[MATH] PvP Defensive Set Comparison (Impreg, Brass, Pariah, Riposte, + more)

Berenhir

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

The problem with impregnable is that it's a much weaker opportunity cost than impens. Lets compare impen to divines, which with the warrior mundus will add about 120 weapon damage. That's with 7 divines, and in most builds, that would be roughly 2.5% more damage done. In other words, each divine adds around 0.35%. Each impen adds:

258/660 = ~3.9% crit mitigation

Which is equal to 2.6% total mitigation whenever your attacker crits.


Let's call that an average of 1.25% mitigation per piece, meaning 7 of them is around 8.75% average mitigation and 18.2% mitigation against critical bursts.

So opting for offense in PVP, you are gaining only 2.5% damage, an amount easily gained by utilizing a damage set or even a damage + sustain set, and you are getting that 2.5% damage increase at a cost of nearly 9% average mitigation (5800 physical and spell resistance would be the equivalent) with the potential to reduce burst damage by more than twice that amount.

So there is really no viable argument for using impregnable without full impen. It's not a rational choice to use impregnable in lieu of using impen, as impen is just way more powerful in pvp than all other options. The only purpose for using impregnable would be to get to 4300 crit resistance (~65% crit mitigation) without investing CP in into the Resistant star. All crit resistance beyond 3300 has sharply diminishing returns, though, so you're really only getting the full value of the first 1500 crit resistance you receive from using impregnable.


The next 660 crit resistance will only be slightly weaker than the first 1500, as it will still always help against NBs and Templars (unless you have a healer running transmutation), but the last 340 will be much less useful most of the time. In short, impregnable isn't really a viable set compared to other sources of mitigation. It's insane to not use impenetrable mathematically, and 4300 crit resistance is overkill and will cost you too much in terms of potential DPS loss.

The only exception that even kind of makes sense would be so that you could wear 4 pieces of sturdy armor to lower block cost. In other words, impregnable isn't strictly speaking a mitigation set, it's a block cost reduction set that nets you 16% reduced cost and allows you to forgo using your red CP towards crit resistance.

Impregnable gives you basically immunity to crit + 28% block cost reduction when going for red CP. You could also build for immunity to crit + 35% dodge and sprint reduction in heavy.

All impen in gold is 1807 crit resist. There is no other set which has a 5pc bonus that gives 1.4x the bonus of 7 armour traits.

Divines is so weak as damage trait that noone would use that ever in an environment where you have to balance damage against utility.

Oh I know, but the numbers work the same for all options besides block cost really. Infused is on par with divines, reinforced is never even half as strong as impen, nirnhoned as it exists would need to be almost tripled to be even viable on a sash, training is not for endgame buids, well-fitted is really not useful except to certain mag builds with very low stamina, invigorating is garbage in PVP. The only trait that ever can compare at all to impen in terms of value for any build is sturdy.

I agree that impregnable has a purpose, I just don't view it as competitive in terms of mitigation because of the situations in which it actually is useful aren't what many people tend to use it for.

I have a friend that was convinced into using it as a medium armor mitigation set, and it just doesn't function effectively in that capacity. I tried to talk him into Pariah or Blessed Meridia jewelry and weapons instead, but you know how it goes.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Impregnable is a weird set because it cannot be fitted on every build and only really shines when using sturdy. However, combined with a set like pirate skeleton you get it all: crit immunity, block cost reduction (aka. stamina management), overall damage mitigation, no counterplay and being armour weight independent. You can run it with a sustain set or damage set on any spec with sword and board.

It's great overall but of course in small-scale situations where you can los with your own group members, get pressure taken from you by others intervening, have purge synergy available and share vigor/ritual/healing wards, you don't really need that much mitigation from block and rather opt for bloodspawns ult regeneration in tandem with a resistance set. After all, noCP has 20% less crit damage modifiers and 10% less crit chance, less healing done and received, absurdly high block costs even with 7 sturdy and less penetration to begin with which naturally is weighted against the combo I proposed and favours resistance sets more than anything else.

Taylor_MB

@Amdar_Godkiller
I have not, but now you've mentioned it I really want to. I won't get the time to add it into the spreadsheet properly anytime soon, but just some back of the envelope calculations...

Instantly procs
Base of 50% damage mitigation

1v1
50% for 100% (1 of 1 people) of incoming damage = 50% mitigation - equivalent of max armour vs no penetration
Total = 75%

1v2
50% for 50% (1 of 2 people) of incoming damage = 25% mitigation - slightly worse then Major Protection
Total = 62.5%

1v3
50% for 33% (1 of 3 people) of incoming damage = 16.67% mitigation - slightly better then Wizard's Riposte
Total = 58.33%

1v4
50% for 25% (1 of 4 people) of incoming damage = 12.5% mitigation - slightly worse then Wizard's Riposte
Total = 56.25%

Summary
Pros
• 1v3 or less it's absolutely superb.
• The utility of combining it with say... Tava's Favor and heavy armour on a DK is also super exciting. Stop giving me ideas, haha.
Cons
• 100% selfish set, no group utility
• 1v4 or higher it blows as it has no form of scaling.

teladoy

Taylor_MB wrote: »

@teladoy
I recently experimented with using Ice Staff to apply Minor Maim on my PvP tank instead of Wizard's Riposte and I'm very sorry to report it is a huge disappointment. Asides from WR the best way to get high Maim up time is using an Asylum Staff or being a NB and spamming Fear.

Let me expand a little on the percentages others have mentioned above and why it sucks for status effect up time.
20% form weapon enchant is increased to 84% with both Destruction Staff and Charged trait. The up time this provides can also be boosted by running Torug's Pact. This provides (without TP) ~40-50% uptime (based on casual testing) for single target, so alright for 1v1 but absolutely pales in comparison to WR for 1vX or group play.

Elemental Blockade is an AoE DoT, so with full bonuses has a 4.2% chance to proc every tick. With 2 people standing in your AoE for all 9 ticks (pretty sure it's 9, might be 8) you get a 75.6% chance to proc once. So not too flash.

Outside of a 1v1 the only way to get Minor Maim up time anywhere near to what you get with WR is to be a Warden, layering multiple AoE's on top of each other whilst using a Charged Frost staff (for extra AoE). I have not ranked up a MagWarden yet, so I can't give you specific results, but it is definitely possible and effective. Unfortunately this is the only way to get decent Maim up time with out WR.

---

@Minno
Just to clarify your last paragraph, minor vulnerability procs every time concussed procs, which is why blockade back bar (combined with shock enchant) MagDK's are so strong. Infused + Berserker are stronger in all other builds though.

---

@Amdar_Godkiller
Great analysis! That is one of the limitations of my spreadsheet, it is purely comparing defensive sets, it's up to extra analysis like yours to figure out if it's worth the trade off for someones specific build. As you mentioned at the end, Impreg's best advantage comes from opening up other trait options, specifically Sturdy, and other CP options.

Even if I'm a frost tank warden? I think warden have a lot more chances... or I'm missing something?

Taylor_MB

@teladoy

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Outside of a 1v1 the only way to get Minor Maim up time anywhere near to what you get with WR is to be a Warden, layering multiple AoE's on top of each other whilst using a Charged Frost staff (for extra AoE). I have not ranked up a MagWarden yet, so I can't give you specific results, but it is definitely possible and effective. Unfortunately this is the only way to get decent Maim up time with out WR.

So yes, frost tank warden is the only scenario where you can drop Wizard's Riposte and still get very high Minor Maim up time. It will take a lot of micromanaging though. Melee opponents are easy enough to tag with layered AoE, but for ranged opponents your only option is using Asylum frost staff and/or using a Frost enchant with a ranged attack every so often. Even with this method you'd still only be able to consistently tag one ranged opponent.

kaithuzar

So I wanted to throw out there that all the magicka players I know try to run with at least 10-12k spell pen, if they are running less they are super bad with the exception of those getting spell pen from other sources.
The ones doing both are easily getting 14-15k pen

Maulkin

kaithuzar wrote: »

So I wanted to throw out there that all the magicka players I know try to run with at least 10-12k spell pen, if they are running less they are super bad with the exception of those getting spell pen from other sources.
The ones doing both are easily getting 14-15k pen

Tragic statement by all accounts.

Considering that +10k pentration is only achievable if you're running light armour and either Spinners or Ele Drain; Are you suggesting that every Magicka build that is not playing that particular set-up is super bad, including all the heavy armour mag builds? And what about no-CP where you lose Spell Erosion?

That kinda leads me to assume that you're probably you're the super bad here.

kaithuzar

Maulkin wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

So I wanted to throw out there that all the magicka players I know try to run with at least 10-12k spell pen, if they are running less they are super bad with the exception of those getting spell pen from other sources.
The ones doing both are easily getting 14-15k pen

Tragic statement by all accounts.

Considering that +10k pentration is only achievable if you're running light armour and either Spinners or Ele Drain; Are you suggesting that every Magicka build that is not playing that particular set-up is super bad, including all the heavy armour mag builds? And what about no-CP where you lose Spell Erosion?

That kinda leads me to assume that you're probably you're the super bad here.

Sorry for not specifying I was talking CP only.
And heavy armor builds can & should encompass spinner.
Don't forget that sharpened trait & lover mundus are both highly viable

Also mark target adds to your pen if nb

I forgot to mention I'm the worst player in eso & joined 2 months before you did =p

Minno

kaithuzar wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

So I wanted to throw out there that all the magicka players I know try to run with at least 10-12k spell pen, if they are running less they are super bad with the exception of those getting spell pen from other sources.
The ones doing both are easily getting 14-15k pen

Tragic statement by all accounts.

Considering that +10k pentration is only achievable if you're running light armour and either Spinners or Ele Drain; Are you suggesting that every Magicka build that is not playing that particular set-up is super bad, including all the heavy armour mag builds? And what about no-CP where you lose Spell Erosion?

That kinda leads me to assume that you're probably you're the super bad here.

Sorry for not specifying I was talking CP only.
And heavy armor builds can & should encompass spinner.
Don't forget that sharpened trait & lover mundus are both highly viable

Also mark target adds to your pen if nb

I forgot to mention I'm the worst player in eso & joined 2 months before you did =p

Light armor + ele drain is probably the best source for both penetration+sustain.

Puts you just under 10k pen. Then you can add a few points into spell erosion, then look for stats you need for your build.

That's why light armor brawler builds are clutch and arguably been meta since Morrowind.

teladoy

Sorry but that Pariah set at 68% HP outperforms all other sets is wrong.

Fortified Brass gives 5170 armor spell resistance and that are the 43% of Pariahs, that means that when you are at the 57% health you have the same values with Pariahs as with Fortified, not at the 68%.

The mathematics here are simple, Fortified is an uniform set, while Pariah is stronger as you lose hp.

We can conclude that all the damage you mitigate with Pariah from 56% to 0 would be more or less the same amount that you would mitigate in complete with Fortified from 100% health to 0.

In other words Pariah is a tricky set which objective is to cheat enemies when they try to execute you.

Berenhir

teladoy wrote: »

Sorry but that Pariah set at 68% HP outperforms all other sets is wrong.

Fortified Brass gives 5170 armor spell resistance and that are the 43% of Pariahs, that means that when you are at the 57% health you have the same values with Pariahs as with Fortified, not at the 68%.

The mathematics here are simple, Fortified is an uniform set, while Pariah is stronger as you lose hp.

We can conclude that all the damage you mitigate with Pariah from 56% to 0 would be more or less the same amount that you would mitigate in complete with Fortified from 100% health to 0.

In other words Pariah is a tricky set which objective is to cheat enemies when they try to execute you.

I assume you did not test Pariah but do some math based on assumptions you have about what the tooltip implies. You are wrong because Pariah already gives some 2.xk mitigation at 100% from its five piece like I already told you.

Minno

Berenhir wrote: »

teladoy wrote: »

Sorry but that Pariah set at 68% HP outperforms all other sets is wrong.

Fortified Brass gives 5170 armor spell resistance and that are the 43% of Pariahs, that means that when you are at the 57% health you have the same values with Pariahs as with Fortified, not at the 68%.

The mathematics here are simple, Fortified is an uniform set, while Pariah is stronger as you lose hp.

We can conclude that all the damage you mitigate with Pariah from 56% to 0 would be more or less the same amount that you would mitigate in complete with Fortified from 100% health to 0.

In other words Pariah is a tricky set which objective is to cheat enemies when they try to execute you.

I assume you did not test Pariah but do some math based on assumptions you have about what the tooltip implies. You are wrong because Pariah already gives some 2.xk mitigation at 100% from its five piece like I already told you.

Agreed, pariah was confirmed to give slight resists at 100% health. What is it, 2k? If so that's like 1pc pirate or chudan but giving you the option to get fort brass resists at a certain level of health and still slot a DMG focused set for your monster pieces.

@Taylor_MB can you add ironblood?

teladoy

Berenhir wrote: »

teladoy wrote: »

Sorry but that Pariah set at 68% HP outperforms all other sets is wrong.

Fortified Brass gives 5170 armor spell resistance and that are the 43% of Pariahs, that means that when you are at the 57% health you have the same values with Pariahs as with Fortified, not at the 68%.

The mathematics here are simple, Fortified is an uniform set, while Pariah is stronger as you lose hp.

We can conclude that all the damage you mitigate with Pariah from 56% to 0 would be more or less the same amount that you would mitigate in complete with Fortified from 100% health to 0.

In other words Pariah is a tricky set which objective is to cheat enemies when they try to execute you.

I assume you did not test Pariah but do some math based on assumptions you have about what the tooltip implies. You are wrong because Pariah already gives some 2.xk mitigation at 100% from its five piece like I already told you.

I didn't test it, but reading the description I understand that the 5th piece bonus gives me 0 mitigation at 100% health.

Are you sure what you are saying and not confusing these 2.xx with the second and third bonuses?

Berenhir

teladoy wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

teladoy wrote: »

Sorry but that Pariah set at 68% HP outperforms all other sets is wrong.

Fortified Brass gives 5170 armor spell resistance and that are the 43% of Pariahs, that means that when you are at the 57% health you have the same values with Pariahs as with Fortified, not at the 68%.

The mathematics here are simple, Fortified is an uniform set, while Pariah is stronger as you lose hp.

We can conclude that all the damage you mitigate with Pariah from 56% to 0 would be more or less the same amount that you would mitigate in complete with Fortified from 100% health to 0.

In other words Pariah is a tricky set which objective is to cheat enemies when they try to execute you.

I assume you did not test Pariah but do some math based on assumptions you have about what the tooltip implies. You are wrong because Pariah already gives some 2.xk mitigation at 100% from its five piece like I already told you.

I didn't test it, but reading the description I understand that the 5th piece bonus gives me 0 mitigation at 100% health.

Are you sure what you are saying and not confusing these 2.xx with the second and third bonuses?

It gives about 2.5k resistances as 5pc bonus at 100% health.

Taylor_MB

@teladoy
Rule #536 of ESO: Don't trust the tooltip!


So wearing 5pc purple, Pariah gives you 2490 resistances at 100% HP.

---

@Minno
Ironblood now added

This set is a weird one, it's basically a Pirate Skeleton except 1k HP, less Major Protection uptime, massive snare, but no defile. Maybe if it's uptime was a little higher (66% is pretty trash) it could be worthwhile, but that snare would mean death by Negate every time.

Berenhir

Never tested Iron blood but when its snare can be purged or even not be applied due to immunity, it sounds a lot better. Still trash compared to pirate skeleton though where you only have to spend 2 slots for basically the same effect as its debuff can also be purged.
But maybe on stambuilds with forward momentum and blood spawn...

Minno

Berenhir wrote: »

Never tested Iron blood but when its snare can be purged or even not be applied due to immunity, it sounds a lot better. Still trash compared to pirate skeleton though where you only have to spend 2 slots for basically the same effect as its debuff can also be purged.
But maybe on stambuilds with forward momentum and blood spawn...

I am working on something to negate the snare.

Minno

Taylor_MB wrote: »

@teladoy
Rule #536 of ESO: Don't trust the tooltip!


So wearing 5pc purple, Pariah gives you 2490 resistances at 100% HP.

---

@Minno
Ironblood now added

This set is a weird one, it's basically a Pirate Skeleton except 1k HP, less Major Protection uptime, massive snare, but no defile. Maybe if it's uptime was a little higher (66% is pretty trash) it could be worthwhile, but that snare would mean death by Negate every time.

Gap closers ignore the snare :P

Minno

Berenhir wrote: »

Never tested Iron blood but when its snare can be purged or even not be applied due to immunity, it sounds a lot better. Still trash compared to pirate skeleton though where you only have to spend 2 slots for basically the same effect as its debuff can also be purged.
But maybe on stambuilds with forward momentum and blood spawn...

you can't purge the defiles/snares. but there are mechanics that ignore these or make them less impactful.

For instance, pirate skeletion is really strong for magplars, mending passives gives around 10% easy extra healing and our minor mending passive adds another 8%. combined with CP quick recovery, you can get another easy 7-8%, leaving you at a total of 25% extra healing. minor defile is only 15% so you are still doing 15% extra healing (if you need it, but you usually use it to justify staying on the attack or running to make for better defense similar to how players heal outside of mist for obvious reason)

ironblood also cant be purged, and it cant be removed from immunity (i tested it). But it also procs off shields, whereas pirate skeleton cannot. and while you get 1pc health, its basically identical to pirate skeleton, except lets you slot an offensive monster set (if you require it).

Berenhir

Minno wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Never tested Iron blood but when its snare can be purged or even not be applied due to immunity, it sounds a lot better. Still trash compared to pirate skeleton though where you only have to spend 2 slots for basically the same effect as its debuff can also be purged.
But maybe on stambuilds with forward momentum and blood spawn...

you can't purge the defiles/snares. but there are mechanics that ignore these or make them less impactful.

For instance, pirate skeletion is really strong for magplars, mending passives gives around 10% easy extra healing and our minor mending passive adds another 8%. combined with CP quick recovery, you can get another easy 7-8%, leaving you at a total of 25% extra healing. minor defile is only 15% so you are still doing 15% extra healing (if you need it, but you usually use it to justify staying on the attack or running to make for better defense similar to how players heal outside of mist for obvious reason)

ironblood also cant be purged, and it cant be removed from immunity (i tested it). But it also procs off shields, whereas pirate skeleton cannot. and while you get 1pc health, its basically identical to pirate skeleton, except lets you slot an offensive monster set (if you require it).

Well, you lose a set bonus though compared to PS. And afaik last patch PS could be purged again as their fix to it being purgeable got lost somewhere around morrowind. Didn't test it though and won't be able to this weekend

Minno

Berenhir wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Never tested Iron blood but when its snare can be purged or even not be applied due to immunity, it sounds a lot better. Still trash compared to pirate skeleton though where you only have to spend 2 slots for basically the same effect as its debuff can also be purged.
But maybe on stambuilds with forward momentum and blood spawn...

you can't purge the defiles/snares. but there are mechanics that ignore these or make them less impactful.

For instance, pirate skeletion is really strong for magplars, mending passives gives around 10% easy extra healing and our minor mending passive adds another 8%. combined with CP quick recovery, you can get another easy 7-8%, leaving you at a total of 25% extra healing. minor defile is only 15% so you are still doing 15% extra healing (if you need it, but you usually use it to justify staying on the attack or running to make for better defense similar to how players heal outside of mist for obvious reason)

ironblood also cant be purged, and it cant be removed from immunity (i tested it). But it also procs off shields, whereas pirate skeleton cannot. and while you get 1pc health, its basically identical to pirate skeleton, except lets you slot an offensive monster set (if you require it).

Well, you lose a set bonus though compared to PS. And afaik last patch PS could be purged again as their fix to it being purgeable got lost somewhere around morrowind. Didn't test it though and won't be able to this weekend

lol honestly should have been reverse (5pc set and cooldown is the tradeoff whereas PS has the benefit of being only 2pc and better uptime.) The benefit of ironblood is its counter-synergy with Medium armor (extra speed counters snares) and cheaper dodge rolls lets you move without mobility issues. The 50% snare also takes effect over any other snare below that value so unless someone is using a 60 or 70 snare, you are probably going to nulify the set's designed setback.

And yes you still cant purge the snare off ironblood (was playing this morning).

Edit:
Also Tay's opinion of PS was that with minor defile drops the set to 15% dmg mitigation instead of the value it shows on the calculator.

Taylor_MB

Minno wrote: »

Edit:
Also Tay's opinion of PS was that with minor defile drops the set to 15% dmg mitigation instead of the value it shows on the calculator.

I didn't include that in the calculations though, just an easy mostly accurate way to think about it I think.

It's not 100% accurate though - cause on something like a MagBlade tank with a million HoT's and already high mitigation, the 15% defile would probably hurt you more then the 30% Major Protection would give you. That 30% mitigation is obviously already diminished by your other sources of mitigation, so unlikely to counter that brutal 15% heal reduction.

Pirate Skeleton shines on a Light Armour build with very little other sources of mitigation. PS is best when you can take advantage of as much of that 30% as possible.

darkarofginnunga

What about Vampire Cloak Set ?

Bam_Bam

This thread is superb and it really should be pinned. So much great info for players of every skill level.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_MikaS - please pin this thread!

Taylor_MB

@darkarofginnunga
I will add it in this weekend .

In the mean time though, it is the equivalent of Ironblood or Pirate Skeleton being set to 26.666%. So you can see how Vampire's Cloak compares by hijacking either of those two sets.

darkarofginnunga

Taylor_MB wrote: »

@darkarofginnunga
I will add it in this weekend .

In the mean time though, it is the equivalent of Ironblood or Pirate Skeleton being set to 26.666%. So you can see how Vampire's Cloak compares by hijacking either of those two sets.

Thanks
I'm actually trying all those sets out and just thought it should be mentionned too

Last setup was Vampire Cloak + Wizard Riposte on solo magicka NB ; was nice but tbh i later traded cloak for the healing version because of Sload cancer and so i totally changed my gameplay and gear again !

sluice

How does riposte fare with the latest change?

Brutusmax1mus

sluice wrote: »

How does riposte fare with the latest change?

Not giving much time eh. You can treat with his set up yourself you know

TheDoomsdayMonster

Now that Riposte is getting wacked by the Nerf Bat, I have an announcement to make:

The Order of The Combat Physician is willing to forgive those who have committed heresy against the doctrine of the Order and accept you back into our fold provided that you first get down on your KNEES!!! and beg to be spared complete and total ANNIHILATION!!! for your disobedience to the one true Order above all...

Koensol

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Now that Riposte is getting wacked by the Nerf Bat, I have an announcement to make:

The Order of The Combat Physician is willing to forgive those who have committed heresy against the doctrine of the Order and accept you back into our fold provided that you first get down on your KNEES!!! and beg to be spared complete and total ANNIHILATION!!! for your disobedience to the one true Order above all...

Kind of sad that even after the OP asked multiple times to not post about that set in here, you still do so over and over again. Masking it as a joke makes it even more pathetic. It just shows you have zero respect and that you find your neurotic desire to prove yourself to others more important. Give it a rest man.

TheDoomsdayMonster

Koensol wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Now that Riposte is getting wacked by the Nerf Bat, I have an announcement to make:

The Order of The Combat Physician is willing to forgive those who have committed heresy against the doctrine of the Order and accept you back into our fold provided that you first get down on your KNEES!!! and beg to be spared complete and total ANNIHILATION!!! for your disobedience to the one true Order above all...

Kind of sad that even after the OP asked multiple times to not post about that set in here, you still do so over and over again. Masking it as a joke makes it even more pathetic. It just shows you have zero respect and that you find your neurotic desire to prove yourself to others more important. Give it a rest man.

Dude...it really was just a joke...relax man.