Sotha Sil NAPC Part VII

StaticWave

gabriebe wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Small scale is always superior than large scale because people have to pull their own weight.

Ever heard of Vicious Death?

Yes. Anyone that runs it is either a zergling or a 1 button spamming zerg bomber. Your point is?

gabriebe

My point is that large organized groups are very weak when some members aren't pulling their weight, because they become a danger to everyone when they die. That's how organized large groups can easily kill twice their numbers. If you were in a large group once in a while, you may realize that large groups tend to seek fights with other large groups. Although, I have to say, it is pretty fun to chase some self-proclaimed l77t small scalers just for the fun of zerging them down.

StaticWave

gabriebe wrote: »

My point is that large organized groups are very weak when some members aren't pulling their weight, because they become a danger to everyone when they die. That's how organized large groups can easily kill twice their numbers. If you were in a large group once in a while, you may realize that large groups tend to seek fights with other large groups. Although, I have to say, it is pretty fun to chase some self-proclaimed l77t small scalers just for the fun of zerging them down.

But it does not hurt large groups as much compared to small groups. Lost a dps and a healer? No worries there’s 4 more healers and 9 more dps. In a small group though, losing a healer or a dps puts a lot of burden on the remaining players. The reason many large scale players fail to pull their own weight is because they’re too used to the safeness created by their large group. They aren’t constantly being outnumbered 5 to 1. They stack on crown forming a ball group which makes zerg bombing and destro ult chaining much easier. And organized groups kill twice their numbers because of a well placed negate that shut down enemy healers, or an unsuspected ult bomb. If the healers arent dead or negated, it’s hard to kill a zerg

StaticWave

I’m also specifically talking about outnumbered fights, not even numbers.

gabriebe

VD absolutely hurts large groups more than it does small groups.

I am also not sure why you think that large scale players don't pull their weight. Says who? Based on what? If you encounter them alone in the wild on the group comp setup, yeah, they wont do as well, because small scale fight isn't what they`re fundamentally build for. I can kill 12 people solo on my bomb blade, but I'm pretty screwed 1 v 1 unless the other person is absolutely terrible. Your small scale build is just as situational as anyone else.

Vilestride

gabriebe wrote: »

My point is that large organized groups are very weak when some members aren't pulling their weight, because they become a danger to everyone when they die. That's how organized large groups can easily kill twice their numbers. If you were in a large group once in a while, you may realize that large groups tend to seek fights with other large groups. Although, I have to say, it is pretty fun to chase some self-proclaimed l77t small scalers just for the fun of zerging them down.

Whoa whoa. Are you suggesting people actually talk from experience rather than just speculate about gameplay they never partake in? That's crazy man you're a crazy person.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

jaysins wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

I would say by definition GvGs are organized fights between 8v8 and 24v24 simply because that's what guild groups would comprise. The fact that if a guild only had 4-6 ppl in it and even with 50% subs meaning rosters of 6-9 they still would not even have a guild tabard unlocked I simply can't count those as 'guild vs guild' fights and they would be better off being hosted by a dueling in a tournament style than as a GvG. I'm sure we would be more than happy to fight you in a 12v12 but I doubt you will agree to that citing zerging or something.

A 12v12 would be difficult to do for us because of how few of us there are and getting that many online at the same time is pretty rare. We would have to most likely recruit outside the guild. However, an 8v8 would be much more manageable and fit your stated definition of a GvG so no problems there, so let us know. Also, your answer when he was asking for a 4v4 doesn't make sense because, and maybe you don't know this, but BGs are actually 4v4v4 and not what AGGRO said he was looking for. Just an FYI

I'm back in around 2 weeks hopefully by then you will overcome this difficulty to be able to field 12. We can discuss rules nearer the time.
If you challenge a guild to gvg you should be prepared and able to fight them not expect them to come fight you.
Hope you guys don't disappoint in your attendance always enjoy a fun true gvg fight.

When im back Saturday is best for us can add me @Solar_Breeze

StaticWave

gabriebe wrote: »

VD absolutely hurts large groups more than it does small groups.

I am also not sure why you think that large scale players don't pull their weight. Says who? Based on what? If you encounter them alone in the wild on the group comp setup, yeah, they wont do as well, because small scale fight isn't what they`re fundamentally build for. I can kill 12 people solo on my bomb blade, but I'm pretty screwed 1 v 1 unless the other person is absolutely terrible. Your small scale build is just as situational as anyone else.

When i said it hurts small groups more than large groups, i was talking about people not pulling their weight. Small groups can’t afford to lose players when they are fighting outnumbered because they already have less numbers than their enemies. Losing 2 players in a group of 5 would just make it impossible to fight another larger group. Big groups can lose a few players and still do fine because they have enough people to do damage.

I’m saying large scale players don’t pull their weight because as a small scaler, I’ve seen them get farmed, and have done the farming on a daily basis. A lot of them overextend only to get focused and picked off. They stack together too much and get ult bombed inside a negate. Large scale players make a lot of mistakes that small scalers don’t because they’ve refined their skills enough through frequent outnumbered fights. And when i say outnumbered fights i’m not talking about ult chaining people from stealth. Most small scale players get chased by zergs on the daily, so they learned to los and ult bomb the zerglings that stay too far from their healers. You have to realize there is an aoe cap for each player in this game and a large scale group can get away with it by having multiple destro ults. Like i said, most solo players small scale with their solo open world build, so they do well in both 1v1 and group play. You can kill 12 people on your bomblade because they are potatoes that stack on a resource instead of spreading out, or are too busy fighting another zerg they dont even notice a destro ult is on them. Most players that stack on a resource don’t even pay attention to the screen anyways.

StaticWave

Vilestride wrote: »

gabriebe wrote: »

My point is that large organized groups are very weak when some members aren't pulling their weight, because they become a danger to everyone when they die. That's how organized large groups can easily kill twice their numbers. If you were in a large group once in a while, you may realize that large groups tend to seek fights with other large groups. Although, I have to say, it is pretty fun to chase some self-proclaimed l77t small scalers just for the fun of zerging them down.

Whoa whoa. Are you suggesting people actually talk from experience rather than just speculate about gameplay they never partake in? That's crazy man you're a crazy person.

Except some people have already partaken in both gameplays and decided that one is much better for skill improvement than the other.

Vilestride

StaticWave wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

gabriebe wrote: »

My point is that large organized groups are very weak when some members aren't pulling their weight, because they become a danger to everyone when they die. That's how organized large groups can easily kill twice their numbers. If you were in a large group once in a while, you may realize that large groups tend to seek fights with other large groups. Although, I have to say, it is pretty fun to chase some self-proclaimed l77t small scalers just for the fun of zerging them down.

Whoa whoa. Are you suggesting people actually talk from experience rather than just speculate about gameplay they never partake in? That's crazy man you're a crazy person.

Except some people have already partaken in both gameplays and decided that one is much better for skill improvement than the other.

Sorry, perhaps I am simply ignorant to the fact as I am not aware which large scale guild you are, or were from. Feel free to enlighten me, I am very familiar with all the top guilds past and present so I am sure if you used to play with one I will know who they were. Or do you just mean you jumped in a pick up group once or twice and decided that large scale was trash because you had 23 casuals next to you who probably play the game once a week for 30 minutes?

As many people are trying to point out, everything you have posted in your above comment can be applied to both large and small scale players. The fundamental differences don't actually lie in group size at all, simply the calibre of player participating in it. Yes, there are terrible players who play in large raid groups, but there are also terrible smallscale players.

To respond directly to your personal account of things, I in return have seen some of the best small scale groups in the game get farmed by groups they outnumbered due to primarily a lack of communication and teamwork. But, you're a smart guy, we both know the subjective accounts of individuals does't really amount to any worth when we are trying to achieve an objective concept of an idea don't we?

So don't tell me large scale players don't pull their weight, it simply suggests you have never played in a good raid. simple as that. Sure if you're a group of 12 (ohh no ball group zerg!) fighting 12 other random scrubs you can afford to loose 2 or 3 of your members and be fine. But 12 man raids are either fighting another 12 man raid, in which case every member less is a huge disadvantage, or, they are fighting 40-60 people, stringing them out, using LoS and the all same tactics a 1vXers uses only on a larger scale. What even gives you the idea that large scale players aren't also perpetually fighting outnumbered same as 1vXers? all the top raid guilds I watch play are almost always outnumbered. Again, for the 3rd time, this illustrates the importance of context, something that seems to be continuously ignored.

gabriebe

People not pulling their weight is just as bad in large groups than in small groups, for reasons I have explained before. If you have 1 person in a group of 4 not pulling its weight, it is not as impactful as 6 in a group of 24 exploding over everyone in a cascade reaction.

The small scale LOS run-around-the-tower-forever-on-major-expedition-til-the-mag-toons-are-out-of-stam isn't for everyone. Neither is large group fights. But for each of those playstyles, there are varying degrees of execution. Open world builds are not the same as raid builds. To make a comparison, trials group don't go in with the same setup as Maelstrom Arena, or the other dungeons. They adapt their build to the situation. Put any player in the same situation over and over again and they'll get better at it. Good organized groups with experienced leaders know when and what to ult bomb, and how many ults to save for a 2nd bomb, what ressources they have, when to disperse, when to regroup, etc. Pugs groups will just attack whatever, not stay on crown, have no proper group composition, etc. It's really not that different from small scale in terms of discipline.

I'd also add it's a lot easier to keep morale up by saying you got zerged down and winning some outnumbered fights with a small scale group than losing even-numbered fights with a large group against another similarly sized group. Takes a bit of humility to admit how you *** up as a leader to everyone in your group and keep em motivated for the next fight.

By the way, the ressources bombs don't really work as well as they used to especially since Earthgore. It's more about timing them well when a breach goes down, and people are backed in a corner.

Taylor_MB

Ignoring which is "better" PvP...

It will still take 10 times longer to improve in a raid (even if orgainised) then it will going solo or small man, where you can more clearly and immediately see the consequences of your actions (or inactions).

Spending time in raids will slowly increase your raid skill. Spending time in small man will quickly increase your overall skill.

StaticWave

my friend @jaysins and I had a successful 2v8 vs a DC group today, one of the few things large scalers won’t be able to do

StaticWave

gabriebe wrote: »

People not pulling their weight is just as bad in large groups than in small groups, for reasons I have explained before. If you have 1 person in a group of 4 not pulling its weight, it is not as impactful as 6 in a group of 24 exploding over everyone in a cascade reaction.

The small scale LOS run-around-the-tower-forever-on-major-expedition-til-the-mag-toons-are-out-of-stam isn't for everyone. Neither is large group fights. But for each of those playstyles, there are varying degrees of execution. Open world builds are not the same as raid builds. To make a comparison, trials group don't go in with the same setup as Maelstrom Arena, or the other dungeons. They adapt their build to the situation. Put any player in the same situation over and over again and they'll get better at it. Good organized groups with experienced leaders know when and what to ult bomb, and how many ults to save for a 2nd bomb, what ressources they have, when to disperse, when to regroup, etc. Pugs groups will just attack whatever, not stay on crown, have no proper group composition, etc. It's really not that different from small scale in terms of discipline.

I'd also add it's a lot easier to keep morale up by saying you got zerged down and winning some outnumbered fights with a small scale group than losing even-numbered fights with a large group against another similarly sized group. Takes a bit of humility to admit how you *** up as a leader to everyone in your group and keep em motivated for the next fight.

By the way, the ressources bombs don't really work as well as they used to especially since Earthgore. It's more about timing them well when a breach goes down, and people are backed in a corner.

1 person not pulling his weight in a 4 man group makes the group operate at 75% efficiency. Sure you can use the same ratio for a 24 man group, but what about only 1 or 3 people not pulling their weight in a 24 man group? It would still operate at 96% and 88% efficiency, respectively. See where i’m going? There is larger room for error in a big group because of sheer numbers.

Kiting inside a tower is not the only way to LOS. It’s just a convenient place to gather pugs for an easier ult bomb. When a small group wants to take down a larger group, the best way is to force them stack up in a small pathway. But if you have 4 destro ults in your group's arsenal you don’t have to do that.

StaticWave

Vilestride wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

gabriebe wrote: »

My point is that large organized groups are very weak when some members aren't pulling their weight, because they become a danger to everyone when they die. That's how organized large groups can easily kill twice their numbers. If you were in a large group once in a while, you may realize that large groups tend to seek fights with other large groups. Although, I have to say, it is pretty fun to chase some self-proclaimed l77t small scalers just for the fun of zerging them down.

Whoa whoa. Are you suggesting people actually talk from experience rather than just speculate about gameplay they never partake in? That's crazy man you're a crazy person.

Except some people have already partaken in both gameplays and decided that one is much better for skill improvement than the other.

Sorry, perhaps I am simply ignorant to the fact as I am not aware which large scale guild you are, or were from. Feel free to enlighten me, I am very familiar with all the top guilds past and present so I am sure if you used to play with one I will know who they were. Or do you just mean you jumped in a pick up group once or twice and decided that large scale was trash because you had 23 casuals next to you who probably play the game once a week for 30 minutes?

As many people are trying to point out, everything you have posted in your above comment can be applied to both large and small scale players. The fundamental differences don't actually lie in group size at all, simply the calibre of player participating in it. Yes, there are terrible players who play in large raid groups, but there are also terrible smallscale players.

To respond directly to your personal account of things, I in return have seen some of the best small scale groups in the game get farmed by groups they outnumbered due to primarily a lack of communication and teamwork. But, you're a smart guy, we both know the subjective accounts of individuals does't really amount to any worth when we are trying to achieve an objective concept of an idea don't we?

So don't tell me large scale players don't pull their weight, it simply suggests you have never played in a good raid. simple as that. Sure if you're a group of 12 (ohh no ball group zerg!) fighting 12 other random scrubs you can afford to loose 2 or 3 of your members and be fine. But 12 man raids are either fighting another 12 man raid, in which case every member less is a huge disadvantage, or, they are fighting 40-60 people, stringing them out, using LoS and the all same tactics a 1vXers uses only on a larger scale. What even gives you the idea that large scale players aren't also perpetually fighting outnumbered same as 1vXers? all the top raid guilds I watch play are almost always outnumbered. Again, for the 3rd time, this illustrates the importance of context, something that seems to be continuously ignored.

I grouped with a few large scale guilds in sotha sil.

Please give me names of the small scale groups that got farmed by a less numbered group.

Losing players in an even numbered raid vs raid fight is similar to small scale vs small scale, so I'm not disagreeing on that. I'm specifically talking about outnumbered situations, since that's probably 95% of my gameplay as a small scaler. Large scale groups have more room for error because the bigger the group, the less burden each player has to carry. Losing 1 player in a 4 man group is more detrimental than losing 1 player in a 15 man group. You can use the same tactics as a 1vXer, but the more numbers your group has, the less burden each player in your group has to carry, and the slower your group will improve as a whole. Have you ever been targeted by 7+ people? I have, because there are only 4 targets for the zerglings to kill. It's much harder to target everyone in a 15 man group though, so some players might be targeted, while others won't be at all. This creates an imbalance in skill improvement because the ones that get targeted the most will learn to survive, while the ones that aren't will not. This comes back to my original point: The less numbers you run with, the faster you improve.

Adenoma

Just to be objective, small scalers very rarely are actually fighting heavily outnumbered. They don't pull stunts like zerg squad where they stand in the open and flex their heals while they RP walk on the porch at Nik.

The whole point of LOS is to mitigate damage by making yourself untargetable. Sure, I've had 1vX where I killed 6-8 players, but realistically I'm fighting 2-3 players at a time tops while I scoot around a resource tower.

StaticWave

Adenoma wrote: »

Just to be objective, small scalers very rarely are actually fighting heavily outnumbered. They don't pull stunts like zerg squad where they stand in the open and flex their heals while they RP walk on the porch at Nik.

The whole point of LOS is to mitigate damage by making yourself untargetable. Sure, I've had 1vX where I killed 6-8 players, but realistically I'm fighting 2-3 players at a time tops while I scoot around a resource tower.

Take away half of Zerg Squad’s group members, then tell them to perform the same stunt. Come back to me when they’ve accomplished it.

Small scalers can only take on so many people before sheer enemy numbers break the group, especially in open field.

I’m not disagreeing on the point of LOS, but that’s the only way to fight outnumbered.

StaticWave

https://youtu.be/VlTbzxPuL90 Watch this video, and you large scalers will see what small scalers have to deal with on a daily basis

Adenoma

I'm not sure what you want me to say - take half of zerg squads twelve and they have six people. Of course they can't perform at the same level. I'm not sure what point you think you're making.

esotoon

StaticWave wrote: »

I and my friend Jaisins 2v8 a dc group today, one of the few things large scalers won’t be able to do

Unless you know the skill levels/experience/gear/circumstances of the players involved that kind of statement is meaningless. i.e. A few weeks back, I along with another DC player wiped a 12 man EP group. We both prefer large scale PVP, so does that make us just as good as skilled small scalers and your statement wrong? Or is my statement meaningless and indicative of nothing without further information about the players we were up against?

...

Both sides are trying to compare apple and oranges here. Each style of PVP has it's own unique skills that are intrinsic to that style of play. So trying to claim one is superior than the other is pointless. It's like trying to argue who is the superior athlete: The 100m runner, the middle distance runner or the long distance runner. They all involve running, they all compete in the same stadium, and you can make a case for all of them being superior. But the argument is just as pointless because at the end of the day they are all different disciplines, that require similar but different skill sets in order to excel.

The notion that a player can't be good at (or enjoy) more than one style of PVP is equally as nonsensical. Why not? What exactly is stopping someone who is good at large scale PVP also being good at small scale or solo PVP (or vice versa)? If anything the non-cp campaign encourages players to try out and (hopefully) become good at more than one discipline, because it is so easy to go from a build set up for large scale play to a build set up for small scale or solo play. In many cases you literally only have to change gear sets and swap some skills, rather than have to respec anything.

A_G_G_R_O

This entire line in this thread is pointless . No one of note is in sotha anymore anyways, take it to Shor.

A_G_G_R_O

Also if you want to field an 8v8 Drac GvG message me @AGG.RO.
Since I issued the challenge i’ll Set the rule. If that is too low of a number, then decline it.
Don’t bring my attendance or unwillingness to fight into it, Our guild will hit any group in open world regardless, I am just trying to compare apples to apples as you would say.

Adenoma

Please record and post. I would be interested to see.

Vilestride

esotoon wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I and my friend Jaisins 2v8 a dc group today, one of the few things large scalers won’t be able to do

Unless you know the skill levels/experience/gear/circumstances of the players involved that kind of statement is meaningless. i.e. A few weeks back, I along with another DC player wiped a 12 man EP group. We both prefer large scale PVP, so does that make us just as good as skilled small scalers and your statement wrong? Or is my statement meaningless and indicative of nothing without further information about the players we were up against?

...

Both sides are trying to compare apple and oranges here. Each style of PVP has it's own unique skills that are intrinsic to that style of play. So trying to claim one is superior than the other is pointless. It's like trying to argue who is the superior athlete: The 100m runner, the middle distance runner or the long distance runner. They all involve running, they all compete in the same stadium, and you can make a case for all of them being superior. But the argument is just as pointless because at the end of the day they are all different disciplines, that require similar but different skill sets in order to excel.

The notion that a player can't be good at (or enjoy) more than one style of PVP is equally as nonsensical. Why not? What exactly is stopping someone who is good at large scale PVP also being good at small scale or solo PVP (or vice versa)? If anything the non-cp campaign encourages players to try out and (hopefully) become good at more than one discipline, because it is so easy to go from a build set up for large scale play to a build set up for small scale or solo play. In many cases you literally only have to change gear sets and swap some skills, rather than have to respec anything.

This.

StaticWave wrote: »

my friend @jaysins and I had a successful 2v8 vs a DC group today, one of the few things large scalers won’t be able to do

You keep talking about ratio's but then not applying them. Here for example, yes, large scale raids often fight and win 12 v 48. And again, you saying loosing one guy in 12 man is less than loosing 1 guy in a 4 man. Yes that statement is correct, but your ratio is not, loosing 1 guy in a 4 man is equivalent to loosing 3 people in a 12 man, see what I am saying? And seeing how the number of enemies you fight in large groups scales in the same way, yes, it's equally as detrimental to loose those members.

Like I said, I don't think anyone here is trying to quash small scale, simply offer equal legitimacy to both sides of the conversation. I came in here, saw large group getting nothing but bashed and wanted to offer my thoughts, I'm not here to say small scale is bad, I am here to make the same point @esotoon did.

Adenoma

@Vilestride , I've already told @esotoon to quit thinking rationally and being reasonable.

A_G_G_R_O

@Adenoma SMH

Malibulove

This is a bizarre discussion, most people just run around and pvp without all the weird politics.

The argument doesn't even make sense in the context of Sotha. I'm on most mornings and small groups play for Ulty dumps just as hard as any of the guilds do, afterall why would you want to be in a group if you weren't coordinating?

Don't get me wrong I can respect that say B-Team runs 6-8 instead of LoM running 20-24, but when you're solo and the entire group is ulty dumping... it's the exact same flippin' tactic.

Adenoma

No, no. It's different, superior, and smaller.

usmcjdking

Malibulove wrote: »

This is a bizarre discussion, most people just run around and pvp without all the weird politics.

The argument doesn't even make sense in the context of Sotha. I'm on most mornings and small groups play for Ulty dumps just as hard as any of the guilds do, afterall why would you want to be in a group if you weren't coordinating?

Don't get me wrong I can respect that say B-Team runs 6-8 instead of LoM running 20-24, but when you're solo and the entire group is ulty dumping... it's the exact same flippin' tactic.

I personally like my strategy. Try to help pugs not get farmed...

But then get farmed because the pugs got farmed anyways.

jaysins

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

jaysins wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

I would say by definition GvGs are organized fights between 8v8 and 24v24 simply because that's what guild groups would comprise. The fact that if a guild only had 4-6 ppl in it and even with 50% subs meaning rosters of 6-9 they still would not even have a guild tabard unlocked I simply can't count those as 'guild vs guild' fights and they would be better off being hosted by a dueling in a tournament style than as a GvG. I'm sure we would be more than happy to fight you in a 12v12 but I doubt you will agree to that citing zerging or something.

A 12v12 would be difficult to do for us because of how few of us there are and getting that many online at the same time is pretty rare. We would have to most likely recruit outside the guild. However, an 8v8 would be much more manageable and fit your stated definition of a GvG so no problems there, so let us know. Also, your answer when he was asking for a 4v4 doesn't make sense because, and maybe you don't know this, but BGs are actually 4v4v4 and not what AGGRO said he was looking for. Just an FYI

I'm back in around 2 weeks hopefully by then you will overcome this difficulty to be able to field 12. We can discuss rules nearer the time.
If you challenge a guild to gvg you should be prepared and able to fight them not expect them to come fight you.
Hope you guys don't disappoint in your attendance always enjoy a fun true gvg fight.

When im back Saturday is best for us can add me @Solar_Breeze

That's just a cop out and a tactic used to try and avoid us. He stated that he thought a GvG is 8v8 or more and I'm fine with and agreed to the 8v8 number. If we say we want to do a GvG but you throw us a number that you know is more than the size of our guild it just shows you don't have enough confidence in your guild and group to go against us in a video game so you've already started making excuses. You can easily down size your group, much easier than we can find new people to play with and bring them up to speed in such a manner to really test which play-style creates better players, and it's a number that will be pretty unfamiliar to both sides. If you want to run from a fair fight be my guest, but if you need to make excuses or back down because you're afraid of losing at a video game you might be taking it too seriously.