[MATH] PvP Defensive Set Comparison (Impreg, Brass, Pariah, Riposte, + more)

IZZEFlameLash

Goodness, Combat Physician thing again? Lay it to its rest.

TheDoomsdayMonster

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

My Combat Physician Damage Shield is about to become 44% stronger against Spell Damage and 35% stronger against Physical...

Looks like somebody didn't read all of the patch notes.

Looks like you spoke without thinking...

At the time I wrote that, Shield Strength scaled off of your resists; Max Health wasnt a factor...

As a result, I was 100% correct in what I wrote...

Heck, what I wrote still may be correct as we don't know if CP will scale off of Max Health or will it provide a flat value that will scale off of your resists as my above post indicates...

TheDoomsdayMonster

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Goodness, Combat Physician thing again? Lay it to its rest.

Why?

Things in this game change over time...

At current, CP may be much stronger than before...

paulsimonps

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Goodness, Combat Physician thing again? Lay it to its rest.

Why?

Things in this game change over time...

At current, CP may be much stronger than before...

Still pretty bad though.

TheDoomsdayMonster

paulsimonps wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Goodness, Combat Physician thing again? Lay it to its rest.

Why?

Things in this game change over time...

At current, CP may be much stronger than before...

Still pretty bad though.

Nope...

As I extensively detailed previously, it was in some ways, better than the sets you guys feel are better than it...

Now with the current changes, the set becomes very strong as long as you have high resists...

Combat Physician for life!!!!

WaltherCarraway

info in the OP helped me a lot.

HankTwo

Koensol wrote: »

Kind of sad that even after the OP asked multiple times to not post about that set in here, you still do so over and over again. Masking it as a joke makes it even more pathetic. It just shows you have zero respect and that you find your neurotic desire to prove yourself to others more important. Give it a rest man.

@TheDoomsdayMonster

TheDoomsdayMonster

HankTwo wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Kind of sad that even after the OP asked multiple times to not post about that set in here, you still do so over and over again. Masking it as a joke makes it even more pathetic. It just shows you have zero respect and that you find your neurotic desire to prove yourself to others more important. Give it a rest man.

@TheDoomsdayMonster

Once again, things change...

The set works differently now...

Its possible to make the Damage Shield 50% stronger than before without investing a single point into Bastion...


New day...new game.

Play ball!!!!

Xsorus

lol...at combat physician..I use to run a Stam Dk build back in the day with undaunted bastion when you could get it as a medium set and before the stat increase (basically we all had 2k health instead of 25k health)

Undaunted Bastion basically gave me a damage shield whenever i hit 60% life and used Puncture.

TheDoomsdayMonster

Xsorus wrote: »

lol...at combat physician..I use to run a Stam Dk build back in the day with undaunted bastion when you could get it as a medium set and before the stat increase (basically we all had 2k health instead of 25k health)

Undaunted Bastion basically gave me a damage shield whenever i hit 60% life and used Puncture.

Lets do some quick math...

Lets assume one has max resists (And has not invested a single point into Bastion); under these conditions the Combat Physician Damage Shield will negate 6146 damage all at once every 6 seconds...

If one was wearing Wizards Riposte (due to diminishing returns) one would have to withstand over 61,000 points of damage in a 6 second spam simply to equal the amount of damage Combat Physician will negate in an equal time span...

Unless you are a bonafide tank (or are receiving a lot of healing) who can withstand 61000+ damage in a 6 second span?

Certainly not these hordes of player characters sporting 20k-25k Health...


LoL @ Combat Physician indeed...

Brutusmax1mus

Stop feeding him

TheDoomsdayMonster

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Stop feeding him

No need to feed me...

I feed myself...

HankTwo

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Kind of sad that even after the OP asked multiple times to not post about that set in here, you still do so over and over again. Masking it as a joke makes it even more pathetic. It just shows you have zero respect and that you find your neurotic desire to prove yourself to others more important. Give it a rest man.

@TheDoomsdayMonster

Once again, things change...

The set works differently now...

Its possible to make the Damage Shield 50% stronger than before without investing a single point into Bastion...


New day...new game.

Play ball!!!!

News flash: this isn't even about how viable the set is, its about your behavior in this thread.

Volckodav

Hi, big thanks for OP and all the maths, effort done in this post, really appreciated!

I wonder why reactive armor is not here as I feel that this is a really good set in pvp? maybe I do something wrong with using it?
So is -35% of damage is better worst than mitigation given by FB, impregnable?

From my experience, this works really good as a defensive set, almost always up in combat.

ChefZero

Volckodav wrote: »

Hi, big thanks for OP and all the maths, effort done in this post, really appreciated!

I wonder why reactive armor is not here as I feel that this is a really good set in pvp? maybe I do something wrong with using it?
So is -35% of damage is better worst than mitigation given by FB, impregnable?

From my experience, this works really good as a defensive set, almost always up in combat.

This game is (besides bleed builds) all about burst. Better player will only die to good CC-burst-combos so IMO RA is the best defensive set. Penetration? Doesn't matter. Low HP scaling? Nope.

Imagine a magTemplar with reactive + transmutation, access to the new major evasion and the new arena restro. How do you want to kill him?

Brutusmax1mus

ChefZero wrote: »

Volckodav wrote: »

Hi, big thanks for OP and all the maths, effort done in this post, really appreciated!

I wonder why reactive armor is not here as I feel that this is a really good set in pvp? maybe I do something wrong with using it?
So is -35% of damage is better worst than mitigation given by FB, impregnable?

From my experience, this works really good as a defensive set, almost always up in combat.

This game is (besides bleed builds) all about burst. Better player will only die to good CC-burst-combos so IMO RA is the best defensive set. Penetration? Doesn't matter. Low HP scaling? Nope.

Imagine a magTemplar with reactive + transmutation, access to the new major evasion and the new arena restro. How do you want to kill him?

Enemy Penetration most certainly impacts the damage you take in reactive.

Playing against reactive is just recognizing they have reactive on and changing the timing on your stun. Instead of stunning at 70%, go down to 40-50%. The healing is very weak on a build like reactive trans. There's so much you still have to obtain to be viable (health, max stam, recovery, spell damage, max mag, mag recovery) when you run reactive. It's good for staying alive for a while tho. If you think players can't kill someone in reactive trans without stunning them you're mistaken.

mateosalvaje

I've been running Pariah in PVP since it came out, saved my @$$ SO many times

Brutusmax1mus

mateosalvaje wrote: »

I've been running Pariah in PVP since it came out, saved my @$$ SO many times

I feel like for every time it saved me, it has equally prevented me from getting the damage to finish someone off and they survive lol

Ledhead10

@Taylor_MB Since the nerf to WR, would it still be the most viable backbar set in a BG environment, or would you want to keep it on the body due to its shortened duration? Also, although Impreg is getting a substantial nerf, given the upcoming changes to the way shields perform, will this make still make Impreg a more viable BG set on mag characters?

I've recently been running a Magbalde with low resistances and 2 damage sets and have finally convinced myself that I need to invest more in my defenses. I'm just curious how this thread will translate with the incoming patch now that shields are affected by crit and penetration.

Any thoughts?

Btw, I strictly play nCP.

ChefZero

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

ChefZero wrote: »

Volckodav wrote: »

Hi, big thanks for OP and all the maths, effort done in this post, really appreciated!

I wonder why reactive armor is not here as I feel that this is a really good set in pvp? maybe I do something wrong with using it?
So is -35% of damage is better worst than mitigation given by FB, impregnable?

From my experience, this works really good as a defensive set, almost always up in combat.

This game is (besides bleed builds) all about burst. Better player will only die to good CC-burst-combos so IMO RA is the best defensive set. Penetration? Doesn't matter. Low HP scaling? Nope.

Imagine a magTemplar with reactive + transmutation, access to the new major evasion and the new arena restro. How do you want to kill him?

Enemy Penetration most certainly impacts the damage you take in reactive.

Playing against reactive is just recognizing they have reactive on and changing the timing on your stun. Instead of stunning at 70%, go down to 40-50%. The healing is very weak on a build like reactive trans. There's so much you still have to obtain to be viable (health, max stam, recovery, spell damage, max mag, mag recovery) when you run reactive. It's good for staying alive for a while tho. If you think players can't kill someone in reactive trans without stunning them you're mistaken.

Now we have reached the point where numbers and playstyles differ. I haven't mentioned monster sets, armor weight or possibility of being vampire and therefore I can only deny your statement.

Solariken

I was hoping to test new Impregnable value but not able to edit that field. Hoping Tay is still around to update it

JAwtunes

Solariken wrote: »

I was hoping to test new Impregnable value but not able to edit that field. Hoping Tay is still around to update it

If you select File and then 'Make a copy' you should be able to save your own version that will not contain the same write protection. You should then be able to alter the set parameters.

Volckodav

Thanks for your feedback!

BlackMadara

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

mateosalvaje wrote: »

I've been running Pariah in PVP since it came out, saved my @$$ SO many times

I feel like for every time it saved me, it has equally prevented me from getting the damage to finish someone off and they survive lol

Depends on what you run with it. I have created my own spread sheet factoring in estimated enemy cp values and my own tooltips. With a damage set and pariah, my burst combo without ult on a meta heavy armor stam dd bulld still does roughly 18k in 3 seconds. So, in theory, as long as I play correctly, I can kill anything that comes into my face, and this isnt counting Valkyn Skoria proc. I find that the opportunity cost for 2 damage sets is too high and not worth the value for actual combat, unless grouped up or just having fun.

kaithuzar

So what’s the best counter set to bleeds; does it exist?
What’s the best counter set for dawnbreaker?
I dropped vamp but it still can hit decently with 2-3 guys that have fury proc’d for an extra 700 dmg each...

Also I can’t remember if I’ve asked this but what’s the ratio or point of diminishing returns for resistance vs crit resistance or is there one?

ChefZero

kaithuzar wrote: »

What’s the best counter set for dawnbreaker?

Reactive + heartland + Bloodspawn + new evasion + temporal guard

Minno

Bump for the conversations that might take place for Murkmire!

Current thinking/ideas coming in:
- 3x protective seeing increased use, especially under magplars
- additional sets granting major protection sources
- speed nerfs hurt trying to stack speed to negate ironblood snare.
- impreg nerf isnt added in the spreadsheet, but everyone can reduce the number themselves if they save a copy of the spreadsheet
- major evasion now gives 25% against AOEs instead of raw dodge chance.

Taylor_MB

Hey ya'll! Apologies for my inattention but was on holidays for a few weeks.

Impregnable
@Solariken
Has now been updated to 2000


Wizard's Riposte
@Ledhead10
Since Wolfhunter this set is a front bar only set in solo or small group. Can no longer be effectively back barred and cannot be used in a medium to large group (unless on a tank).


Pariah
@mateosalvaje
@Brutusmax1mus
I run Pariah on back bar with Master's Destro front bar on a ranged Magplar, reasoning is-
• Don't lose front bar damage.
• Don't need Pariah active on offensive bar because you'll always be at a reasonably high percentage HP.
• Templar has definitive defense and offensive stages, rather than try and change that, using Pariah embraces that. When you go defensive, you really go defensive, and when you go offensive you aren't being held back by trading offensive stats for defensive stats.
*have not done a gameplay or build video for this setup yet, but it's my next project, found it to be super effective!


Reactive
@Volckodav
Reactive is there, just make sure you change "Graph (y/n)?" to "Y" and set the uptime in the green box above.


Combat Physician
@TheDoomsdayMonster
With the changes to shields, it's actually wayyyy easier to determine and compare their effectiveness, as they are now basically a 6 second HP boost. I still vehemently disagree with you that Combat Physician can be worn in group settings, it has no scaling with numbers like Transmutation or Wizard's Riposte does. Solo though... give me a few weeks to catch up on all the work I've missed and I'll add it into the spreadsheet. In the meantime, has anyone figured out the exact formula for shield size yet?


Major Evasion
@Minno
As Minno pointed out, not yet updated. There is a reason I have not included any of the "reduce damage from AOE" sets - cause it's a pain in the ass to add XD. Give me some time and I'll get it included, but no promises on the time frame. Thanks to whoever went and set all the uptimes for Major Evasion to 0%, you the real MVP.


Counter to Bleeds
@kaithuzar
1) Be a MagPlar
2) Run in group with purge bot
3) Burst them before their bleeds start hurting


Resistances vs Critical Resistance
@kaithuzar
To give you a 100% precise answer I'd need to download SciLab and do some intense 3D graphing and *** I don't have time for (sorry). There are just so many variables. Brief answer, individually there is no point of diminishing returns (as long as you are under cap), but all forms of mitigation are diminished by each other.


Hope that answers all questions, I'll post my homework when it's done.
- Tay

Jimmy_The_Fixer

Can anyone shed any light on whether the shield change (excluding the HP cap) was a buff or a nerf in most common scenarios?

Lots of people have given feedback on how it "feels" but I haven't seen anything mathematical about how gaining resistances stacks up against being crittable.

It's a little outside of the scope of the original post, but the work here is already so impressive that this seemed like the best place to pose the question.

Beardimus

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

Can anyone shed any light on whether the shield change (excluding the HP cap) was a buff or a nerf in most common scenarios?

Lots of people have given feedback on how it "feels" but I haven't seen anything mathematical about how gaining resistances stacks up against being crittable.

It's a little outside of the scope of the original post, but the work here is already so impressive that this seemed like the best place to pose the question.

Depends a bit on the context of your question. If its purely on wards then yes i guess the maths could help. If its overall survival that's a different answer.

Clearly Sorcs who adjusted are WAY tougher now. I know i am, i was yolo before, no resists, No Crit resists ward down and pop i was dead. But now i have those and health I'm harder to kill overall.

Is that a buff? No, not overall as I've lost sustain or damage to get there.

I'm thinking tho its more a maths question on ward strength directly?