UPDATED: So... about those Crown Crates in light of Belgium's ruling that they are gambling

Samadhi

Zorvan wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

with regards to the Elder Scrolls community, I blame Skyrim for taking Willpower out of the game as a character stat
and causing a generation to think their power could be attained by chasing dragons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbp9N4BnaI4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nco_kh8xJDs
If I would
could you?

SirAxen

starkerealm wrote: »

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

The sooner these boxes stop, the industry collapses.

Which is, of course, why CDProjekt Red is in such dire straights, with their games failing left and right... oh, wait.

To be fair, they are the exception not the rule. It would be interesting to see what happened.

Lord_Etrigan

mb10 wrote: »

Can you imagine going into Zara and trying to buy a jacket for £100.

The worker then says okay pick a number between 1 and 20.

You pick 18...

Worker: Ah, the number is 6. So we'll give you a pair of socks and if you want to try for the jacket again, its £100.

This is spot on with ESO gambling crates.

BloodWolfe

I hate these "loot boxes" that have entered the gaming industry. I have NEVER supported them in any game and never will! I'll buy some stuff that I like but I won't gamble like this for an almost 0% chance. Microtransactions and these loot/gamble boxes are a plague on the industry.

I find it hilarious though (and a little bit sad) that all the anti-sub people cry that subs aren't good but then spend a ridiculous amount on these things (or at least non-gambling items too but still spending more than if they were to pay for a mandatory subscription before all these microtransactions). Personally, I much preferred the sub-based games/days.

mirta000b16_ESO

SirAxen wrote: »

To be fair, they are the exception not the rule. It would be interesting to see what happened.

Most single player games survive on absolutely no gaming lootboxes and make insane amount of profit. Not every multiplayer title has them even.

For example I do not remember a single gambling lootbox from paradox. Ever. They survive on bite-sized DLCs where there's very little content, but the content is so good that their whole fan base begrudgingly buys it.

Skwor

Lord_Etrigan wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Can you imagine going into Zara and trying to buy a jacket for £100.

The worker then says okay pick a number between 1 and 20.

You pick 18...

Worker: Ah, the number is 6. So we'll give you a pair of socks and if you want to try for the jacket again, its £100.

This is spot on with ESO gambling crates.

You have got to be kidding me, this relates in no way whatsoever. You not gambling to get something you need and there is nothing in this game you NEED.

While this is gambling it is hardly big G Gambling, every crate gives something in return, you always get some type of monetarily valued item in return and none of the items are a basic need.

Honestly if this is a real moral problem for so many why do I never see anyone making the same argument about sporting events.

Doesn't everyone who buys a ticket hope (gamble) that their team will win? When the team does not, have you not then lost the complete monetary value of your purchase on a game of chance? Shouldn't all such events then be banned?

If we are going to employ this silly reasoning let us at least be consistent. Where are all the calls to ban pay for watch sporting events?

reiverx

Skwor wrote: »

Lord_Etrigan wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Can you imagine going into Zara and trying to buy a jacket for £100.

The worker then says okay pick a number between 1 and 20.

You pick 18...

Worker: Ah, the number is 6. So we'll give you a pair of socks and if you want to try for the jacket again, its £100.

This is spot on with ESO gambling crates.

You have got to be kidding me, this relates in no way whatsoever. You not gambling to get something you need and there is nothing in this game you NEED.

While this is gambling it is hardly big G Gambling, every crate gives something in return, you always get some type of monetarily valued item in return and none of the items are a basic need.

Honestly if this is a real moral problem for so many why do I never see anyone making the same argument about sporting events.

Doesn't everyone who buys a ticket hope (gamble) that their team will win? When the team does not, have you not then lost the complete monetary value of your purchase on a game of chance? Shouldn't all such events then be banned?

If we are going to employ this silly reasoning let us at least be consistent. Where are all the calls to ban pay for watch sporting events?

If you place a bet on your team winning then yeah, that is gambling. Otherwise it's not even remotely similar.

Waseem

Looking forward for loot boxes bans.
good old times when developers used to fix their game to make it attractive to players and pay their employees salaries out of it.. Instead this buggy laggy mess of a game where profits are from gambling addicts rather than immersive content and a properly maintained game

Rickter

Thank God for Belgium.

This loot crate craze that started because of some youtubers in Counter Strike have got to go!!

direct micro transactions was a fine-as-is system. I hate that ESO was prostituted out in this way. I dont blame ZOS, i blame their parent company. The crimes they are guilty of are growing. It wont be long before Todd Howard leaves Bethesda just as John Carmack left iD software.

Wrubius_Coronaria

Good news, I hope it will change something about crown crates.
And when I see the microtransaction madness in ESO (costumes that cost more than 1 dlc, houses buyable only with real money, etc...) , I really miss when the game was sub only.

I forgot, I'm sure the droprate of crown crates change in relation to the money we spent in game, and what we have in our collections. (when I see some players who spent more than 1000$ and they're still not able to get what they want, or new players having extremely rare rewards very fast just by buying fews crown crates), it make sense to encourage spending more.

See this :
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/326289/51-crown-crates-zero-apex-rewards/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373783/for-those-of-you-who-feel-the-drop-rate-is-bad-with-crown-crates-225-crown-crates-later/p1

ACESsiggy

Casterial wrote: »

Well.... Quite stupid to try and ban anything in a game in an entire country.

Loot boxes, yes they're gambling. So are bags in-game? If they wanna ban them then the companies like Blizzard may say "Overwatch makes no money here. Close the servers."

Casterial wrote: »

Well.... Quite stupid to try and ban anything in a game in an entire country.

Loot boxes, yes they're gambling. So are bags in-game? If they wanna ban them then the companies like Blizzard may say "Overwatch makes no money here. Close the servers."

Why play OverWatch when there’s a similar if not better free game on Steam called Paladins. Why peeps even thinking about wasting money on that game is beyond me when it lacks any content. A shooter to me is something like Battlefield series. Ok I’m off my soapbox now

But yes, random loot boxes should be cosmetic in nature and shouldn’t give you any extra benefits playing imo...

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Way to go Belgium! I'm so happy to see this. It probably won't gain momentum fast enough to do ESO much good for a while, but at least it will protect future games from the gambling garbage boxes and maybe even encourage them to spend more money on the parts of the game that actually matter. I'm going to go hunt down the e-mail addresses of my local government officials now...

devilfunk

Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight, I've never purchased a Crown Crate, and I never will. If some people are stupid enough to throw their money away buying them just for a small chance to obtain some cosmetic trinket, like a mount, that's on them. I'd sooner set my money on fire in my backyard, it would be more entertaining to watch for sure.

billp_ESO

ZoS' defense will probably be that the gambling crates do not return anything of value. You cannot exchange anything in the crates for real money. So it isn't really gambling, since there is nothing to win.

"Doesn't everyone who buys a ticket hope (gamble) that their team will win? "

What if you bought a ticket, without knowing what team you would get to watch?

Wrubius_Coronaria

devilfunk wrote: »

Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight, I've never purchased a Crown Crate, and I never will. If some people are stupid enough to throw their money away buying them that's on them, I'd sooner set my money on fire in my backyard, it would be more entertaining to watch for sure.

It's not about being stupid.
This kind of predatory and manipulative system has been studied and designed carefuly to encourage people to spent a lot of money. (did you know some compagnies are employing psychologists for design these kind of pervert system?)
And think how the crown crate algorithm has been designed too. (just read many thread about crown crates opening, you will see it's not fair and something is definitly wrong with droprate vs the amount of money spent)

Some peoples are really addict to gambling games, and it's a serious problem for them, and it can hurt them seriously. Just search on internet, there is many articles explaining this.
Just having that in game is a huge problem and even it's just about cosmetic items it's still really dangerous and not moral at all.

Elsonso

billp_ESO wrote: »

ZoS' defense will probably be that the gambling crates do not return anything of value. You cannot exchange anything in the crates for real money. So it isn't really gambling, since there is nothing to win.

That would beg the question, "why are they charging money for them?" Shortly after that, it would be, "why am *I* paying them money for that?"

AnviOfVai

Caitsith wrote: »

devilfunk wrote: »

Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight, I've never purchased a Crown Crate, and I never will. If some people are stupid enough to throw their money away buying them that's on them, I'd sooner set my money on fire in my backyard, it would be more entertaining to watch for sure.

It's not about being stupid.
This kind of predatory and manipulative system has been studied and designed carefuly to encourage people to spent a lot of money. (did you know some compagny are employig psychologists for design these kind of pervert system?)
And think how the crown carte algorithm has been designed too. (just read many thread about crown crates opening, you will see it's not fair and something is definitly wrong with droprate vs the amount of money spent)

Some peoples are really addict to gambling games, and it's a serious problem for them, and it can hurt them seriously. Just search on internet, there is many articles explaining this.
Just having that in game is a huge problem and even it's just about cosmetic items it's still really dangerous and not moral at all.

Yeah I spend loads on them... I don't intend to but it happens. If only I could block them somehow outside of game..that would help a lot.

billp_ESO

lordrichter wrote: »

billp_ESO wrote: »

ZoS' defense will probably be that the gambling crates do not return anything of value. You cannot exchange anything in the crates for real money. So it isn't really gambling, since there is nothing to win.

That would beg the question, "why are they charging money for them?" Shortly after that, it would be, "why am *I* paying them money for that?"

You are paying money for them for entertainment reasons. If you don't enjoy the virtual gambling, then don't play it.

Motherball

I feel bad for people that have legitimate problems with self control. Unfortunately, taking monetary advantage of these people is a cornerstone of modern capitalism.

Turelus

billp_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

billp_ESO wrote: »

ZoS' defense will probably be that the gambling crates do not return anything of value. You cannot exchange anything in the crates for real money. So it isn't really gambling, since there is nothing to win.

That would beg the question, "why are they charging money for them?" Shortly after that, it would be, "why am *I* paying them money for that?"

You are paying money for them for entertainment reasons. If you don't enjoy the virtual gambling, then don't play it.

Or... we as consumers could all agree we don't like being treated like morons, come together and demand fairer treatment and return to the good old days.
You know the days when games companies had to actually make good products to get returns and focused on that accordingly.

Let's stop defending corporate greed because it's fun to argue on the internet and agree that it's a scummy business practice the industry could do without regardless of if people buy them or not.

Maybe if Zenimax Media wasn't spearing all the whales they would spend some money buffing up ZOS where it's needed. You know like those bug fixes & GM's everyone is always crying for (who am I kidding, they'll still not give ZOS money money, need that third yacht).

Dread_Viking

Casterial wrote: »

Well.... Quite stupid to try and ban anything in a game in an entire country.

Loot boxes, yes they're gambling. So are bags in-game? If they wanna ban them then the companies like Blizzard may say "Overwatch makes no money here. Close the servers."

to be fair it is gambling and thy should be under the same rules as gambling this might be the end to crates in premium games and i am good with that i am tired of paying 60+ for a game and then have game progression hide behind micro transactions

VerboseQuips

Motherball wrote: »

I feel bad for people that have legitimate problems with self control. Unfortunately, taking monetary advantage of these people is a cornerstone of modern capitalism.

I would even go as far as to say that those self-control problems are industrially crafted by advertising and medias under capitalism.

VerboseQuips

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Way to go Belgium! I'm so happy to see this. It probably won't gain momentum fast enough to do ESO much good for a while, but at least it will protect future games from the gambling garbage boxes and maybe even encourage them to spend more money on the parts of the game that actually matter. I'm going to go hunt down the e-mail addresses of my local government officials now...

This is the first time since the CETA debate in the Walloon parliament (which unfortunately led to absolutely no result) that I am proud of something my country did. I now hope that the European level will take a similar approach, so that the video games get cleansed from these garbage money-grabbing practices and can revert to what they were always supposed to do, i.e. producing quality content, compelling stories, immersive, artfully rendered worlds and fun gameplay.

dodgehopper_ESO

I'm so torn on this issue. On the one hand I hate these infernal boxes in MMO's - they're part of what sours me to the whole MMO industry. On the other hand I hate the idea of more laws and more governmental regulations.

Farscape76

Personal Responsibility ... each person is ...gasp... responsible for their own actions. It is not governments job to be our mommy and tell us what we can and can't purchase.

If you can't handle gambling seek help but you shouldn't expect a government to make the world safe for you. We don't close bars to protect alcoholics.

Grow the f*** up snowflakes

Dexxadude

I thought of asking this question myself on the forums and found the damn post smack bang on top lol!.
Question is ZoS, will you get rid of this behaviour before your forced or do it willingly since you've noticed how much everyone hates them.

AnviOfVai

Farscape76 wrote: »

Personal Responsibility ... each person is ...gasp... responsible for their own actions. It is not governments job to be our mommy and tell us what we can and can't purchase.

If you can't handle gambling seek help but you shouldn't expect a government to make the world safe for you. We don't close bars to protect alcoholics.

Grow the f*** up snowflakes

Iselin

billp_ESO wrote: »

ZoS' defense will probably be that the gambling crates do not return anything of value. You cannot exchange anything in the crates for real money. So it isn't really gambling, since there is nothing to win.

The three points that everyone in the gaming industry relies on are:

1. Real currency is not used (it's why every game that does this has an intermediary currency such as "Crowns"),
2. The goods obtained have no real world value, and
3. You always get something in the loot box

What the Belgian govt. (and now also a couple of Hawaiian Representatives) is saying is "nice weasling and all, but it walks like a duck and talks like a duck."

Turelus

Farscape76 wrote: »

Personal Responsibility ... each person is ...gasp... responsible for their own actions. It is not governments job to be our mommy and tell us what we can and can't purchase.

If you can't handle gambling seek help but you shouldn't expect a government to make the world safe for you. We don't close bars to protect alcoholics.

Grow the f*** up snowflakes

Actually we kind of should, that's part of the reason we have them. To make laws and enforce them for the protection and betterment of society.

I know it's cool to jump on this bandwagon, but sometimes people want actions taken because it makes things better. ESO would be better without crates, some of us remember the time before the crates.

VerboseQuips

I have some bad news, folks, and I guess I'll take back, once again, my misplaced Belgian pride. It seems that this is fake news arising from a mistranslation of an article written in Dutch, itself based on a misinterpretation of what the Commission of Random Games said, in the context of a declaration of the Belgian Minister of Justice, who indeed said he wished for a European ban on microtransactions in video games (but this is a declaration of intention, not by any means a decision).

As its director said to the press, the Commission of Gambling still hasn't finished its investigations, which aims at determining whether those lootboxes mix addiction and money. A note has been written, but no final conclusion, and the Commission said it would perhaps need an expansion of its juridical competency, as this topic would perhaps require it to become a full-fledged Commission of Games (not just random games) in order to sucessfully accomplish the investigation.

Here is my source, the RTBF being the official French-speaking radio/television in Belgium: https://www.rtbf.be/info/medias/detail_non-la-belgique-n-a-pas-qualifie-star-wars-battlefront-ii-de-jeu-de-hasard?id=9769751