence in that class as well. The 4.3.2 changes on Khajiit need to be reverted.

The stealth was part of the race set bonus calculation in 4.3.0 who is used for balancing.
Recommended changing Piercing Spear to another effect not nerfing, to avoid an one race - one class setting.
It was also stated that part of the reason for the buff is that Khajiit benefit less of the cp resource buff on primary stat.

And we know that they do, wait until people have used their race change tokens, then nerf shaddow.

Nifty2g

So by the looks of things we have stand out races for Tanks, Healers & DD with the random here and there Races.

Nord changes are all very good for tanking for sure, the ult regen is really unique and isn't solely focused for tanking it can be used for a wide variety of things but most tanks will look at that and pick it. Even though what was said in the class rep notes are very true, ultimates (warhorns) are held for specific times to get the most damage, but even so it's nice you guys are keeping an eye for specific tank passives.

Imperial changes, I'm really not a fan of this at all, the red diamond passive is incredibly underwhelming. Since this is obviously a passive that is aimed at tanks and the race is mostly centred around tanks. The resource restore is far too little to be great for anything, 333 health won't be saving anything if you're built for tanking with over 40,000 health. The resource return is also quite underwhelming considering most tanks either heavy attack or use balance for their resource return, maybe take out health from this passive if it means restoring more magicka & stamina added to the passive iit could be quite useful. And lastly the reduced block and bash reduction. This would have been nice if tanking wasn't changed so much over the past years, not many tanks block anymore, they're mostly made to be health sponges and light attacking for uptimes etc.

The Imperial passives just seem quite empty one of the changes I was thinking about was making Conditioning have both Max Stamina and Max Health (2,000). And having Tough be a different kind of passive for defensive stats, this could be anything from healing received, damage reductions, phsycial/spell resistance. And also including something else to the passive for example something like movement speed is incredibly useful for tanks but not solely focused on tanking builds it can be used for anything. Personally I would love for Tough to have movement speed and a damage reduction part to it, it would make the race very unique and a wide variety of builds could make use of it while being aimed to be a tank sort of race. I'd like to mention that Orc also has a movement speed bonus to it, but it also has a condition to proc it being while sprinting. My suggestion for movement speed on Imperial would be to have it always active but 6% since there is no conditioning.

Red Diamond seeing as from the Developer Comments it was made for diversity, keeping the restore stats is alright but if Health being part of it is lowering the stat return from Magicka & Stamina then Health may as well just be removed from it and doubling the resource return could be quite useful seeing as it has a cooldown of 5 seconds, most of the time it's doubtful it'll be used on cooldown.

Arciris

"zaria wrote: »

Khajiit is only ahead on templars because of piercing spear +10% crit damage, change this passive if needed.
The latest buff was to compensate for nerf to stealth and low base stats who will not benefit so much from the new +20% from cp.

Agree on Altmer, unneeded nerf, revert it perhaps even buff them

Dunmer look decent perhaps a bit sustain as you say.

Argonians, agree not shoehorn into healer role. 3-4% healing done or received.

Agree on Bosmer its the other race who is an mess now, static penetration would work.

Why nerf Templar because of one single race? Leave Piercing Spear alone, it is fine.
People freaking out about Khajiit forget that:
- in most test thus far, the kitties only come on top within a +500 dps margin from the second. 500 DPS!!! The sky isn't falling, you don't need to play a cat for anything, If I had to choose an optimal race for my Templar, it would be Breton hands down.
- Khajiit had 10% Critical rating for both Spell and Weapon damage at launch. They were meant to be great damage dealers in both specs since the game conception because it is Lore friendly.
- Khajiit are only good for PvE. They are a trash race for PvP, especially since they don't even have a damage from stealth bonus anymore. At least with Breton (magika) or Orc (stamina) you can tackle both end game PvE and end game PvP

Conclusion: Khajiit is fine, no changes needed (no buffs, no nerfs) - other races still need a slight buff

zaria

Arciris wrote: »

"zaria wrote: »

Khajiit is only ahead on templars because of piercing spear +10% crit damage, change this passive if needed.
The latest buff was to compensate for nerf to stealth and low base stats who will not benefit so much from the new +20% from cp.

Agree on Altmer, unneeded nerf, revert it perhaps even buff them

Dunmer look decent perhaps a bit sustain as you say.

Argonians, agree not shoehorn into healer role. 3-4% healing done or received.

Agree on Bosmer its the other race who is an mess now, static penetration would work.

Why nerf Templar because of one single race? Leave Piercing Spear alone, it is fine.
People freaking out about Khajiit forget that:
- in most test thus far, the kitties only come on top within a +500 dps margin from the second. 500 DPS!!! The sky isn't falling, you don't need to play a cat for anything, If I had to choose an optimal race for my Templar, it would be Breton hands down.
- Khajiit had 10% Critical rating for both Spell and Weapon damage at launch. They were meant to be great damage dealers in both specs since the game conception because it is Lore friendly.
- Khajiit are only good for PvE. They are a trash race for PvP, especially since they don't even have a damage from stealth bonus anymore. At least with Breton (magika) or Orc (stamina) you can tackle both end game PvE and end game PvP

Conclusion: Khajiit is fine, no changes needed (no buffs, no nerfs) - other races still need a slight buff

Never asked for an nerf for templar.
Simply change piercing spear to something else like crit chance if Khajit templar got OP, a lot to avoid an one race - one class setting who we know become an problem down the line.

However they will not do class changes this round only races, class changes will come next update.
Can be smart to save some race change tokens.

The_Last_Titan

sionIV wrote: »

Imperial is the worst race at the moment, with Nord coming in on a close second. I would prefer something like this instead of the changes that we have now.

Imperial

1500 Magicka
1500 Stamina
1000 Health
Red Diamond: When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 400 Health, Magicka, Stamina and you gain 1500 Physical and Spell Resistance for 5 seconds. This effect has a 5 second cooldown.

that proposal would still be 8% weapon ability reduction, 500 stam, and 550 stam every 5 sec behind redguard.., i think the best option would be give imperials 5-6% all ability cost reduction and 500 stam/mag, would still be behind stam and mag as dps, still be viable and good tanks, dps, everything

The_Last_Titan

i've been thinking about imperials/dunmer too much i should move on to altmer...

Holycannoli

The_Last_Titan wrote: »

i've been thinking about imperials/dunmer too much i should move on to altmer...

Altmer are beyond screwed right now. At least the change to Red Diamond was a step in the right direction.

Arciris

zaria wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

"zaria wrote: »

Khajiit is only ahead on templars because of piercing spear +10% crit damage, change this passive if needed.

Why nerf Templar because of one single race? Leave Piercing Spear alone, it is fine.
People freaking out about Khajiit forget that:
- in most test thus far, the kitties only come on top within a +500 dps margin from the second. 500 DPS!!! The sky isn't falling, you don't need to play a cat for anything, If I had to choose an optimal race for my Templar, it would be Breton hands down.
- Khajiit had 10% Critical rating for both Spell and Weapon damage at launch. They were meant to be great damage dealers in both specs since the game conception because it is Lore friendly.
- Khajiit are only good for PvE. They are a trash race for PvP, especially since they don't even have a damage from stealth bonus anymore. At least with Breton (magika) or Orc (stamina) you can tackle both end game PvE and end game PvP

Conclusion: Khajiit is fine, no changes needed (no buffs, no nerfs) - other races still need a slight buff

Never asked for an nerf for templar.
Simply change piercing spear to something else like crit chance if Khajit templar got OP, a lot to avoid an one race - one class setting who we know become an problem down the line.

However they will not do class changes this round only races, class changes will come next update.
Can be smart to save some race change tokens.

But why ask to change a Class to address any hypothetical issue with a race? It's like asking for DK to deal Magic damage instead of Fire because of it's (former) affinity with Dunmer fire damage. To me this makes no sense.

Plus Khajiit Magplar is not OP. A small 500 dps margin is not Over Powered, especially when that margin only occurs in ideal and very specific scenarios.
Khajiit Magplar in PvP is very far from ideal. Khajiit Magplar in 4 man PvE is probably third or second best choice at most, and that's in DD role, healers have better choices than Khajiit.
On top of that, it's not like Khajiit Magplar is going to outDPS Magblades in the very same specif setting where they shine the most (highly coordinated Trials)

The thing is: I don't even see an issue here.

Others races may present issue, being underpowered or overtuned, but Khajiit is just spot on.

Tyrion87

The new spell recharge is a dead passive for Altmer as in PvE magicka characters have their stamina full most of the time and even if not, they just don't need stam regen at all. Even in PvP the stam gain is too little to be noticeable and meaningful.

Please, consider changing this passive into something like: Altmer get back their magicka (or highest resource) either when it drops below certain % or when they are hit with a magicka direct dmg ability (in both cases with a cooldown). Alternatively just ditch the sustain from Altmer and give them a little bonus to spell penetration (even a conditional bonus).