PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

Minno

Biro123 wrote: »

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

Have you considered the mobility and sustain of magsorc with these changes in mind? The strength of a shield now NEEDS resists to last over a single cooldown - which is a big push towards heavy armour. Yet how can a magsorc sustain in heavy armour?
And also mobility? Streak already removes all your momentum.. If we need to streak then shield - the cast time slows your movement... Sorc Mobility is already heavily challenged with all the stam-swift setups around. This is an additional hit to that.

I get the intention, but with shields often lasting only 1-2 seconds when under pressure anyway - how can it be more strategic? Perhaps if they stayed up much longer, the idea would be workable..

Based on his comment, they really do need to remove the steak cost increase mechanic and give shields something persistent for during the cast time. It is only logical given that stam/swift can move around easier combined with forward momentum.

Pipin77

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

And how will this correct the pve? I do not know who the class representative is, but apparently he never closed vCR+3 or vAS+2, or even vMoLHM, otherwise I can not explain such changes. You force to cut the damage and dispel the survival rate, because no heal you will not protect from striking at 16k. Heal will not run with you on the cats. On the AS, you offer to take 3 heals? Well then, what kind of DPS should you have when you have to lower it for the sake of hp, or for the shield with a cast time?
You can make such changes, but then do x2 damage to all the sorcerer's abilities. Let him deal damage as a stamina class. Why not?

Thraben

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,


First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.


In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

People complained about shield stacking, not about shields. I know no healer who EVER complained about shields stealing their job; the abundance of skills that are supposed to heal others but are mainly used to heal oneself steal their job.

Combating shield stacking by applying a cast time to shields is like treating a wound by shooting the patient.

AsNied

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

The problems is, that most of the time PvP looks like "One shot, or be one shoted". This is the problem for PvP. But, this game isn't only PvP or only PvE. Most changes do impact for two of this. Theres is too much random damages, like sets bonuses, poisons, proc enchants, and more.

Lightarmored characters, even these mediumarmored, are too fragille. I can live with cast time for shield, but I need to stay alive long enough to predict damage. Additionaly shields time should be longered to 30 sec like was many years before. This may be good for PvE and PvP.

I have been playing these game since closed beta. For 3 years subscribeing, not to mention buying crowns for time to time, but these changes is enough for me to leave game.

Karm1cOne

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

@ZOS_RobGarrett
How does the dev team perceive sorcs building post cast time shield? Do you expect mitigation through heavy armor? Mobile in light armor? What build style do the devs want sorcs in if shields aren't it?

SorataArisugawa

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,
[...]

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

[...]

Where do you get, that this it is a bunch of effective health? It is no heal, if you got hit by oblivion dmg, you are still dead, despide the shield, and there is enough of it in the game....
And you can CCed and taking DMG, during losing the clobal cooldown. What an OP skill...
If there is presure on you, a shild only helps just very short. You have to have to get away fast as possible. Nice, that you declared the only defence Sorcs have as OP, but it is just not the case.

1sec casttime is the worst of all nerf. NOBODY uses skills with casttime in this game. Do you know why? Just listen to the players for once. With this nerf, you ripped the spell out of our spellbook for PVP, and it was our only defence. Nice!

RMerlin

I will mostly focus my feedback on PvP since I don't do any endgame PvE content.

Shields:

The cast time on shields are a death sentence for magsorcs, as in PvP, many other classes are able to unleash enough damage to kill you in 1 to 2 secs if you don't have a shield up. So if your shield is down and you start to recast it, you will most likely be dead before it finishes casting.

Increasing the duration does not mitigate the impact. Shield duration are only a quality of life feature, since once you enter combat, no shield would ever last the whole 9 seconds.

Making things crit against shields: I think it`s a good idea to balance things out. However, that should be done on its own, not combined with every single other nerfs currently applied to shields in general.

Introducing a cast time means shields are no longer a viable defense once you have entered into an active combat. Even if the interruptability is removed, it still leaves you a complete sitting duck for close to two seconds (since a 1 second cast time never takes only a single second to cast and activate).

My recommendation:

- Remove the cast time
- Keep the change that allows damage to crit against shields
- Work out a way to prevent having more than one shield up at a time, OR
- increase the cost to prevent shield spamming to be a viable solution


Overload:

All of these changes completely kill what was defining Overload as a unique skill. From my understanding, ZOS would like to make us weave other skills with Overload attacks, just like with regular attacks, which is why they are reducing the damage to compensate. This won't balance out. With a 50% damage reduction, an Overload attack is not gonna bring any meaningful advantage over a regular light attack - at least not one to justify the fact it's an Ultimate.

Removing the third hotbar is disappointing (personally I was using that hotbar only to buff/complement my overload, not to use as just a free hotbar), but I understand the reasoning behind it, and I think it's a fair change.

Overload has already been toned down over the years. While it used to do some ridiculous damage two years ago, these days my average crit is barely higher than that of another similar skill, unless my target decided that running with zero critical resistance was a good idea. It's current damage is therefore just fine.

My recommendation:
- Remove the third hotbar (so people not actually using Overload for what it is but as a free hotbar won't be able to keep doing so)
- Leave everything else as it was. No damage reduction, no weavability. Overload should turn you into a different "play mode", where rather than going through a fluid combo, you turn into just one big ball shooter (with limited access to other skills)
- Fix the various bugs surrounding Overload. When PvP gets lagged, Overload is impossible to use. Quite often, a light attack will accidentally "lock you" into heavy attack channeling mode.


Defensive Rune:

Can we please stop nerfing this defensive ability just because its other morph was overpowered? Nobody has complained about how Defensive Rune was implemented before. It was a sorceror's only defense against one-shot-killer gankers. Adding a 1.5s casting delay means that those ganker will be able to instant kill you while you are riding, before the defensive measure can trigger in. I can't really comment on the other morph's need for nerfs because I never used that morph, but I don't like that in fixing an OP morph, you are also destroying the other morph that was just fine as it was.

Combined with the shield changes, this Defensive Rune change hurts us even more.

My recommendation:
- Leave Defensive Rune alone while on your quest to balance its alternative morph. It already got toned down last patch since it's now dodgeable. Adding a delay to it makes it useless for the situations we usually relied on it.

(EDIT: fixed typo on that last paragraph.)

arasysb14_ESO

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

How do we even take this seriously when other classes have skills like cloak? How can you possibly believe making combat clunky is more interesting in anyway?

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

i have been here since beta, and never seen you guys really reverse the impactful nerfs. It's always "go test some more we may change things right before launch, then silence, then changes players hate go live.

Just remove the cast time, seriously playing sorcerer never felt this awful. It's that simple, it's a game and it needs to be fun.
You are ignoring tons of PVE scenarios (tons of one shot mechanics in DLC dungeons) and fun gameplay for your justification. Why can't we remove cast time for PTS 2 to see players' reaction?

Minno

Irylia wrote: »

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

Fun fact.. magsorcs werent stacking damage sets and havent been since morrowind. :mind blown:

They are mainly forced into shackle lich or variants of sustain just to be able to afford the high cost, high uptime on skills. And even still the nerf to recovery and cost reduction in both light/cp leaves a huge dent in our sustain. More so than any other class to the point that even the. It’s a struggle.

Now our frag has lost considerable damage.
Curse is seeing an indirect nerf from shuffle dmg mit. Fury has two chances to miss once on application of debuff and once on proc.

Our streak has delay on both ends and is terrible when faced with a hill.

We lost healing on surge
Lost resources on dark deal

Two of our defensives (ward/dark deal) require a cast time

Boundless hasn’t seen buffs in the past 3 years

Our class is outdated with the other changes that have happened around it.

You don’t even give anything in return to utilize so we don’t have to turn to wards so hard.

The blood passive for healing could be buffed. Surge reverted, streak reverted, curse applying a low pulse dmg up to the proc explosion but still enough to proc the healing passive. Something

Major exp or speed from swift is more readily available to players so the spacing from streak is null and obsolete. At the very least free our streak from delay and cost increase and the cast times would be manageable because our mitigation is spacing.

[removed inappropriate comment]

I agree with these here.

Patricklose123

Dark Deals
Well...no people will be use this in pve. it has an cast time and spell symmetrie gives me more magicka and that is instand.

Deadric Pray
Sorry but noone in endgame content played an pet sorc today. the buff is good for new player and solo players but please think about the game sorcerers.

Winged Twilight:
Sorry but noone in endgame content played an pet sorc today. the buff is good for new player and solo players but please think about the game sorcerers.

Volatile Familar:
Sorry but noone in endgame content played an pet sorc today. the buff is good for new player and solo players but please think about the game sorcerers.

Overload:
The changes in the pve scene are realy ok. but in pve u cant use is. light attacks got 50% nerf and the animation is to slow to get high dps with sorcs.allready noone will be play that in pve.

liquid lightning:
PLEASE give them an other animantion. the animation of this is to slow. dont let them in a circle beaucse an vertical animation will be better for the group. the dmg of the ability is ok.

sustain:
PLEASE give the mag sorc an better sustain. i play him since beta and he got nohting....its only in the group for the syngeries and alkosh uptime.

Elemental Weapon:
the 10% more cost its to much for the magicka classes aktually. pls buff it for 5% more cost thats realy ok....

Juju_beans

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,
[...]

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

[...]

Where do you get, that this it is a bunch of effective health? It is no heal, if you got hit by oblivion dmg, you are still dead, despide the shield, and there is enough of it in the game....
And you can CCed and taking DMG, during losing the clobal cooldown. What an OP skill...
If there is presure on you, a shild only helps just very short. You have to have to get away fast as possible. Nice, that you declared the only defence Sorcs have as OP, but it is just not the case.

1sec casttime is the worst of all nerf. NOBODY uses skills with casttime in this game. Do you know why? Just listen to the players for once. With this nerf, you ripped the spell out of our spellbook for PVP, and it was our only defence. Nice!

Statements like this from players is what make many ignore some of these "feedback" posts.

Pevey

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

NO OTHER CLASS has to make such a drastic choice right now. If this is really the direction (which I disagree with since it will destroy all vestiges of fast, fluid combat) why sorcs first without such changes to other classes' reactive defense capabilities? I don't even main a sorc or even a magicka character, but I do have a magsorc I've invested time in. This cast time change just makes no sense.

And as far as "throw a bunch of effective health on yourself" goes, did the devs forget magicka are generally supposed to be wearing light armor, and that activating shields (which cost resources and a GCD already) wisely are meant to be their defense? Stripping that away is just mind-boggling.

Galarthor

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

Thanks for the reply and explanation, but:

Funny how dodge roll, block, cloak, heal escaped this.

Especially dodge roll that can be woven in with abilities. It can't get much more double standard than this!
And there are plenty of builds that perma block without having to really sacirfice damage.
And Cloak essentially works like a hybrid of Dodge and shield. It negates damage with no upper limit, but unlike dodge it cannot be woven with abilities (just like shields). So following your logic cloak should also get a cast time.
And templars can heal themselves for 12k or even far more. It's pretty much the same as shields as both are extensions of your HP pool. Where is the cast time for that?

Don't get me wrong. I don't want to see any cast times. It is stupid idea. But if you go down that road then at least be consistent and don't apply double standards.

fr33r4ng3r

This is not a rant or whine. I understand you are trying to do what's best for the game. I just wanted to provide you with my honest feedback.

As it stands Empowered Ward feels super clunky and has removed any feeling of smooth and fun combat for me. To be clear, I feel that way about all cast time abilities and never slot them - they just don't fit in with the high twitch combat style I prefer. I removed Ward from my bar as it's no longer worth slotting - there is enough RNG to contend with without rolling the dice on a damage shield too. My group loses Minor Intellect but groups seem to be more and more stamina focused so it's not a huge deal.

The damage on my MagSorc is lower then my newly minted, not yet maxed undaunted MagBlade (at least in vet dungeons). I'll test which one has better survivability in vMA without the shield (*cough MagBlade) and that will be the character I end up taking into vet trials.

One other thing. Please, please make achievements account wide. My MagSorc main has all my achievements and I've been slowly knocking out the vet trials ones, but it looks like he'll be relegated to crafting now and finishing out achievements is one of the few areas I still feel a sense of progression.

Pevey

"Sometimes when you innovate, you make mistakes. It is best to admit them quickly, and get on with improving your other innovations."

Steve Jobs

Just admit it already.

JarlUlfric

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

You've been with ZOS for less than a year, I don't mean to be rude but you should get out there and get an idea of what being a Sorcerer really means and play this game, you'll find that the current state of being a sorc and being forced to run 2 sustain sets to be even able to manage our ridiculous low pressure DPS and our defenses is absurd.

I agree, making choices between DPS and Living does make combat interesting, but with this change you're absolutely removing the 'living' part from the equation. As it stands for a sorcerer to maintain any semblance of damage and sustain in pvp we require to wear light armor because of our class passives aren't like the other classes where they can sustain like crazy.

You remove the Sorcerer's ability to reactively shield in combat to damage, and you kill the sorcerer period. There is no other way around it. The only way you can balance this change is to give Sorcerer's more access to sustain and healing, but that's not going to happen is it? So just revert this abortion of a balance decision.

TBois

Sorc going towards the new cast time class. We have dark deal and conjured ward. We need to run channeled acceleration for minor force. Give us more cast times! And this game can have a truly great combat system in line with every other action mmo.

Glory

I don't really play damage shield classes, but I have to throw in my two cents and say that the cast time changes are ridiculous.

The fact that you already show a concern for them, and have made an exception to a gameplay design (interruptable cast times) shows that this is not the correct direction. Having to make an exception to a rule when you're making a change indicates that the change is improper, and there must be a better solution (in this case, ideas such as lowering the strength of damage shields, increasing cost, crittable etc.).

I think it's reasonable to make changes to the potency of damage shields if you find they are truly out of line, but a cast time makes them absolutely unusable in almost every real situation (i.e. higher level PvE and PvP).

I also want to voice my concern over the sheer quantity of changes to damage shields this patch. It has long been a smart practice to make incremental changes to game mechanics in MMOs. Example: I'd think that first pushing through crittable shields with resistances would be worth trying (as is currently ALSO happening), then if additional changes need to be made, so be it. But having changes to crittable AND cast-time shields is crazy.

Merlin13KAGL

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

Hmmm perhaps I need to look over the notes again, because I didn't see anything stand out on other classes that required choice between damage and suvivability.

The problem with the "effective health" argument is that it never includes the 'effective damage' on expiration. A little disappointing and perhaps telling that this part is missed by the Devs themselves.

There are some clearly topheavy classes, concerning DPS, and the attempt to throttle some of that back in one breath, while basically giving it right back in a different form in the next doesn't work.

(NB added cost on a small number of skills, then doubling return of HA Leeching/Siphoning and letting HA's count double for bow proc's are a few that stand out.)

You have classes doing 60-70k dps in some hands, which is ridiculous. You have proc sets that can add out 6k+ from just LA's.

It would be worth so much more to the community if changes were considered based on suggested feedback, as opposed to this cycle where poor choices are made, and we as a community have to go through and explain why they're poor.

Zero sustain benefit for non-pet builds, nerf even further if you used Exchange.

If so much of the content in this game wasn't riddled with mechanics that dropped you in 1-3 hits, there might be an argument here. It's pretty clear Light Armor is the intent for Magicka damage dealers, and when skills don't fire half the time in the first place, 1 second cast times are hardly different from removing the skill entirely.

Quit with the bulk, sweeping changes, with zero discussion before hand, and fix the basics of the game that have been broken or buggy for almost 5 years now.

Your Devs will have more time on their hands if they implement positive things going forward, instead of having to spend so much time having to (potentially) undo negative ones.

LadyNalcarya

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

The problem is, you cannot make combat more strategic and fun by making skills clunky.
There's already a lot of problems with cast time skills, such as snipe or uppercut. Generally they arent even worth using because ESO combat is too fast-paced for this kind of stuff.
It's also disheartening to see that this nerf is specifically aimed at sorc. It's the most beginner-friendly class, and I believe that it will make beginner's experience (especially in trials) much worse. Making content impossible for starters is not a good idea, it just really isnt. A lot of veteran instances are already designed with shields/off heals in mind, and taking them away will make it extremely hard or even impossible. No amount of skillful play will save you from unavoidable damage in vet trials and dungeons, especially if your group is trying to learn the content and you might need to ressurect people etc.
Pvp-wise, shields are the only way of mitigating damage for light armor builds. Some classes also have heals, but you guys are going to add a set that blocks healing so shields would be the only viable counterplay. 1 second is a lot in pvp, and if you're ganked, for example, and initial burst left you at 20-30% hp, you will not be able to shield with this cast time change, which makes light armor builds useless.

Shield stacking might be too OP in certain situations, but you could solve that just by removing the stacking.

And when you're making changes, please keep in mind that top raiding guilds and 1vX pvpers are actually a very small part of the community. Please do not kill vet pve and small group pvp for average players. Please stop alienating your playerbase.

Sandman929

Lots of thinly veiled insults in the previous criticisms. Here's the thing, there's nothing fun about a cast time. Ever. For any reason. No fun added.
Sorc's shield gets a cast time because it's a powerful shield, and sadly for Sorcs they're the only class with a powerful shield. If cheap easy shielding is the target of the change that ZOS thinks needs to happen, great, I'm ready to try a change because I agree that shields are very strong, but this change isn't interesting it's annoying.

Nicko_Lps

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

Just take a look how many subs you loose and how many players will uninstall this game JUST to please the forum warriors that targeted magica sorc just because they have 0 knowledge on how to counter them.


Critable shields and cast time shields dont work, will never do no matter how hard you try.

JadonSky

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

I like how they totally ignored everyone in the thread and basically said to bad to sad. 90% of the thread has stated how cast time has ruined the gameplay for this class and other mag classes that use shield and have given plenty of examples, alternatives, and detail numbers about why and how. If you listen to the player base, like you say you are, you would remove the cast time. But instead of admitting the change was wrong and listen to the player base your going to keep it the way it is and tweak it for the next 5 patches.

Koolio

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

This also means the Venom arrow (the morph nobody uses anymore) didn’t get its needed buff this patch.

WTB Venom arrow Buff

The_Lex

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

Perhaps you don't remember, but when the forums went ape over the Morrowind sustain nerfs proposed on PTS, ZOS doubled down and refused to revert them. Now, ZOS has been trying to walk back those nerfs in one form or another over the last few patches. I'm quite sure that history will repeat itself.

SenorCrouch

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

@ZOS_RobGarrett I have to highly disagree with your assessment in that adding cast times makes combat more interesting. Especially when it comes to a class focused on DPS. Rob, you come from Riot Games. Imagine if Riot started throwing cast times on spells for ADC champions. Imagine if Miss Fortune or Ashe had to wait 1 second before Flash blinked you away from a team fight that was going south. They'd be dead before the channel could finish. Oh sure you could blame the Support, but the Support can only do so much. They can only heal so quickly.

Same type of situations can be found in trials, especially in vet trials. Have you ever played a Sorc as a DPS in something like Vet Cloudrest? Those damage spikes are crazy that are sudden and random. We, Sorcs, cannot survive that for more than a second. Throw all the CC Immunity you want on it, death won't make it matter much. So what is our solution here? To make sure your Healer is Jesus who has the omnipresence to foresee what the Bosses will do before they do or that we recruit a TASbot?

Slowing the flow of combat is not a solution. I would have imagined a Riot Games Dev to understand that.

Alaztor91

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

Would you mind giving us a few examples of these situations in which damage shields stood as being out of line? Just a few examples from both PvE and PvP scenarios so that maybe we could try to comprehend this absurd change.

Natas013

I’ve had some time to calm down and think about it. I want to repeat what has been said before by someone, maybe it was me but I don’t recall. Shields should be separated in major/minor and only allow one of each to be active at a time. IMO base major should be conjured, annulment, set granted, and crystallized, and the rest minor. Adding a cast time will only create a whole nother set of problems. Making shields critable, even with added resistance, when they can’t crit is ridiculous. Might as well make heals uncritable and make crits from stealth/cloak 50% more likely.

Dark exchange NEEDS the cast time removed to be a viable skill in its current iteration. Reduce the heal slightly or buff it but make it a HOT

Fix overload where using it and activating it isn’t garbage, and let us weapon swap out of it. Also since the overload change gutted the closest thing we had to a class spamable, give us a class spamable.

Remove our remaining toggles since we don’t have a third bar anymore. Sort it out.

Bolt escape… This needs tweaking. Streak needs to stack cost every other cast while in combat on the same timer, allowing two casts before increasing cost. Increase the amount of the increase to balance this. BoL needs either a reduction to the increased cost or a range increase, I’d prefer the range. Lastly remove the invisible wall you hit at the end, it’s unrealistic, imersion breaking, and dumb.

If you can’t take your hat rack out of your posterior cavity, then I reiterate in short, class change tokens and delete the class.

SirAndy

arasysb14_ESO wrote: »

i have been here since beta, and never seen you guys really reverse the impactful nerfs. It's always "go test some more we may change things right before launch, then silence, then changes players hate go live.

Yepp, that about sums it up ...

oxygen_thief

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

you guys are wrong. it wont be interesting. if you want to rid off from sorcs shields you need to rework entire class. you need to add dots, hots class spamable and other staff like that like other classes have. then sorcs will be able to use heavy armor with s&b and survivability will be an option. no we can choose only two ways to play to lie dead or to change class. its not interesting