[MATH] PvP Defensive Set Comparison (Impreg, Brass, Pariah, Riposte, + more)

Brutusmax1mus

@Taylor_MB im interested to see, i'm interested to see your usage of Pariah. It sounds like a switch you hit for mitigation (bar swapping) as opposed to using it to extend offensive windows. Interesting applicaton to say the least. I'll give it a shot too!

BlackMadara

@Taylor_MB I had a similar set up with my mDK and found that having pariah on both bars had a better feel.

I see mTemp and mDK being similar in having distinct offensive and defensive phrases. The difference for my mDK though, in the decision to have pariah front bar as well, was being able to go for the power lash finish to also get the heal in low health situations.

Interested to see how your temp performs with your set up though. Good luck man

Reefo

BlackMadara wrote: »

@Taylor_MB I had a similar set up with my mDK and found that having pariah on both bars had a better feel.

I see mTemp and mDK being similar in having distinct offensive and defensive phrases. The difference for my mDK though, in the decision to have pariah front bar as well, was being able to go for the power lash finish to also get the heal in low health situations.

Interested to see how your temp performs with your set up though. Good luck man

i tried to play mag dk like a templar, full defense then full offense, didn't work for me.

mag dk healing defensively kinda sucks where a templar excels, and offensively mag dk healing beats a templar
honor the dead > coagulating blood
power lash > puncturing sweeps

i use wizards on magplar and pariah on magdk... both double barred
pariah can definitely be used back bar on a magplar since when you see you health go to 50% on your front you switch to heal, as magdk you wont switch if u on 50% can cast fossilize and get off a power lash like you said.

BlackMadara

Reefo wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

@Taylor_MB I had a similar set up with my mDK and found that having pariah on both bars had a better feel.

I see mTemp and mDK being similar in having distinct offensive and defensive phrases. The difference for my mDK though, in the decision to have pariah front bar as well, was being able to go for the power lash finish to also get the heal in low health situations.

Interested to see how your temp performs with your set up though. Good luck man

i tried to play mag dk like a templar, full defense then full offense, didn't work for me.

mag dk healing defensively kinda sucks where a templar excels, and offensively mag dk healing beats a templar
honor the dead > coagulating blood
power lash > puncturing sweeps

i use wizards on magplar and pariah on magdk... both double barred
pariah can definitely be used back bar on a magplar since when you see you health go to 50% on your front you switch to heal, as magdk you wont switch if u on 50% can cast fossilize and get off a power lash like you said.

To clarify, imo, a defensive phase for a standard DK would be a dot and debuff phase. Then the offense phase is setting up for power lash, ult combo. So a DK's defensive toolset is more "active" in that it is semioffensive while a Temp is more turtle like.

I agree with your comparison between the two.

My specific playstyle uses BSW on back bar, Pariah double barred. I set dots, proc burning, then go offensive with a willpower staff front bar for 8 seconds. Pariah is awesome.

Reefo

Pariah or armor master on back bar medium armor Stam warden?

Syiccal

how does steadfast hero match up compared to other sets

Emma_Overload

I've been going back and forth between all the defensive sets, and NOTHING compares in practice to Impregnable.

Minno

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I've been going back and forth between all the defensive sets, and NOTHING compares in practice to Impregnable.

Trans is better for Mag builds. double regen stats can mean life or death plus giving crit resists to buddies so they don't have to run impreg too.

kaithuzar

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I've been going back and forth between all the defensive sets, and NOTHING compares in practice to Impregnable.

For what class?
I would imagine on your sorc 5 light 2 heavy or 5-1-1(light), w/ armor master & dampen on both bars would be pretty decent

Brutusmax1mus

kaithuzar wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I've been going back and forth between all the defensive sets, and NOTHING compares in practice to Impregnable.

For what class?
I would imagine on your sorc 5 light 2 heavy or 5-1-1(light), w/ armor master & dampen on both bars would be pretty decent

And where do you get your sustain/ damage

kaithuzar

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I've been going back and forth between all the defensive sets, and NOTHING compares in practice to Impregnable.

For what class?
I would imagine on your sorc 5 light 2 heavy or 5-1-1(light), w/ armor master & dampen on both bars would be pretty decent

And where do you get your sustain/ damage

Argonian w/pots or high elf with recovery, vamp if you want, otherwise witch mothers/clockwork citrus filet, recovery mundus, you could do either 3 infused spell damage or 3 infused w/ 1 sp dmg, 1 recovery, 1 reduced cost.

There is also the option of your second 5 piece to consider. You could run spinners or swap to penetration mundus & do amberplasm/seducer/bright throat w/all infused spell dmg jewelry

Lots of options.

Joy_Division

@Taylor_MB

I'd be interested in you thoughts comparing Mark of the Pariah with the New Steadfast Hero set. They're both heavy have have the same 2,3,4 bonuses (health, physical resist, spell resist).

Pariah: "Increases your Physical and Spell Resistance by up to 11094 based on your missing Health."

Steadfast: "When you cleanse a negative effect from yourself or an ally, gain Major Protection for 5 seconds, reducing your damage taken by 30%. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds."

The Pariah set I've heard was updated, such that you begin to gain some bonus to resistance at full healrh (not sure what the number is at 100%) and I'm not sure if the 11094 number listed in the Wiki reflects the update. Does your program reflect that update and do you happen to know those numbers?

Minno

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Taylor_MB

I'd be interested in you thoughts comparing Mark of the Pariah with the New Steadfast Hero set. They're both heavy have have the same 2,3,4 bonuses (health, physical resist, spell resist).

Pariah: "Increases your Physical and Spell Resistance by up to 11094 based on your missing Health."

Steadfast: "When you cleanse a negative effect from yourself or an ally, gain Major Protection for 5 seconds, reducing your damage taken by 30%. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds."

The Pariah set I've heard was updated, such that you begin to gain some bonus to resistance at full healrh (not sure what the number is at 100%) and I'm not sure if the 11094 number listed in the Wiki reflects the update. Does your program reflect that update and do you happen to know those numbers?

Joy,

pariah gives about 2500 resists at full health. I believe this was tested and shown on page 2 or 3. The spreadsheet should account for this.

YOu should be able to search for "pariah armor at full health" too and there should be posts on the forums showing the values.

Taylor_MB

Mark of Pariah vs Steadfast Hero
@Joy_Division & @Minno + anyone else

TL;DR
Pariah is better for defense.
Steadfast is best if you can time your proccing to carry onto your front bar.

Formula for Pariah resistances is

5465 + 9414 * (1 - Current HP%)

which breaks down as-
• 2975 from 3pc or 4pc bonus
• 2940 from 5pc at 100% HP
• 9414 remaining from 5pc to be gradually applied at HP loss


Comparing Mitigation
Steadfast 5pc at max uptime gives identical mitigation to Wizard's Riposte 5pc at max uptime. So taking into account the additional resistances that SH gives in 3pc and 4pc bonuses, it is definitely the best pure mitigation set when at 100% HP (Impregnable may still beat it in some scenarios, but unlikely given the nerf).

Pariah will still outperform at around the 65%-70% HP mark (I'll add SH into the spreadsheet this weekend and supply a more accurate result).

Overall the mitigation levels between these two sets are pretty equal. Steadfast will give you higher front bar mitigation, increasing your offensive window. Whereas Pariah will give higher mitigation when you need to go defensive. So the main difference between these two sets is the playstyle and conditions to get the mitigation ...


Comparing Playstyle and Proc Conditions (subjective analysis)
Pariah is undoubtedly the premier defensive set in the game, but its trade off is that it cannot be carried over in anyway to front bar / offensive stage. Pariah won't increase your offensive window, only make you harder to kill when defending.

Steadfast will carry over to your front bar / offensive stage, but it's definitely more tricky to hit maximum uptime and work your proccing into your rotation. Conceivably I can see this working splendidly on a MagDK with Reflective Plate (if that procs it, must test), as you won't be either wasting a GCD just to proc or already be cleansing because you are on the defensive (in which case Pariah would be better). Wyrd Tree's Blessing could also be used to automate the proc (although the cool downs don't exactly align).

Essentially you'd need to expertly time the proc to switch from defensive to offensive bar and drop a 5 second burst to make this set outperform Pariah. It absolutely has the potential to mitigate the most damage of any set whilst on offensive, but your timing would have to be impeccable.

Joy_Division

Thanks! That was my suspicion; SH should be back-barred otherwise the other sets will probably give a better value from their average mitigation over the course of a fight.

Minno

@Taylor_MB we should test if forward momentum and mist also procs steadfast too.

kaithuzar

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Mark of Pariah vs Steadfast Hero
@Joy_Division & @Minno + anyone else

TL;DR
Pariah is better for defense.
Steadfast is best if you can time your proccing to carry onto your front bar.

Formula for Pariah resistances is

5465 + 9414 * (1 - Current HP%)

which breaks down as-
• 2975 from 3pc or 4pc bonus
• 2940 from 5pc at 100% HP
• 9414 remaining from 5pc to be gradually applied at HP loss


Comparing Mitigation
Steadfast 5pc at max uptime gives identical mitigation to Wizard's Riposte 5pc at max uptime. So taking into account the additional resistances that SH gives in 3pc and 4pc bonuses, it is definitely the best pure mitigation set when at 100% HP (Impregnable may still beat it in some scenarios, but unlikely given the nerf).

Pariah will still outperform at around the 65%-70% HP mark (I'll add SH into the spreadsheet this weekend and supply a more accurate result).

Overall the mitigation levels between these two sets are pretty equal. Steadfast will give you higher front bar mitigation, increasing your offensive window. Whereas Pariah will give higher mitigation when you need to go defensive. So the main difference between these two sets is the playstyle and conditions to get the mitigation ...


Comparing Playstyle and Proc Conditions (subjective analysis)
Pariah is undoubtedly the premier defensive set in the game, but its trade off is that it cannot be carried over in anyway to front bar / offensive stage. Pariah won't increase your offensive window, only make you harder to kill when defending.

Steadfast will carry over to your front bar / offensive stage, but it's definitely more tricky to hit maximum uptime and work your proccing into your rotation. Conceivably I can see this working splendidly on a MagDK with Reflective Plate (if that procs it, must test), as you won't be either wasting a GCD just to proc or already be cleansing because you are on the defensive (in which case Pariah would be better). Wyrd Tree's Blessing could also be used to automate the proc (although the cool downs don't exactly align).

Essentially you'd need to expertly time the proc to switch from defensive to offensive bar and drop a 5 second burst to make this set outperform Pariah. It absolutely has the potential to mitigate the most damage of any set whilst on offensive, but your timing would have to be impeccable.

Why won’t pariah increase your offensive window if double barred?
Or were you just stating it won’t carryover if it’s only back barred?

Joy_Division

Minno wrote: »

@Taylor_MB we should test if forward momentum and mist also procs steadfast too.

Haha Sneaky

Minno

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Taylor_MB we should test if forward momentum and mist also procs steadfast too.

Haha Sneaky

it is something that isnt clear (like most zos tooltips on first release lol).

Like does the game know the ability "purges" or does the game only check for debuffs removed?
Does this mean that any debuff that loses it's duration is "purged" according to the set? Or does the debuff have to be purged early? Does breaking free of eclipse proc the set? (since eclipse counts as a debuff).

Lots of questions and most got lost in the initial reading of the tooltip and having never gone past "cleansing". My guess it's exactly as the tooltip states, but we all know how that rolls lol.

Also jourvalds should boost the uptime on that MP buff too.

JAwtunes

Removing snares in overland PVE using Shuffle and Ret Manoeuvre isn't procing MP for me. I haven't tried Forward Momentum but I was assume the same would apply there too. I manged to proc using Purge, unsurprisingly...

Taylor_MB

@JAwtunes Thanks for the report. That's a bummer, it would've opened up a few more interesting uses for the set.

@kaithuzar Pariah will increase your offensive window when front barred, but compared to any other set that gives mitigation regardless of HP% (Brass, Impreg, WR), it's weak sauce.

@Minno Good thinking with Jorvulds, that would give you a maximum uptime of 70%, it only adds 2 seconds and not sure if it's worth 2x 5pcs, but that is definitely a combination to consider.

@Joy_Division Definitely back barred, otherwise your 5pc is doing nothing for 50% of the time.

Just some additional thoughts below, same conclusions but was just considering some more/different aspects of the set...

If you can proc on (or near) cooldown whilst on offensive (but obviously still taking damage that needs mitigating), then it will mitigate more than any other set. However, the problem with that is you need to waste a GCD instead of doing damage, you need to spend the GCD to mitigate future damage that may or may not arrive in the specific time frame you want it (future being in 0-5seconds, leaving you vulnerable in 5-10seconds).

Whereas if you only proc'd when on defensive then it would absolutely be better going with a consistent mitigation set to increase your offensive window (or Pariah for low HP defense). However, if you proc on defensive then immediately switched to offense in that 5second window you have, that would be mint, but sounds very difficult to pull off.

Assuming 100% uptime the set is great, just can't picture many scenarios where that is either possible or the best tactical decision in a fight (purging instead of keeping applying pressure).

Hotdog_23

Very useful information, thanks for sharing.

Soris

There was an info in somewhere but i cant find it. Can anyone please say how much of a mitigation percentage that a 1k armor/s.resist provides?

Minno

Soris wrote: »

There was an info in somewhere but i cant find it. Can anyone please say how much of a mitigation percentage that a 1k armor/s.resist provides?

armor divided by 660 divided by 100. But you must tally your total armor subtracted by typical penetration, since that is the equation.

Example:
21k resists - 10k pen = 11k resist.
11k resist / 660/100 = 0.1666

About 16.66% mitigation

Then add resist and compare the mitigation gained:

1k added:
22k resist - 10k pen = 12k resists
12k resist/ 660/ 100 = 0.181818

About 18.18% mitigation. So you gained 1.52% in this example.

Edit:
@paulsimonps let me know that the equation for PVP is actually 660 not 662 in my example. TLDR explanation is that PVE gets a base of 100 penetration while in PVP players do not get this 100 base. 662 is still needed for PVE calculations.

Soris

In math I trust. Thank you so much!

Minno

Soris wrote: »

In math I trust. Thank you so much!

Also, if you add another 1k:

2k added:
23k resist - 10k pen = 13k resists
13k resist/ 660/ 100 = 0.1969

About 19.69% mitigation. So you gained 3.03% in this example compared to the first 16.66%.

kaithuzar

Minno wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

In math I trust. Thank you so much!

Also, if you add another 1k:

2k added:
23k resist - 10k pen = 13k resists
13k resist/ 660/ 100 = 0.1969

About 19.69% mitigation. So you gained 3.03% in this example compared to the first 16.66%.

So are there jump points with mitigation or does it scale linearly?

Minno

kaithuzar wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

In math I trust. Thank you so much!

Also, if you add another 1k:

2k added:
23k resist - 10k pen = 13k resists
13k resist/ 660/ 100 = 0.1969

About 19.69% mitigation. So you gained 3.03% in this example compared to the first 16.66%.

So are there jump points with mitigation or does it scale linearly?

resist have a cap of 33000 in pvp (pve is 33100). 33000 is basically 50% mitigation, but you can be penetrated so having more is viable for some builds.

armor values translates to a percentage, but there are no jump points. This is why spell shield and armor focus CP are great to dump your extra points into (because you will see the benefit).

When armor translates to percentage, you calculate it against a full tooltip, after minor maim/crits. For example, a 15k attack with minor maim and the above 19.69% is calculated as this:
15k (base attack) * 0.85 (minor maim subtracted from 100%)* 0.8031 (armor subtracted from 100%) = 10239.525 dmg hits you.

edit:
also mitigation is a term for ALL the dmg reducing stats calculated in ESO. Crit resists, maim, armor, %-based mitigation, shields, and block are different mechanics within the mitigation system (and all calculated in the order I have written them).

NupidStoob

Minno wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

There was an info in somewhere but i cant find it. Can anyone please say how much of a mitigation percentage that a 1k armor/s.resist provides?

armor divided by 660 divided by 100. But you must tally your total armor subtracted by typical penetration, since that is the equation.

Example:
21k resists - 10k pen = 11k resist.
11k resist / 660/100 = 0.1666

About 16.66% mitigation

Then add resist and compare the mitigation gained:

1k added:
22k resist - 10k pen = 12k resists
12k resist/ 660/ 100 = 0.181818

About 18.18% mitigation. So you gained 1.52% in this example.

Edit:
@paulsimonps let me know that the equation for PVP is actually 660 not 662 in my example. TLDR explanation is that PVE gets a base of 100 penetration while in PVP players do not get this 100 base. 662 is still needed for PVE calculations.

Wasn't base penetration removed with Murkmire?

Also what is the point of the random division by 100? Just dividing by 660 already tells you the percentage value or not?

Minno

NupidStoob wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

There was an info in somewhere but i cant find it. Can anyone please say how much of a mitigation percentage that a 1k armor/s.resist provides?

armor divided by 660 divided by 100. But you must tally your total armor subtracted by typical penetration, since that is the equation.

Example:
21k resists - 10k pen = 11k resist.
11k resist / 660/100 = 0.1666

About 16.66% mitigation

Then add resist and compare the mitigation gained:

1k added:
22k resist - 10k pen = 12k resists
12k resist/ 660/ 100 = 0.181818

About 18.18% mitigation. So you gained 1.52% in this example.

Edit:
@paulsimonps let me know that the equation for PVP is actually 660 not 662 in my example. TLDR explanation is that PVE gets a base of 100 penetration while in PVP players do not get this 100 base. 662 is still needed for PVE calculations.

Wasn't base penetration removed with Murkmire?

Also what is the point of the random division by 100? Just dividing by 660 already tells you the percentage value or not?

They removed base penetration, yes.

The equation is basically this:
(100*(1-((Resistance/660)/100)

It gives you a value you can use to multiply against the tooltip number so you don't have to remember to subtract after you multiply a percentage.