PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

Galarthor

Hymzir wrote: »

I feel you're missing the point here...

The key thing to understand is that, the playstyle in question is the reason why ZOS is nerfing shields. And the justification behind that move is exactly what you yourself said: Compared to it, any other sorc build option is subpar.

No. They nerfed shields b/c they felt healers had not enough to do in PvE.

Hymzir wrote: »

Now, whether that build and playstyle is the only thing that works for sorcs, is not relevant. What is, is that it is so clearly demonstrably better than anything else available for sorcs.

It should be relevant though. If it's the only thing that works, then it should not be nerfed since the rest obviously doesn't work. You don't demolish your old car if your new car is not driving!

Hymzir wrote: »

ZOS thinks that the other build options are good too. They think that shield based play is over performing, and want to pull them in line with the other options, and that it is performing in a manner that does not match their vision for the gameplay. They seem to want to make shield use an active decision instead of being a reactive counter to taking damage. Thus the decision to add brakes on shield spamming. With the change, shields no longer work as a steady phantom buffer of health the user is constantly refreshing, and thus serving as the primary form of defense for the caster. They are now temporary buffs you cast in order to be able to take the offensive.

That's not the reason - see above. They simply want sorcs to take more damage to the health bar so healers got more to do.
There is no active decision to be made when you are dead!

This change is equivalent to a airplane engineer saying: "Hey, I found a great way to save weight and thus fuel consumption: We just gonna cut off the wings!". And we can all agree that that's a pretty stupid idea and does not require extensive testing and even a blind person could see that this change destroyed the airplane.

Hymzir wrote: »

And yes, just as I said before, I fully expect the alternative builds and play styles, that would emerge should this change go forth, to be weak. Weaker than the prevailing meta, and quite possible weaker than most of the builds and playstyles of other classes. It would take several updates worth of tweaks to get sorcs back up to speed. But first we need to change the meta, before any of those other changes can happen.

Great idea. With updates only rolling out every 3 months let's destroy a class completely for 1 or 2 years b/c some people have L2P issues. And if you want to start changing the meta, why not start with the most overperforming class of them all: stamblades?

Hymzir wrote: »

The real thing people should be irked about is not the change itself, but the fact that it took this long for ZOS to finally do something about it. The issue of shieldstacking sorcs is not a recent one. It has festered for years. And any attempt to change it is obviously gonna be met with heavy resistance. But the change is still necessary. At least in my opinion, as far as the good of the game is concerned.

"Shield stacking" is and since the 6 sec duration nerf always has been only an issue in your head. Sorcs only seem invincible b/c they don't take the damage to the HP bar, but to a separate bar that is very poorly displayed. There is no significant difference between a sorc refrshing their shield and any other class refreshing HP pool (aka. healing).

Once you get through a sorcs shield you have basically won. That's equivalent to getting a DK or Templar for example into the low HP region.

And for the record, having multiple shields active at the same time is not really effective and efficient. By the time you applied your second shield your first shield will be gone, which means you might as well re-apply your first shield. And then there isn't really a good reason why you should use Harness of Hardened Ward as the latter is cheaper and stronger - the only exception being if you fight other magicka builds and need magicka back!

If the shields were displayed as the HP extension that they are (similar to buff food) their perception by opponents would be completely different and we wouldn't have this conversation. You know how sorcs can tell that? B/c we have the same issue when facing other sorcs while at the same time seeing under how much pressure we are and how close a call it often times is. The problem is, that most people have not experienced both sides and thus have a completely distorted perception of the actual strength of shields.

Hymzir wrote: »

I fully expect many long time sorcs to drop the game due to this change, and I fully understand why they would do that, and they will be missed. But I also feel that the the move is going to prove better for the game in the long run. The current sorc meta just isn't a good match to where the game is heading towards.

I imagine if you put dodge roll and cloak on a 1 sec cast many long time stambaldes would drop the game ... and that would actually improve the game both in the short- and long-term b/c it will become far less toxic.
As for the current sorc meta VS game development: Where do you think it is heading? Free kills for stamblades with and IQ over 40?

Hymzir wrote: »

Well, that's what I think, and you are entitled to disagree. And am not gonna debate the point with anyone. It's not like we have any extensive scientific studies at hand to say one way or another about it. Just our own subjective experiences from playing the game, and were are all voicing just opinions about what we think is the best way to go forward. It's an important topic, and that's why I too want to say what I think about it. In the end, it is for ZOS to decide what tehy're gonna do.

Here you are right, but the fact that even non-sorcs come in and say that this is too much is pretty telling. The only people who like this change are people with L2P issues, people who cannot look at shields objectively, and people who want free kills. Non of them are really qualified to be included into the balancing discussion / process.

As for ZOS: many inventions in the past look great on paper but sucked in reality. So playing the game and making changes based on the "real world" effectiveness and efficiency of game mechanics is the way to go. And cutting off the wings of your airplane is always a bad idea, unless you outfit it with a rocket engine ... and even then it might not be a good idea.

Feanor

I‘m glad I only got 1 million AP to go until I hit AR 41. I’ll shelve my Sorc for PvP after that.

Emma_Overload

Vogtard wrote: »

Maybe a crazy idea but since the shields are already about to get changed, how about a complete redesign of Conjured Ward to act similar to the Psijic passive shield? It has a very cool, well designed, skill based mechanic, removes stacking, and makes the block button more useful for magsorcs. The idea and the code is in already in the game.
Permablock wouldn't work due to the inherent recharge time.

Sorcs desperately lack bar space so preferably make it a passive or a 30s buff which triggers a shield while blocking. The shield recharges linearly over time. The armor mitigation before the shield is nice, and block mitigation before the shield would be even nicer, with a fantastic synergy with Bound Armor.

I hate cooldowns but the recharge mechanic is actually great. Would love to see it used with Streak too (linearly scaling cost or distance).

I bolded "linearly" because it's absolutely critical that it is not in the 0/1 system like current disgusting Streak fatigue BS.

Remove cast time from the other shields.

Yeah, make this a passive and then replace Ward with an unkillable pet that heals you over time for 30 seconds with the same strength as Vigor.

BalticBlues

Donnasnowheart_ESO wrote: »

I cant help but feel like the person that made these and let them go through had strong negative feelings towards the Sorc Class.

Exactly this. This patch is not balancing, it is crippling a class.
Crippling 3rd Bar, Shields and DarkConversion to a point where
entire builds and playstyles are not viable anymore.

People put months or even years of their life into building their Sorc.
This patch feels like betrayal, like an official kick in the guts.
What is balancing? For competent developers, it means fine-tuning skills, not breaking skills.

KingKayanto

I suggest everyone votes with their wallet. Luckily my ESO+ sub ended this week. Not gonna continue paying.

Heymexa

PVP:
Disabling the ability to combine shields (stack) for Sorcerer, is the removal of the identity of this class. This is the same if Nightblades have disabled the ability to activate invisibility, or the Templars have the option of healing. Sorcerer without combining shields turns into a soap bubble and useless class.

Dear developers. If you want to prohibit the combination of shields, then improve Hardened Ward. Give the sorcery at least one tool for survival. And of course - caste shields should not be interrupted. This is absurd.

maboleth

If they didn't want to for shields to stack, they could have just make one to exclude another. Simple as that. Either use hardened (or conjured) or harness, but not both. One cancels the other.

Hymzir

Feanor wrote: »

And yes, just as I said before, I fully expect the alternative builds and play styles, that would emerge should this change go forth, to be weak. Weaker than the prevailing meta, and quite possible weaker than most of the builds and playstyles of other classes. It would take several updates worth of tweaks to get sorcs back up to speed. But first we need to change the meta, before any of those other changes can happen.

@Hymzir

What exactly makes you believe Sorc receives buffs or rework in the future? And what exactly is „the good of the game“? Is it everyone playing Nightblades?

Since you went the extra mile and tagged me, I'll answer you. The reason I fully believe that sorcs will be buffed in the future is the fact that that's how these things work in MMOs. Look at the Templar changes this round and the one before. Templars might actually be viable once more in PVE as something else than a healer. The evasion changes might make them utterly pointelss in PVP, but that remains to be seen. Once upon a time, DKs ruled the land and then met the nerf bat. Eventually they did get back up again, but it took a long long time. Sorcs have been mostly spared from this cycle thus far, but if this change goes forth, then they too get to meet the ground. And from there on, the only way is up. So yeah, once they hit the ground, they will be brought up again. At some point. And no it isn't fun. But it is what it is, and that is the way things work around here, and players of other classes have had to go through it before.

As for the good of the game, that is more complicated issue - but it boils down to diversity of builds for me at least. There are plenty of build used by other classes. There are many ways you can go about being a magicka based DK or a Templar or even a NB. There are differences between effectiveness of those builds, but they are not that huge. Personal preference and player skill factor in much more.

With sorcs, there is this one playstyle, this one default set of skills that everyone uses with minute variation. Because it is so much better than anything else a sorc could try. Making that less appealing will force people to try out something else. And thus exposing other issues, bringing new complaints and grievances to the forums, which in turn will eventually lead to different tweaks and buffs in the future. Tweaks and buffs that would've been impossible in an environment were the current meta reigns supreme.

With time, say next year at this time we might finally have a more diverse crowd of sorc builds out there. And that, for me at least, is for the good of the game. If you don't agree with me, I'm not gonna get angry. Your point of view is just as valid as mine. And both of ours are no doubt shared by plenty of other people. Ultimately it is for ZOS to decide which way to go.

As for Nightblades...Eventually they too will meet the nerf bat, and there is gonna be another *** storm on the forums. Either that or the game will just die and wither away - the thing with ZOS is that they move at a glacial pace.

To the rest of you, who apparently don't understand the meaning of "am not gonna argue the point with you", I'll just remind you that ultimately all we are throwing around are our own subjective notions. You can scream and whine all you want, and try to belittle those who are not joining you in the chorus of "the sky is falling, end is nigh!", but all you are doing is exposing your own bias on the subject.

I have already stated, that I do not think the cast time is a good solution. I would much rather prefer something else. But it is a solution to the problem. Whether the problem warrants a solution is up to debate, but at the same time is mostly undebatable, since it will be utterly colored by subjective stances. Those who main sorcs will have a totally different opinion as to those who do not. And the "problem" itself is not due to shields themselves, nor even shield stacking. It's the combination of several skills, abilities, and mechanics that bring about a build supporting a playstyles that is causing problems.

And whether you agree with it or not, whether you like it or not, ZOS has decided that they are gonna try to do something about it.

If you are against it, then go ahead and present your arguments, debate your points, but do not throw mud on people who do not agree with you or go all bananas about it. Hyperbolic statements will not aid in your cause, nor does attacking other players who do not share your opinions.

I've stated my opinion on the matter, and for ZOS all I have to say is, I can live with the changes. I would prefer an alternate solution, but if this is what you feel to be the best way to do it, then I'll roll with it. It is not the end of the world.

JadonSky

Jake1576 wrote: »

lol this thread has 19k views now that's a lot lol

Yeah and its sad we still have not heard any comment from ZOS other then they are removing comments they don't like from the thread because people are frustrated.

Giraffon

JadonSky wrote: »

Jake1576 wrote: »

lol this thread has 19k views now that's a lot lol

Yeah and its sad we still have not heard any comment from ZOS other then they are removing comments they don't like from the thread because people are frustrated.

It's enraging to be honest.

RinaldoGandolphi

KingKayanto wrote: »

I suggest everyone votes with their wallet. Luckily my ESO+ sub ended this week. Not gonna continue paying.

Thats all you can do. Its what I am doing.

Not only did ZOS finally kill Sorc but they butchered my unique style of Mag DK with their 12% range nerf on Flame Lash, no Stun on Power Lash, and making Power Lash have a cost lol

its comical, I can't justify giving them a dime anymore.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

I don't understand how were the sorcs compensated for the nerfs. Where was that power distributed? I mean if you nerf something you'd better buff something else or it becomes unfavorable.

They should in my opinion give back 10% more damage to crystal frags and also make the execute proc at 25%. That's the least they should do.

I also tested the PTS and the shield nerfs make any magicka character not only sorcs completely useless in trials (unless you are one of the top 100 players on the server that does not need to use them ever.)

I guess I will play quests for a little bit after the DLS comes out and probable quit the game when that gets boring.

AsNied

This is a HUGE nerf for MagSorc. My main character was MagSorc, and now I do not want to play anymore. Why? Let's look:

- Low resistance in light armor
- Shields skills have casting time
- Damage against shields can be critical
- Shields are shrink in PvP by 50%
- Streaks are negated by all gaps
- You do not have such high endurance on dodge / block / breakfree
- Overload is now forgotten. Yes, it was strong, but this is overkill for that skill and its loses its uniques
- Animals are mindless
- Runecage is now big-lol,
- Previous nerf for Crystal Frag

Is there any reason to play by MagSorc? I have unsubbed and I quit playing until you realize what are you doing.

Regards

Chilly-McFreeze

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I don't understand how were the sorcs compensated for the nerfs. Where was that power distributed? I mean if you nerf something you'd better buff something else or it becomes unfavorable.

They should in my opinion give back 10% more damage to crystal frags and also make the execute proc at 25%. That's the least they should do.

I also tested the PTS and the shield nerfs make any magicka character not only sorcs completely useless in trials (unless you are one of the top 100 players on the server that does not need to use them ever.)

I guess I will play quests for a little bit after the DLS comes out and probable quit the game when that gets boring.

No compensation. Duration doesn't matter. And resistances get drowned in incomming crits and enchant/ poison procs. In penetration anyways. I always liked that crit & pen weren't the BiS in PvP against every single build. We had to spread our stats around to be efficient against everybody. Another way to... "simplify"... build diversity. /claps

Remember the pain points of our class? E.g. Sustain? What did they do? Nerfed dark deal for PvP and let it remain useless for PvE damage dealers. Even as tank you have to be really specific about when to drop block for 1.4s.
Yes, pvp stamsorc shined through, or let's say "get carried" by dark deal. Now it's nerfed and no compensation is given either.

"unreached" mobility brought in line via gap closers and swift? - check
possibility to run with low regen via dark deal nerfed? - check
compensation for tight barspace bc of toggles and dead slots through 3rd bar deleted? - check
main form of survival nerfed into uselessness? - check
still no compensation for stam and mag via harder hitting skills or dmg skills at all? - check

Why should I choose this class over anything else now?

[Edited for discussing moderator action]

Sange13

Seeing that all the recent ZOS posts in PTS threads are about people flaming each other, I have to wonder if they are even taking the feedback seriously. I just want them to engage in the conversation and show they understand our concerns, that's all.

ZOS_Mika

We have removed some comments that discussed moderator action. We are happy to discuss and review specific moderation-related actions with you, but please keep in mind discussion of moderation actions or decisions on our forums is against our Community Rules. Thank you for your understanding.

Sandman929

Sange13 wrote: »

Seeing that all the recent ZOS posts in PTS threads are about people flaming each other, I have to wonder if they are even taking the feedback seriously. I just want them to engage in the conversation and show they understand our concerns, that's all.

Agree completely. No matter what any player's take is on the notes, I think everyone would like to see some communication and further explanation. Otherwise, we're just bickering among ourselves.
Remember the countless times we've asked for ZOS to be more proactive with communication? Dropping the ball again.

Minno

AsNied wrote: »

This is a HUGE nerf for MagSorc. My main character was MagSorc, and now I do not want to play anymore. Why? Let's look:

- Low resistance in light armor also ok in a way, but sorcs should get minor protection on their kit somehow or extra armor resists to offset the crit/resist/cast time changes
- Shields skills have casting time I am ok with this if the shield has a huge value with longer duration but battlespirit and shieldbreaker ruins this suggestion.
- Damage against shields can be critical this is ok, but they need to nerf crit dmg a litte in CP, since nightblades can get 1.9 modifers but crit resists havent reach that level yet. Or else everyone has to go impreg/trans and that isnt fun for build diversity.
- Shields are shrink in PvP by 50% ignore battlespirit for values for sorcs if cast time remains
- Streaks are negated by all gaps they should remove the streak cost increase. no reason to have this anymore with swift now in effect
- You do not have such high endurance on dodge / block / breakfree sorc needs their version of netch/restoring rune!
- Overload is now forgotten. Yes, it was strong, but this is overkill for that skill and its loses its uniques
- Animals are mindless sorc pets need to be nerfed in order to give defense/offense back to the kit. they are doing that with warden bear and it makes no sense they refuse to do it for sorcs. They can buff the pets in other ways for those that like to play zookeeper.
- Runecage is now big-lol, frags stun needs to come back!
- Previous nerf for Crystal Frag

Is there any reason to play by MagSorc? I have unsubbed and I quit playing until you realize what are you doing.

Regards

added my thoughts!

Sandman929

How hard is it for someone to put into words the thought process behind a contentious change like shield cast times? I assume there is a direction, or a reason for wanting this change in the game that's a little more nuanced than "well, we had to do something, so it's this".
Sure, light armor can increase their mitigation through many paths (most of which they are simply reluctant to do because it's not what they're used to) but how does this change affect players in non-CP content (which ZOS has decided to support)? How does this change affect light armor when one of the paths to better mitigation is completely disabled in a portion of the game? Was there any thought put into that?
Just say something ZOS, because more than any nerf or buff or change this habit of clamming up like a petulant stubborn child is the most annoying constant after you ask us for feedback.

ZOS_RobGarrett

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

BretonMage

Having a cast time for shield means my sorc and her summon are both defenceless for the duration of the cast time. Increased efficiency for resistances does not affect pets, so how will I have any chance at all of keeping my pet alive in difficult battles? Please, please don't implement cast time for shields.

Biro123

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

Have you considered the mobility and sustain of magsorc with these changes in mind? The strength of a shield now NEEDS resists to last over a single cooldown - which is a big push towards heavy armour. Yet how can a magsorc sustain in heavy armour?
And also mobility? Streak already removes all your momentum.. If we need to streak then shield - the cast time slows your movement... Sorc Mobility is already heavily challenged with all the stam-swift setups around. This is an additional hit to that.

I get the intention, but with shields often lasting only 1-2 seconds when under pressure anyway - how can it be more strategic? Perhaps if they stayed up much longer, the idea would be workable..

Thraben

Sange13 wrote: »

Seeing that all the recent ZOS posts in PTS threads are about people flaming each other, I have to wonder if they are even taking the feedback seriously. I just want them to engage in the conversation and show they understand our concerns, that's all.

At the moment they´re as shocked as we are. Granted, they expected a [removed profanity] because of the shields, but they didn´t expect it to be that bad, and maybe even thought at least the StamSorcs would be happy. Now the anger is multiplying and even creates a lot of negativity,

Of course, they could have read the Class rep discussion where such things were posted because we sensed the coming storm, but they decided not to listen:

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

This is high on our priority list for mag sorc now. Wrobel is looking at options for reworking Overload, and we have advised him to move in that direction with it.

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

If there is a proposal to scrap the third bar I will rally all the sorcs of Tamriel. We will be heard! Don't kid yourselves, Bound Armaments is not going to be moved to a passive, we will not get snare immunity from class skills, and we will not get more utility rolled into class skills. The forums couldn't handle it, it will be worse than the uproar over Sloads. But for my part I will make Sloads QQ look like a child's game if they go after my third bar.

Deleting the third bar itself is just the top of the iceberg. It is the years of perceived utter disregard towards StamSorcs that creates additional anger, leaving us as a dead hull of a class that can only use the same weapon skills as everyone else.
What are we without Implosion, Overload, Hurricane Streak, and Dark Deal?

With our class speed given to everyone, our AoE nerfed by 25% in PvP, our sustain skill gutted and given to the Psijics, and our Negate imitated by those as well?

Manoevre Bots in PvP? Even THAT role could be taken away from us and given to the Nightblades if you look closely at the patch notes.

Faulgor

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

I thought as much, thanks for illuminating your thought process on this. I still think making shields a short channel that charges your shield up over ~1 second instead of a cast would be a better compromise, as it would lock you out of combat just as much (just like block and dodge) but not leave you utterly defenseless while using your main defensive ability.

code65536

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

@ZOS_RobGarrett There were so many ways to nerf shields without adding a cast time. And no, cast time does not and has not ever made combat "more interesting".

A "shield fatigue" system where subsequent casts would be less effective or more costly would've worked far better.

But I want to highlight your view that shields are "out of line" in PvE by asking you a question: How many devs have attempted vCR +3? Are you aware of the kind of damage spikes there are in that trial? Are you aware that if a Malicious Strike picks you as its random target while you are stacked for a Roaring Flare, that you are dead if you don't have a shield? Are you aware that if multiple Malicious Strikes target you (again, they are random), that they will wipe you out in less than a second if you don't have a shield? None of this is something that people can heal through. And we are already asking people to run more health in vCR than in other trials.

There are many players who main stamina, who prefer stamina, and they are forced to come as magicka for certain content, precisely because there is so much damage where damage shields are the only viable solution. So, no, I take special objection to your comment about PvE and suspect that your dev team that wipes in normal Cloudrest is probably wildly out of touch with with what kinds of challenges we are faced with in vet DLC content.

Sandman929

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

Thanks a lot for the clarification. For me, I'm just happy to see such an interest in combat mechanics. I never thought I'd see a change with this kind of impact.

o_0

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

Instead of overly complicating this with compounding nerfs, how about start small. Lets look at 2 main concerns as I see them.

1. Shield stacking
2. Shield spamming

A simple way to address this without such major impact.

1. Shields cannot stack. Self cast shields overwrite shields applied by other group members or previously self cast shields.
2. Increase the cost of shields for those you consider to easy to spam, such as hardened ward.

Then see how that goes and what is effected and go from there. Transitioning from the current design to your proposed design is like jumping out of a parked car trying to board a moving train.

Irylia

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

Fun fact.. magsorcs werent stacking damage sets and havent been since morrowind. :mind blown:

They are mainly forced into shackle lich or variants of sustain just to be able to afford the high cost, high uptime on skills. And even still the nerf to recovery and cost reduction in both light/cp leaves a huge dent in our sustain. More so than any other class to the point that even the. It’s a struggle.

Now our frag has lost considerable damage.
Curse is seeing an indirect nerf from shuffle dmg mit. Fury has two chances to miss once on application of debuff and once on proc.

Our streak has delay on both ends and is terrible when faced with a hill.

We lost healing on surge
Lost resources on dark deal

Two of our defensives (ward/dark deal) require a cast time

Boundless hasn’t seen buffs in the past 3 years

Our class is outdated with the other changes that have happened around it.

You don’t even give anything in return to utilize so we don’t have to turn to wards so hard.

The blood passive for healing could be buffed. Surge reverted, streak reverted, curse applying a low pulse dmg up to the proc explosion but still enough to proc the healing passive. Something

Major exp or speed from swift is more readily available to players so the spacing from streak is null and obsolete. At the very least free our streak from delay and cost increase and the cast times would be manageable because our mitigation is spacing.

[removed inappropriate comment]

casparian

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic.

Sure, but there are other ways to make shield-user's choice beween damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. I'm in favor of shield nerfs, but outside of a couple situational exceptions, no one likes cast times. Cast times in the middle of a fast-paced combat situation may be good for balance on paper, but they make combat feel clunky and are not fun. Please, stop balancing things by means of cast times.

RebornV3x

Its funny how every other class feedback thread is at like 5 or 6 pages this thread is nearly at 20

Anyways this reminds me of the shield duration nerf back around 2.3 that thread as well as this thread will get 60+ pages and thousands of replies and the 1 second cast time on wards will still go live whats the point of even creating this thread or posting anything meaningful when it will just be ignored.

Save yourself a few minutes and do something productive with your lives instead of posting on this thread that will be largly ignored.