PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

Lord-Otto

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

4.2.2 MagSorc Overload feedback

After you have solved the most pressing concern for Magsorc healers and Petsorcs by changing the daedric minions to work like the NB´s shade (summoned for a duration of x), you could make Light Overload attack desirable without changing its damage:

Instead of changing the damage of OL light attacks, change its damage modell: Make them a beam zipping from the hands of the caster to the enemy, like Crushing Shock, just with a cool, flashy lightning animation.

Another beam attack would greatly increase the usefulness of the Sorc´s skill set in 1vs1 situations.

so you want another soul assault ultimate, that cannot be reflected?
LOL

So you want a stamina Flame Whip?
LOL

Zer0oo

can we maybe extend the pts? Quite a few changes only did go in in the end and some things are even bugged right now. Not sure how you are suppose to provide any meaningful feedback to shields for example if they are not working right now the way they should.

ezio45

Zer0oo wrote: »

can we maybe extend the pts? Quite a few changes only did go in in the end and some things are even bugged right now. Not sure how you are suppose to provide any meaningful feedback to shields for example if they are not working right now the way they should.

Ya i think this would be good, we got alot of changes at week 3 and like you said shields are bugged.

JobooAGS

maboleth wrote: »

Frags work as intended.

Wtf?

Irylia

At this point sorcs are on the ground staring at their guts strewn across the floor. There’s nothing we can say to get zos to make positive sorc changes and now we have nothing in return from pts to put back what was ripped from us.

grannas211

Irylia wrote: »

At this point sorcs are on the ground staring at their guts strewn across the floor. There’s nothing we can say to get zos to make positive sorc changes and now we have nothing in return from pts to put back what was ripped from us.

Patch after Patch. Take, take, take, and so more take. (Minus the rune cage debacle). Its really depressing.

BalticBlues

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

At this point sorcs are on the ground staring at their guts strewn across the floor.

Indeed. Being on PS4, I cannot use the PTS, but I tested playing without a 3rd bar, result:
A PetSorc with 2 pets without a 3rd bar is PLAIN CRIPPLED.

With two pets blocking 4 slots, there are only 6 slots left, and many are mandatory:
Slot 1. Empowered Ward (required for player and pet protection)
Slot 2. Boundless Storm (required for resistance and expedition)
Slot 3. Mages Wrath (required as finisher)
Slot 4. Daedric Prey (required as pet booster)
Slot 5. A spammable (like Force Shock and morphs)
Slot 6. NOW WHAT?

You see, all variation we have now is in slot 6, and this is NOT ENOUGH:
Will you use...
... a DPS booster as PowerSurge/Magelight?
OR an AoE as Lightning Flood/Elemental?
OR a 2nd shield as Annulment/Steadfast?
OR an Escape as Streak/Mistform?

Result: With just one slot for variation, the gameplay is crippled.
Result: Players with 2 pets will be forced into a predictable playstyle.
Result: Players with 2 pets will always miss something to be competitive.

ZOS, there is a reason why the original Sorc developer created the 3rd bar.
The 3rd bar (where 2 slots are needed again for the 2 pets) brings 3 more slots.
The result is 6+3 = 9 slots: the required number of slots for meaningful gameplay.
By killing the 3rd bar, ZOS is nuking meaningful gameplay for the PetSorc. WHY?

Only solution if 3rd bar is removed: ALL Pets MUST only use ONE Slot.
As the NB SHADE Pet only uses ONE slot. If it works for one class, it should work for all.
So while you are fixing the Sorc pets ZOS, please also fix the Warden pet to only use one slot. Thanks!

Revokus

1. Pets need to act like shade from Nb. 2. Rework blood magic passive to heal for more and proc on all sorcerer spells not just dark magic. 3. Reduce streak penalty or give brief immunity to snare and immobilization. 4. Rework mines to maybe put them on yourself so they follow you and maybe reduce the damage so it can be better for defense when you have melee on you. 5. Give minor or major breach to the sorcerer to help if you want them to wear heavy armor. That would be a start..Not giving sorcerer anything in return with everything you took away from them is just killing the class for at least 6 months and maybe more.

Enslaved

Lord-Otto wrote: »

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

4.2.2 MagSorc Overload feedback

After you have solved the most pressing concern for Magsorc healers and Petsorcs by changing the daedric minions to work like the NB´s shade (summoned for a duration of x), you could make Light Overload attack desirable without changing its damage:

Instead of changing the damage of OL light attacks, change its damage modell: Make them a beam zipping from the hands of the caster to the enemy, like Crushing Shock, just with a cool, flashy lightning animation.

Another beam attack would greatly increase the usefulness of the Sorc´s skill set in 1vs1 situations.

so you want another soul assault ultimate, that cannot be reflected?
LOL

So you want a stamina Flame Whip?
LOL

Stam whip would not be flame if even made

StamWhipCultist

Lord-Otto wrote: »

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

4.2.2 MagSorc Overload feedback

After you have solved the most pressing concern for Magsorc healers and Petsorcs by changing the daedric minions to work like the NB´s shade (summoned for a duration of x), you could make Light Overload attack desirable without changing its damage:

Instead of changing the damage of OL light attacks, change its damage modell: Make them a beam zipping from the hands of the caster to the enemy, like Crushing Shock, just with a cool, flashy lightning animation.

Another beam attack would greatly increase the usefulness of the Sorc´s skill set in 1vs1 situations.

so you want another soul assault ultimate, that cannot be reflected?
LOL

So you want a stamina Flame Whip?
LOL

wut

Aldul

Galarthor wrote: »

This is pretty much the only reason aside from the S&B meta I still run Force Pulse and Rune Cage. It sucks when you fight the other 70% (20% if you deduct perma dodgers since you cannot hit them) b/c nowadays this combo is very clunky, but at least I don't constantly shoot and stun myself.


Edit: Has anybody figured out how Bastion now works? Numbers are buggy, but at least we should see how it affects shields.

There is a s&b meta? ? xD

katorga

Changing pets to work like shades is a really interesting idea. It also means pets need to be instant cast, but I'd hate to waste 20 seconds a pet that runs off or gets lost.

If the pets can no longer taunt, gain or hold agro, they need to be immune to damage all the time.

On a 20 second timer, damage needs to go up, and scale better with the caster's ability.

How does healing matriarch work with this model?

Face it, pets are the only thing ZOS will buff for sorcs. So might as well ask for the maximum.

BrightOblivion

katorga wrote: »

Changing pets to work like shades is a really interesting idea. It also means pets need to be instant cast, but I'd hate to waste 20 seconds a pet that runs off or gets lost.

If the pets can no longer taunt, gain or hold agro, they need to be immune to damage all the time.

On a 20 second timer, damage needs to go up, and scale better with the caster's ability.

How does healing matriarch work with this model?

Face it, pets are the only thing ZOS will buff for sorcs. So might as well ask for the maximum.

I don't find that idea interesting at all, to be honest. The shade is not, except in the strictest mechanical sense, a pet, whereas the familiars are. They follow you around. They fight next to you. Heck, quite a few people I know have even named theirs.

Does the pathing need work? Certainly. Would it be nice if they only took one bar? Definitely. But turning them into a drop-and-forget, 20 seconds and they vanish, stationary AoE damage/heal, cheap nightblade shade knockoff feels like taking another portion of the sorc identity (one I'm incredibly attached to), throwing it on the ground, and stomping on it. Doing it to appease people who may not even particularly like pets, but "Hey, that's all ZOS is going to buff, so might as well"?

As someone who's played petsorc for over a year and used it in every trial I've run, that would make me incredibly angry.

Thraben

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

4.2.2 MagSorc Overload feedback

After you have solved the most pressing concern for Magsorc healers and Petsorcs by changing the daedric minions to work like the NB´s shade (summoned for a duration of x), you could make Light Overload attack desirable without changing its damage:

Instead of changing the damage of OL light attacks, change its damage modell: Make them a beam zipping from the hands of the caster to the enemy, like Crushing Shock, just with a cool, flashy lightning animation.

Another beam attack would greatly increase the usefulness of the Sorc´s skill set in 1vs1 situations.

so you want another soul assault ultimate, that cannot be reflected?
LOL

We appreciate your point of view as a Dragonknight. Particularly since blocking is such a difficult thing for your class.

I´m pretty sure, though, that Soul Assault does more dps to players than, like, 4k.


Making lightning a projectile attack in the first place was the silliest thing since they made Piecing Howl one.

Revokus

BrightOblivion wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Changing pets to work like shades is a really interesting idea. It also means pets need to be instant cast, but I'd hate to waste 20 seconds a pet that runs off or gets lost.

If the pets can no longer taunt, gain or hold agro, they need to be immune to damage all the time.

On a 20 second timer, damage needs to go up, and scale better with the caster's ability.

How does healing matriarch work with this model?

Face it, pets are the only thing ZOS will buff for sorcs. So might as well ask for the maximum.

I don't find that idea interesting at all, to be honest. The shade is not, except in the strictest mechanical sense, a pet, whereas the familiars are. They follow you around. They fight next to you. Heck, quite a few people I know have even named theirs.

Does the pathing need work? Certainly. Would it be nice if they only took one bar? Definitely. But turning them into a drop-and-forget, 20 seconds and they vanish, stationary AoE damage/heal, cheap nightblade shade knockoff feels like taking another portion of the sorc identity (one I'm incredibly attached to), throwing it on the ground, and stomping on it. Doing it to appease people who may not even particularly like pets, but "Hey, that's all ZOS is going to buff, so might as well"?

As someone who's played petsorc for over a year and used it in every trial I've run, that would make me incredibly angry.

Not sure what the difference is if it’s like shade it will only be better..you would still be able to activate their special ability by pressing the ability again juste like shade.. they will be more reliable and will take no damage. The shade does damage and still allows you to teleport back to it reliably. This would allow to have a reliable heal with the matriarch taking only 1 slot.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

katorga wrote: »

Changing pets to work like shades is a really interesting idea. It also means pets need to be instant cast, but I'd hate to waste 20 seconds a pet that runs off or gets lost.

If the pets can no longer taunt, gain or hold agro, they need to be immune to damage all the time.

On a 20 second timer, damage needs to go up, and scale better with the caster's ability.

How does healing matriarch work with this model?

Face it, pets are the only thing ZOS will buff for sorcs. So might as well ask for the maximum.

Was having this convo the other day. First, of course NB pets (shades) work they way they are supposed to and of course, they should be the model for sorc pets. NBs are well designed, duh... Haha

Familiar seems easy. Treat it like shades. You cast, there is a very short travel time to your opponent, and the pet does its thing like now. Balance the damage how you see fit. It would give sorcs the pressure they desperately need in PVP, and if the stun remained, it would allow for a burst without having to rely on RC, which seems to go back and forth between useless and broken OP. I could definitely see familiar making my PVP bar with these changes.

The Twilight, I think could actually function a bit like Rally. You cast it, a pet appears that puts out a reasonable hot, with perhaps a bit of an extra heal at the end of 10 seconds (or whatever the duration should be). If you cast it early, the pet could explode in some glorious fashion and give a burst heal, which is bigger the longer you wait. You could also tie some sort of buff/debuff to it, as sorcs are in desperate need of major/minor buffs in this game. I would probably scrap the Damage morph of this ability and make it go full heals. One could be more selfish, and one could be better for a group.

End of the day, pets need reworked. It has been said over and over, but there are two takeaways.

1. Pets were originally designed as toggles needing 2 bars, which is why overload giving a third bar made sense. If an average class wants two skills, they have 8 extra spots to work with. Currently, a sorc that wants two pets and uses an OL bar has 9 more spots to work with (pets take up two spots on your OL bar as well). That's fairly balanced especially after adding in the global for the OL bar swap. Now a sorc will have 6 spots to work with, and they simply need more space than that, as most sorc skills are narrow in function and lack any major minor buffs. In other words, pets need to be able to be single barred.

2. We have a very functional model for pets in the form of NB shades. Dont reinvent the wheel, use what works.

BrightOblivion

Revokus wrote: »

BrightOblivion wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Changing pets to work like shades is a really interesting idea. It also means pets need to be instant cast, but I'd hate to waste 20 seconds a pet that runs off or gets lost.

If the pets can no longer taunt, gain or hold agro, they need to be immune to damage all the time.

On a 20 second timer, damage needs to go up, and scale better with the caster's ability.

How does healing matriarch work with this model?

Face it, pets are the only thing ZOS will buff for sorcs. So might as well ask for the maximum.

I don't find that idea interesting at all, to be honest. The shade is not, except in the strictest mechanical sense, a pet, whereas the familiars are. They follow you around. They fight next to you. Heck, quite a few people I know have even named theirs.

Does the pathing need work? Certainly. Would it be nice if they only took one bar? Definitely. But turning them into a drop-and-forget, 20 seconds and they vanish, stationary AoE damage/heal, cheap nightblade shade knockoff feels like taking another portion of the sorc identity (one I'm incredibly attached to), throwing it on the ground, and stomping on it. Doing it to appease people who may not even particularly like pets, but "Hey, that's all ZOS is going to buff, so might as well"?

As someone who's played petsorc for over a year and used it in every trial I've run, that would make me incredibly angry.

Not sure what the difference is if it’s like shade it will only be better..you would still be able to activate their special ability by pressing the ability again juste like shade.. they will be more reliable and will take no damage. The shade does damage and still allows you to teleport back to it reliably. This would allow to have a reliable heal with the matriarch taking only 1 slot.

The difference is that if it's like shade it has all the personality of a Templar shard. It's just there. Which, again, is a massive hit to the pet sorc's identity.

Perhaps it's more reliable, but if it's like shade where you drop it, it stays for 20 seconds, and then vanishes, even if it still has an active, it's just another DOT/buff. Which is bland, boring and unfun to me.

If I wanted that, I'd play non-pet, which does a good enough job being a spiceless amalgam as it is. After all, last I checked, that still did more damage than the pet spec.

Revokus

BrightOblivion wrote: »

Revokus wrote: »

BrightOblivion wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Changing pets to work like shades is a really interesting idea. It also means pets need to be instant cast, but I'd hate to waste 20 seconds a pet that runs off or gets lost.

If the pets can no longer taunt, gain or hold agro, they need to be immune to damage all the time.

On a 20 second timer, damage needs to go up, and scale better with the caster's ability.

How does healing matriarch work with this model?

Face it, pets are the only thing ZOS will buff for sorcs. So might as well ask for the maximum.

I don't find that idea interesting at all, to be honest. The shade is not, except in the strictest mechanical sense, a pet, whereas the familiars are. They follow you around. They fight next to you. Heck, quite a few people I know have even named theirs.

Does the pathing need work? Certainly. Would it be nice if they only took one bar? Definitely. But turning them into a drop-and-forget, 20 seconds and they vanish, stationary AoE damage/heal, cheap nightblade shade knockoff feels like taking another portion of the sorc identity (one I'm incredibly attached to), throwing it on the ground, and stomping on it. Doing it to appease people who may not even particularly like pets, but "Hey, that's all ZOS is going to buff, so might as well"?

As someone who's played petsorc for over a year and used it in every trial I've run, that would make me incredibly angry.

Not sure what the difference is if it’s like shade it will only be better..you would still be able to activate their special ability by pressing the ability again juste like shade.. they will be more reliable and will take no damage. The shade does damage and still allows you to teleport back to it reliably. This would allow to have a reliable heal with the matriarch taking only 1 slot.

The difference is that if it's like shade it has all the personality of a Templar shard. It's just there. Which, again, is a massive hit to the pet sorc's identity.

Perhaps it's more reliable, but if it's like shade where you drop it, it stays for 20 seconds, and then vanishes, even if it still has an active, it's just another DOT/buff. Which is bland, boring and unfun to me.

If I wanted that, I'd play non-pet, which does a good enough job being a spiceless amalgam as it is. After all, last I checked, that still did more damage than the pet spec.

Matter of perspective I guess.. but it can still follow you like it’s already doing..it would just be the better way for it to take only 1 slot. I guess a pet you cast each time it dies makes it feel more like a real pet to you ? The class is already gutted with useless shields now and they will stick with it. Either we find new solutions and if that means losing the immersion of pets to have a decent class again.. I’ll take it.

Vahrokh

I am totally FOR pets bugfixing.
I am totally AGAINST pets copy and paste from NBs.

If I wanted a fake pet I'd have rolled a NB, I'd enjoyed being overpowered for years, I'd enjoyed being welcome to every trial.

But no. I wanted to play a summoneer with a deeper gameplay than "press button, thingie spawns and does some stuff, thingie goes poof".

Revokus

Vahrokh wrote: »

I am totally FOR pets bugfixing.
I am totally AGAINST pets copy and paste from NBs.

If I wanted a fake pet I'd have rolled a NB, I'd enjoyed being overpowered for years, I'd enjoyed being welcome to every trial.

But no. I wanted to play a summoneer with a deeper gameplay than "press button, thingie spawns and does some stuff, thingie goes poof".

Well pets in this game are the worstly designed I have seen in any mmos..so enjoy your summonner fantasy I guess ?

BalticBlues

Vahrokh wrote: »

I wanted to play a summoneer with a deeper gameplay than "press button, thingie spawns and does some stuff, thingie goes poof".

If Pets would be fixed to only use one slot instead of two, nothing would change regarding their functionalty. You still would have to press the pet buttons to cause an action. And you still could assign two slots for a pet if you prefer; for the Healing Matriarch this could make sense for faster reactions - if you want to sacrifice a slot for this. Whatever you prefer: A "One slot per Pet" rule (for ALL CLASSES please) would give pet users finally more options, not less.

ccmedaddy

Making sorc pets behave like NB shades would be an awful change. Just no.

BalticBlues

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Making sorc pets behave like NB shades would be an awful change. Just no.

Can you please say what you mean with that?
Where is there any difference in functionality if a Sorc pet uses only one slot instead of two?
Moreover, if you want, you could still assign two slots in two bars, as it is now.
Perhaps read again what I have written above; maybe you did not understand the concept.

Revokus

BalticBlues wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Making sorc pets behave like NB shades would be an awful change. Just no.

Can you please say what you mean with that?
Where is there any difference in functionality if a Sorc pet uses only one slot instead of two?
Moreover, if you want, you could still assign two slots in two bars, as it is now.
Perhaps read again what I have written above; maybe you did not understand the concept.

Don’t listen to these trolls they probably don’t even play magsorc and are probably stamdens or stamblades that want magsorc into the ground lol.

ccmedaddy

BalticBlues wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Making sorc pets behave like NB shades would be an awful change. Just no.

Can you please say what you mean with that?
Where is there any difference in functionality if a Sorc pet uses only one slot instead of two?
Moreover, if you want, you could still assign two slots in two bars, as it is now.
Perhaps read again what I have written above; maybe you did not understand the concept.

I'm not against pets being single-barred. I just don't like the idea of them being immune to damage in PvP.

Zer0oo

ccmedaddy wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Making sorc pets behave like NB shades would be an awful change. Just no.

Can you please say what you mean with that?
Where is there any difference in functionality if a Sorc pet uses only one slot instead of two?
Moreover, if you want, you could still assign two slots in two bars, as it is now.
Perhaps read again what I have written above; maybe you did not understand the concept.

I'm not against pets being single-barred. I just don't like the idea of them being immune to damage in PvP.

I think it would be maybe even a nerf for them since one of the most annoying things is that you can not really target the sorc when the pets run around.

ccmedaddy

Zer0oo wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Making sorc pets behave like NB shades would be an awful change. Just no.

Can you please say what you mean with that?
Where is there any difference in functionality if a Sorc pet uses only one slot instead of two?
Moreover, if you want, you could still assign two slots in two bars, as it is now.
Perhaps read again what I have written above; maybe you did not understand the concept.

I'm not against pets being single-barred. I just don't like the idea of them being immune to damage in PvP.

I think it would be maybe even a nerf for them since one of the most annoying things is that you can not really target the sorc when the pets run around.

Exactly. One of the few advantages that pet sorcs have in PvP is their ability to LoS using pets and making them untargetable would make pet sorcs more vulnerable to enemy pressure. Also, I don't want the forums to be full of people asking for pet sorc nerfs next patch because there is no longer counterplay against pet sorcs.

BalticBlues

ccmedaddy wrote: »

I just don't like the idea of them being immune to damage in PvP.

Where do you get this immunity from? AFAIK Sorc pets will only be immune in group Dungeons and Trials. Personally, I do not like this exception and see it as another band-aid for another crippled aspect of the game with the next patch. My suggestion was only referring to the suggestion that ALL pets should only take one slot, not that all pets should be immune.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Vahrokh wrote: »

I am totally FOR pets bugfixing.
I am totally AGAINST pets copy and paste from NBs.

If I wanted a fake pet I'd have rolled a NB, I'd enjoyed being overpowered for years, I'd enjoyed being welcome to every trial.

But no. I wanted to play a summoneer with a deeper gameplay than "press button, thingie spawns and does some stuff, thingie goes poof".

When it comes to balance, function should be given far more consideration than ones ability to RP. Pets in their current state don't f'ing work. I am certainly open to suggestions, but two bar toggle is an epic failure.

Galarthor

Derra wrote: »

No the joke is on gamemechanics - shields didn´t have resis so far.

Do you die to crushing shock and daedric curse? Because i certainly don´t.

Daedric Curse is the greatest killer and most OP thing in the game, just ask any perma-dodging stamblade about it. Apparently they all die instantly from the curse since it is not dodgeable ... or so they assured me when we were discussing the lack of sorc counters to perma-dodgers.