UPDATED: So... about those Crown Crates in light of Belgium's ruling that they are gambling

MaxwellC

In all honesty I really hope they do away with this all through-out the world as it is a practice that IMO sucks and further supports games to solely focus on that instead of building more content to attract people to make those purchases.

Slick_007

[quote="Nyx2;c-4663971"

You said you're unlikely to buy any further crown crates, meaning they aren't worth your money. [/quote]

unlikely means unlikely. as in theres a chance i will. or do i prefer to spend my money on somethinhg else. People have priorities. If these were a high priority for me, id suggest i have an issue. But since i dont, my money is more likely to go elsewhere. new car, food, entertainment etc. Yes, i may be crates again. after my sub renews i'll have a tonne of crowns and i might spend some on a crate or two. do i go buy crowns to spend on crates? no. i use the ones i get from subbing.

Or if you want to nitpick: your money doesn't support crown crates, making them an unsuccessful marketing practise of making you pay. Turn it however you want, if you don't buy something then there isn't sufficient interest. Which brings me back to the question of why do you feel the need to defend unfavourable business models?

if i dont buy something? i have bought crates. how hard is this to understand. i said it clearly enough the last time. unfavorable because you say so. why do you feel the need to impose your 'morals' on me?

If you can get consumables in every roll which are not only worthless but less in value than buying said consumable directly then that's clearly scam.

try again. are you even talking about the same thing here? you still have zero clue what a scam is. and the more you post, the more obvious that becomes.

Would you be more happy if I call them something else? Malicious, deceitful, overpriced, junk or just awful? Pick whatever you like but if "go whine" or something along the lines of "play something else" is all you have when someone voices concern then I'm not sure a forum for discussions and arguments is the fitting place for it.

id be perfectly happy for you to start telling the truth. you clearly havent been doing that with calling it a scam simply because you dont like it. This is the game. there are plenty of people that are perfectly happy to accept this is how it is.* If you dont like something that you can choose to do, or not to do, well, shouldnt you go do something else instead of making up lies about it and constantly whinging and trying to impose your 'morals' on everyone else? wouldnt that be the smarter thing to do? the happier thing to do?

malicious? nope. deceitful? nope. overpriced? thats an opinion and you're welcome to it. junk? opinion as well. awful? again, opinion.

stop trying to pass off your opinions as if they are facts, and stop trying to impose your 'morals' on everyone else. and of course, stop lying and claiming things are scams because you dont like them. Then perhaps we can all get along.

*this does not mean people shouldnt bug report or make suggestions on new content or that things shouldnt ever change. but there a major difference between suggesting new content be summerset isles for instance, and taking away other peoples choice to buy crates.

Samadhi

Eddyble wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

the only time rares were guaranteed
were in pre-built deck boxes

Depends on the game, I suppose. But all the card packs I bought for games had a specific layout of cards. 15-card magic packs were 1 rare, 3 uncommon, 12 common. But yeah, then there was the random chance of a foil version of one of those cards. And there was always the issue of "yes, one card is a rare. Doesn't mean it's a rare that's any good, that anyone wants, or is worth more than the paper it was printed on."

Kind of like getting yet another bad-trait/wrong weapon from VMA. (well, before trait switching )

Yeah, was referring solely to the pokémon cards that were name-dropped in the post he or she was responding to

Maybe pokemon was more crooked because they sold mainly to kids, who they probably did not have to worry about calculating out odds

Since I was managing a comic book shop during the Pokémon hoopla, and I used to open boxes to resell individual cards, does that make me the ZOS of that era?
...

Did you buy and trade cards based on value with customers?
Did you have a system of false currency or store credit assigning values to the cards?
You may be in the clear, but never know.

Zhaedri

I don't mind that they are gambling, but I do mind that the odds aren't posted like other gambling things need to have.

Mureel

Slick_007 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Ill post this again, since it is perfectly relevant to what you just said.

so you didnt understand the fix the first time, and you still dont, so you post your dribble all over again.

instead of screwing everyone over, fix healthcare. then everything you said is irrelevant. and that would be a far better place for your govt to spend its time and money than banning loot crates in game.
but dont let sense and logic hit you in the face on your way out. and i say your face, cuz youre backwards.

It's 'drivel.' Dribble = Drool. That said I agree with your points otherwise.

LadyAstrum

AnviOfVai wrote: »

I spend loads of money on Lootcrates, I'm sure others do too, but in my mind I have to have those limited items. There is a CHANCE that I can get that item but the chance is so low that I know its pretty pathetic for me to buy them. But I can't actually help myself from doing it. Once I buy one, I will buy another, and another. I stay out of arcades too...my gosh..

I would prefer that I could not see the crates in the store at all. Lock them somehow, for my account, or make the odds higher than what they are (but this would still make me buy them.... I can't win.. haha!)

I was a little like this with SWTOR's loot boxes. I felt compelled to buy them, but not so with ESO's. The few I've tried were so full of junk it didn't seem worth it. I did get a skeleton guar mount, but it's only good for halloween in my view.

Huyen

The game is 18+, wich means anyone that is playing, and possibly buying a crown-crate is responsible for his or her own actions. So forbidding it in a country like belgium is going to be near impossible, let alone to monitor it, because privacy-rules are still in effect.

Iselin

Huyen wrote: »

The game is 18+, wich means anyone that is playing, and possibly buying a crown-crate is responsible for his or her own actions. So forbidding it in a country like belgium is going to be near impossible, let alone to monitor it, because privacy-rules are still in effect.

Not that it makes that much difference but the game is 17+ not 18+.

That's the ESRB for you: "M" is 17 and "A" is 18. ESO is "M."The age difference is silly and arbitrary but that's not the real issue.

The real issue is that "A" games are the highest designation. There is nothing higher than 18+. "A" games are banned by a lot of retailers as well as XBOX Live and PSN. You can figure out why no publisher wants their AAA games rated "A."

It's also worth noting that the two main reasons that SWBF2 triggered this is because it's rated "T" for teen. So 13+ in that case. It's also Star Wars and a Disney IP: it's aimed at kids much younger that those who can legitimately buy ESO.

TankinatorFR

Not that it makes that much difference but the game is 17+ not 18+.

Depend of your country.
In some countries, it is +18.

ADarklore

MaxwellC wrote: »

In all honesty I really hope they do away with this all through-out the world as it is a practice that IMO sucks and further supports games to solely focus on that instead of building more content to attract people to make those purchases.

Kind of interesting... as there is no 'content' that people would buy that makes as much money for ZOS as the crates do. If you even look at Morrowind, all the uproar and complaints because it had to be purchased separately from ESO+, but the entire reason ZOS went B2P was because the subscription system was not enough to support the game long-term. So imagine if players had to buy content every quarter, you really think this would attract more people??

InvitationNotFound

Just in case it hasn't been previously posted...

why you should care:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/richard-garfield/a-game-players-manifesto/1049168888532667

mirta000b16_ESO

Stopnaggin wrote: »

So take everyone else's rights away correct? This is a stupid argument. Because of obesiety we should outlaw sweets and unhealthy food. Cigarettes because of lung cancer. Alcohol because of alcoholics. Absolutely take away my choices because of the negative effects. I dont think so. I like having my own choices, and I don't need any politician to tell me what choices I should make. Its called free will, and as hard as that is to understand, I like it. The consequence are my own. Thats called personal responsibility, I like it too.

Maybe those who have a weakness or addiction should seek help from a professional, but taking away my choice should not be an option.

You would have a choice to buy each item individually. Do you actually enjoy paying money to raffle between hundreds of rewards?

Vulsahdaal wrote: »

I'm sure not everyone playing the game is 18+, however, where I'm from, they must be 18+ to get a credit card. Now, if these kids are stealing credit cards, even if just from their own parents, then I think they may have bigger issues to deal with than crown crates.

I'm an adult in full time employment and all I have is a debit card. Debit cards are enough for all online transactions including video games. In some countries you can get them at the age of 12 or earlier as long as you have parental permission. And you CAN actually overdraft a debit card if you so choose to. Unlike a credit card you do not schedule a payment for a later date though, you go to minus and are auto on a loan to your bank with extortionate interest.

Coolits

I hope they get regulated or removed from games especially after hearing terms like "predatory behavior" aimed at children. Which responsable publisher would want to be involved with something that is now looked at in this light?

FYI - Victoria Australia have also stated loot boxes are gambling

altemriel

I bet that when they would cancel crown crates completely and if they would then put all the items from them into crown store, as regular items, not some limited time offers, they would make the same money, if not event more!!

only some less people would be given fuel for their gambling addictions

Elsonso

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Just in case it hasn't been previously posted...

why you should care:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/richard-garfield/a-game-players-manifesto/1049168888532667

This is what I have been saying about Crown Crates since the beginning, and why I put PAWS in my signature.

"It will lead to worse games. Ultimately games are designed for the people who are paying for them. Design decisions that make the game reach more addictive players, or exploit existing players a little more will be considered even if they make the game play a little worse. When they are used successfully they will encourage more such changes. Will this lead to a world where all games are like slot machines – Skinner boxes designed to maximize addictive behavior? Probably not entirely ... But the design certainly won’t be optimal for those remaining non-addictive players – we can expect the design to only be ‘good enough’."

I have also been of the opinion that "just cosmetics" is irrelevant to the above, and the Manifesto explains why Crown Crate cosmetic rewards do not suddenly make them OK.

"Cosmetics: ... I think it is possible to have a game that has ‘fashion’ which is fairly open ended and not abusive. Usually I use my own sense of what the value of the game element is to guide what my understanding of the level of abuse – but cosmetics are different. Some game players are going to value the cosmetics more than others, while all game players share at least rudimentary idea of the value of something like a power up. For that reason you can have a pricey cosmetic system in a game which has a high value to some percentage of a game playing population and no value to another without necessarily being an abuse. Of course, the way cosmetic items are delivered can itself be a separate game which is exploitive of addictive behavior. A slot machine a player pays for which gives random cosmetics has more of a chance of being abusive than random prizes while playing or a simple store."

In this game, Cosmetics is just the hook to keep people buying Crown Crates. They still need to drive people to buy them, and in increasing numbers. They just use Cosmetics to do it, instead of armor or weapons.

No matter how you parse it, development money that could be going into making the game better, is going into Crown Crates. How much? To what degree? We have no idea. Was Sheogorad dropped from Vvardenfell because they could not put the extra staff on it? Could the money for that staff have been diverted from Crown Crate development? When the revenue comes from Crown Crates, it probably becomes unthinkable to divert resources away from them for something as insignificant as Sheogorad, or more places to explore and things to do in the game.

I am still waiting for the "philosophy change" with regard to the Crown Store. Crown Crates are an incredibly powerful revenue generating system, and if EA has taught us anything, it is that studios and publishers are intoxicated by that thought. They will continue to push the boundaries to find out what loot crates can really do for them.

In the end, I expect that what ZOS and Bethesda see in the actions of EA are channel markers of things to avoid, not a studio that ruined the fun for everyone. They are following the path of EA, and now know where the dangerous reef is. In whatever plans they have for the next generation of Crown Crates, you can be sure that they will take measures to avoid that reef.

Jade1986

Balamoor wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

The fact that a government wants to take a person's choice is all I see in this. Remove crates, bars, brothels and anything else they deem offensive right? Just shut down all gaming unless is Disney because someone may have violent tendencies and get triggered by playing a game that has violence in it. No racing games because it may cause me to speed in my car.

When will people start taking personal responsibility again? I dont the govt any further into my life then they already are. I'm a big boy and can make big boy choices without any help from politicians.

Ill post this again, since it is perfectly relevant to what you just said.

Classic. " you should have personal responsibility , go get help "

ok , Ill go get help. Wait, I cant afford it, because the government took away my healthcare.

" Get a job then freeloader!"

Ok, but I cant get a job because I am disabled.

" Then go to the doctor snowflake"

Ok, but I cant afford it because the government took my healthcare away.

" Then stop being lazy !"

Ok, lets ignore the fact that I am disabled, I cant apply for a job or look for one because I have no money for gas , a cell phone, or internet. Can I get some help? I have kids after all.

" No, stop expecting handouts! And you shouldnt have had kids then!"

Well I didnt know I was pregnant until 3 months in and abortion was made illegal in my state, and since planned parenthood was closed, I couldnt afford condoms

You guys get where this is going.

recycle and repeat.

Seriously, in a perfect world everyone wouldnt have problems , everyone would have a fantastic job, no one would be born with a predisposition to addiction, etc. But that isnt the case. Is it? Maybe people should stop voting against their best interests? Its funny how people complain about big government, but are perfectly fine with big government over reaching when it suits them.

Respectfully.

All I read when I see nonsense like this, is a drumbeat for a nanny state. Having been to and lived in several socialist countries, I can tell you that in every instance it leads to being told how to think in a totalitarian manner. If you want to see just how swell government control is talk to any Polish citizen born before 1975, or any Venezuelan today

I personally am a fan of self responsibility and rugged individualism...not victim excuses.

And honestly 1984 should be a cautionary tale not a how to manual.

I live in Germany, and enjoy total freedom , you were saying?

Jade1986

Slick_007 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Ill post this again, since it is perfectly relevant to what you just said.

so you didnt understand the fix the first time, and you still dont, so you post your dribble all over again.

instead of screwing everyone over, fix healthcare. then everything you said is irrelevant. and that would be a far better place for your govt to spend its time and money than banning loot crates in game.
but dont let sense and logic hit you in the face on your way out. and i say your face, cuz youre backwards.

Which " personal responsibility and social programs opponents " will not allow. So..... you were saying? And how is banning the single most unpopular feature introduced into mmos and games in recent history screwing everyone over? Try again.

And believing the governments responsibility is to take care of its citizens is backwards? Compared to what? A corporate welfare state? Yeah, please try again.

Jade1986

Stopnaggin wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Storymaster wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno

I hope I'm posting this in the correct forum - it seems like a general topic to me.

The Belgium Gaming Commission has ruled (rather quickly) that yes, loot boxes constitute a form of gambling and they will be seeking that the EU ban them. They focused on the SWBF2 and Overwatch systems but, as I understand it, the ruling is more general than that.

https://www.mmorpg.com/news/belgium-rules-loot-boxes-are-gambling-seeks-to-have-an-eu-ban-implmented-1000046476

IMO, this is a long way from over but it IS a first.

I doubt there will be an official ZOS statement about this but I'm "atting" Gina just in case they do want to comment.

What do the rest of you think?

@Iselin
Ack.... Man, this is a very, very slippery slope and we need to be careful of what the potential repercussions could be, especially with interpretation of the law.

While I am no fan of crime crates and the concept of loot boxes in general, where does one draw the line and what would such laws be open to interpretation for. Also, what if the game becomes unavailable altogether in some regions because of this feature? That seems extremely harsh.

This just doesn't sound good to me on any level. It's a can of worms we don't need opened.

And maybe it's just the American in me, but I hate it when governments try to rob individuals of choice and self-governing.

But its ok for corporations to prey on children and make millions by putting scam crates in the game? Well, that does sound pretty american.

How about pretending to be a parent instead of letting the govt tell you how to parent. Yep pretty Damn American concept. Take some personal responsibility and you won't need to worry about it, but hey must be a EU thing to let the govt control your life to that extent. Because politicians always have your best interest at heart.

Your pretty damned american concept has gotten your country....where? Anyhow, I am done arguing this, I am content in knowing the majority of the planet disagrees with that ideology, and am getting back on topic.



Its just a matter of time before these things get banned everywhere. It can only benefit the game when they do so the devs are forced to get money from meaningful content instead of crapshoot boxes.

R4TTIUS

Well looks like EA have realised they messed up big time.

https://m.hexus.net/gaming/news/industry/112280-star-wars-battlefront-ii-micro-transactions-ditched-now/

mirta000b16_ESO

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Well looks like EA have realised they messed up big time.

https://m.hexus.net/gaming/news/industry/112280-star-wars-battlefront-ii-micro-transactions-ditched-now/

Ditched for a few weeks and due to come back in a little bit.

R4TTIUS

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Well looks like EA have realised they messed up big time.

https://m.hexus.net/gaming/news/industry/112280-star-wars-battlefront-ii-micro-transactions-ditched-now/

Ditched for a few weeks and due to come back in a little bit.

Although they are the worst culprits of this issue it's just good to see them take a very small responsibility and try to do something.

mirta000b16_ESO

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Although they are the worst culprits of this issue it's just good to see them take a very small responsibility and try to do something.

Their previous attempts at controlling this outrage resulted in them making an "apology" where they lower all the prices (but also significantly slashed the speed in which you can earn these items that they did not disclose publicly) and also trying to switch off refunds for Battlefront II entirely. So I'm expecting something rather horrible to come out from this PR attempt too.

R4TTIUS

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Although they are the worst culprits of this issue it's just good to see them take a very small responsibility and try to do something.

Their previous attempts at controlling this outrage resulted in them making an "apology" where they lower all the prices (but also significantly slashed the speed in which you can earn these items that they did not disclose publicly) and also trying to switch off refunds for Battlefront II entirely. So I'm expecting something rather horrible to come out from this PR attempt too.

Totally see where your coming from and there is 99% an alternate motive behind this.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Unfortunately it looks like they're just trying to make the outrage outdated rather actually FIX anything.

(Link for source of what I mean: link.)

EA spends tens of thousands of man-hours focus testing and doing market research on the optimum way to wring money out of your wallet. This means that one or two days (or weeks or months) of complaining will not get them to change their mind regarding the nature of the progression system. They will not truly "fix" it because they believe that it's working as intended and their accountants and marketing guys will tell them that it is. A certain amount of players are supposed to get sick of it and stop playing. That's built-in to the calculations, like when Wal-Mart assumes that there will be a certain amount of shoplifting.

That said, they understand that they have a cluster[#&*#] on their hands, so since they are not interested in fixing it, they are going to use a technique referred to as "making the outrage outdated." This was very clearly what they did with the beta. The beta had a great deal of backlash and instead of fixing anything, they "made changes." The effect of these changes were negligible but it didn't matter because all the articles written about the flaws of the beta and the complaints by users became outdated and replaced by articles and comments about how they were making "changes." This allows them to control the narrative of their product without actually losing any money or making significant changes. The fact that the changes didn't help and potentially made the game worse didn't matter.

Balamoor

Jade1986 wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

The fact that a government wants to take a person's choice is all I see in this. Remove crates, bars, brothels and anything else they deem offensive right? Just shut down all gaming unless is Disney because someone may have violent tendencies and get triggered by playing a game that has violence in it. No racing games because it may cause me to speed in my car.

When will people start taking personal responsibility again? I dont the govt any further into my life then they already are. I'm a big boy and can make big boy choices without any help from politicians.

Ill post this again, since it is perfectly relevant to what you just said.

Classic. " you should have personal responsibility , go get help "

ok , Ill go get help. Wait, I cant afford it, because the government took away my healthcare.

" Get a job then freeloader!"

Ok, but I cant get a job because I am disabled.

" Then go to the doctor snowflake"

Ok, but I cant afford it because the government took my healthcare away.

" Then stop being lazy !"

Ok, lets ignore the fact that I am disabled, I cant apply for a job or look for one because I have no money for gas , a cell phone, or internet. Can I get some help? I have kids after all.

" No, stop expecting handouts! And you shouldnt have had kids then!"

Well I didnt know I was pregnant until 3 months in and abortion was made illegal in my state, and since planned parenthood was closed, I couldnt afford condoms

You guys get where this is going.

recycle and repeat.

Seriously, in a perfect world everyone wouldnt have problems , everyone would have a fantastic job, no one would be born with a predisposition to addiction, etc. But that isnt the case. Is it? Maybe people should stop voting against their best interests? Its funny how people complain about big government, but are perfectly fine with big government over reaching when it suits them.

Respectfully.

All I read when I see nonsense like this, is a drumbeat for a nanny state. Having been to and lived in several socialist countries, I can tell you that in every instance it leads to being told how to think in a totalitarian manner. If you want to see just how swell government control is talk to any Polish citizen born before 1975, or any Venezuelan today

I personally am a fan of self responsibility and rugged individualism...not victim excuses.

And honestly 1984 should be a cautionary tale not a how to manual.

I live in Germany, and enjoy total freedom , you were saying?

Really...because two months ago I was in Berlin and two nice Policemen told me not to walk down Soldiner Street because of the color of my skin......what were you saying about freedom?

Jade1986 wrote: »

Its just a matter of time before these things get banned everywhere. It can only benefit the game when they do so the devs are forced to get money from meaningful content instead of crapshoot boxes.

Never going to happen, especially not in the U.S. Mexico or Canada....at worst, at the very worst the developers will have to change the EULA and maybe put a notice on the log in screens which will do jack and ship to stop purchasing, and even if a couple of countries do the idiotic thing and ban them, the developers will just pull servers in that country....which won't stop folks from those countries from playing, because you will have to effectively force local ISP's to block game developers from countries that still allow it, it's been tried before and never works.

Now I think I'll go spend a hundred or so on crown crates just because I can.

mirta000b16_ESO

Balamoor wrote: »

Really...because two months ago I was in Berlin and two nice Policemen told me not to walk down Soldiner Street because of the color of my skin......what were you saying about freedom?

Well no nice policemen in Berlin have ever told me anything about the colour of my skin, so yeah. Enjoying total freedoms here.

The country that I'm from is highly racist. The developed Europe is highly against racism though and is helping with the refugee crysis. So I would highly doubt your story.

Balamoor

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

Really...because two months ago I was in Berlin and two nice Policemen told me not to walk down Soldiner Street because of the color of my skin......what were you saying about freedom?

Well no nice policemen in Berlin have ever told me anything about the colour of my skin, so yeah. Enjoying total freedoms here.

The country that I'm from is highly racist. The developed Europe is highly against racism though and is helping with the refugee crysis. So I would highly doubt your story.

It doesn't require your belief, there are people in Germany that currently deny the Christmas market massacre of 2016, Germany is anything but free these days and I have been traveling back and forth since 1982.

mirta000b16_ESO

Balamoor wrote: »

It doesn't require your belief, there are people in Germany that currently deny the Christmas market massacre of 2016, Germany is anything but free these days and I have been traveling back and forth since 1982.

There is heavy news censorship yes. Being not from Germany I'm very well aware of that. However you can't say that American news are not skewed.

Vulsahdaal

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

Really...because two months ago I was in Berlin and two nice Policemen told me not to walk down Soldiner Street because of the color of my skin......what were you saying about freedom?

Well no nice policemen in Berlin have ever told me anything about the colour of my skin, so yeah. Enjoying total freedoms here.

The country that I'm from is highly racist. The developed Europe is highly against racism though and is helping with the refugee crysis. So I would highly doubt your story.

I have no idea if their particular story is true or not, but I will say that I doubt that you know or even understand what total freedom is, otherwise you would not be stating that you have it.

Balamoor

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

It doesn't require your belief, there are people in Germany that currently deny the Christmas market massacre of 2016, Germany is anything but free these days and I have been traveling back and forth since 1982.

There is heavy news censorship yes. Being not from Germany I'm very well aware of that. However you can't say that American news are not skewed.

The first six words of your post makes my point.
All Western media is skewed because it shares a unified leftist ideology....you can refer back to my comment on how 1984 should be a cautionary tale not a how to manual.