Sotha Sil NAPC Part VII

Sylphie

I reckon the best smallscale happens when the maps even since people actually respond to resource captures and there's people running inbetween transits. When AD owned most of the map, it took flipping all three resources at a keep to get any action and it usually resulted in 10+ ads coming to zerg my duo.

That said, I had some amazing outnumbered fights with my 2-4man against the AD zerg that were gate camping us. Downside is that it took flagging one of our tri-keeps to actually get them to come.

DeadlyRecluse

Sylphie wrote: »

I reckon the best smallscale happens when the maps even.

I'd argue that the best PvP of any scale--small, medium, large--happens when the map is even (or at least even-ish). Sometimes "good" largescale PvP nights involve wrecking that even-ness, but you don't get great raidplay on monochromatic map, either.

WhitePawPrints

Sylphie wrote: »

I reckon the best smallscale happens when the maps even since people actually respond to resource captures and there's people running inbetween transits. When AD owned most of the map, it took flipping all three resources at a keep to get any action and it usually resulted in 10+ ads coming to zerg my duo.

That said, I had some amazing outnumbered fights with my 2-4man against the AD zerg that were gate camping us. Downside is that it took flagging one of our tri-keeps to actually get them to come.

I think most veteran players (players that have actually been around a long time) don't bother when gates, or one sided campaigns. There's just no action, and the only way to create some is sieging. Nobody likes to siege.

A_G_G_R_O

Nah I can think of an X-man obsessed player that can do nothing but siege in PvP. But you are mostly correct.

Sylphie

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

Nah I can think of an X-man obsessed player that can do nothing but siege in PvP. But you are mostly correct.

S H O T S

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Sylphie wrote: »

I reckon the best smallscale happens when the maps even since people actually respond to resource captures and there's people running inbetween transits. When AD owned most of the map, it took flipping all three resources at a keep to get any action and it usually resulted in 10+ ads coming to zerg my duo.

That said, I had some amazing outnumbered fights with my 2-4man against the AD zerg that were gate camping us. Downside is that it took flagging one of our tri-keeps to actually get them to come.

I think most veteran players (players that have actually been around a long time) don't bother when gates, or one sided campaigns. There's just no action, and the only way to create some is sieging. Nobody likes to siege.

Not really a veteran since I've only been playing on and off for a year or so but being gate camped is outnumbered pvp paradise. Sure we end up dying a lot since it's usually a 2v12+ but they're usually bad players and die to coordinated ultis.

I agree though that it is a pain having to flag one of our trikeeps to actually get them to come out, if we just take the resource they'll just sit on the walls and wait for reinforcements.

gameswithaspoon

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

..... Nobody likes to siege.

Spoon loves to play "Knock Knock."

Spoon and Bashu played "Knock Knock" all morning. Spoon even came to the door with her Scroll.

Congrats on your Emp Bashu!! Hope you had fun!!

Zander98

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

Nah I can think of an X-man obsessed player that can do nothing but siege in PvP. But you are mostly correct.

It is following an ancient tradition, first refined by the infamous Zapfino, her who rode upon a beast made of nightmares.

That the tradition continues is the greatest boon ep has on the server. I can't tell you how many times I, a middling player at best, would jump around in pride at a beautiful 1vX against 3 or 4 players. Conveniently forgetting to notice the constant cold fire explosions streaming around me.

It could perhaps be the best quality of the "path of the coldfire". It allows us average players to lie to ourselves about our play ability.

A_G_G_R_O

I am not a fan of large scale pvp but I understand it’s needed for the map and some players enjoy it. I am proud see the rough riders not shying from fights and pressing the attack despite the map situation, good work DC.

Sylphie

Played a bit of Vivec this week since Sotha is pre much dead by the time I get back from work. You sure can pull some crazy stuff there like 20k merciless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZiAtN5IX-w

Joshlenoir

Small man PvP gained popularity when smart people in cyrodill realized
- there's little incentive or reward to buy siege and take keeps
- make MORE AP when you don't siege keeps
- there's absolutely no reward from being on the winning side of the campaign
- PvP rewards have nothing to do with how many keeps your group can capture, how many scrolls you can run, or how long you hold EMP
- PvP rewards are 100% AP earn based
- the best AP to make is by constantly killing players at objectives for offensive and defensive ticks, or large amounts in open field for quick AP

Small scale PvP doing your own thing will always be a superior playstyle to the traditional 15+ man group constantly at keeps trying to work the map because
- there will almost always be other randoms and pugs at the keeps you try and take, inevitably diluting the importance of how your group performs. If not, you're probably taking an empty keep for the most part. This obviously isn't always the case however.
- the smaller your group Is the more your mistakes / issues with your build are revealed and the higher incentive there is for you to hold your own, pull your weight and perform up to par with everyone else
- small groups literally cannot work without an adequate amount of communication , movement, coordination and group synergy. All things that are learned after really playing and understanding this game
- small groups don't have the luxury of having multiple of every type of playstyle. For example, big groups can afford to have multiple tank healers, DPS, bomb blades, "snipers", etc.

Lastly, being in a smaller group simply requires a better understanding of how to build your class to be optimal and how to be efficient in a certain playstyle. The irony of PvP (for some reason) is the players who don't play the map as it's intended get the best rewards, while playing the least for the most part, and also saving the most AP.

usmcjdking

Joshlenoir wrote: »

Small man PvP gained popularity when smart people in cyrodill realized
- there's little incentive or reward to buy siege and take keeps
- make MORE AP when you don't siege keeps
- there's absolutely no reward from being on the winning side of the campaign
- PvP rewards have nothing to do with how many keeps your group can capture, how many scrolls you can run, or how long you hold EMP
- PvP rewards are 100% AP earn based
- the best AP to make is by constantly killing players at objectives for offensive and defensive ticks, or large amounts in open field for quick AP

Small scale PvP doing your own thing will always be a superior playstyle to the traditional 15+ man group constantly at keeps trying to work the map because
- there will almost always be other randoms and pugs at the keeps you try and take, inevitably diluting the importance of how your group performs. If not, you're probably taking an empty keep for the most part. This obviously isn't always the case however.
- the smaller your group Is the more your mistakes / issues with your build are revealed and the higher incentive there is for you to hold your own, pull your weight and perform up to par with everyone else
- small groups literally cannot work without an adequate amount of communication , movement, coordination and group synergy. All things that are learned after really playing and understanding this game
- small groups don't have the luxury of having multiple of every type of playstyle. For example, big groups can afford to have multiple tank healers, DPS, bomb blades, "snipers", etc.

Lastly, being in a smaller group simply requires a better understanding of how to build your class to be optimal and how to be efficient in a certain playstyle. The irony of PvP (for some reason) is the players who don't play the map as it's intended get the best rewards, while playing the least for the most part, and also saving the most AP.

Errrrr...

This is factually and historically inaccurate. I hate to bust your chops but this just isn't how or why the cookie crumbled.

Small Man PVP has always been relatively popular. It has seemingly gained popularity in recent times not because of anything you listed but because the relative PVP population of large groups and glory zergs has shrunken compared to that of the small man. Small man groups and players have more personal reason to remain invested in the game and PVP, while large group and glory zergers have very little emotional investment into PVP. We have passed the game's proverbial perihelion and are not creating more casual PVPers than we are losing due to a host of developer and player-based issues.

Small scale PvP doing your own thing will always be a superior playstyle to the traditional 15+ man group constantly at keeps trying to work the map because

This is massively subjective and based on nothing but your perspective. Small groups and large groups have vastly different objectives, as you've stated - despite using the same general terms. Just as large groups don't have the builds optimized to properly solo or fight as a fractured group, small groups don't have the builds optimized to mow down 30 players in seconds. This is a conscious decision made by those group operators - not some theoretical constraint put on your group by powers unknown. You'll have to do a bit better than that to justify why small scale is better than large scale or extra-large scale.

usmcjdking

Zander98 wrote: »

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

Nah I can think of an X-man obsessed player that can do nothing but siege in PvP. But you are mostly correct.

It is following an ancient tradition, first refined by the infamous Zapfino, her who rode upon a beast made of nightmares.

That the tradition continues is the greatest boon ep has on the server. I can't tell you how many times I, a middling player at best, would jump around in pride at a beautiful 1vX against 3 or 4 players. Conveniently forgetting to notice the constant cold fire explosions streaming around me.

It could perhaps be the best quality of the "path of the coldfire". It allows us average players to lie to ourselves about our play ability.

Zapfino plays with graph paper and a freaking sextant.

Adenoma

@usmcjdking , get that logic and objectivity out of here.

lol @ small scale being "superior."

esotoon

Joshlenoir wrote: »

Small scale PvP doing your own thing will always be a superior playstyle to the traditional 15+ man group constantly at keeps trying to work the map because
- there will almost always be other randoms and pugs at the keeps you try and take, inevitably diluting the importance of how your group performs. If not, you're probably taking an empty keep for the most part. This obviously isn't always the case however.
- the smaller your group Is the more your mistakes / issues with your build are revealed and the higher incentive there is for you to hold your own, pull your weight and perform up to par with everyone else
- small groups literally cannot work without an adequate amount of communication , movement, coordination and group synergy. All things that are learned after really playing and understanding this game
- small groups don't have the luxury of having multiple of every type of playstyle. For example, big groups can afford to have multiple tank healers, DPS, bomb blades, "snipers", etc.

Lastly, being in a smaller group simply requires a better understanding of how to build your class to be optimal and how to be efficient in a certain playstyle. The irony of PvP (for some reason) is the players who don't play the map as it's intended get the best rewards, while playing the least for the most part, and also saving the most AP.

Real men fight solo with no armor, no weapons, and just the tools they were born with. Anything beyond that is casual as f...riday!

Adenoma

IMO, I would think that coordinating groups like Zerg Squad or Drac is a lot more demanding than small scale (which is ambiguously more than one, less than zerg). By the fights they seek, I guess those are small scale because they maintain similar ratios of group:opponent.

Small scale by what I've experienced with some folks on here is just loose proximity play where you're more or less soloing around someone else and every once in a while you actually focus damage.

Most of the folks I've talked to who are involved with those organized guilds have a heck of a lot better understanding of game and class mechanics than any small-scale player I've chatted with in Sotha. That said, it's a different environment in which they're trying to function. I would argue that those guild groups are juggling more variables in their decision making than most small scale groups given the volume of opponents.

Joshlenoir

You don't have to agree with me, but the facts are the facts. The best players in the game pvp wise all small scale. It's factually incorrect that small scale pvp is simply low numbers versus low numbers. Small scalers are almost always fighting greater numbers.
Small scaling IS superior, whether you like to admit it or not, it makes players improve the best and it really forces them to focus on creating better builds. Many people I know that play with the big name "large scale pvp guilds" end up leaving after a while because they realize the mind numbing form of gameplay it is. Pitting players that play in 24 mans versus people that play in 5 mans in any sort of even numbered pvp scenario, the latter will almost always win.

esotoon wrote: »

Joshlenoir wrote: »

Small scale PvP doing your own thing will always be a superior playstyle to the traditional 15+ man group constantly at keeps trying to work the map because
- there will almost always be other randoms and pugs at the keeps you try and take, inevitably diluting the importance of how your group performs. If not, you're probably taking an empty keep for the most part. This obviously isn't always the case however.
- the smaller your group Is the more your mistakes / issues with your build are revealed and the higher incentive there is for you to hold your own, pull your weight and perform up to par with everyone else
- small groups literally cannot work without an adequate amount of communication , movement, coordination and group synergy. All things that are learned after really playing and understanding this game
- small groups don't have the luxury of having multiple of every type of playstyle. For example, big groups can afford to have multiple tank healers, DPS, bomb blades, "snipers", etc.

Lastly, being in a smaller group simply requires a better understanding of how to build your class to be optimal and how to be efficient in a certain playstyle. The irony of PvP (for some reason) is the players who don't play the map as it's intended get the best rewards, while playing the least for the most part, and also saving the most AP.

Real men fight solo with no armor, no weapons, and just the tools they were born with. Anything beyond that is casual as f...riday!

Funny exaggeration of what I was saying. I'm implying that the less help you have in pvp the better of a player it makes you, it's not a hard concept to grasp.

Adenoma wrote: »

IMO, I would think that coordinating groups like Zerg Squad or Drac is a lot more demanding than small scale (which is ambiguously more than one, less than zerg). By the fights they seek, I guess those are small scale because they maintain similar ratios of group:opponent.

Small scale by what I've experienced with some folks on here is just loose proximity play where you're more or less soloing around someone else and every once in a while you actually focus damage.

Most of the folks I've talked to who are involved with those organized guilds have a heck of a lot better understanding of game and class mechanics than any small-scale player I've chatted with in Sotha. That said, it's a different environment in which they're trying to function. I would argue that those guild groups are juggling more variables in their decision making than most small scale groups given the volume of opponents.

Once again, false. If by "better understanding of the game" you mean sieging and telling everyone to "push" and "stack on crown" sure. Like I've said before, when it comes to a fundamental understanding of any given class and knowing how to fight larger as well as even numbers with a coordinated group, small scalers take the cake. Also as far as your opinion is on what constitutes "a good understanding of PvP" I'll have to pass on that.

Joshlenoir

Adenoma wrote: »

@usmcjdking , get that logic and objectivity out of here.

lol @ small scale being "superior."

Except small scale PvP is superior, most people can't do it, so I understand why you have those feelings towards it.

Joshlenoir

usmcjdking wrote: »

Joshlenoir wrote: »

Small man PvP gained popularity when smart people in cyrodill realized
- there's little incentive or reward to buy siege and take keeps
- make MORE AP when you don't siege keeps
- there's absolutely no reward from being on the winning side of the campaign
- PvP rewards have nothing to do with how many keeps your group can capture, how many scrolls you can run, or how long you hold EMP
- PvP rewards are 100% AP earn based
- the best AP to make is by constantly killing players at objectives for offensive and defensive ticks, or large amounts in open field for quick AP

Small scale PvP doing your own thing will always be a superior playstyle to the traditional 15+ man group constantly at keeps trying to work the map because
- there will almost always be other randoms and pugs at the keeps you try and take, inevitably diluting the importance of how your group performs. If not, you're probably taking an empty keep for the most part. This obviously isn't always the case however.
- the smaller your group Is the more your mistakes / issues with your build are revealed and the higher incentive there is for you to hold your own, pull your weight and perform up to par with everyone else
- small groups literally cannot work without an adequate amount of communication , movement, coordination and group synergy. All things that are learned after really playing and understanding this game
- small groups don't have the luxury of having multiple of every type of playstyle. For example, big groups can afford to have multiple tank healers, DPS, bomb blades, "snipers", etc.

Lastly, being in a smaller group simply requires a better understanding of how to build your class to be optimal and how to be efficient in a certain playstyle. The irony of PvP (for some reason) is the players who don't play the map as it's intended get the best rewards, while playing the least for the most part, and also saving the most AP.

Errrrr...

This is factually and historically inaccurate. I hate to bust your chops but this just isn't how or why the cookie crumbled.

Small Man PVP has always been relatively popular. It has seemingly gained popularity in recent times not because of anything you listed but because the relative PVP population of large groups and glory zergs has shrunken compared to that of the small man. Small man groups and players have more personal reason to remain invested in the game and PVP, while large group and glory zergers have very little emotional investment into PVP. We have passed the game's proverbial perihelion and are not creating more casual PVPers than we are losing due to a host of developer and player-based issues.

Small scale PvP doing your own thing will always be a superior playstyle to the traditional 15+ man group constantly at keeps trying to work the map because

This is massively subjective and based on nothing but your perspective. Small groups and large groups have vastly different objectives, as you've stated - despite using the same general terms. Just as large groups don't have the builds optimized to properly solo or fight as a fractured group, small groups don't have the builds optimized to mow down 30 players in seconds. This is a conscious decision made by those group operators - not some theoretical constraint put on your group by powers unknown. You'll have to do a bit better than that to justify why small scale is better than large scale or extra-large scale.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. Small scale PvP has become popular based on a myriad of factors, more than what I just named. The introduction of battlegrounds (which unfortunately was implemented poorly) was supposed to appeal to the "small scale" group of players. 0 big name "large scale" pvp guilds can operate in that environment because you don't have the luxury of relying on dozens of other players.
lastly, any person I know that can operate in a small group can easily operate in a large group, but vice versa isn't correct. As far as your reason that "small groups have more of a reason to be invested in this game", thats absolutely false. I'd argue that small scalers and large scale pvpers have just as many players that range from casuals to hard core pvpers. Mothers, fathers, teenagers, young adults, etc. All small scale, and "zerg" as well. Small scalers aren't just a bunch of hardcore elitist PvPers but can also play the game casually as well. It just depends on who actually wants to improve in pvp and have somewhat of a challenge whenever they decide to play in cyrodiil. Once again, we're just going to have to agree to disagree because we clearly see differently on this topic.

Adenoma

Sotha Sil: where words like "objective" and "subjective" aren't understood and the campaign's emptying of those that do.

Adenoma

Also, if you small scale wipe zerg squad or Drac with your skills then you'll have my vote that you small scalers are superior.

esotoon

Joshlenoir wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

Real men fight solo with no armor, no weapons, and just the tools they were born with. Anything beyond that is casual as f...riday!

Funny exaggeration of what I was saying. I'm implying that the less help you have in pvp the better of a player it makes you, it's not a hard concept to grasp.

No Josh, it is you who have failed to grasp what I was saying. You just said "the less help you have in PVP the better it makes you". So by that theory, to a solo player, your need to have support of other players in a small team, makes you equally as less skillful compared to them, as you claim those who play large scale are to you.

My original point, that seems to have flown over your head, is that unless you are paired down to the absolute minimum (1v1 with no other help except your own talents/ability), anything else is just drawing lines in the sand to fluff your own ego.

A_G_G_R_O

Gross incompetence on a mass scale. But I will agree with you @Adenoma that running a large scale group would take more effort. It sure must take a lot of work to get players that braindead to work as a cohesive unit. I can only imagine the headaches of dealing with a backpedaling squad of potatoes. I am not sure what good small scalers on Sotha you talk to, because you haven't talked with anyone of merit I have seen.

A 20 man group isn't wiping a group of 100. But I have seen a 4 man group bust a 20 man zerg. So by ratios that are not subjective, one is superior. If I could make a 24 man group of the best small scalers, they would literally murder any coordinated pugtato guild. Why? Because beta soft potatoes hide in their numbers and the excuse of "HUE HUE im running a group build bro". I am just ....

no
no
no

I cannot support any of this preposterous garbage. Other than how hard is must be to lead a zerg group due to the nature of cringey remarks of "get packed up" uttered by these beta zerglings.

Joshlenoir

Adenoma wrote: »

Also, if you small scale wipe zerg squad or Drac with your skills then you'll have my vote that you small scalers are superior.

yes because 6 people are going to wipe 24 (edited for sarcasm)
I'm talking about a strong 6 man group wiping 10-12 people, it happens a lot.
Expecting a handful of players to wipe a full raid of players is not only delusional but is twisting my words as that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying small scalers are better players because of the environment that they play in, and when it comes to a fight that involves SIMILAR numbers they will usually always win, as well as being outnumbered (depending on how large of course). If these FACTS are something you refuse to comprehend that's on you.

Joshlenoir

Adenoma wrote: »

Also, if you small scale wipe zerg squad or Drac with your skills then you'll have my vote that you small scalers are superior.

Aw..
Cmon Adenoma. I thought we've already stopped beating the dead horse that is the "boohoo you killed the campaign" accusations.

A_G_G_R_O

Just combine Kyne with Sotha, too much of the care bear population is hiding in lvl* 36 gold gear developing a self assured sense of skill.

esotoon

Joshlenoir wrote: »

I'm saying. I'm saying small scalers are better players because of the environment that they play in, and when it comes to a fight that involves SIMILAR numbers they will usually always win, as well as being outnumbered (depending on how large of course). If these FACTS are something you refuse to comprehend that's on you.

So "factually" small scalers are better than people who play large scale? Which means "factually" small scalers know they will beat all but the best large scalers with ease, unless they hit by a large zerg. Doesn't that also imply that "factually", those small scalers who sit at resources next to keeps to fight those lesser players are a bunch of cowards? After all, if you know you are better, if you know you are going to win, where is the sport? Surely a truly skilled small scaler, that's confident in their own abilities, would far rather be somewhere else fighting players that are 'factually' as good or better than them? Otherwise, those small scalers just come off sounding like a fox in a hen house shouting about how great a predator they are for killing all the chickens.

Kartalin

Joshlenoir wrote: »

Adenoma wrote: »

Also, if you small scale wipe zerg squad or Drac with your skills then you'll have my vote that you small scalers are superior.

yes because 6 people are going to wipe 24 (edited for sarcasm)

FWIW, Drac tends to run less than 16 — usually 14 or 15. More challenging than you realize even with even numbers. That style doesn’t really fly in Sotha though, it’s too dependent on CP. But the application of the style is similar to small scale, hit and run tactics, string out larger groups to take chunks out of them a bit at a time using line of sight and choke points, and stay constantly mobile. It’s more of an extrapolation of small scale style applied to medium sized zergs to fight larger zergs, 24+.

DeadlyRecluse

I am more than willing to accept the mantle of responsibility of having killed the campaign if it allows us to move on, collectively.

On-topic (or on the current topic, anyway):

1. Small scale has been popular since beta. May have been popular in alpha, too, idk. I'd argue that many people came to this game planning to participate in small scale PvP based on their previous experiences in other MMOs (DAoC is the most obvious/common "parent" MMO to organized PvP in this game, but there are others).
2. There hasn't been actual, organized raidplay in Sotha (or Azuras) in a looooong time. There's barely any left in the game at all. Most "large scale" guilds are relatively casual, with a very few exceptions. This was not always the case.
3. Old school, large scale PvP at a high level was absolutely as cutting edge in terms of gameplay, builds, and mechanics as any other scale. Again, that particular combination of seriousness and scale doesn't exist anymore outside of a few exceptions--but in the first few years of the game you had guilds running groups of 16-24 using very finely tuned strategies, builds, etc. If you are comparing average "small scale" today to average "large scale" it seems fair to say that small scale players/guilds tend to be "better," but it's as much a matter of priorities as it is anything else.
4. Pugzerging is an entirely different animal and doesn't merit comment.
5. Playing the map has never been as profitable, in terms of AP, as it is right now. You used to make zero AP "playing the map" and tons of AP just chasing kills. Now you can make 60k AP per hour while not fighting players (or even while avoiding players). I would argue that this is not healthy, but thankfully it's boring enough that not a ton of people do it.

usmcjdking

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

Gross incompetence on a mass scale. But I will agree with you @Adenoma that running a large scale group would take more effort. It sure must take a lot of work to get players that braindead to work as a cohesive unit. I can only imagine the headaches of dealing with a backpedaling squad of potatoes. I am not sure what good small scalers on Sotha you talk to, because you haven't talked with anyone of merit I have seen.

A 20 man group isn't wiping a group of 100. But I have seen a 4 man group bust a 20 man zerg. So by ratios that are not subjective, one is superior. If I could make a 24 man group of the best small scalers, they would literally murder any coordinated pugtato guild. Why? Because beta soft potatoes hide in their numbers and the excuse of "HUE HUE im running a group build bro". I am just ....

no
no
no

I cannot support any of this preposterous garbage. Other than how hard is must be to lead a zerg group due to the nature of cringey remarks of "get packed up" uttered by these beta zerglings.

There are a dozen+ youtube videos of Pact Militia raids 1-7 getting destroyed by VE/Fantasia/Venatus.

Joshlenoir

usmcjdking wrote: »

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

Gross incompetence on a mass scale. But I will agree with you @Adenoma that running a large scale group would take more effort. It sure must take a lot of work to get players that braindead to work as a cohesive unit. I can only imagine the headaches of dealing with a backpedaling squad of potatoes. I am not sure what good small scalers on Sotha you talk to, because you haven't talked with anyone of merit I have seen.

A 20 man group isn't wiping a group of 100. But I have seen a 4 man group bust a 20 man zerg. So by ratios that are not subjective, one is superior. If I could make a 24 man group of the best small scalers, they would literally murder any coordinated pugtato guild. Why? Because beta soft potatoes hide in their numbers and the excuse of "HUE HUE im running a group build bro". I am just ....

no
no
no

I cannot support any of this preposterous garbage. Other than how hard is must be to lead a zerg group due to the nature of cringey remarks of "get packed up" uttered by these beta zerglings.

There are a dozen+ youtube videos of Pact Militia raids 1-7 getting destroyed by VE/Fantasia/Venatus.

Without the help of other pugs / siege / in a clear cut battle ? Please. PLEASE link this to me.