PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

JamesDX

Minalan wrote: »

JamesDX wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

JamesDX wrote: »

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

The only damage shield that is a real issue for being too strong is healing ward, the one that didn't get changed...

I see you haven't looked at it on PTS.

It lost the up front heal (gone from the tool tip).

It's also critable, so it will never stay up long enough to do it's job.

It wasn't quoted in the patch notes, I was not aware, another ninja nerf it seems...

And you're... Somehow... surprised by this?

Healing ward was a great skill to cast after resing someone. The instant heal and shield gave them a fighting chance to put themselves together.

Now, notsomuch.

Not in the slightest am I surprised, I am however disappointed...

UrQuan

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

Hey @ZOS_RobGarrett has your in-house team tested the 1 second cast time for shield by completing all vet trials on hard mode with a group heavy on magicka DPS (sorcs in particular, but this impacts all magicka DPS)?

What were the results?

Brother, if you really think that they test what they change i really am envious of your hope and great expectations!

I definitely don't think they tested this change with any endgame PVE content, because if they did I can't imagine how it would have made it off the drawing board. A 1 second cast time is going to make it very difficult for experienced magicka DPS to survive a lot of different vet trials mechanics. Even worse is the impact to less experienced magicka DPS who are trying to learn trials.

Edit: it's probably worth noting that I'm looking at this from the point of view of someone who almost exclusively plays a DK tank for endgame content (sometimes I'll play a Templar healer). This isn't going to make me suddenly start getting killed. It is going to make me have to deal with losing half the team every time certain mechanics come up, and deal with a lot more wipes from things like CR+3.

LeifErickson

I'm gonna start off by saying the only thing I think needs to be adjusted is harness magicka morph specifically. The mag return you get from it is too much. Otherwise I think shields are fine on live right now.

But let's assume shields are the most overpowered thing in this game. Then yes they need to be nerfed if that was true. Adding a cast time is not the right nerf. Why? Because it's not fun. Cast times are not fun. There have been so many nerfs in this game that have specifically made things less fun.

For example, you can no longer leap into keeps. Man was that not the most fun thing I've ever seen in this game. I was always envious of DKs doing that because it looked like a lot of fun.

Another example, no cost increase on streak. Tell me you didn't love being able to streak all over the place back when you could do that. Man did I want to be a sorc back then because that looked like so much fun.

Another example, shard cc use to be so cool. Throw a couple shards in the air and a moment later they would come down from the sky and stun your opponents. Sadly that was taken away too.

Let's not forget how cool you would feel cloaking a meteor right before it fell on you, or purifying it, or even reflecting it.

I'm sure I'm missing so many things that have been changed to be less fun. But shield cast time is about to be the new one.

Whatever you do ZOS, don't remove more of the fun from your game. Shields on a sorc are fun how they are now. They make you feel like a sorc. They make you feel powerful. Don't make sorcs more like all the other classes. If you have to nerf shields, nerf harness magicka or just stick with the change that they can crit and only do that. Don't add more cast times. Cast times aren't fun. Sorcs won't be as fun anymore if this goes live.

MissBizz

Can you please round up a group of devs ready, but new to, vHRC? Be sure to take them through the the topside boss (Yokeda Kai) in it's current state, and get that unfamiliar healer to heal all those magicka DPS during starfall.

It's not just the super end game vCR +3 you're crushing, but all those people trying to get into or work through vet trials. Many of those folks are already padding their health to help with their survivability. What more do you want them to do? Wear more heavy armor? They can't - you must wear 5 light to even have access to the shield!

Cast times are not fun, they don't feel more strategic - they feel frustrating and clunky.

[EDIT] It's an issue for more than just sorcs.

dimensional

BretonMage wrote: »

Having a cast time for shield means my sorc and her summon are both defenceless for the duration of the cast time. Increased efficiency for resistances does not affect pets, so how will I have any chance at all of keeping my pet alive in difficult battles? Please, please don't implement cast time for shields.

Shields need a cast time, learn to work around it like literally every other class has learned to work around their various changes.

ruikkarikun

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

@ZOS_RobGarrett
Hi, shield casting don't make combat more interesting.

If you will do this change any stamina DD will have all skills without cast time - this is fast and fun playstyle. (PVE)

But sorcerer need to think about strategy for casting main defence ability?
How it can be interesting and fun in places like Veteran Cloudrest +3, vMA, any vet trials or vet dungeons where you need to react on high dps attacks from bosses/mechanics?
Healer can't overheal that, and not each heal is good.
And for healers. Nerfing shields to make healers more needed? So you think we damage dealers are who, garbage? I mean how about one shot mechanics? How about selfhealing when damage dealer play solo enjoing big world and quests.
And finally I don't know from where do you get statistics about healers, I did FH only twice and any vet trial NEED HEAL LIKE A MUST. When I play with heal vetd DLC dungeon it's very good, so who are those who complain? Trolls?

@Alcast said in his videos with detailed examples why sorcerer sustain is very bad now (on Live server) and you think casting delay abilities will make sustain better?


Also you reducing sorcerer damage, because any other dd can cast their abilities instant and sorcerer will lose 2-3 seconds for casting shield. Why other classes will have instant abilities on their rotation and only sorcerer will have main not instant?


Adding crit to shields is ok for me, I agree that it will be better for fair gameplay in PVP but still cast time

• interrupting combat while other classes don't have this problem with must have abilities
• not fun
• looks very very bad like character gets slow mind etc
• makes you one shoted to any big hit in PVE like dots/aoe/attacks, also did you know some bosses in your game or even usual; mobs (skyreach) can knockback or stun you and with low stamina (all magicka class has this problem) you won't cast even instant shield.

I'm asking to save instant shiled at least for casual and dynamic play till you find new way to improve sustain and selfhealing options.

I have a friend, he play pet sorc, 800cp+ but he didn't beat veteran Maelstorm arena last event, it can be L2P issue, but how do you think the majority players are very skillfull, have cap cp, and you do realize how hurt this change will for them?

Magicka sorcerer is good class for new players, it's very friendly and comfortable.
If you will left cast time it will be dead for those people. And what reaction you expect when you make dynamic combat slower and less defensive for light armor players?

Hope you will revert cast time to instant.
Maybe you can make shields not stackable. Or some other changes, but please think about alternatives and sorcerer sustain. I'm sure it's not so hard, but as you can see many people here and I asked in guilds/zone chat - we love dynamic combat again, casti time just sad and to be honest I fell I don't want to play even now, and I have other chars, just nerf like that makes people very sad and frustrated.

Sry for wall of text and thank you.

LadyNalcarya

dimensional wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Having a cast time for shield means my sorc and her summon are both defenceless for the duration of the cast time. Increased efficiency for resistances does not affect pets, so how will I have any chance at all of keeping my pet alive in difficult battles? Please, please don't implement cast time for shields.

Shields need a cast time, learn to work around it like literally every other class has learned to work around their various changes.

Okay. Let's imagine a normal pvp situation. You're getting ganked in Cyrodiil, but managed to survive initial burst and now you're at 20-30% of your hp.
How would you """""""adapt""""""? Normally you'd just shield up and counter attack, but guess what? Nb execute or executioner dont have cast time and will finish you off before you can take a dump cast your shield. There's literally no way to survive this situation with cast time on shields, no matter how good or skilled you are. Especially with the new set that blocks healing.
And it applies to all light armor magicka classes, not just sorcs.

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, we've removed a few nonconstructive comments. This is a reminder to please keep comments on topic and constructive, thank you.

Galarthor

dimensional wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Having a cast time for shield means my sorc and her summon are both defenceless for the duration of the cast time. Increased efficiency for resistances does not affect pets, so how will I have any chance at all of keeping my pet alive in difficult battles? Please, please don't implement cast time for shields.

Shields need a cast time, learn to work around it like literally every other class has learned to work around their various changes.

Sure, give the 1 sec cast time to the defensive all defensive abilities of the other classes as well and we will see how the cope. And not just to 1 defensive tool out of many for each class, but to every single one ... except for heals from resto.

LadyNalcarya

UrQuan wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

Hey @ZOS_RobGarrett has your in-house team tested the 1 second cast time for shield by completing all vet trials on hard mode with a group heavy on magicka DPS (sorcs in particular, but this impacts all magicka DPS)?

What were the results?

Brother, if you really think that they test what they change i really am envious of your hope and great expectations!

I definitely don't think they tested this change with any endgame PVE content, because if they did I can't imagine how it would have made it off the drawing board. A 1 second cast time is going to make it very difficult for experienced magicka DPS to survive a lot of different vet trials mechanics. Even worse is the impact to less experienced magicka DPS who are trying to learn trials.

Edit: it's probably worth noting that I'm looking at this from the point of view of someone who almost exclusively plays a DK tank for endgame content (sometimes I'll play a Templar healer). This isn't going to make me suddenly start getting killed. It is going to make me have to deal with losing half the team every time certain mechanics come up, and deal with a lot more wipes from things like CR+3.

Dev team wasnt able to clear vMoS hardmode. I'm pretty sure they never attempted vCR+3 or vAS+2.
And yeah, I'm a templar healer and I'm really afraid that a lot of people will quit if this change goes live. Morrowind already forced many people to quit and this nerf is even worse: Morrowind nerfs at least equalized everyone while this one only targets magicka players. This alone causes a huge disbalance. Nerfing damage, sustain, etc is one thing but putting players in situations where they cannot win (pvp ganking, vet trials will be nearly impossible to survive if you're less than perfect player in less than perfect team) is simply not fair. This is by far the most toxic change ever implemented in this game.
Forum posters are a small minority, many players dont even care enough to read them or make an account. And I know many people who dont post here but still they are planning to leave if shield nerf goes live.

UrQuan

dimensional wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Having a cast time for shield means my sorc and her summon are both defenceless for the duration of the cast time. Increased efficiency for resistances does not affect pets, so how will I have any chance at all of keeping my pet alive in difficult battles? Please, please don't implement cast time for shields.

Shields need a cast time, learn to work around it like literally every other class has learned to work around their various changes.

If you had ever done any endgame PVE you would know why this change isn't just a sorc problem. It effectively means that magicka DPS of any class will be a handicap to trials groups in a significant number of boss fights. A cast time that's longer than the telegraph for a mechanic means that you're not going to get that shield up in time to avoid the mechanic. In many cases that means you're dead before the healer can do anything.

Arciris

@ZOS_RobGarrett
First, thank you for popping by in this mess of a thread, really appreciated

Shields are a big issue for all mag users but since this is a sorc feedback thread, I'll leave here my major concern for sorcs:

3º BAR GONE

Pet builds are simply not possible without that third bar.
And I mean the real Summoner feel here, so all summons out.
That's 4 slots out of 10 gone + 2 more to support them - Ward and Prey. Then you need at least 2 more slots to increase your max magika since that's the stat your summons scale off (either Inner Light or Bound Aegis, or a combo of both - 1 on main bar, the other on buff bar).
Basically, you're left with 2 slots, 1 for Wall of Elements (to get Staff passives), the other for Surge.

With the Overload bar i could slot Surge and Boundless Storm there and have a flex spot on my 2 regular bars (usually Liquid Lightning).

It is sad that stuff that is UNIQUE gets removed from the game for the sake of homogenization. I know it might look cleaner but sometimes Less is just Less, not more.

Please consider keeping the 3º bar for Summoners, at least until you find a way to give them more bar space.
Thanks for reading.

Alaztor91

Has there even been a case where ZOS changed a skill from instant cast to 1 sec cast(or more)? I remember a few in which the opposite was done but I can't remember a single time that an instant skill was changed to a casted one, maybe someone can name a few examples?

Eldartar

I have played MagSorc since day 1 and finally, if the 1 sec cast time makes it to the live server, He will be retired until this madness ends.

What I find hard to understand is how this was even suggested never mind put on to the PTS? Did you not 'employ' actual players for feedback and suggestions? I can not believe someone who know's how to play a magsorc would suggest such a thing.

Maybe it is time to follow the herd and roll an ZergNB or opDK .................

MagSorc RIP old friend.

rafaelcsmaia

@ZOS_RobGarrett

Hi Rob, id like to add a few considerations to your post:

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting.

PVP wise, I agree this choice is important for valid combat balance in any game, the cast time however, is not this kind of choice, when you reach out for you shields, its to defend, shrug off pressure so we can go back into offensive while they melt away. By adding cast time, you basically make so the sorc will stay in the defensive form endlessly recasting shield after shield until he runs out of magicka and dies, there will be no more window for offense.

PVE wise, your claim makes complete sense, dps would drop, like you planned. however sorcs, being the ones most affected by the shields are already the worst performing dps of all classes on the pts from the testing. If you wanted to lower the power creep, you should address something else, but the shields are not way to go.

Mind you, the bashing of the shields in pvp is awful, but hardly the core problem of the 1s cast time. I have tried 30k resist magsorc, heavy armor variants, and I can tell you, its a struggle beyond limits to rely on the pet for healing, since most good players realize whats going on and strike the pet for almost insta kill.

As a quick note, this goes completelly against ZOS' philosophy of lowering the ceiling and rising the floor. Newer players will struggle in simple fights like hel ra. this is not healthy for the community.

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

Im sorry if im rude now, but I dont buy this. Ive spoken to many if not all sorc reps and most of them were as astonished as i was about the proposed changes, while most of the pain points we complained about were not even touched. My overall perception of the situation is You guys didnt listen to feedback while making the decision to nerf shields and, if our opinion does not matter, why would we be engaged in testing and giving feedback?

Anyway thanks for speaking up, we need dialogue to sort this out.

RMerlin

"We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting."

This is what the ESO limited hotbar mechanics are for. You have 10 slots + 2 ultimates. Chose them wisely. Do I slot an extra shield, or a heal, or a DPS buff in that 10th and final slot I have left?

On my two characters (my magsorc main and a stamblade alt), I always have to make hard decisions for the last 1-2 slots left. This is where I will switch between various skills based on the situation, or my mood that night.

Horowonnoe

Yeah, even more reason to keep my sorc in retirement. Not even worth logging on to that character, which is sad because it used to be my main for a long time.

kadar

MissBizz wrote: »

Can you please round up a group of devs ready, but new to, vHRC? Be sure to take them through the the topside boss (Yokeda Kai)

Been going top on Stam with nothing other than vigor (and only if I don't trust the healer) for many updates now.

Jaavaa

dimensional wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Having a cast time for shield means my sorc and her summon are both defenceless for the duration of the cast time. Increased efficiency for resistances does not affect pets, so how will I have any chance at all of keeping my pet alive in difficult battles? Please, please don't implement cast time for shields.

Shields need a cast time, learn to work around it like literally every other class has learned to work around their various changes.

Sure. With 10k res your defence need a cast time. Lol. Good Morning...

Sigtric

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

Choices between damage and survivability make combat more interesting? There's little choice when it comes to most of the raiding community. Interesting is getting to live and continue playing the content, rather than missing blocking incoming damage via a shield because you were a fraction of a second late.

This is going to hurt my entire guild full of people trying to learn how to raid and get better at it. Only your best players have the instinct and know when to preempt damage a full second before hand (a lot can happen in a second.) This is going to lead to healers watching more people being one shot than adding any of the previously mentioned making healers more valuable idea when this was all first hinted at.

This is going to hurt higher speed groups doing the latest trial content because of the sheer amount of damage going out nearly constantly towards anyone and everyone in the group.

A shorter duration or as much as it pains me to say this, an increased cost when spamming (streak, dodgeroll) makes more sense to keep any of your perceived abuse at bay and still allow people to shield when they need it, not when they think they need it.

I can think of so many scenarios where the idea of proactively shielding means absolutely zilch. You don't know when a tank will make a mistake and lose aggro. You don't know when they will take a knee and the axes in vAA come for the DPS. There are many of these instances. If you expect people to be perfect at these things and these scenarios to never happen, whats the purpose of shields at all?

Healers will watch people take one shots, and will get one shot themselves when they have to stop healing and try to get annulment up in time when an axe is coming their way.

Think about all the new people coming into the game trying to learn this stuff. Think about the people running sub 500 scores in VMA and the trouble they will have with the cremguards. Stam gets to make up for this with extra mitigation/armor value and an instant huge heal from vigor. Contrast that with some of the magic builds that do not have passive or an instant heal of that size.


I'd prefer to be able to give you a little leeway in this being new but the fact of the matter is I don't believe you have enough experience in this game to understand the repercussions of this change, and the combat team's track record historically shows they don't operate anywhere near reality. Please listen to your customer base.

JadonSky

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Yeah, even more reason to keep my sorc in retirement. Not even worth logging on to that character, which is sad because it used to be my main for a long time.

Yep ever since the patch notes release I moved all my sorcs gear to my magplar and built him for pvp now. Sadly my sorc will just be an extra bank space for gear unless this changes.

Juju_beans

Sigtric wrote: »

Think about all the new people coming into the game trying to learn this stuff. Think about the people running sub 500 scores in VMA and the trouble they will have with the cremguards. Stam gets to make up for this with extra mitigation/armor value and an instant huge heal from vigor. Contrast that with some of the magic builds that do not have passive or an instant heal of that size.


I'd prefer to be able to give you a little leeway in this being new but the fact of the matter is I don't believe you have enough experience in this game to understand the repercussions of this change, and the combat team's track record historically shows they don't operate anywhere near reality. Please listen to your customer base.

You can slot vigor. Vigor isn't instant heal though..it's an HOT so you have to proactively cast it.

ManDraKE

Minalan wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

It's astonishing how everyone's talking past Rob. No wonder they don't take this "feedback" seriously.

He's just reiterating what the community has been saying for years, that defensive and offensive capability shouldn't derive from the same stats, items or abilities. That you should have to make a choice. He made it also clear that shields are just one issue that particularly stood out in this regard, and more changes are likely to come.

FInally! I for one agree 100% with the analysis and direction, albeit the proposed solution of adding a cast time has numerous issues, which have already been raised a few times between all the wailing and tantrums. I'm looking forward to the next PTS patch and the future of ESO in general.

Learn the game mechanics.

Damage and healing (ie survival) are affected by weapon damage. It's no different than Max Magicka (which scale damage and shields).

ZOS was right to ignore an ill informed community up to this point.

Healing can be debuffed, health bars can be crit and damage taken is affected by resistences. While i don't support the addition of cast time to shields, trying to compare shields with healing in the live server is absurd, casting a shield is way more effective than casting a heal. And all the crap they have been adding (extra damage vs shields on CP, shieldbreaker) where bad solutions to the main issue: shields ignore key game mechanics like crit damage and resistences.

The change of allowing crit and resistences/penetration on shields is a step in the right direction. It make require adjustments like shield size or some form of scaling with resistences to avoid punishing light armor and over-buffing heavy armor, but is a step in the right direction. With this properly implemented and a nerf to healing ward scaling at execute range levels of health, the cast time won't be needed at all.

LadyNalcarya

The_Outsider wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Can you please round up a group of devs ready, but new to, vHRC? Be sure to take them through the the topside boss (Yokeda Kai)

Been going top on Stam with nothing other than vigor (and only if I don't trust the healer) for many updates now.

Vigor is a pretty strong heal, though.
And as a stam dd, you can block and dodge much more often than a magicka dd.

Sigtric

Juju_beans wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Think about all the new people coming into the game trying to learn this stuff. Think about the people running sub 500 scores in VMA and the trouble they will have with the cremguards. Stam gets to make up for this with extra mitigation/armor value and an instant huge heal from vigor. Contrast that with some of the magic builds that do not have passive or an instant heal of that size.


I'd prefer to be able to give you a little leeway in this being new but the fact of the matter is I don't believe you have enough experience in this game to understand the repercussions of this change, and the combat team's track record historically shows they don't operate anywhere near reality. Please listen to your customer base.

You can slot vigor. Vigor isn't instant heal though..it's an HOT so you have to proactively cast it.

I have to use my stam for other things as a mag character, and it does come with a good heal right off the top, sure it's got a hot component but that's not really the point, but it does make it all that much better, same as a heavy dot chipping away at a big shield, the HoT heals up the chipping away.

Besides, I didn't say it was or wasn't an instant heal. I just said it was huge.

kadar

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

Thanks for the update, it's nice to hear that the devs are listening and taking the communities feedback seriously. I agree with the idea that maximum damage and solid survivability should not be easy to attain together just like maximum dps and solid healing should not be. I think most players discussing these changes would agree that magblades should not do the most dps and provide insane off-healing simultaneously. It's obvious based on the PTS changes that the devs and players are in agreement here. It's interesting to me that there is such a strong negative feedback against the 1 second cast time when it is clearly made along the same vein as the magblade off healing nerf. It's tricky to navigate because there are 2 camps of dissenters, knee-gerk reactions of outrage from people who crutch on harness magicka and don't know about all the planned changes/don't understand the way the game works very well, and protest from players who do understand these things and are providing constructive feedback/suggestions. GL figuring out which feedback is which lol.

Personally if the cast time change does go live I'm excited about the increased challenge and diversity in class, skill, and strategy it could bring.

• Bastion (red tree) will now be relevant in PVE and be more useful in PVP because of the buffed shield duration.
• Healers become relevant in 4-man content and have increased responsibility in trials.
• Evasion sets may have a place in the end-game healing community as a damage mitigation solution. Magblades can just slot Mirage and have better survivablity than stamblades do now on live.
• Damage shield use in, well any content, will require a measure of planning/forethought/strategy instead of being a brain dead "oh ***" button.
• These changes are an absolute massive buff to tank survivablity, this has a lot of potential implications. Tanks will be free to manage the groups buffs survivablity in a more intentional way in hard content instead of being constantly on the brink of death with the right mouse button taped down
• The dawn of bone shield meta

Chilly-McFreeze

ManDraKE wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

It's astonishing how everyone's talking past Rob. No wonder they don't take this "feedback" seriously.

He's just reiterating what the community has been saying for years, that defensive and offensive capability shouldn't derive from the same stats, items or abilities. That you should have to make a choice. He made it also clear that shields are just one issue that particularly stood out in this regard, and more changes are likely to come.

FInally! I for one agree 100% with the analysis and direction, albeit the proposed solution of adding a cast time has numerous issues, which have already been raised a few times between all the wailing and tantrums. I'm looking forward to the next PTS patch and the future of ESO in general.

Learn the game mechanics.

Damage and healing (ie survival) are affected by weapon damage. It's no different than Max Magicka (which scale damage and shields).

ZOS was right to ignore an ill informed community up to this point.

Healing can be debuffed, health bars can be crit and damage taken is affected by resistences. While i don't support the addition of cast time to shields, trying to compare shields with healing in the live server is absurd, casting a shield is way more effective than casting a heal. And all the crap they have been adding (extra damage vs shields on CP, shieldbreaker) where bad solutions to the main issue: shields ignore key game mechanics like crit damage and resistences.

The change of allowing crit and resistences/penetration on shields is a step in the right direction. It make require adjustments like shield size or some form of scaling with resistences to avoid punishing light armor and over-buffing heavy armor, but is a step in the right direction. With this properly implemented and a nerf to healing ward scaling at execute range levels of health, the cast time won't be needed at all.

Shields are bad because they ignore key mechanics. Continues with suggestions that don't follow key mechanics as well.

GreatGildersleeve

I’m going to stir the pot a bit. I thought the choice was between damage output and sustain? Wasn’t that the motivation for the great sustain nerfs of 2017? (Or was it 2016?) Now it’s a choice between damage output and survivability? Which is it? Or is it both?

If you’ve got a problem with power creep stop adding CP every patch and be obvious about it... nerf actual damage into the ground and stop messing with everything EXCEPT damage.

bardx86

Faulgor wrote: »

It's astonishing how everyone's talking past Rob. No wonder they don't take this "feedback" seriously.

He's just reiterating what the community has been saying for years, that defensive and offensive capability shouldn't derive from the same stats, items or abilities. That you should have to make a choice. He made it also clear that shields are just one issue that particularly stood out in this regard, and more changes are likely to come.

FInally! I for one agree 100% with the analysis and direction, albeit the proposed solution of adding a cast time has numerous issues, which have already been raised a few times between all the wailing and tantrums. I'm looking forward to the next PTS patch and the future of ESO in general.

How is adding a cast time changing any of what you just mentioned?

ruikkarikun

I found this video have good critic for from "Player Guides"
https://youtube.com/watch?time_continue=27&v=Zneoz8XLcbo