PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

Feanor

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Out of curiosity...
For the people that miss Overload's third bar - what builds were you running for what, that needed the third bar?

For me it’s missing utility mostly - having Deep Thought, Mines and Boundless on the OL bar was excellent. Removing the bar will leave your build with a lot more weaknesses now because we don’t have overloaded (pun intended) skills.

Emma_Overload

Wow, people have some really foggy memories. I remember EXACTLY what ESO was like at launch: full of game-breaking bugs, massive imbalances in PvP, bot trains flying though the sky, and huge chunks of the overland content were nearly impossible to solo. Only overpowered DKs would remember that time fondly!

Lord-Otto

Feanor wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Out of curiosity...
For the people that miss Overload's third bar - what builds were you running for what, that needed the third bar?

For me it’s missing utility mostly - having Deep Thought, Mines and Boundless on the OL bar was excellent. Removing the bar will leave your build with a lot more weaknesses now because we don’t have overloaded (pun intended) skills.

Yeah, Mines. Fully support this. Boundless with the new shield changes, too. Meditate is too stationary in Cyro for me. But I guess it's awesome in no-CP and BG.
Good points.

Derra

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Wow, people have some really foggy memories. I remember EXACTLY what ESO was like at launch: full of game-breaking bugs, massive imbalances in PvP, bot trains flying though the sky, and huge chunks of the overland content were nearly impossible to solo. Only overpowered DKs would remember that time fondly!

In 1.0 sorc was arguably more OP than DK was with 4 ultimate cost invisible batswarm...

Emma_Overload

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Wow, people have some really foggy memories. I remember EXACTLY what ESO was like at launch: full of game-breaking bugs, massive imbalances in PvP, bot trains flying though the sky, and huge chunks of the overland content were nearly impossible to solo. Only overpowered DKs would remember that time fondly!

In 1.0 sorc was arguably more OP than DK was with 4 ultimate cost invisible batswarm...

There was a brief period when Sorcs could kill a bunch of people by just streaking back and forth over them. Deltia even made a video about it. I think this was before cc immunity existed. It got nerfed way before DKs did, though.

Feanor

@Lord-Otto

Deep Thought is nice when you have LoS or are in a relative safe spot.

Lord-Otto

Feanor wrote: »

@Lord-Otto

Deep Thought is nice when you have LoS or are in a relative safe spot.

So... Never.
(^_^)'

maboleth

Did anyone test new rune cage in duels or cyrodiil? I'm a bit worried about 1.2 sec cast time, non dodgeable though, but still... Sounds slow.

It also makes me wonder WHO initially tried to make many of sorc abilities have a cast time or some sort of delay... :-/

Feanor

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Lord-Otto

Deep Thought is nice when you have LoS or are in a relative safe spot.

So... Never.
(^_^)'

I quite often use it in Tower fights, on resource flags and keep walls/stairs.

Morgul667

3rd bar allowed stamsorc to put critical surge calltrops purge maneuver and things like that on back bar

Now the stamsorc will be very busy and yet less efficient

Lord-Otto

Feanor wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Lord-Otto

Deep Thought is nice when you have LoS or are in a relative safe spot.

So... Never.
(^_^)'

I quite often use it in Tower fights, on resource flags and keep walls/stairs.

Sounds useful.

Biro123

Derra wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Feric51 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

What about rebate now? It does nothing for stam sorcs, non-pet magsorcs and pve pet sorcs now. Can we finally change it to something useful that every sorc profits from?

Pets won't take damage only in the group content Rob listed. They will still be able to die in overland PvE, PvP, vMA, etc. It still exists, although I must admit my pets usually only die when I unsummon them upon entering a town/bank/trader, etc. So i'm not really getting much use of the passive as it is.

Okay, missed the vma part. But I still think petsorcs can bear the loss of rebate in overland content. This passive is just to niché now.

Feanor wrote: »

As for Sorc - what would you expect from a combat designer who reportedly asked the class reps if the lack of bar space is because Sorc „has too many good abilities“?

If the class gets the long needed rework I’ll say that the shield changes were for the better, and the correct choice. It’s just that I doubt very much that it will happen within a reasonable timeframe (cf. Templars).

Lol "Too many good abilities."

They're just all equally ass so it looks like we're making 'interesting bar-slot choices', when in reality it's 'what sucks the least' as opposed to 'what do I like/works the best'.

Very much this - and also chosing complementary skills to those which made sorc builds unbelieveably unflexible for 3 years now.

The real reason imho, is that sorc' has way too many unspammable abilities. Way more than absolutely anybody else. If I don't even count the buffs, which you obviously can't spam, there's:
Curse: once every 4 seconds
Frag: proc roughly once every 6 seconds.
Cage : uncastable if target cc-immune
Streak: exponential cost increase
Fury: Lowest execute threshold in game
Mines: expensive and takes time to arm
I mean, about the only sorc' ability on a PvP bar that is spammable is shield, lol.

In contrast, my stamblade pops a heavy attack/rending for a bit of bleedage, then into surprise attack spam with the odd incap.
Could probably do ok with just SA spam alone!
But sorc can't just drop stuff and say, 'ill just spam an extra X instead'.. By design, sorc' offence needs that burst combo of 4 abilities (not counting ultimate).. And defence also needs a combo of shield/heal/mobility, all which come at a bar-space cost.

'Too many good abilities', lol

Morgul667

I have a magsorc that i play as tank heal with third bar for utilities, shields for protection and pets for aggro

He just got screwed up big time with this update lol

Destroyed from top to bottom

Thraben

(

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Out of curiosity...
For the people that miss Overload's third bar - what builds were you running for what, that needed the third bar?

Basically every build that consisted of more than 1-2-3 instagib, then streak away. Among the people I spoke to :

OL change MOST hated by: MagSorc healers. Even with the recent PTS changes, you need 2-4 more skill slots to do exactly the same stuff a templer does.

OL change much hated by: PetSorcs. Obviously.

OL change MUCH hated by: PvP StamSorcs. The loss of the third bar means a life as a rapid bot for those who run in groups, and the loss of useful skills like Defensive Rune, or support skills. That being said, the buff to the OL heavy attack makes StamSorcs superior AoE DDs, even outperforming some MagBlades in that role.

OL change RATHER hated by: Sorc tanks. The Clannfear must be double barred, and the only thing Sorc Tanks could better than a Warden/ DK was support (provided by the third bar) like throwing Orbs, or using a Altar, or a Rapid.

OL change not favoured by: Experienced Sorcs in general. The longer most people I spoke to had mained a Sorc, the more unhappy they were with the loss of the third bar. Even when they belonged to the group:

OL change accepted by: PvE DD Sorcs

Vahrokh

Thraben wrote: »

OL change accepted by: PvE DD Sorcs

Not exactly "accepted". I slotted 3 bars with OL 2-3 times over these years. Always found it clunky, clumsy, buggy. Unslotted it after 10 minutes.

Instead of "accepted", I'd say: "not bothered to care".

Lord-Otto

Yeah, stam sorcs seem to suffer the most.

For pets, I'd say this is the time to make them single-slot. Not like Shade, but rather they simply don't disappear when you switch to petless bar.

jeskah

Thraben wrote: »

(

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Out of curiosity...
For the people that miss Overload's third bar - what builds were you running for what, that needed the third bar?

Basically every build that consisted of more than 1-2-3 instagib, then streak away. Among the people I spoke to :

OL change MOST hated by: MagSorc healers. Even with the recent PTS changes, you need 2-4 more skill slots to do exactly the same stuff a templer does.

OL change much hated by: PetSorcs. Obviously.

OL change MUCH hated by: PvP StamSorcs. The loss of the third bar means a life as a rapid bot for those who run in groups, and the loss of useful skills like Defensive Rune, or support skills. That being said, the buff to the OL heavy attack makes StamSorcs superior AoE DDs, even outperforming some MagBlades in that role.

OL change RATHER hated by: Sorc tanks. The Clannfear must be double barred, and the only thing Sorc Tanks could better than a Warden/ DK was support (provided by the third bar) like throwing Orbs, or using a Altar, or a Rapid.

OL change not favoured by: Experienced Sorcs in general. The longer most people I spoke to had mained a Sorc, the more unhappy they were with the loss of the third bar. Even when they belonged to the group:

OL change accepted by: PvE DD Sorcs

Actually, in the long term, we all should be happy. Lets face it, the 3rd bar was a gimmick, a crouch, an excuse. Short tem it will be... Dunno , will be something. But by next patch i hope that they will adjust everything else, the long neglected skills, the overcrowded bars, rhe dual slotted nonsenses.
At least thats what im hoping.

ezio45

Feanor wrote: »

As for Sorc - what would you expect from a combat designer who reportedly asked the class reps if the lack of bar space is because Sorc „has too many good abilities“?

If the class gets the long needed rework I’ll say that the shield changes were for the better, and the correct choice. It’s just that I doubt very much that it will happen within a reasonable timeframe (cf. Templars).

I expect him to BALANCE the class.... not gut them

Gnozo

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Out of curiosity...
For the people that miss Overload's third bar - what builds were you running for what, that needed the third bar?

I was using it on stamsorc.

Frontbar: Ransack, reverb, streak, vigor, Bound Armaments- Overload
Backbar: Dark Deal, Executioner, Hurricane, Rally, Bound Armaments- Dawnbreaker

Overload Bar: Caltrops, Rapid, Shuffle, Critsurge, Flex Spot.

So ye, my buff Rotation needs my 3rd bar to get Shuffle, crit surge and gave me some additional skills for group utility. These skills (caltrops and rapid + whatever the group leader wanted due to my flex spot) made my stamsorc very welcomed in group play. Now i cant effort to run rapid or caltrops anymore due to the loss of my 3rd skillbar wich was already needed to carry all the important buff. So for future, looks like i am forced to drop Bound Armaments to get shuffle and crit surge on my main bar. Resulting in damage loss (8% stam) and sustain loss (20% more health/stam recovery)

Thanks ZOS. Anyway, no competetive group would take my stamsorc now cause i cant offer anything to the group anymore.

Morgul667

jeskah wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

(

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Out of curiosity...
For the people that miss Overload's third bar - what builds were you running for what, that needed the third bar?

Basically every build that consisted of more than 1-2-3 instagib, then streak away. Among the people I spoke to :

OL change MOST hated by: MagSorc healers. Even with the recent PTS changes, you need 2-4 more skill slots to do exactly the same stuff a templer does.

OL change much hated by: PetSorcs. Obviously.

OL change MUCH hated by: PvP StamSorcs. The loss of the third bar means a life as a rapid bot for those who run in groups, and the loss of useful skills like Defensive Rune, or support skills. That being said, the buff to the OL heavy attack makes StamSorcs superior AoE DDs, even outperforming some MagBlades in that role.

OL change RATHER hated by: Sorc tanks. The Clannfear must be double barred, and the only thing Sorc Tanks could better than a Warden/ DK was support (provided by the third bar) like throwing Orbs, or using a Altar, or a Rapid.

OL change not favoured by: Experienced Sorcs in general. The longer most people I spoke to had mained a Sorc, the more unhappy they were with the loss of the third bar. Even when they belonged to the group:

OL change accepted by: PvE DD Sorcs

Actually, in the long term, we all should be happy. Lets face it, the 3rd bar was a gimmick, a crouch, an excuse. Short tem it will be... Dunno , will be something. But by next patch i hope that they will adjust everything else, the long neglected skills, the overcrowded bars, rhe dual slotted nonsenses.
At least thats what im hoping.

I love it when i see that kind of optimism
History proved otherwise but for the sake of the game lets’s hope youre right

Morgul667

Gnozo wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Out of curiosity...
For the people that miss Overload's third bar - what builds were you running for what, that needed the third bar?

I was using it on stamsorc.

Frontbar: Ransack, reverb, streak, vigor, Bound Armaments- Overload
Backbar: Dark Deal, Executioner, Hurricane, Rally, Bound Armaments- Dawnbreaker

Overload Bar: Caltrops, Rapid, Shuffle, Critsurge, Flex Spot.

So ye, my buff Rotation needs my 3rd bar to get Shuffle, crit surge and gave me some additional skills for group utility. These skills (caltrops and rapid + whatever the group leader wanted due to my flex spot) made my stamsorc very welcomed in group play. Now i cant effort to run rapid or caltrops anymore due to the loss of my 3rd skillbar wich was already needed to carry all the important buff. So for future, looks like i am forced to drop Bound Armaments to get shuffle and crit surge on my main bar. Resulting in damage loss (8% stam) and sustain loss (20% more health/stam recovery)

Thanks ZOS. Anyway, no competetive group would take my stamsorc now cause i cant offer anything to the group anymore.

Dont worry we still have dark deal.... oh wait ...

Morgul667

And there is an entire class line useless for stamsorcs....

Lord-Otto

Gnozo wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Out of curiosity...
For the people that miss Overload's third bar - what builds were you running for what, that needed the third bar?

I was using it on stamsorc.

Frontbar: Ransack, reverb, streak, vigor, Bound Armaments- Overload
Backbar: Dark Deal, Executioner, Hurricane, Rally, Bound Armaments- Dawnbreaker

Overload Bar: Caltrops, Rapid, Shuffle, Critsurge, Flex Spot.

So ye, my buff Rotation needs my 3rd bar to get Shuffle, crit surge and gave me some additional skills for group utility. These skills (caltrops and rapid + whatever the group leader wanted due to my flex spot) made my stamsorc very welcomed in group play. Now i cant effort to run rapid or caltrops anymore due to the loss of my 3rd skillbar wich was already needed to carry all the important buff. So for future, looks like i am forced to drop Bound Armaments to get shuffle and crit surge on my main bar. Resulting in damage loss (8% stam) and sustain loss (20% more health/stam recovery)

Thanks ZOS. Anyway, no competetive group would take my stamsorc now cause i cant offer anything to the group anymore.

Redesign suggestion for Summoning:

Having a Summoning ability slotted, one bar is sufficient, increases magicka or stamina pool by 8%, whichever is higher. Also increases health and stamina regen by 20%. This works while on either bar.

Adjust corresponding NB passive to require only one bar, as well.

Would that solve most of your problems?

Gnozo

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Out of curiosity...
For the people that miss Overload's third bar - what builds were you running for what, that needed the third bar?

I was using it on stamsorc.

Frontbar: Ransack, reverb, streak, vigor, Bound Armaments- Overload
Backbar: Dark Deal, Executioner, Hurricane, Rally, Bound Armaments- Dawnbreaker

Overload Bar: Caltrops, Rapid, Shuffle, Critsurge, Flex Spot.

So ye, my buff Rotation needs my 3rd bar to get Shuffle, crit surge and gave me some additional skills for group utility. These skills (caltrops and rapid + whatever the group leader wanted due to my flex spot) made my stamsorc very welcomed in group play. Now i cant effort to run rapid or caltrops anymore due to the loss of my 3rd skillbar wich was already needed to carry all the important buff. So for future, looks like i am forced to drop Bound Armaments to get shuffle and crit surge on my main bar. Resulting in damage loss (8% stam) and sustain loss (20% more health/stam recovery)

Thanks ZOS. Anyway, no competetive group would take my stamsorc now cause i cant offer anything to the group anymore.

Redesign suggestion for Summoning:

Having a Summoning ability slotted, one bar is sufficient, increases magicka or stamina pool by 8%, whichever is higher. Also increases health and stamina regen by 20%. This works while on either bar.

Adjust corresponding NB passive to require only one bar, as well.

Would that solve most of your problems?

Not really, i still need to put Bound Armaments on at least one bar to get the buff from it. With this I get one additional slot for crit surge. Still missing shuffle then and still no space for my group utility skills.

The changes to Overload just killed one identity of sorcs. Like shields also got deleted from sorcs identity it feels so generic playing this class now.

One patch killed so many playstyles that are here for years and got played by so many players that they cant be really serious about these changes.

Feric51

I keep seeing people suggesting just to make pets a toggle that can then be slotted only on one bar. I'm not sure how things work on PC, but this doesn't seem like it would be a possible solution on console.

Using my Xbox controller layout (and bear with me for comparison's sake) I used to have:
Twilight Matriarch - (LB)Left shoulder button (double barred)
Bound Aegis - (RB)Right shoulder button (when it was a toggle) (Let's also remember this had to be double barred even as a toggle or you would lose the effect... but let's ignore that and assume pets could be a toggle that only requires one bar)

So in this example we have pet skill as it currently sits and a toggle skill as people are asking pets to be. I press LB and summon twilight matriarch, press RB and toggle on Bound Aegis. Start killing mobs and my matriarch is passively DPSing, and my aegis is just sitting there passively giving me 8% max magicka. So far so good. I stop paying attention for a minute and realize my health is low, so I press LB again activating the matriarch's heal and continue fighting. If I press RB again, however, my aegis toggles off and becomes non-existent. Such is a nature of a "toggle."

So my question becomes. If pets become a "toggle" ability. How do we on console activate the special ability? If we press it again, it toggle's off. PC players may have completely different keybinds for summoning pets vs activating special ability, but we do not have that on console.

Rather than a true toggle, it would need to be some sort of persistent effect. Once cast, it stays for either a decent amount of time before automatically despawning, or stays permanently until killed or removed from active effects by the player.

Just some insight from a console pleb whose controls you might not be considering when throwing out these suggestions.

Feanor

@Feric51

There isn’t a different keybind for the special attack and the summoning on the base PC version either - only addons provide that.

josh.lackey_ESO

Please allow one Overload morph to stay the same as live, with the 3rd bar.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Vahrokh wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

OL change accepted by: PvE DD Sorcs

Not exactly "accepted". I slotted 3 bars with OL 2-3 times over these years. Always found it clunky, clumsy, buggy. Unslotted it after 10 minutes.

Instead of "accepted", I'd say: "not bothered to care".

Yeah this. There was a time in this game way back, where it was accepted meta in 4 man and VMA to basically stack ultimate on trash, and quickly burn boss with an overload LA spam. A that time, it gave some fun bursty numbers. It has never been useful in a trial. The few high end sorcs I have talked to that have tested basically say, it doesnt do enough DPS or return enough magic to be useful, and no way they are giving up attro synergy for the stamboys in melee.

In other words, it wasnt used before in PVE trials, and it wont be used after.

Only time I ever used OL in trials was VMOL HM progression for back room, as it really simplified your life to be able to streak across gaps and OL assassins. Not really relevant as its super easy and honestly faster on a mageblade these days. Most good groups only send one back room team, and most groups have at least two mageblades, so it works out.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Out of curiosity...
For the people that miss Overload's third bar - what builds were you running for what, that needed the third bar?

I was using it on stamsorc.

Frontbar: Ransack, reverb, streak, vigor, Bound Armaments- Overload
Backbar: Dark Deal, Executioner, Hurricane, Rally, Bound Armaments- Dawnbreaker

Overload Bar: Caltrops, Rapid, Shuffle, Critsurge, Flex Spot.

So ye, my buff Rotation needs my 3rd bar to get Shuffle, crit surge and gave me some additional skills for group utility. These skills (caltrops and rapid + whatever the group leader wanted due to my flex spot) made my stamsorc very welcomed in group play. Now i cant effort to run rapid or caltrops anymore due to the loss of my 3rd skillbar wich was already needed to carry all the important buff. So for future, looks like i am forced to drop Bound Armaments to get shuffle and crit surge on my main bar. Resulting in damage loss (8% stam) and sustain loss (20% more health/stam recovery)

Thanks ZOS. Anyway, no competetive group would take my stamsorc now cause i cant offer anything to the group anymore.

Redesign suggestion for Summoning:

Having a Summoning ability slotted, one bar is sufficient, increases magicka or stamina pool by 8%, whichever is higher. Also increases health and stamina regen by 20%. This works while on either bar.

Adjust corresponding NB passive to require only one bar, as well.

Would that solve most of your problems?

I often wonder what it would take to essentially merge bars form a buff toggle perspective, which would remove any need to double bar, well anything. The player would still have to actively swap, but any buff/passive related to having a skill slotted would simply apply to both bars. If you wanted major prophecy, you could back bar IL for example. It would also remove the annoying feature of having different resource pools on different bars (which in terms of health, can actually get you killed).

I think the potential for abuse would be players stacking passives skills on the back bar, and being able to simplify rotations and use less swapping, but honestly, who cares. If anything, it would only serve to raise the floor, which is desperately needed in this game. The best of the best run builds where bar space is already at a premium anyway. Not like mag sorcs are going to be slotting bound aegis, IL and a bunch of class, mages skills on the back bar and one shotting people, they dont have the room for those on live, no matter how they setup their bars.

Urvoth

Tonturri wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Feric51 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

What about rebate now? It does nothing for stam sorcs, non-pet magsorcs and pve pet sorcs now. Can we finally change it to something useful that every sorc profits from?

Pets won't take damage only in the group content Rob listed. They will still be able to die in overland PvE, PvP, vMA, etc. It still exists, although I must admit my pets usually only die when I unsummon them upon entering a town/bank/trader, etc. So i'm not really getting much use of the passive as it is.

Okay, missed the vma part. But I still think petsorcs can bear the loss of rebate in overland content. This passive is just to niché now.

Feanor wrote: »

As for Sorc - what would you expect from a combat designer who reportedly asked the class reps if the lack of bar space is because Sorc „has too many good abilities“?

If the class gets the long needed rework I’ll say that the shield changes were for the better, and the correct choice. It’s just that I doubt very much that it will happen within a reasonable timeframe (cf. Templars).

Lol "Too many good abilities."

They're just all equally ass so it looks like we're making 'interesting bar-slot choices', when in reality it's 'what sucks the least' as opposed to 'what do I like/works the best'.

Edit: ZOS, you need to stop nerfing based on statistics. Sometimes people use this or that because it's FUN. And you should make other stuff fun instead of dragging everything ever down into the dirt with all the other unloved toys.

Exactly this, especially for PvP. We have limited bar space because if we don't use multiple shields, we have no defense. If we don't use curse, frags, wrath/fury, rune cage or reach, and a high damage ult like meteor or dawnbreaker, we don't have enough damage for our burst. Streak is mandatory, we have to sacrifice a shield for Boundless, Dark Conversion/Deep Thoughts is essential for sustain, and we won’t have reliable damage or be able to proc frags without a spammable.

The problem is the all our skills basically do only one thing, and most of them are necessary for a viable build, and the only viable build has historically been a light armor, shield stacking one. Mines is a great utility skill, but I’ll never have bar space to slot it unless some other skills get merged or reworked. It’s the same thing for Surge. Too many skills are pretty much mandatory to slot because each skill does something very specific and nothing else. Every non pet sorc has pretty much the exact same bar setup aside from one or two skills.